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Gima
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On 1/31/2017 at 8:10 AM, Jotari said:

A crossbowman is called an Arbalist. Just throwing that out there.

Synonyms exist. I presume that if Arbalist is the technical term then it only became that in modern times. I can call the class whatever I want, and "Crossbowman" sounds more like a first-tier class than "Arbalist". Might use Arbalist for a promotion of Warrior or something. (As of now, Ballistician is planned as the alternate promotion of Sniper, counter to Marksman.)

 

Edit: Made some major edits. Too tired to describe the balance right now. Maybe later.

Edited by Gima
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I bet the few of you who remembered this never expected it to be complete. Alas, I was struck by Sudden Onset Fan Syndrome, and so I decided to complete this. I've drastically cut down on pretty much everything, so it basically is another Sacred Stones rehash now, but at least it's a good class list?

There are some concepts here behind the class list which I will now explain.

  • The Avatar is now a trainee. Storywise, the Avatar does not begin with any experience in combat or strategy, hence why they are a trainee and need to go through a tutorial. This is the same position that the Avatar filled in the previous games, but now that is reflected in gameplay. It is also worth noting that the player is not required to use their Avatar: if the player does not want to go through the effort of training themselves and instead choose to stay on the sidelines and give orders, go ahead.
  • Soldiers are once again a playable class.
  • Daggers in this game combine attributes of Shuriken and Knives in previous games. They can have a range of 1 square or 1 to 2 squares, and inflict status effects upon hit. In addition, they are Blue, as Daggers were in Fates.
  • The Anima/Light/Dark split returns. However, neither Magic Triangle returns, nor do Fire, Thunder, and Wind. The only Wind spell in the game is still effective against flying units, but that is the only trace of the former Anima split to remain.
  • Crossbows return. They’re more powerful but less accurate than regular bows.
  • Bows and Tomes continue to exist as part of the Red/Green/Blue triangle introduced in Fates. However, only the Sorcerer gets access to more than one type of Tome, and only the Sniper gets access to both Bows and Crossbows. The Faire and Breaker skills remain the same. Effectively, there are now weapon subtypes.
  • Gender restrictions are now completely null. Priests and War Monks are now Clerics and War Clerics, and the only reason Dancer isn’t open to any gender is because there is only one Dancer in the first place.
  • As a result, “Pegasus Knights” no longer exist. They’ve been replaced by “Sky Knights” who ride birds, but have basically the same stats and role. Thus skirting the whole issue about why men men can ride pegasi now.
  • There’s another reason for this. Unit types have been added to the Weapon Triangle, now known as the Color Triangle. Beast-types are Red, Dragon-types are Green, and Bird-types are Blue. Cavaliers are Beast-types, while Sky Knights are Bird-types and Wyvern Riders and Manakete are Dragon-types. Two new classes will also be added who fill the role of Beast-type and Bird-type Stone users, Wilder and Aves.
  • Monsters return, as does summoning. The Summoner class, a promotion of the Dark Mage class, is the only class that can summon monsters.
  • Dismounting returns, and functions as it does in Thracia 776, save that dismounted units are not forced to use swords.
  • Bows can now fire one step ahead, like any other weapon type.
  • Knights can now move at the same pace as any other unit of infantry.
  • All characters that can promote into physical/magic hybrids have high growths in the stat they do not use, as in Strength (if they’re magic units) or Magic (if they’re physical units).

If any of you care about this, feedback would be GREATLY appreciated.

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6 hours ago, Gima said:

As a result, “Pegasus Knights” no longer exist. They’ve been replaced by “Sky Knights” who ride birds, but have basically the same stats and role. Thus skirting the whole issue about why men men can ride pegasi now.Bows can now fire one step ahead, like any other weapon type.

Knights can now move at the same pace as any other unit of infantry.

Bows can now fire one step ahead, like any other weapon type.

On pegasi: There's nothing wrong with this choice per se, but there's also nothing wrong with just having Pegasus Knight not be a gender-restricted class. It's only within FE that such was ever a thing and there's no reason it can't change.

On knights and bows: I find these decisions...boring. Rather than making them just like other classes/weapons, I think it would be more interesting if you gave them different strengths to make them stand out on their own. But that might just be me.

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14 hours ago, Florete said:

On pegasi: There's nothing wrong with this choice per se, but there's also nothing wrong with just having Pegasus Knight not be a gender-restricted class. It's only within FE that such was ever a thing and there's no reason it can't change.

