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ITT: Soul ranks FE10 characters


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4 hours ago, DLuna said:

Leo deserves more credit because chip damage becomes more valuable in hard mode to bring enemies in kill territory (so they cannot damage you). And his performance in 1-5 and 1-6-1 is pretty solid due to ledges and pegasi.

Then part 3 comes along and he literally becomes one of the best units you have for a couple maps. And then can become a decent filler unit in 4-5 as well if need be (same can be said for anyone with a crossbow I suppose). That does deserve a higher score than you gave him. I'd say a 5 is about right, IMO.

Leo's chip is pretty bad though and the chokepoint setup in many of the early chapters means only one unit can chip. Micaiah+Nolan combine for KOs more often than Leo+Nolan do.

You don't even really need to kill stuff in 1-5 and everyone except Volug can  use ledges here to gain Exp. Pegasi in 1-6 aren't hard to kill- base Volug, Sothe, Zihark, and Tauroneo all ORKO them(all but Volug at 1-2 range) and can do so on the Enemy Phase.

I don't get the hype for Leo's Part 3 either. He's only serviceable in 3-6 with Beastfoe, which is probably better on a unit like Nolan (or even Volug or something) because they can kill stuff on EP. I guess he can shoot some pegs in 3-12, but 'one of the best units we have' seems like a bit much.

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15 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

I don't get the hype for Leo's Part 3 either. He's only serviceable in 3-6 with Beastfoe, which is probably better on a unit like Nolan (or even Volug or something) because they can kill stuff on EP. I guess he can shoot some pegs in 3-12, but 'one of the best units we have' seems like a bit much.

There isn't a crossbow in 3-6 and and Handaxe (for 2 range) isn't exactly going to be killing tigers nor cats with beastfoe.

Leon kills both effortless with either Bravebow and Lughnasadh.

Then comes 3-13 which yes, Nolan can be given a crossbow+beastfoe. But it's still better to give to Leo since Nolan will perform fine without it, while Leo won't do much without it. So having two 7-8/10 units on this map is better than a 9/10 unit and a 3/10 one. Same argument stands for 3-6 as well.

This is all possible just by leveling Leo to 10 in part 1. Which in that part, does 10+ damage with the Steelbow at base which is okay. He's forced in many maps and has the benefit of being useful when underfed. Unlike say, Edward. So he's pretty much an Ilyana with 3 extra maps of forced contribution. I mean, this is also why I'd rate Edward at least above average for those first 2-3 maps.

He's still not great or anything but as it stands, a rating of 5 is appropriate.

Edited by DLuna
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57 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

Leo's chip is pretty bad though and the chokepoint setup in many of the early chapters means only one unit can chip. Micaiah+Nolan combine for KOs more often than Leo+Nolan do.

You don't even really need to kill stuff in 1-5 and everyone except Volug can  use ledges here to gain Exp. Pegasi in 1-6 aren't hard to kill- base Volug, Sothe, Zihark, and Tauroneo all ORKO them(all but Volug at 1-2 range) and can do so on the Enemy Phase.

I don't get the hype for Leo's Part 3 either. He's only serviceable in 3-6 with Beastfoe, which is probably better on a unit like Nolan (or even Volug or something) because they can kill stuff on EP. I guess he can shoot some pegs in 3-12, but 'one of the best units we have' seems like a bit much.

As far as Leo and part 3 are concerned, I'd disagree with Beastfoe being better used by Nolan or Volug since they're liable to wind up killing themselves if they kill too much (and the latter needs to transform first). 

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2 hours ago, Ema Skye said:

I would argue Jill as well. The payoff is almost immediate. At the latest, she's paid for any investments by 3-6.

I wouldn't. Her base strength is atrocious. And yes, I know you can forge, but it's still bad. 

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2 hours ago, DLuna said:

There isn't a crossbow in 3-6 and and Handaxe (for 2 range) isn't exactly going to be killing tigers nor cats with beastfoe.

unless this is an hm exclusive thing i can't remember, pretty sure there is a buyable crossbow for 3-6

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3 minutes ago, Radiant head said:

unless this is an hm exclusive thing i can't remember, pretty sure there is a buyable crossbow for 3-6

I stand corrected -- for some reason I was under the impression they were bargains only. Like the Taksh in 3-12.

Regardless, maximising your full team as a whole makes the set-up more appropriate for Leo. Nolan's just fine without it when there's the opportunity to make someone else go from zero to hero..

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As far as Leo and part 3 are concerned, I'd disagree with Beastfoe being better used by Nolan or Volug since they're liable to wind up killing themselves if they kill too much (and the latter needs to transform first). 

Nolan can also OHKO at 2 range as others have pointed out, so Leo doesn't have any flexibility advantage here- he actually has less because you can afford to place Nolan in the range of a few laguz and he won't die. It will also clear the chapter more quickly because more laguz die, hence more efficiency.

