Gaiden Has Great Map Design

[Jotari]

So with Shadows of Valencia creating a whole stir, there's plenty of topics on its own board about what should and shouldn't be changed. One that I see quite a lot is the map design. And it's not surprising. At first glance the maps in Gaiden look very bland. Especially in Chapter 1. They're mostly plains with wide open spaces and they even commit the cardinal sin of copy and pasting maps. However having just finished playing Gaiden after years of procrastination, I'm of the perhaps controversial opinion that the maps in Gaiden are fantastically well designed and a lot more varied than you might think. While Alm mostly fights in fields and fortress like a typical early era lord, Celica has fun fighting on ships, graveyards, forests and and mires. Of which I'm sure will look absolutely delightful when rendered in HD. But moving away from the aesthetic of the maps, let's focus on what map design is really about. The gameplay.

Gaiden stands apart from most other Fire Emblem games. Obviously by its mechanics, but there's one point I've never seen anyone mention before and it really surprised me. The enemies in this game hit hard. Remember that one chapter in Awakening where you had to fight the 12 Dead Lords. It was a pretty open map with a few key choke points in between ruins. There was only 12 enemies but they were all wielding really powerful weapons so you had to very carefully plan how you would kill them. That's basically the design philosophy of this game. Typically Fire Emblem will swarm you with weak units who deal small amounts of damage that build up. Enemy Phase has a massive focus since that's where you deal the most damage to the enemy army due to them killing themselves on your counter attacks. Gaiden is a different beast. Enemies are powerful but few. This game let's you deploy practically your entire army for 80% of the game and frequently you will actually be out numbering your enemy, or at least matching them for numbers. This leads to radically different play styles. Figuring out exactly which enemy to defeat on player phase is the focus instead of figuring out how to do the most damage and survive on enemy phase. There is still an element of this with summoners who summon weak enemies that pose little threat but enemy summoners are typically units you need to defeat very fast least their monsters eventually overrun you.

So what does this change in style mean for map design? Practically everything. In most Fire Emblem games you need to utilize choke points and maneuver around the map to reach your goal. In Gaiden the battles are all out brawls. All your enemy's move straight for you (except the Shamans and the healers, but tellingly the game gives you warp very early on and Dear not much later for dealing with these threats) and more than ever you need to figure out exactly how much distance is between you and them (which would be lovely to actually highlight ala modern games but you take what you get). There's little to no baiting enemies and once you deal enough damage, enemies will actually retreat and try to reach the many health restoring tiles that are found on most maps. This does not however mean that all the maps are the same to get the same result. They're not. The differ in sometimes very subtle but always very meaningful ways. Exactly where a bridge or a forest is (especially with the massive avoid boost terrain gives) completely effects how the battle will pan out. Range is also very important. In most Fire Emblem games 3 range attacks is a very rare commodity. Here it's the basic level for Archers and can soon be upgraded to five range. Mages also get a three range spell. Choke points definitely still exist in Gaiden but while in other games they're mainly about limiting the number of enemies that can attack your unit in one turn, here it's really about holding a strong enemy off and pelting them from as many directions as possible with arrows and long range spells. I've seen people advocate for longer bow range in the past and I've always been anxious about it precisely because the number of attacks a unit can receive on enemy phase is such a critical role of most Fire Emblem games but Gaiden definitely shows how it can be an excellent idea so long as it's implemented in a way that follows the core idea of the gameplay. Unless you're dealing with a Shaman, it's unlikely you'll be seeing five or six units focus on one of your units in a single turn in Gaiden, At most you'll be facing three attacks on a strong unit you've intentionally place in the path of your enemy. While I'm very satisfied with what Fire Emblem ultimately ended up becoming after Gaiden, a game or two designed like this certainly wouldn't go amiss in the modern day. Hmm, we'll see how Shadows of Valencia contributes to the series as  a whole in the future.

TL;DR, while they might look empty and not very exciting at first glance, the maps in Gaiden are very well designed precisely because Gaiden is designed so completely differently from every other Fire Emblem game.

