Discussion about completion

[BBHood217]

The "incomplete hack" monster has claimed yet another victim, this time Midnight Sun.

I think it's time that we addressed this.  Something's clearly very wrong when after a decade of hacking, only a few hacks out of so many have ever reached a professionally complete state.  Why is this?  Are our ambitions just too big?  I can't help but think that so much more could be done if the scopes were limited to only 10-15 chapters maybe rather than the grandiose epics that are always attempted but almost never finished.  It just feels like so much time and effort of not just the creators but the audience too is wasted whenever another hack is inevitably left in the dust with its story never to be concluded.

I just don't enjoy seeing this happen.  I look forward to some promising hacks, and then months later whoops they're now dead so I was waiting for nothing after all.  It's so depressing...

[SentryDown]

So here's the thing. Making a hack is bloody difficult. It consumes so much time putting together graphical assets, text, chapter events, music, and all the other bits and pieces that form a romhack. People have lives and creators cannot dedicate all their life to their projects, especially since many creators also happen to be students (grades > hacks.)  

Additionally, I find it extremely disrespectful to creators when you state that the audience's time is wasted. While yes it's sad that projects get abandoned, you should know that when you play a project in progress that it might never come to completion, and stating that the audience's time is being wasted just feels like entitlement.

[CT075]

i agree with you, but i'm not sure what you're expecting the response to be.

while i don't claim to know anything about alfred's personal life, i'd imagine it died for the same reason nearly everything else did - burnout. it's one thing to put out some shitty reskin or whatever and call it a hack, but the amount of work and effort that goes into making "a professionally complete hack" for little to no gain beyond personal satisfaction (and community reputation, if that means anything) is pretty unsustainable.

you could say something about obtuse tools or community expectations or whatever but at the end of the day if there's not a sustained effort a project is going to die. i really like to advocate for larger teams of hackers instead of single people for this reason entirely, but that can be difficult to coordinate etc.

i think people should focus more on making projects like MK404's Yuri's Sidestory, which is an absolutely spectacular finished product that just feels polished and complete, even if it's only three maps

[Arch]

We need to overthrow the proleteriat and install a fascist hacking regime!

Edited January 27, 2017 by Arch

[Lord Glenn]

I brought the topic I'm about to link up the last time scope of projects came up (some idea in Concepts, can't remember which), but it's not necessarily a matter of following or abiding by the discussion in it. All we as a community should be doing is encouraging people to at least pay attention to the idea and consider it - beyond that, it's up to the individual people to actually make up their minds.

http://feuniverse.us/t/short-stories-as-fire-emblem-rom-hacks/907

It doesn't help that FE is largely sprawling epics like other works of fantasy fiction, so people naturally gravitate towards what they're familiar with and want to see more of. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is an extremely laborous undertaking. Just look at all of the crowdfunded games, indie and not, that have missed their deadlines because of just how much work those projects are - I mean, heck, how many years have Yeti and his crew been working on FE7x?

I'm of the opinion that a sprawling epic is fine so long as it's planned out to a large degeee (no feature/scope creep during development) and it's not always one person against the world - having the map laid out and wanting control of the course is great, but it's a sure road to having yourself fall apart. But, it is always a good idea to get your feet wet and feel that accomplishment by finishing something - even better if it's "OVA"-length and would supplement your desired finished product (world-building through small chunks, doing your project in an episodic format (see something like the Telltale Games-developed series and NOT simply releasing patches as arcs are completed in a larger project - literally something like 6 chapters and then stop, then start anew and do another episode of X chapters), etc.).

Edited January 27, 2017 by Lord Glenn

[InvdrZim13]

1 hour ago, CT075 said:

i really like to advocate for larger teams of hackers instead of single people for this reason entirely, but that can be difficult to coordinate etc.

Can confirm a larger team helps a lot

[Mage Knight 404]

2 hours ago, CT075 said:

i think people should focus more on making projects like MK404's Yuri's Sidestory, which is an absolutely spectacular finished product that just feels polished and complete, even if it's only three maps

Oh Camu ' 3'

Recently I hit the same road bump as Alfred - as a suggestion I got last year, I wanted to see if I could redo FE404 and make it more competent; new cast, new story, new maps, the works. Since I didn't know anyone personally who would be free to help in hacking, I once again decided to shoulder the whole thing by myself.

I even went and focused on only the essentials necessary for a basic presentation - face sprite, dialogue, and maps and events, nothing else. My being a part of the community for a decade has given me more than ample foresight of how many projects pop up only for them to falter barely a few weeks or even a month after initial conception. This is a commitment, a general thankless hobby that you have to be ready to slave a large amount of time toward to make any progress. If you lack that fortitude, you're going down in flames.