 

2 hours ago, DLuna said:

Then comes 3-13 which yes, Nolan can be given a crossbow+beastfoe. But it's still better to give to Leo since Nolan will perform fine without it, while Leo won't do much without it. So having two 7-8/10 units on this map is better than a 9/10 unit and a 3/10 one. Same argument stands for 3-6 as well.\

Nolan isn't naturally ORKOing laguz without Beastfoe unless he got absurdly blessed. I don't think giving Beastfoe to a unit with no/poor Enemy Phase and no real prospects of helping to clear Part 4 is a good investment of the skill over Nolan.

This is all possible just by leveling Leo to 10 in part 1. Which in that part, does 10+ damage with the Steelbow at base which is okay. He's forced in many maps and has the benefit of being useful when underfed. Unlike say, Edward. So he's pretty much an Ilyana with 3 extra maps of forced contribution. I mean, this is also why I'd rate Edward at least above average for those first 2-3 maps.

"Just level 10" is 6 levels for Leo on a team strapped for Exp. You have to set up kills for a unit with foot move, bad durability, and poor offense. He does like 5-7 damage to units in 1-1. He gets a small offensive increase if you get him to C bows, but he's still like 3HKOing(at best) non mages/pegs. 

Overall, I think Leo's investment is too high for what we get out of it overall.

 

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19 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

Nolan can also OHKO at 2 range as others have pointed out, so Leo doesn't have any flexibility advantage here- he actually has less because you can afford to place Nolan in the range of a few laguz and he won't die. It will also clear the chapter more quickly because more laguz die, hence more efficiency.

 

 

But what you're not taking into account is what I said before; having a great unit and a deadweight unit is not as good than having a good unit and another good unit. Leo doesn't need much to become essentially another useful unit.

It's similar to the whole "give the most resources to Jill" thing. Because it benefits you the most. You give Leo certain resources to benefit you the most. 

When it comes to Nolan with a crossbow, range is only useful to counterattack ranged enemies of which there are none in 3-6 or 3-13 anyway. However, Nolan is good at Tanking and dealing decent damage at melee. If he's one-shotting enemies it just leaves him open to attack. And makign him a ranged unit with a crossbow is wasting what he should be used for-- when you can just do the same for Leo and have another useful unit.

Quote

 

"Just level 10" is 6 levels for Leo on a team strapped for Exp. You have to set up kills for a unit with foot move, bad durability, and poor offense. He does like 5-7 damage to units in 1-1. He gets a small offensive increase if you get him to C bows, but he's still like 3HKOing(at best) non mages/pegs. 

Overall, I think Leo's investment is too high for what we get out of it overall.

 

Training him to 10 isn't exactly difficult. He's gaining 8-10 EXP per hit and let's say he attacks 8 times per map (except prologue). That's 70 EXP per map (double that for 1-4) until 1-7 up until where he stops being forced/free deployment. So by default he's level 8 or 9 with getting 0 kills. And if you spare him a kill per map then job's done, perhaps with 50 BEXP as well or something. 

You have a filler slot or two in 1-E as well. So there's that if he needs a bit more.

 

Edited by DLuna
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23 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

Nolan can also OHKO at 2 range as others have pointed out, so Leo doesn't have any flexibility advantage here- he actually has less because you can afford to place Nolan in the range of a few laguz and he won't die. It will also clear the chapter more quickly because more laguz die, hence more efficiency.

 

 

Well, it's true that Nolan can do it as well, but on the other hand, you risk it being his undoing unless you luck out repeatedly since laguz have high accuracy, tigers hit like Mack trucks, and Nolan one-shotting means he opens himself up to more attacks, and this equation is one that's highly likely to equal a dead Nolan.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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37 minutes ago, DLuna said:

But what you're not taking into account is what I said before; having a great unit and a deadweight unit is not as good than having a good unit and another good unit. Leo doesn't need much to become essentially another useful unit.

It's similar to the whole "give the most resources to Jill" thing. Because it benefits you the most. You give Leo certain resources to benefit you the most. 

This is actually contradictory IMO- because giving all the resources to Jill ensures a great unit rather than multiple mediocre units. If your first statement was true, we'd give the Dracoshield to Edward and the Seraph Robe to Aran and so on. Investing in units with no enemy phase and generally poor player phase offense doesn't benefit us the most.

When it comes to Nolan with a crossbow, range is only useful to counterattack ranged enemies of which there are none in 3-6 or 3-13 anyway. However, Nolan is good at Tanking and dealing decent damage at melee. If he's one-shotting enemies it just leaves him open to attack. And makign him a ranged unit with a crossbow is wasting what he should be used for-- when you can just do the same for Leo and have another useful unit.