And in defense of the copy and pasting, it's not nearly as prevalent as you might think. Okay pretty much all of the dungeon areas are he same empty room but even discounting them this game has an immense number of maps for its time. We're talking like 40+ and they only resort to copy and pasting a few fields in Alm's route. Considering this is a NES game I think its quite impressive. Of course I hope they still remove the duplicated maps in the remake but I don't believe it should be considered points against the game's overall map design. I should also add that while the map design is good, it's not quite perfect. The most glaring flaw is that movement penalties for moving through swamp is way too high, at last considering there's sometimes no alternative to getting to a certain place other than slowly slogging your army through poisonous swamp. That one chapter where a shaman boss is constantly summoning zombie dragons is a standout example.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Jotari

[TDAWS_MP132]

I agree with much of what you posted, many of these are my thoughts exactly!

I think that while some maps are most definitely in need of some work, many of the maps are excellent. In fact, Gaiden does a great job of having memorable maps. The map in Ch 1 where there is a powerful enemy merc boss who starts far from his allies, but comes over the mountains and has a leather shield. The map while Valbar and Co. battle Daha, and Celica's forces arrive mid battle. The sea shire map with a single very powerful draco zombie.  

I don't think in general that Gaiden's map design is bad, rather I think it is the terrain design, if you will. Many maps have large open expanses with either too little or too much terrain, which can make the turn by turn travel a slog. I do, however, like how important terrain bonuses are in Gaiden's physical combat.

I was thinking about this the other day. Ch 4's Fear Mountain was remade already for fates as a dlc map. I compared the two map's terrain, and while fates moves around and adds more tree terrain to improve the map, the core of the map remains the same. (Witches spawn from the mountain fort, while an army of physical units comes from the south.) If SoV keeps the core of the maps design intact, while modifying the terrain, it could have some truly amazing maps.   

[LordTemps]

I havent have the cluest in the but im already hyped for this SVE. Especially the arms hehe. Kinda old school yet its a refreshing style to the game.
I just hope they wont fail on the system that was only recent like the weapon triangle and weapon vulnerability and such etc.

Just hoping they would bring back some of the Fates feature like the PVP and Mycastle thing 

Limited Edition here I come!

[SRC]

These are rationalizations for poor map design then reasons why the map designs are great. Sure, Gaiden works as a game, but it's much more in spite of its map design than because of it. There are just too many maps that are just have way too much going on in them (Celica chapters 3/4) and maps that have nothing going on at all (most Alm maps) to say that they are beneficial to gameplay. 

Having large open spaces does not add any interesting to the game like putting chokepoints at a premium. It just means that you park your best 1-2 units out in front while most of your utility units get to barely do anything or flat out go run and hide because the entire map is a frontline. 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by SRC

[Valkama]

My problem with Gaiden maps is they are such a chore to play without a warp user and especially Celica's maps where you have to exploit the revive mechanic in order to get a warp user. The other thing I find very annoying about maps is all the terrain which makes it incredibly annoying to deal with enemies because of all the avoid they are given. I normally don't mind terrain but in Gaiden the bonuses are very high and you already don't have the best hit rates and you have almost no way of countering it outside of a very low chance of getting the moonlight lance. 1-5 is particularly frustrating because getting the enemies off the terrain feels like such a huge chore especially for that archer since he has such a long range, he'll never feel the need to move off it. Gaiden maps are decent but I don't think any of them are really exceptional displays of good map design and most of them have a lot of wasted space.

[General Horace]

I get what you're trying to say, but it's really a bit of a stretch.  Terrain bonuses really ruin a lot of maps (floor tiles......) and i've picked out a few that are especially bad below (not because of terrain, because every single indoor map is a crapshoot because you perpetually have 70 hit).

 

You get empty squares with generic enemies (usually monsters) in every single dungeon until late in the game.  I imagine they're designed this way for easy grinding if you want to do so, but the enemies give so little exp in these maps its counterintutive anyway.

 

 

What?  There are 6 (weak) enemies on a massive map where a lot of your party has 4-5 movement.  FE4 is harped on for having huge maps, but they have lots of mobile units, road tiles and loads of enemies.  I don't see any defence for a map like this.  The worst part is that the cavaliers will run away if you don't finish them off and most of your units won't be able to catch up to them.

 

Shaman can spawn up to 7 (it's the most ive seen on a turn) meatshields per turn, and nobody in your party will be able to one round them since they have so much HP (unless Celica has angel).  In addition to that, they're incredibly weak and your party has virtually no chance of death.  You can kill the shaman to kill all the summons, but he's on a fort so he's tough to hit, and you still have to plow through useless enemies to reach him in the first place.  I think it is the first summoner of the game, but you could have included other enemies on the map as well, his summons are totally worthless.

The boat maps are all pretty bad, they're all very similar.