I only completed two and a half chapters before I decided to call it quits again.

I had suffered burnout as well - and not just related to ROM hacking, but a large chunk of my other projects I do I was getting barely any returns on(I do art, videos on YouTube, streams on Twitch or Picarto, and made a controversial name for myself in regards to FE404 and my Pokémon White LP, you know how it goes.). I was constantly starting new projects to take my attention away from other things and as a result I spread myself waaaay too thinly. That on top of not getting some recognition for the things I actually put effort into, such as my art or the PokéWhite LP, made me break down and forced me to back away.

I'd love more than anything to redo New FE404 or continue to work on my other FE related projects through FEXNA, but I simply don't have the time or patience to do that anymore. I'm an art and story guy - ROM hacking has changed a lot since I was out of the game and is now above me, and even if things were made radically simpler, without someone to help I'd rather not tangle with that beast again.

Cam mentioned Yuri's Sidestory, a project I was doing just for fun to take my mind off of working on A Sacred Dawn. I didn't even intend to put that much effort into it, just enough that it could serve as passable. Even given my track record, YSS remains the only ROM hack I've done that I actually like unironically and wished more people would notice rather than what I'm generally known for. Regardless of scope, I also think people should just start small, see how well they can grasp working on a project, before moving into the big leagues.

But maybe the big leagues is just too big for us to begin with. Keep it small and civil.

[sirmola]

I am always of the opinion that you should start with something small before going big. THere are four reasons for this. Firstly: you learn things on the small project that make the latter projects go much more smoothly. Secondly: you get some handle on just how hard a hacking project is. Thirdly, a sufficiently small project allows you to avoid repointing any tables or lists, which is hard and makes nightmare and other tools useless. Fourthly, a small project can be compleated over something like a summer break, which makes it easier to guarantee that life will not get in the way. Probably start with a one chapter ragefest thing, then do something 5-10 chapters long.That's a good length, because you can still tell a decently complete story in that length. An example of a romhack that is short and sweet, is "A grand day out" Link:https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=276201

Quote

Features

Play as a Pokémon Trainer! Dress up as a Team Rocket member for a brief time! Catch a Cubone! Sorry, but there aren't actually any radically new features here. This is just the video game equivalent of an amusing short story; designed for immediate consumption and subsequent throwing away. Treat it as candy. It's fun (I hope), but ultimately there's no substance, and it may well rot your teeth. Although if you play A Grand Day Out and your teeth do rot, I will deny all knowledge of it and accept no responsibility.

One last thing: this a a leaf green hack, not a fire red hack like most other pokemon hacks.

Edited January 27, 2017 by sirmola

[BBHood217]

5 hours ago, Lord Glenn said:

http://feuniverse.us/t/short-stories-as-fire-emblem-rom-hacks/907

This is perfect.  And apparently old, having been written in 2015.

But anyway, that's how I plan to start on my first FE game whenever FEXNA comes out.  I've been thinking about a larger one that's 20ish chapters, but first I wanna make one that's only around 5 chapters.

[Lamia]

I'd also like to add my own two cents

like any long-term project, one has to have the kind of commitment required in order to work on their project in the long-term in the first place, and I mean other than dealing with real-life stuff

if you find you have no special attachment to the project... you can't see yourself still working on it years later... you don't feel your idea is unique or worth expressing... it's going to be a flop, and I don't mean to the playerbase, I mean to yourself, and it's going to quietly fall into the pit of the many failed projects once you lose interest

my own project for example, taking place in FE4, is kind of half-assed and at the moment, about half-done after over three years of being the single developer, but I have several things and more that keep me going:

1. It's my own personal world, filled with all of my own characters of my own creation that I've had for many years, and the project is a way to utilize them, make them alive.
2. Genealogy has pretty much NO full conversion hacks, mostly nothing more than a lot of reskinning or rebalance. I'd love to be able to try to bring something new to the table, and hopefully encourage more of them.
3. I'm an artist, and entertaining people in general is my jam. (I'm also quite familiar with doing FREE, THANKLESS AND STRESSFUL WORK FOR YEARS, ASSHOLES)
4. I like playing with and exploring FE as a game system. What if so-and-so were part of a real FE? How do I get around the game's restrictions, or manipulate the features already put in place to benefit my project? It's a minor, common thing, but I can play with it all I want, and have other people experience my vision of my own FE, and get those 'A-ha!' moments in designing it that are all-too-satisfying.