It's useful to ensure kills on the toughest tigers. It's not the crossbow that matters though, Beastfoe+Tarvos works well too.

Training him to 10 isn't exactly difficult. He's gaining 8-10 EXP per hit and let's say he attacks 8 times per map (except prologue). That's 70 EXP per map (double that for 1-4) until 1-7 up until where he stops being forced/free deployment. So by default he's level 8 or 9 with getting 0 kills. And if you spare him a kill per map then job's done, perhaps with 50 BEXP as well or something. 

I definitely don't take 7-8 turns per map, so...depends on your definition of blitzing I guess.

You have a filler slot or two in 1-E as well. So there's that if he needs a bit more.

I find 1-E pretty crowded in terms of deployment slots: Nailah, BK, Ilyana(for transferring speedwings), Tormod, Muarim etc. all help clear the chapter more than Leo.

26 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well, it's true that Nolan can do it as well, but on the other hand, you risk it being his undoing unless you luck out repeatedly since laguz have high accuracy, tigers hit like Mack trucks, and Nolan one-shotting means he opens himself up to more attacks, and this equation is one that's highly likely to equal a dead Nolan.

10/1 Leonardo is ORKOd by every 3-6 enemy on average. If you would leave Leonardo in the same position as Nolan, he dies. Nolan might kill 'too many' laguz and die- but having the flexibility to take on multiple laguz in a turn is a pretty obvious advantage lol.

 

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11 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

10/1 Leonardo is ORKOd by every 3-6 enemy on average. If you would leave Leonardo in the same position as Nolan, he dies. Nolan might kill 'too many' laguz and die- but having the flexibility to take on multiple laguz in a turn is a pretty obvious advantage lol.

True, but the way I see it, a strategy that has no risk beats the pants off a strategy that has a lot of risk (Beastfoe Nolan) several times over to the point it ain't even funny.

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This is actually contradictory IMO- because giving all the resources to Jill ensures a great unit rather than multiple mediocre units. If your first statement was true, we'd give the Dracoshield to Edward and the Seraph Robe to Aran and so on. Investing in units with no enemy phase and generally poor player phase offense doesn't benefit us the most.

I'm not sure what your point is here. We're not exactly giving Leo a huge amount of resources here, to the point where you're getting a good unit out of said minimal resources.

 

  1.  Getting him to level 10 is not difficult no matter how to go about it. It really isn't. You can take 6 turns a map and that's still half way into level 7 with 0 kills. Then you can provide any combination of providing a few kills, a bit of BEXP or deployment on 1-E to gain a further 60-80 EXP or so.
  2.  Using a master seal is the cost of giving it to a level 20 unit so they can skip 21. This is notable, but not a big deal.
  3.  He gets exclusive access to Lughnasash and Bravebow. That is zero resource allocation as a result. You do not need to purchase a crossbow and thereforesave gold.
  4.  Giving him beastfoe is the only real opportunity cost. So... you're sacrifing one skill for an entirely extra usable unit. A worthwhile trade.
18 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

10/1 Leonardo is ORKOd by every 3-6 enemy on average. If you would leave Leonardo in the same position as Nolan, he dies. Nolan might kill 'too many' laguz and die- but having the flexibility to take on multiple laguz in a turn is a pretty obvious advantage lol.

Not sure how getting ORKOed is relevant. Leo kills something a turn which is useful. Nolan chokes a point without risk of being killed (which is what 1RKOing on enemy phase can end up causing). 

The way you worded that statement as well kind of makes it seem I'm trying to say Leo is as good as Nolan or should be rated as such. But... that's not really the point here. It's to do with the fact that Leo is actually pretty good without too much investment and not really taking anything away from the player. Even if Leo were to not save turns by being used, the fact that he does cost any either is points in his favor, because it implies that his usage is a possible strategy that is viable with no detriment. Unlike Edward who would likely to cost turns to be usable in part 3.

It's also worth pointing out that Beastfoe!Leo is a very safe strategy that isn't prone to bad RNG, compared to the alternative.

Edited by DLuna
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29 minutes ago, DLuna said:

I'm not sure what your point is here. We're not exactly giving Leo a huge amount of resources here, to the point where you're getting a good unit out of said minimal resources.

 

  1.  Getting him to level 10 is not difficult no matter how to go about it. It really isn't. You can take 6 turns a map and that's still half way into level 7 with 0 kills. Then you can provide any combination of providing a few kills, a bit of BEXP or deployment on 1-E to gain a further 60-80 EXP or so.
  2.  Using a master seal is the cost of giving it to a level 20 unit so they can skip 21. This is notable, but not a big deal.
  3.  He gets exclusive access to Lughnasash and Bravebow. That is zero resource allocation as a result. You do not need to purchase a crossbow and thereforesave gold.
  4.  Giving him beastfoe is the only real opportunity cost. So... you're sacrifing one skill for an entirely extra usable unit. A worthwhile trade.