On knights and bows: I find these decisions...boring. Rather than making them just like other classes/weapons, I think it would be more interesting if you gave them different strengths to make them stand out on their own. But that might just be me.

In response to your comments... Pegasus Knights are really the only case in the games where gender restriction is really justified, because it's canon that pegasi only let women ride them. I've seen people open up the class to males before, for a variety of reasons, but it just doesn't feel quite right? I know that Sky Knights in Fates ride pegasi... sort of. The Japanese script says that they're actually tenma, not pegasi, and the only other reason to call them Sky Knights and not Pegasus Knights is that they're a Hoshidan class. Have you ever heard Japanese myths about pegasi? As for knights and bows, it's the simplest solution, which I found rather elegant. I considered maybe just giving Knights damage reduction, not as a skill but as an inherent ability (similarly to how only Dancers can dance), but... I'm not really sure how to balance that. It's really rather easy to say "Archers and Knights have no real advantages over other units and have several disadvantages, so why is it that they have those disadvantages in the first place? Take them away."

Basically, I can see both your points, but personally speaking I disagree with them. That's just my opinion.

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43 minutes ago, Gima said:

In response to your comments... Pegasus Knights are really the only case in the games where gender restriction is really justified, because it's canon that pegasi only let women ride them. I've seen people open up the class to males before, for a variety of reasons, but it just doesn't feel quite right? I know that Sky Knights in Fates ride pegasi... sort of. The Japanese script says that they're actually tenma, not pegasi, and the only other reason to call them Sky Knights and not Pegasus Knights is that they're a Hoshidan class. Have you ever heard Japanese myths about pegasi? As for knights and bows, it's the simplest solution, which I found rather elegant. I considered maybe just giving Knights damage reduction, not as a skill but as an inherent ability (similarly to how only Dancers can dance), but... I'm not really sure how to balance that. It's really rather easy to say "Archers and Knights have no real advantages over other units and have several disadvantages, so why is it that they have those disadvantages in the first place? Take them away."

Basically, I can see both your points, but personally speaking I disagree with them. That's just my opinion.

It's justified in-universe, but what I'm saying is that it's purely an FE thing. There's nothing like this in the original mythology, where Pegasus is actually normally seen with a male rider. Since FE universes aren't really connected and gender-restricted classes have lost their restrictions since, I find this isn't a restriction you should feel the need to keep. But as I said, there's nothing inherently wrong with the choice and in the end it's up to you.

Armor as a unit type has no practical advantages, so giving it one is a good start, and a proper damage reduction would work fine. An idea I've had in the past is to nullify or heavily reduce the amount of damage they take from physical ranged weapons like hand axes and javelins. Balancing out their lower movement relies more on map design, though; there need to be maps where movement isn't as important and they can take advantage of their bulk.

Archers, in theory, do already have an advantage over other classes: they have the best physical ranged options. In practice this has typically meant very little because IS for some reason thinks it's such an advantage that their archers have to have horrid base stats, but if ranged swords, lances, and axes were nerfed enough then bows immediately become a more desirable option. Fates has a pretty good start on this. Another idea is to extend their range the other way: give all bows 2-3 range, some even more. The ability to snipe out problem enemies from afar can be invaluable.

For both these cases I prefer to change them so that if they did have what you suggest they would be too good. These disadvantages can be what keeps them in check, not what puts them behind.

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43 minutes ago, Gima said:

In response to your comments... Pegasus Knights are really the only case in the games where gender restriction is really justified, because it's canon that pegasi only let women ride them. I've seen people open up the class to males before, for a variety of reasons, but it just doesn't feel quite right? I know that Sky Knights in Fates ride pegasi... sort of. The Japanese script says that they're actually tenma, not pegasi, and the only other reason to call them Sky Knights and not Pegasus Knights is that they're a Hoshidan class. Have you ever heard Japanese myths about pegasi? As for knights and bows, it's the simplest solution, which I found rather elegant. I considered maybe just giving Knights damage reduction, not as a skill but as an inherent ability (similarly to how only Dancers can dance), but... I'm not really sure how to balance that. It's really rather easy to say "Archers and Knights have no real advantages over other units and have several disadvantages, so why is it that they have those disadvantages in the first place? Take them away."

Basically, I can see both your points, but personally speaking I disagree with them. That's just my opinion.

