ITT: Soul ranks FE10 characters

[Junkhead]

I think it's not unreasonable. Like, I don't penalise his lack of God Mode post-Part 1, since it's mostly "extra credit". 

[Sweet_Basil]

How disappointing! I was hoping to hear some Meg-lightenment.

[Junkhead]

Me too. ):

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

4 hours ago, Florete said:

But here's a question: do you have to? What would you score Sothe if he just didn't exist after part 1? Or after part 3? Because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to lower his score for bad performance that he doesn't need to perform at all.

It's not like that you can ignore him entirely since his deployment for the tower is forced.

Sure, he's the only real potential user of baselard unless you want to waste a unit slot with Volke, but his stats will be unsatisfying at the end.

I still have to rate him in E-1 and E-3 (E-2 can be excluded since Ike can easily oneturn BK) and he's the worst combat unit in the endgame after the dragons.

 

Will train Meg in my next HM run.

I really need the experience!

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Sweet_Basil]

I've used her in HM but she needs that experience in 1-6-2 otherwise the max level I got her to was level 15 finishing 1-E, with a 2-turn in 1-6-2.

[Junkhead]

43 minutes ago, Eleanor Hume said:

It's not like that you can ignore him entirely since his deployment for the tower is forced.

Sure, he's the only real potential user of baselard unless you want to waste a unit slot with Volke, but his stats will be unsatisfying at the end.

I still have to rate him in E-1 and E-3 (E-2 can be excluded since Ike can easily oneturn BK) and he's the worst combat unit in the endgame after the dragons.

I'd be absolutely wrong if I say that Sothe is garbage (and worse than Sanaki) since he has a speed cap which allows him to double the auras. But still he joins underleveled the tower and normally there's not enough time to fix his level even with paragon unless you play to turtle the endgame.

The whole point is, it doesn't really matter if he's hardly lifting a finger by then, because he already did everything he did to do. That's how rather exclusive he is. 

And LOL he's not better than Sanaki at Endgame (or even Part 4) wtflol. Sanaki can actually damage stuff.

also Heather

23 minutes ago, Sweet_Basil said:

I've used her in HM but she needs that experience in 1-6-2 otherwise the max level I got her to was level 15 finishing 1-E, with a 2-turn in 1-6-2.

I got her to level 17 by 1-E with like 2-3 levels of BEXP or something. She's actually pretty boss, but I was playing casual as phuk (taking my time on chapters like 1-6-1 & 1-7). 

[Sweet_Basil]

I only gave her 1 level of Bexp and I wasn't playing slowly but I did give her several boss kills (1-4/1-5/1-8) 

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

5 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

The whole point is, it doesn't really matter if he's hardly lifting a finger by then, because he already did everything he did to do. That's how rather exclusive he is. 

And LOL he's not better than Sanaki at Endgame (or even Part 4) wtflol. Sanaki can actually damage stuff.

Even a third tier level 1 Sothe should be able to oneround any magic users in E-1 aside of the bosses.

Sure, Sanaki is better in E-3... so yeah...

[Junkhead]

Sanaki already 2HKO's everything, she just needs to double. That's automatically better, even if she's at base level. 

[Florete]

1 hour ago, Eleanor Hume said:

It's not like that you can ignore him entirely since his deployment for the tower is forced.

Sure, he's the only real potential user of baselard unless you want to waste a unit slot with Volke, but his stats will be unsatisfying at the end.

I still have to rate him in E-1 and E-3 (E-2 can be excluded since Ike can easily oneturn BK) and he's the worst combat unit in the endgame after the dragons.

But you can ignore him entirely. When he's force deployed, you can keep him away from enemies. And he's not even force deployed in the Endgame maps (you have to bring him, you don't have to field him).