Leo is not a 'good unit'. No Enemy Phase. Poor offense against anything that's not a flier or laguz with Beastfoe.

Not sure how getting ORKOed is relevant. Leo kills something a turn which is useful. Nolan chokes a point without risk of being killed (which is what 1RKOing on enemy phase can end up causing). 

Using an unarmed unit and having Leo kill one unit a turn sounds like turtling. Nolan can also do the unarmed turtling strategy if you really want to, with the added flexibility of possible EP combat. Nolan's Part 4 prospects are also significantly better than Leo's (better offense, durability, and countering) and your strategy funnels all the Exp into Leo.

It's also worth pointing out that Beastfoe!Leo is a very safe strategy that isn't prone to bad RNG, compared to the alternative.

Most tier lists assume that the player has perfect knowledge, so they can maximize the use of Nolan's durability to kill as many laguz as possible. If we start rating strategies based on 'safety' than the optimal strategy for 3-5 is to put unarmed Ike on the Seize square and mash End Turn. 

 

Edited by -Cynthia-
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19 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

Most tier lists assume that the player has perfect knowledge, so they can maximize the use of Nolan's durability to kill as many laguz as possible. If we start rating strategies based on 'safety' than the optimal strategy for 3-5 is to put unarmed Ike on the Seize square and mash End Turn. 

I'm not seeing what's this about Nolan and durability, since 37 Hp/13 Def isn't exactly what I'd call a stone wall; even Tarvos doesn't really change anything as far as tigers are concerned. Also, that situation and 3-6 are apples and oranges - you don't have boatloads of enemies that 2HKO pretty much everyone no questions asked.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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27 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

Leo is not a 'good unit'. No Enemy Phase. Poor offense against anything that's not a flier or laguz with Beastfoe.

And? We're sacrificing a single skill scroll to have an extra useful unit on the team who happens to be decent. I find it hard to believe that this is such a huge detriment if we're rating Leo on him being a competent unit vs. opportunity cost.

Yes, we may be clearing a bit faster perhaps with piling everything into Nolan and hope he doesn't die along the way? (although Nolan isn't soloing without considering other units like Volug and Zihark. And if Nolan is one-shotting on enemy phase then he is likely to be killed).

 

27 minutes ago, -Cynthia- said:

Most tier lists assume that the player has perfect knowledge, so they can maximize the use of Nolan's durability to kill as many laguz as possible. If we start rating strategies based on 'safety' than the optimal strategy for 3-5 is to put unarmed Ike on the square and mash End Turn. 

Rating units based on 'optimal or perfect strategies/knowledge' isn't really a good basis to measure units on. Otherwise units like Rolf would be 1/10 because using other units are 'better'. This is true, but the whole point of rating a unit is understanding how good they are when used to a moderate degree. That's kinda the whole point of rating -- to evaluate how effective a unit is in completing the game in terms of efficiency, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's 100% optimal. Otherwise we might as well completely disregard units who aren't 100% efficient.

Renning would be a 0/10 because under an optimal strategy he wouldn't be deployed. But that's not how it works.

Leo is rated based on "how much value can I make out of this unit" and "if used, what do I sacrifice". For Leo, it's really not a whole lot to make him decent for a portion of the game. Fairly low opportunity cost to essentially have a credible unit.

And even despite that, I'd still rate a 5. So it's not like I'm advocating that he's as good as Nolan or something. 

 

Edited by DLuna
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8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't really think NM/HM makes much difference for Edward, honestly. It's not like he dodges axes with any reliability in Part 1, either. I almost always play NM due to my dislike of HM's mechanics and I find Edward pretty consistently mediocre since he's often 2HKOed even on NM, and if anything his "payoff" in part 3 is even worse since the enemies are easier to double in NM (thus removing what small advantage he has over Jill, for instance).

This is true.

In NM he'll get 2RKOed by magic users, steel axes and maybe steel lances. He has better evasion against axes but their hitrate is still decent enough to hit him.

In HM he's good against soldiers because they've the same attack power as in NM but lower hit. With support he can take two steel lance hits. Also the pegasus knights in 1-6-1 and lance knights in 1-6-2 normally don't 2RKO him. The only issue is that steel bows can 2RKO him too except you're really lucky with his defense (needs 12 defense + A support with Leo, Aran or Jill) for 1-E.

His payoff is actually the midgame of part 1, 1-5 to be precise, because it's the point when he starts doubling constantly and onerounding with a forged sword. Edward isn't really important in part 3. He's basically a (worse) range weapon user than Leonardo because he's too squishy to be used as front unit. Wrath + range swords make him a good player phase unit but he'll get by far less experience in part 3 than Jill, Nolan, Sothe or Volug.