using FE4 is a bit more lenient than most projects as well, in the sense that there are 12 fixed chapters with a break in-between, so it assures me a solid length to work with

anyway, incomplete projects like FE hacks are hardly unique; ANY KIND of project out there is going to have a higher percentage of incomplete compared to completed works, and it's something one has to accept

I sure hope I complete my project someday though

Edited January 29, 2017 by Lamia

[Arch]

On 1/27/2017 at 10:03 AM, Lord Glenn said:

I brought the topic I'm about to link up the last time scope of projects came up (some idea in Concepts, can't remember which), but it's not necessarily a matter of following or abiding by the discussion in it. All we as a community should be doing is encouraging people to at least pay attention to the idea and consider it - beyond that, it's up to the individual people to actually make up their minds.

http://feuniverse.us/t/short-stories-as-fire-emblem-rom-hacks/907

It doesn't help that FE is largely sprawling epics like other works of fantasy fiction, so people naturally gravitate towards what they're familiar with and want to see more of. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is an extremely laborous undertaking. Just look at all of the crowdfunded games, indie and not, that have missed their deadlines because of just how much work those projects are - I mean, heck, how many years have Yeti and his crew been working on FE7x?

I'm of the opinion that a sprawling epic is fine so long as it's planned out to a large degeee (no feature/scope creep during development) and it's not always one person against the world - having the map laid out and wanting control of the course is great, but it's a sure road to having yourself fall apart. But, it is always a good idea to get your feet wet and feel that accomplishment by finishing something - even better if it's "OVA"-length and would supplement your desired finished product (world-building through small chunks, doing your project in an episodic format (see something like the Telltale Games-developed series and NOT simply releasing patches as arcs are completed in a larger project - literally something like 6 chapters and then stop, then start anew and do another episode of X chapters), etc.).

This discussion of alternative approaches to game design is certainly helpful to revisit. Although, I suppose I would caution that feature/scope creep can be a very real danger regardless of a project's intended length, but perhaps even moreso with the shorter hack. There's something of a natural tendency to want to "do more with less" which can be a bit of a slippery slope. Especially with Elibean Nights, my own unfinished beast, the nonlinear "episodic" nature of the game made it far too easy to freelance and add new features on a whim which turned out to be quite difficult to execute (see: matchmaker). It's grown far beyond any reasonable expectation or plan that I'd originally had--on one hand, that organic growth can spark some nifty innovations and progressive improvement throughout the life of the project, but on the other hand it can also lead to an uneven experience unless the developer goes back and reinvents a few of the squeaky older wheels.

tl;dr The moral of the story is to be mindful of exactly what steps it will take to accomplish any singular goal, and to thoroughly understand the commitment behind each design decision. When you are in a position to make informed and resourceful decisions, a project of any length is relatively manageable. Getting to that point, however, is quite a steep learning curve in regards to ROM hacking as a medium.

On 1/27/2017 at 10:42 AM, InvdrZim13 said:

Can confirm a larger team helps a lot

+1 for the value of teamwork. Without the support of many friends throughout the years, EN wouldn't be half of what it is (even in its 90% form). Having that support system in place sorta helped enable my feature/scope creep throughout the years, but at the same time the homies are all fucking awesome human beings and I love them all to death.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Arch

[guedesbrawl]

I feel like the sheer difficulty in making a hack is the biggest factor.

 

honestly, this is why we need a Fire Emblem maker, lol.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

2 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

honestly, this is why we need a Fire Emblem maker, lol.

There is SRPG Studio, but that is in Japanese.

FEXNA is still in development, and I am afraid that Nintendo will shut that down (unless that gets modified to have no Fire emblem assets whatsoever).

[wheelsonfire]

If they haven't shut down old hacking devices, why would they shut down new ones? Unless this can do something on the level of an official game, or if a fan game gets promoted around the time an official game comes out.

 

It's just a matter of making sure things don't get too much publicity, and that the timing doesn't conflict with official releases.

[Lamia]

4 hours ago, In The Beginning said:

There is SRPG Studio, but that is in Japanese.

FEXNA is still in development, and I am afraid that Nintendo will shut that down (unless that gets modified to have no Fire emblem assets whatsoever).

I don't think the FE romhacking community or its projects are large enough to get on nintendo's radar

however if someone were to suddenly, say... make a large, ongoing project about remaking the jugdral saga in FE10, then we might have issues because that would be fucking awesome

Edited February 4, 2017 by Lamia