I'm asking this because you said he's a 9.0-9.5 for part 1, but you "have to judge the other parts too." Thing is, you really don't. When a unit goes from good -> bad, you don't need to factor in their bad time because you don't need to use them during their bad time. So I'm just wondering if what you're saying is that your whole 9.0-9.5 thing is what he would be if he only existed in part 1 and his part 3 and 4 are dragging him down, or if his part 1 value alone is 9.0-9.5 but since the rest of the game exists he doesn't get that high overall. The latter makes sense (though I disagree with it), the former doesn't.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Also if I cut out Sothe's performance after part 1, then I have to do the same for Edward too because his main part is part 1 - and no - he's never really needed in part 3 if you have your bulky units like Nolan, Jill, Volug and maybe Aran. That means Edward would get a very high rating too (probably the same area like Mia) which seems to be kinda stupid.

 

As for Edward in part 3:

Sure you can give him earth-support and resolve, but it's just an option to focus on training of one character. At the end you'll be more screwed than helped. The earth-unit doesn't benefit from its affinity which is the least you want in FE10 HM. Evasion is the most important support stat, so you'll go for earth x earth and earth x Jill / Aran. Resolve on Zihark is the obvious better choice because of his affinity. Even with worst biorhythm he still has a high chance to dodge with his +22% evasion. Edward works better with wind edge / stormsword + wrath.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Junkhead]

So I skipped on Ilyana entirely, and people be, liek.

May as well reserve the whole thing for her.

 

Ilyana

As much I do have a bit of small appreciation towards, I can't see this going right...

okay so her bases are actually pretty solid. The part she screws at, much like Aran, is at that hideous Spd growth (for lack of a better word because FE10 standards). 13 Spd is pretty solid, and her Mag tends to be able to have her 2HKO'ing. Another problem, is that she leaves. So, what then? She takes up kills and resources from a team that's rather desperate, and leaves, only to join as arguably your worst unit in the GMs. It's like, what's the point? 

I can't even consider her "ability" to carry things over to the GMs a boon, since that may as well be like giving Meg a point for Shoving. fuk, at least she's a better Archer than Leonardo.

 

3.5

 

[Florete]

13 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Also if I cut out Sothe's performance after part 1, then I have to do the same for Edward too because his main part is part 1 - and no - he's never really needed in part 3 if you have your bulky units like Nolan, Jill, Volug and maybe Aran. That means Edward would get a very high rating too (probably the same area like Mia) which seems to be kinda stupid.

Not only do I not see what this has to do with what I said, you didn't answer my question.

[Junkhead]

18 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Also if I cut out Sothe's performance after part 1, then I have to do the same for Edward too because his main part is part 1 - and no - he's never really needed in part 3 if you have your bulky units like Nolan, Jill, Volug and maybe Aran. That means Edward would get a very high rating too (probably the same area like Mia) which seems to be kinda stupid.

 

As for Edward in part 3:

Sure you can give him earth-support and resolve, but it's just an option to focus on training of one character. At the end you'll be more screwed than helped. The earth-unit doesn't benefit from its affinity which is the least you want in FE10 HM. Evasion is the most important support stat, so you'll go for earth x earth and earth x Jill / Aran. Resolve on Zihark is the obvious better choice because of his affinity. Even with worst biorhythm he still has a high chance to dodge with his +22% evasion. Edward works better with wind edge / stormsword + wrath.

Edward getting at least the same score as Mia doesn't seem at all far-fetched if both are living up to their potential. What Mia has going is that she's pretty cheap (Adept and a forge) and is sort of "screwproof" (she'll double all of Part 3, with the added benefit of extra criticals in the forge and stuff). But the thing is, the context in which they're applied to matters as well. Like, there's no questioning Gatrie would be godlike for the DBs, but he ends up falling behind (no pun intended), if only because of stuff like slightly lower mobility and Spd cap (which I actually don't think are anywhere as bad). Mia's really good in her team, but you had another 3 guys (Haar, Titania & Ike) who are better. Her being great and 1RKO everything isn't as dramatic as it is if Edward were to be doing that in his chapters (something I find very much possible). 