 

 

Leo's chip is high enough to finish enemies off with Nolan (forged weapon), Edward (doubling) or Jill. He's excellent in 1-5 with the longbow to chip the hand axe fighter, javelin soldier, archers from the ledge so other people can finish them off. Same goes for 1-E.

In part 3 he's your only real classic range weapon user in part 3, and you really want one for these chapters.

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On 28/1/2017 at 7:27 PM, Sweet_Basil said:

Sothe slows down by part 4 because because everyone starts focusing on Jill and the second character they're raising, but I wonder if he can keep up if he was the focus of the babying going on in part 3.

Sothe doesn't need babying, and the only thing you'd be achieving is making him usable in 4-P or something. You can get something like a lvl.4-5 Sothe if you've been using him consistently (and this isn't even "leeching" on others' Exp gain).

On 28/1/2017 at 10:57 PM, Slumber said:

And blessing a Wyrmslayer is a decent idea, but it's useful for only the one map, and Zihark would be more useful in the last two maps, since Edward gets shredded by magic

Funny, because your whole criteria is literally based on one whole chapter. Doesn't matter if a character is better at the end of the game (literally), it's what they've been doing longer, consistently and on what ocassion (in this case, Parts 1 & DB Part 3 of HM). In that case, they're interchangable. 

Quote
  • Sothe would get a 9 or 9.5 in part 1, but I have to judge the other parts too. In 3-6 and 3-13 he's a great player phase unit but nothing special anymore. 3-12 can be a really bad chapter for him if he gets tworounded. In 4-P he can be pretty alright... but after the late promotion he won't be able to do much anymore. He'll technically stay level 1 when he enters the tower. You must be really lucky with his speed if he can do serious stuff there. I don't find Sothe underrated, because his endgame perfomance is simply not enough to give him >=9.

Very much considering putting him at 9, honestly. I definitely don't take back his Part 1 performance, and that's about 90-95% of his value. He's solid in Part 3, and may as well not exist in Part 4 (again, when he's already carried Part 1 in his back).

  • Personally Leonardo > Aran in HM because Leo is the only real range weapon user in part 3 and Lugnasadh makes him pretty alright. If he reached 15 speed, he doesn't even need beastfoe. One crit would onerund 16 AS tigers. He also has a few uses in part 1: In 1-6-1 against the peggies and in 1-5, 1-7 and 1-E to chip with the longbow. He's a bad archer, sure, but still helpful enough for the DB.

Takes plenty of training to get Leonardo to that magical number in the first place (15 AS), and then there's the issue of whether or not he'll be able to get enough Atk to 1RKO, even with a critical. Dude needs 20 Str (or 18, with a +2 from supports), and he's not realistically getting that.

Guy is just awful and doesn't afford anything anyone isn't doing better and with added benefits (hell, I'd even argue Edward snipes better as he builds up his supports+doubling/Wrath).

It's also pretty clear that Player Phase>No Player Phase. Aran can at least get out of the "2HKO'd" range very quickly, and can even start chipping harder.

  • Find it interesting that Edward and Nolan got the same rating (did it too btw). I find Edward better overall in part 1 because of his speed while I find Nolan better later on because of his bulkyness and earth-affinity. Both have the same use for the party in total for me.

Like you said, they're sort of fulfilling the same person. They're what I like to call "frontliner material". People like them, Jill and Aran can carry your whole team, assuming you're investing in them properly. If you're spending all your resources on Jill (who can actually still do very well without them, mind you), you're not allowing someone like Nolan or Edward take advantage of their potential. DBs don't have very good backline performance, but they can sure as hell pull through as frontliners. 

It's also the opposite, Nolan's slight bulkyness gives him the edge for most of Part 1, but Edward starts excelling at dodge-tanking and being a killing machine in Part 3 with the setup I mentioned.

 

On 29/1/2017 at 6:07 AM, ping said:

Let me explain why you are objectively wrong about everything...

Nah, your explainations are solid, even though I would weigh things differently than you. For example, I still think that the investment into Eddy is pretty high and the payoff isn't that important, so I still see him as an average unit.

I'm curious to see which units you actually see as bad.

Dude, the payoff is the whole reason why you're investing on him in the first place. It's justified. You think I'd give that kind of rating to someone who can become "sort of usable" by taking some resources? There's two Angelic Robes and no one really wants the Secret Book.

On 29/1/2017 at 6:46 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

But not nearly as high as Dheginsea. After him, the next highest are:

Sephiran, 45 def (Parity can lower this)
Corner auras, 40 def (Parity can lower this)
Levail, 39 def (Parity can lower this, and his res is super-low anyway)
Red Dragons, ~36 def
Generals, 30-32 def
Side auras, 30 def

Just for the record, Dheginsea has 30 AS.