It's justified in-universe, but what I'm saying is that it's purely an FE thing. There's nothing like this in the original mythology, where Pegasus is actually normally seen with a male rider. Since FE universes aren't really connected and gender-restricted classes have lost their restrictions since, I find this isn't a restriction you should feel the need to keep. But as I said, there's nothing inherently wrong with the choice and in the end it's up to you.

Armor as a unit type has no practical advantages, so giving it one is a good start, and a proper damage reduction would work fine. An idea I've had in the past is to nullify or heavily reduce the amount of damage they take from physical ranged weapons like hand axes and javelins. Balancing out their lower movement relies more on map design, though; there need to be maps where movement isn't as important and they can take advantage of their bulk.

Archers, in theory, do already have an advantage over other classes: they have the best physical ranged options. In practice this has typically meant very little because IS for some reason thinks it's such an advantage that their archers have to have horrid base stats, but if ranged swords, lances, and axes were nerfed enough then bows immediately become a more desirable option. Fates has a pretty good start on this. Another idea is to extend their range the other way: give all bows 2-3 range, some even more. The ability to snipe out problem enemies from afar can be invaluable.

For both these cases I prefer to change them so that if they did have what you suggest they would be too good. These disadvantages can be what keeps them in check, not what puts them behind.

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6 hours ago, Florete said:

It's justified in-universe, but what I'm saying is that it's purely an FE thing. There's nothing like this in the original mythology, where Pegasus is actually normally seen with a male rider. Since FE universes aren't really connected and gender-restricted classes have lost their restrictions since, I find this isn't a restriction you should feel the need to keep. But as I said, there's nothing inherently wrong with the choice and in the end it's up to you.

Armor as a unit type has no practical advantages, so giving it one is a good start, and a proper damage reduction would work fine. An idea I've had in the past is to nullify or heavily reduce the amount of damage they take from physical ranged weapons like hand axes and javelins. Balancing out their lower movement relies more on map design, though; there need to be maps where movement isn't as important and they can take advantage of their bulk.

Archers, in theory, do already have an advantage over other classes: they have the best physical ranged options. In practice this has typically meant very little because IS for some reason thinks it's such an advantage that their archers have to have horrid base stats, but if ranged swords, lances, and axes were nerfed enough then bows immediately become a more desirable option. Fates has a pretty good start on this. Another idea is to extend their range the other way: give all bows 2-3 range, some even more. The ability to snipe out problem enemies from afar can be invaluable.

For both these cases I prefer to change them so that if they did have what you suggest they would be too good. These disadvantages can be what keeps them in check, not what puts them behind.

All of this is true, but this is meant to be a relatively conservative class list. If I actually had the opportunity to test this, of course I would try options like the ones you suggested for knights and archers out, but I don't. Fire Emblem is also the kind of series where the only consistency is in world elements: pegasi are one of those world elements along with dragons and classes.

...Which, now that I think about it, moreso justifies keeping pegasi than removing them. Hmm.

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Apparently the enemy pegasus knights in FE3 where male in terms of stat caps and stuff (how masculine the sprite looks like is probably up to interpretation).

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I'm in agreement that it's a silly restriction that the series has already moved away from since Fates (yeah you can call them tenma if you want but they clearly are pegasus the same as every other flying pony in the series).

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On 10/14/2017 at 11:07 PM, Jotari said:

Apparently the enemy pegasus knights in FE3 where male in terms of stat caps and stuff (how masculine the sprite looks like is probably up to interpretation).

Oh yeah, that's the case in the GBA games, too. They have the male con/aid formula. And there are female enemies in those games so it's not like it's just an enemy-wide oddity.

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...Hmm.

OK, never mind. That was the first game, so I could kind of excuse that before, but if the Pegasus Knights in the GBA games are male too, then it's not an odd but easily explainable exception. Male Pegasus Knights, here we go.

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On 10/16/2017 at 7:46 PM, Florete said:

Oh yeah, that's the case in the GBA games, too. They have the male con/aid formula. And there are female enemies in those games so it's not like it's just an enemy-wide oddity.

Oh wow. Having Pegasus Knights with Male Con stats would have been really useful for the player -_- I'd also point out that while I believe the Game Boy Advance games do directly bring up the whole only female riders, lore wise it would make a lot of sense to have male pegasus riders serve as enemies. Ilia's economic situation as a mercenary civilization living in the equivalent of the Himalayas is shaky enough as it is. Restricting your most specialized resource to half your population and, more importantly, the weaker half, is just shooting yourself in the foot.

Edited by Jotari
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