I actually appreciate to be one of the only ones (if not, the only) to call me out on that issue:

A lot of the "setups" are proposed sound skewed in favour of a single unit. Do I deny it, though? Not entirely, but I also don't think it's wrong to do so. Take one of Jill or Nolan, for example. Would you consider it "a waste", were you to give them most of your resources? I doubt. And that's because you're sure that they'll end up paying off- which, as I've said many, many times, is why we're doing it in the first place. Hell, did I mention Edward only really takes two statboosters? Secret Book to cap Skill earlier, and only one of the two Angelic Robes to patch up his durability. Dracoshield is optional (as it won't change much, but still recommended).

Earth support isn't even exclusive to one pair. I always pair Nolan with Edward, as it gives them what they want (Avo, Hit & Def). I manage to get at least a B support on ZiharkxVolug by the end of Part 1 (and in a very tight LTC run), so it's not like they're missing out on anything. You can also train one of Jill or Nolan next to Edward. By the way HM is made, you're sort of bound to train two good units if you're going at a brisk pace.

[Junkhead]

Fiona

Unless you go out of your way to spoonfeed her kills and slow your pace at a turtle's, Fiona has noooooo saving grace, whatsover. Like, none. It's like IS literally went out of their way to give you a unit that sounds broken on paper (mounted unit with Earth affinity that good defensive growths, decent Mag base AND two innate skills?), only to have the game laugh at your attempt at using her. 

I tried and I tried. I looked at the numbers, and I even fucking estimated how many levels she would get through BEXP intake- which are roughly 3-4 levels, by the way. Let's say 4, as I'm feeling generous. And for the record, let's also assume that she gains two levels at 1-7 alone (since she literally doesn't exist for 1-8).

While we're at it, I decided to give her statboosters and those 4 BEXP levels:

lvl 15

HP: 33 (Angelic Robex2)
Str: 11 (Energy Drop)
Mag: 8 (Spirit Dust)
Skill: 11 (Secret Book)
Spd: 15 (+4)
Luck: 12 (+4)
Def: 15 (Dracoshield) (+4)
Res: 7

 

C Leo (+1 Atk/Def/8 Avo)

A fuckin Max Mt (15 Mt)/-2 Wt Steel Forge

 

What's her performance like, then?

She still fails to 2HKO Soldiers and Fighters, but does on Myrmidons, Archers and Mages (duh). The only cool thing about this is that she doesn't get doubled and even Fighters come short of 2HKO'ing her. Soldiers 4HKO. Only one of thte Myrmidons doubles for 5, so that's a 7HKO. 

Again, assuming we're super generous and not turtling (you know, Rafiel helps), she gets out at lvl.17. Assuming we've literally routed the map, would net us an extra amount of BEXP to let her level one more time before a Seal;

3-6:

lvl 18/1

HP: 36 (Angelic Robe)
Str: 13 (Energy Drop)
Mag: 11 (Spirit Dust)
Skill: 13 (Secret Book)
Spd: 18
Luck: 14
Def: 18 (Dracoshield)
Res: 10

 

C Leo
 

Performance:

The most common Tigers deal 20 Dmg on her, while Cats deal between 10-12 while doubling. The cool thing, that thinks to base Imbue, she is able to restore 11 HP at the start of each turn...and that's about it. Even assuming we're mad enough to give her Beastfoe, she fails to 1HKO Tigers, 1HKO's most Cats except for the lvl.17 ones. 

Let alone the fact that she can't even move in this map. 

 

Summary?

Despite that I gave her literally every single statbooster and resource she still manages to blow. Hell, you could make something useful of Meg, and even fucking Laura by doing this. Literally, anyone- bar Fiona.

 

Made me do a long-ass review to have every angle of the scope to see how terrible she is. LOL. Can't say it wasn't fun.

 

 

FreeImbue+Savior/10

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

On 1.2.2017 at 11:12 PM, Florete said:

Not only do I not see what this has to do with what I said, you didn't answer my question.