19 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

8.5 is a fair rating for his peformance in part 1 because he can do A LOT.

As for part 3 Edward will fall behind a bit due to his squishyness. Resolve on him doesn't work as great as for Zihark because of lacking evasion in his affinity.

Honestly I'm glad that at least one other person besides me noticed Edward's potential in HM.

No, he doesn't (do much). In fact, most of your DBs aren't. Even Jill. Ironically, I do give him credit for being quite strong as abusing certain chokepoints and areas that allow you to finish the chapters faster (such as 1-1, 1-3 & 1-4). Part 3 is where he starts going, again, like most DBs. 

Edward can easily establish A with Nolan, which is arguably his best support partner. That's 23 Avo, on top of Resolve and Caladbolg's +8 Luck. You can even take advantage of the bushes for extra Avo and go into Snipe Mode, in which Edward can take huge advantage while in Wrath/Resolve and his great Str (20 Str Edward can actually 1RKO Tigers with a critical and a normal hit). You can also decide to go with the Leo support setup and have him boost Atk, in which he can reliably snipe harder and squueze a shit ton of Exp in the name of Paragon.

19 hours ago, DLuna said:

Yet... aren't these ratings based on HM? I'm confused.

People calling him "average/mediocre" in NM makes me cringe.

As others have mentioned Edward needs quite a bit of investment (around the same as Aran) to remain solid. And his "potential" is no better than other units or Swordmasters in general. Everyone in this game cap-rams their stats anyway so eh... Wrath is nice but always seems to be more practical on ranged units. There's a lot of cool things you can do with it early on though and therefore Edward's performance for a few maps is solid enough (for that alone I'd rate him at least a 6 or so). It's just that in hard mode, his evasion is shakier than it should be. And cannot make much use of BEXP to 'fill out' certain stats that he might want. As its extremely limited. He also doesn't have the broken Earth affinity to make him the super dodge tank that Zihark, Volug or Nolan can be.

Uh, he does. Again, that's the whole reason why you're investing in the first place. His potential is insane, and so is Nolan & Jill's. You don't doubt Jill can do a ton if you give her most of your resources. Edward's the exact same deal, with the obvious exception he doesn't belong to a broken class. And if everyone ramcaps stats as you say they do, does that mean someone like Laura is also great?

People seem to lack a lot of creativity. Yes, in paper, tanking axes with your face and being 2HKO'd is awful. But in paper, you can play around it, and end up having a great unit in return (which, again, isn't even taking anywhere as much of a toll on the team as some make it seem). Need I also remind people that these ratings are mostly in a vacuum? It's not Communist Emblem. Not everyone is using Jill always, and not everything will be devoted to the best character for them to go Solo Mode (i.e Haar).

For the record, just because Edward isn't an Earth doesn't mean he's limited to supporting one of them. Nolan is a fantastic candidate- almost perfect, in fact. And as for BEXP, he can actually juice out his last levels really well to patch up his more lowly stats (obviously, Def).

Leo deserves more credit because chip damage becomes more valuable in hard mode to bring enemies in kill territory (so they cannot damage you). And his performance in 1-5 and 1-6-1 is pretty solid due to ledges and pegasi.

Then part 3 comes along and he literally becomes one of the best units you have for a couple maps. And then can become a decent filler unit in 4-5 as well if need be (same can be said for anyone with a crossbow I suppose). That does deserve a higher score than you gave him. I'd say a 5 is about right, IMO.

See, here's one of the few cases I can actually say the theory lives up to the expectations: 

Leo.

Trust me, I tried. I tried being rather favourable in the amount of Exp he gets, and even so, it's still nowhere enough to even get him only a bit over lvl.10 (aka, the base requisite for him to be in the "hey i can actually do stuff for a chapter or two!". His chip may as well not exist to the likes of Micaiah's or Ilya's (who 2HKO consistently). It's like, who's the real Archer here.

Other ratings seem solid enough. You may be overstating Laura's potential as well though. Her caps are so bad. Needs to be 20/7 just to double Tigers because of it.

Eh, you know, healer benefits. Keeping people alive and not having them use up a turn to heal is pretty solid. Probably giving her an added .5 because she can work as a combat unit, even if not entirely realistic. I actually used her in HM, but I gave her all my Part 1 Exp and stuff.

"I'm right and others are wrong about this, except you". You might not have not meant it that way... but there's a lot of good arguments against his performance. I know that you disagree that there isn't 'favouritism' involved but it's hard not to see it that way when you have to force yourself to play HM notably slower to raise/use him throughout part 1 (his squishiness often means you have to play conservatively with him and/or he needs to chug a vulnerary every other turn or force Laura to heal him constantly). The healing thing is kinda a big deal when it comes to playing efficiently, regardless of what he's killing/isn't killing. His evasion on HM is not very good.