 

On 31.1.2017 at 8:34 AM, Florete said:

But you can ignore him entirely. When he's force deployed, you can keep him away from enemies. And he's not even force deployed in the Endgame maps (you have to bring him, you don't have to field him).

I'm asking this because you said he's a 9.0-9.5 for part 1, but you "have to judge the other parts too." Thing is, you really don't. When a unit goes from good -> bad, you don't need to factor in their bad time because you don't need to use them during their bad time. So I'm just wondering if what you're saying is that your whole 9.0-9.5 thing is what he would be if he only existed in part 1 and his part 3 and 4 are dragging him down, or if his part 1 value alone is 9.0-9.5 but since the rest of the game exists he doesn't get that high overall. The latter makes sense (though I disagree with it), the former doesn't.

Also for part 4, ok, I could ignore him because you can choose your groups, and 4-3 is exclusive terrain for fliers, mages and Skrimir.

But for part 3 I have to rate to him since the number of usable units is still low. He's by far better than in part 4 because of beastkiller but still not slightly better than most others.

(would give him 8.5 if I excluded part 4)

On 2.2.2017 at 4:10 AM, Soul~! said:

Earth support isn't even exclusive to one pair. I always pair Nolan with Edward, as it gives them what they want (Avo, Hit & Def). I manage to get at least a B support on ZiharkxVolug by the end of Part 1 (and in a very tight LTC run), so it's not like they're missing out on anything. You can also train one of Jill or Nolan next to Edward. By the way HM is made, you're sort of bound to train two good units if you're going at a brisk pace.

Actually yeah, the fact that Edward is more needed than Mia justifies to give both a similar rating, although of course Mia is the obvious endgame choice because she's the easiest to rise.

Also I don't like to screw up Nolan's support, even if his extra defense with Edward could require less effort to make him taking two tiger hits in part 3. The reasons why Nolan is so much better than most fighters in FE are his affinity and speed. Both combined makes him turn into a great dodgetank, and you really need dodging in part 3.

Volug could take rather a worse support (=> Edward) because he can take two tigers anyways with his bases, and his base speed is already high enough to dodge more than Nolan does.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Magilou

[Junkhead]

yay always love actually putting the numbers and the science into something for someone to say "but this isnt because bias"

[Junkhead]

LEA

 

Tormod

Funny how the guy who's heavily crippled by his (lack of) availability, is actually one of the better mage units in this game- at least, utility-wise. 

For starters, he does pack surprisingly solid concrete durability for any one mage unit. If anything, it's actually closer to Sothe's durability and fucking outtanks Zihark, of all people (aka, a frontliner). His offense definitely doesn't fall behind, however. It's among the better ones in your team, considering he hits Res, doubles consistently and even does so at 1-2 range. He's pretty clutch in the only two (and a half) chapters, considering he's one of the few units other than your OP monsters like Nailah & Muarim who can 1RKO Brigands. And in 1-E, where everyone's struggling to fucking land a hit, he still keeps it up. 

Beyond that, there's actually not that much to say. He may as well not exist for 4-4, but can still bash a few doors down with Meteor (you know, for whatever it's worth). Most of his performance is, like, 2 chapters he does really well in. 

Really wish I had more time to use him.

 

4.5

 

Muarim

Muarim is a little bit in the opposite direction of where Tormod comes from. While he's pretty much a Royal for his side of Part 1, he doesn't share the luxury that is Formshift. This is pretty much his one, real weakness. Lack of 2-range aids the cause, as is the reason he's not really better than Tormod. Once he does transform, he's a hell of a monster. His unstransformed durability is pretty silly as it is (gets, like, 4RKO'd), and let alone what he does when it doubles. He's never really at a risk of dying, shares stupid mobility with the likes of Volug & Nailah and the rest of his stats are pretty much self-explanatory. 

So, remember when I said he was sort of the opposite of Tormod? By that, I meant he actually does have value beyond his Part 1 performance. At the start of 4-4, he can pack two 15-Capacity skills. You know what that means? He can combo one of Resolve with something like Paragon, Adept or Wrath. This aids his offense tremendously, and even more so for his durability. It won't take long until he can actually pull his own weight, as well as help with the skirmish.

He's basically Nailah without Formshift in Part 1(which, again, makes a hell of a difference). His lack of 2-range as well as him having to deal with a gauge is what I think puts him under Tormod, at least in Part 1.

 

4.5

 

Vika

Vika's underrated.

As a utility unit, she pretty much holds monopoly at rescuing people at the swamp. Her durability is by no means anything to call home about, as well as her mobility not taking a whole lot of toll at 1-E, thanks to flight (which, again, Rescuing Services). Her offense is actually still among your better troops, as she packs about the exact same Atk as Volug and Sothe. But, again, most of her worth comes in how she's rather unique in her role to the team, at the time. Rescuing people at the swamp nets extra BEXP, and rescuing Rafiel up the ledges is what makes the whole process a whole lot faster (and you really want Rafiel up there, trust me). 

I wish here level weren't so so so low, that way I could at least pummel something like Tear+Adept into her by 4-4 and have her be an actual Endgame candidate. Bird Laguz are so fucking awesome.

 

4.5

Edited February 23, 2017 by Soul~!

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

• Seriously Vika was such pain to train in my trash tier run, even harder than Lyre. Sure, she's good in part 1 because she can oneround stuff, but she needs at least strike level S to become slightly useful in 4-4, NO seriously she needs S+. Her major problem is that she can't get many levels in part 1 due to her low exp. gain. In part 4 she'll be totally underleveled and you can't fix her with bexp. easily due to her bad strength growth. With A strike she does like 2x3 damage to physical enemies who have a high critchance against her - fantastic ;/ Seriously she was the worst, simply because you can't fix her low stats in 4-4 unlike Tormod's by giving him a forged tome.
• Muarim can well tank enough in 4-4 despite he gets doubled by several enemies. Without him, Vika and Tormod would be swiss cheese at the end of turn 1.
• Tormod is better than Vika in part 1, and even in 4-4 it's by far not as tedious to train him as Vika. Base Tormod with resolve can even double everyone except for swordmasters. Haven't given to him yet, but it's an interesting skill for him combined with a forged thunder tome.

 

[Junkhead]

None of that applies because I'm not assuming using them beyond Part 1, which is where their value lies. Muarim, on the other hand, has it a lot better (and actually realistic) in getting a shot past Part 1. 

30 AS (Resolve Tormod) stops doubling at that point. Enemies have about 27+ AS, there.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Quote

None of that applies because I'm not assuming using them beyond Part 1, which is where their value lies. Muarim, on the other hand, has it a lot better (and actually realistic) in getting a shot past Part 1. 

... Then I don't understand why you ranked Muarim lower than the other two although he's the only one who can deal with several enemies and can use tons of skills to negate his weaknesses (nullify, adept, resolve...)

Quote

30 AS (Resolve Tormod) stops doubling at that point. Enemies have about 27+ AS, there.

I think only a few warriors have >26 speed. Halberdiers, snipers and the stationary generals next to Oliver have 25-26.

[Junkhead]

Again, it's on their Part 1 performance. I do think I was wrong in putting him lower than them, as the added bonus of actual usability would at least close the edge...

[Sweet_Basil]

If you're playing on Normal/Easy then Vika isn't so bad, you can just bexp her to level 30 and give her tear + adept. 

[Junkhead]

Well, yeah, but this is HM. 

[Sweet_Basil]

For Hard mode? Last time I bexp'd her to level 15 or 20 I can't remember which one, but it allowed her to equip skills and I gave her paragon. Then I nurse-fed her kills. Or you can just boss abuse in part 1 to get her to S/SS strike.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Sweet_Basil