Oh, no. His evasion is crap. I actually never denied it. But, like, again- it's literally not the same in practice as it does sound in paper. Check the link above

 

17 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

This seems like a lot of Exp to me-  I can only get two of those units to level 15+ on Hard Mode. Granted, I do stuff like dropping Tauroneo in 1-6(2) so there's a lot of unused exp there in exchange for turns.

I'm pretty sure they can make it, and I have done it in pretty tight (as in, turncount) runs. It's usually a mix of Edward and Nolan or something. Jill shouldn't have any trouble doing so.

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Aran

I've always had it, for this guy. He always seemed a little overrated to me, and that's pretty weird, because most of us could've agreed that even then, he's not that great. But color me surprised, I did a re-check on the numbers, and it seems this guy might actually be pretty fucking good

Look at it this way. You know how this one fucker (we all know who he is) gives seemingly absurd ratings to characters we all thought were shitty backliners? The same guy proposed this one thing he'd like to call, "frontliner material". "why would you give so many resources to X character?". So this is a thing I've answered and reiterated like 3-4 times already: It's all in effeciency. See, you're not giving a character like Leo or Fiona all your resources in Part 1, because we know for a fact they won't actually be paying off (at least not anytime ever soon winkwinkfiona). However, there's no problem in doing so for characters that do and will have the ability to carry your whole team on their back, and Aran might just be one of them. 

Let me clarify:

okay, so first of all, 35% Spd growth was (and is/should be) the reason you're turned off from using this character and expecting him to do well. And not only that, but he also doesn't do the tanking part very well at the beggining (gets 2HKO'd, some Soldiers even 1RKO him, etc.). However, he does get out of that treshold rather quickly (stupid-ass 75% Def growth), and he's not too different to train from the likes of, say, Edward or Nolan. His Part 1 is really a huge quest for self-improvement (again, every 1rst tier). Once you do get him up to, say, level 15 and BEXP him to lvl.19:

lvl 19/1

HP: 41 (Angelic Robe)
Str: 21
Skill: 21 (Secret Book)
Spd: 17
Luck: 9
Def: 21 (Dracoshield)
Res: nobodycares

See, here's the thing. By feeding him those three statboosters, you're allowing him to cap key stats faster. As such, you're able to BEXP slowplay one very key stat, which is Spd (compare to a 20/1 Aran, that has -2 Spd; trust me, it's a difference). He goes from narrowly escaping getting doubled to actually being able to do so with Resolve (and he's only 1 away from doubling Cats). On top of that, he's so bulky he can tank two 41 Atk Tigers (which are rare, but still). Add to that, the fact that he combos well with someone like Leonardo who maximizes Defence and even adds Atk). 

That thing there, that makes every difference in the word. I've had my doubts with this guy, and this is how he manages to get it going. 

 

8.

 

Meg

Meg is really fucking weird. She's a Knight that's supposed to excel in, like, Spd- but doesn't. At least not until she gets that 8 base Spd going.

okay, so let me empaphize on how badly she needs those first kills/levels/Exp ASAP. Without it, she's not getting out of getting doubled- which, ironically, kills the whole point of being a Knight. Everything will double and 1RKO her, otherwise. 

I'm trying really hard to make a case for Meg, but I seriously can't, which can only mean one thing: 

She's just bad.

 

Everyone knows it, no surprise here. But damn, she can't even take advantage of the BEXP trick (hellfuck even Laura can do that).

urgh

 

Big Fat Golden Goose Egg/10

 

Volug

I think I have some sort of fetish for using Volug. What's cooler than using some kind of Wolf "Jeigan"? Except he isn't. 

I actually did hear a couple of people say he's a sort of Jeigan, in the way that's he's way ahead of everyone at his time and "leeches" experience. You know, stuff like that. The cool thing, though, is that Volug doesn't really need kills. For starters, he's 1RKO'ing consistently throughout Part 1- I mean, yeah, he also stops doing it about halfway through, but still weakens enemies enough so that others can finish them off (while taking full advantage on building his strike, which is what you really want). He's your most mobile and terrifyingly durable character in your team before Tauroneo (he's able to take an extra hit over Sothe, thanks to the extra 14 HP). Some people like to call out his weakness towards fire magic, but it's not really anywhere as bad in practice as it is in paper. He gets around. 

So in Part 1 he's pretty much your 2nd best unit in the team, losing only to Sothe (and literally, only because of 2-range). Part 3, is where the real fun begins. He can finally remove Formshift and unveil his Ultimate Form fully-fleshed Laguz stats. S-rank Volugs doubles and 1RKO's Cats without Beastfoe. He even 1RKO's fuckingTigers with Adept and an Atk-boosting support. Hell, I didn't even get to the part he packs one of the best durabilities in the team. I mean fuck, he can take two hits from fuckingTigers. Did I also mention Earth support? It almost sounds like I'm making this up, but it's literally it. Funny how some people also seem to think he has no Part 4 value. But unlike Sothe, he's still actually pretty competent there. 

His only real weaknesses are 2-range, which only really matter in 3-12. Never had too much issues with his Gauge, which is obviously a universal Laguz thing.

okay I actually didn't know Volug was that fucking good until I pointed all of that outloud. And a last worth mentioning, that much like Sothe, he's basically doing all of this for free.

 

9.

Edited by Soul~!
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Huh... weren't you the outlier for Meg (in positive way)?

Also your sudden change of opinion really confuses me.

(or did you give her an average rating for all modes?)

 

In HM Meg can...

  • shove in 1-4
  • you can use her as a scare-crow against cats
  • she can even help to take out one of the myrms in 1-5 in the first turn

That automatically doesn't make her 0 for me, even in HM. She'd get a 2.

 

Serious question: How would you rate her if she joined one chapter earlier where the opponents can't double her (aside of the myrms)?

 

Also the reason, why I find Edward better in part 1 than in part 3 is simply that he's the only first tier unit (besides Jill with transfers) who can constantly double and oneround opponents.

Edited by Eleanor Hume
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I have no idea, I just know she's bad. I literally won't give her a 0, but she's no better than a 3. Liek, she ends up getting out of the "gets doubled" range about the same rate as Aran, but she doesn't harness his incredible Str/Def growths, and even her 2-range is shaky due to her average Skill and mediocre Skill growth. I might come back to her later, but I think the hate is rather justified.

Funny, she actually has pretty solid frontlining potential.

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Tauroneo

What can I say? He's basically The White Knight, and is God for the only two chapters he exists for, in Part 1. While he may as well be in terms of raw stats, he's still falling behind to the likes of Sothe & Volug, in terms of mobility. He's pretty usable in Part 3, although he isn't particularly special anymore (he can take some hits and retaliate decently). He may as well not exist for Part 4, even if he's around at 4-2.

But don't get me wrong, he does have a lot of room to improve. If only he existed longer, he'd be a lot better.

 

5.

 

Zihark

I hate it when people say Zihark may as well make Edward obselete, because he doesn't. In an actual side-by-side, he's only really winning if you're absolutely trying to justify this as an excuse not to train Edward in the first place. I find them pretty interchangable.

Base stat-wise, he's a lot like Sothe and Volug. He's good throughout all of Part 1, and doesn't need much of any Exp to work. One slight issue is, though, he's actually sort of lacking in terms of durability (at least as far as a promoted unit is concerned). He's not particularly stellar at dodging at first, either. Which is where his amazing Earth support comes in play (I like doing double Earth with Volug). Offensively, he's sort similiar to Sothe. He 1RKO's with Wind Edges thanks to Adept, which you should probably let on him, if you do plan of making him insane.

Zihark's Part 3 is very similiar to Edward's. They don't take hits well, but again, he reeaaally makes up for it with double Earth (in which he also has Nolan as a candidate). If you did decide to keep Adept on him, you can combo it with one of Wrath or Resolve (I prefer the latter, since it makes him virtually untouchable). Give him a forge, and he'll be dodgetanking and taking out numbers. His Part 4 is like any Swordmaster's, in which they're pretty good, as well as for the Tower.

 

8.5

 

Jill

I've never been much of a fan of her, but I do enjoy that awkward thing FE10 does (in this case, making a Wyvern Spd-based). And in spite of that, I'm definitely not blind to her crude performance.

Easily put, she competes with Haar for "best in the game". Her start is a bit shaky, but investing in her (in which we all know, is more than justified) in terms of resources reeeeaaaally pays off for you, and your team. She doesn't really need much more than an Angelic Robe and a Forge, but extras like an Energy Drop and Dracoshield really do help in the very start. She's your single best character in the Brigade by Parts 3, 4, and hell, even in the Tower.

Apparently giving a female Wyvern all the boons of a Peggie as well as the added benefits of being strong and tanky was a good idea.

 

9.5

 

EDIT:

- Sothe 9.5 > 9

- Made a list to keep track of the ratings.

- While I gave Zihark the same score and Edward & Nolan, Zihark is put one tier above to denote the small difference (in which he doesn't need much of any resource, while Edward and Nolan do). 

Edited by Soul~!
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On 1/28/2017 at 8:52 PM, Eleanor Hume said:

Sothe would get a 9 or 9.5 in part 1, but I have to judge the other parts too.

But here's a question: do you have to? What would you score Sothe if he just didn't exist after part 1? Or after part 3? Because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to lower his score for bad performance that he doesn't need to perform at all.

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