 

 

Excluding Palla and Catria, your entire party has 1-2 movement in desert tiles, meaning you'll take ~9-10 turns to even make it to the fort.  You could try to just kill everything with the pegasus sisters (a lot of maps are like this on Celica route, loads of terrain that you have to slog through, and you get no warp unless you kill off Silk/Teeta on Alm route), but there's a steel bow sniper on either a fort or floor tile, so even if you try to kill him (he thankfully doens't oneshot the pegasi) you have terrible hitrates and if Palla + Catria miss 1/4 attacks the boss will live and retreat back to a fort tile, so you're basically forced to get lucky or essentially start the map on turn 10.  Worst map in the game, imo.  The Deen/Sonia map is pretty bad too, especially Sonia's since it's a combination of loads of desert and warping witches.

 

 

another Celica route map (these are common in chapter 4, your party starts on one side of a swamp that damages your units with the enemies on the other side, again with no warp).   Most of the Celica maps are just begging you to just use Palla and Catria and ignore the rest of your party because nobody likes moving your units 2 spaces through swamps for the first 5 turns.  There are also three summoners on this map that make your life a lot worse if you don't just goon them with the pegasi.

 

And most of gaidens maps are like this.  Some of them are passable, and many people just give Gaiden's map a pass because it's a NES game, but FE1's maps were actually fairly decent.  This game does play differently yes, but when your solution to every single map is the same (Alm's route = warp alm or other strong unit onto fort near enemies and watch him go to town and Celica's maps after all the bad boat maps are "fly pegasi over terrain that takes everyone else 5 times longer to cross and kill enemies before they get there) things get stale pretty quickly.  

[FionordeQuester]

...Did Horace just pull two spoilers inside a spoiler within a spoiler that's also INSIDE another spoiler?

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, General Horace said:

I get what you're trying to say, but it's really a bit of a stretch.  Terrain bonuses really ruin a lot of maps (floor tiles......) and i've picked out a few that are especially bad below (not because of terrain, because every single indoor map is a crapshoot because you perpetually have 70 hit).

 

 

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You get empty squares with generic enemies (usually monsters) in every single dungeon until late in the game.  I imagine they're designed this way for easy grinding if you want to do so, but the enemies give so little exp in these maps its counterintutive anyway.

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

What?  There are 6 (weak) enemies on a massive map where a lot of your party has 4-5 movement.  FE4 is harped on for having huge maps, but they have lots of mobile units, road tiles and loads of enemies.  I don't see any defence for a map like this.  The worst part is that the cavaliers will run away if you don't finish them off and most of your units won't be able to catch up to them.

 

 

  Hide contents

 

Shaman can spawn up to 7 (it's the most ive seen on a turn) meatshields per turn, and nobody in your party will be able to one round them since they have so much HP (unless Celica has angel).  In addition to that, they're incredibly weak and your party has virtually no chance of death.  You can kill the shaman to kill all the summons, but he's on a fort so he's tough to hit, and you still have to plow through useless enemies to reach him in the first place.  I think it is the first summoner of the game, but you could have included other enemies on the map as well, his summons are totally worthless.

The boat maps are all pretty bad, they're all very similar.

 

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Excluding Palla and Catria, your entire party has 1-2 movement in desert tiles, meaning you'll take ~9-10 turns to even make it to the fort.  You could try to just kill everything with the pegasus sisters (a lot of maps are like this on Celica route, loads of terrain that you have to slog through, and you get no warp unless you kill off Silk/Teeta on Alm route), but there's a steel bow sniper on either a fort or floor tile, so even if you try to kill him (he thankfully doens't oneshot the pegasi) you have terrible hitrates and if Palla + Catria miss 1/4 attacks the boss will live and retreat back to a fort tile, so you're basically forced to get lucky or essentially start the map on turn 10.  Worst map in the game, imo.  The Deen/Sonia map is pretty bad too, especially Sonia's since it's a combination of loads of desert and warping witches.

 

 

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another Celica route map (these are common in chapter 4, your party starts on one side of a swamp that damages your units with the enemies on the other side, again with no warp).   Most of the Celica maps are just begging you to just use Palla and Catria and ignore the rest of your party because nobody likes moving your units 2 spaces through swamps for the first 5 turns.  There are also three summoners on this map that make your life a lot worse if you don't just goon them with the pegasi.

 

And most of gaidens maps are like this.  Some of them are passable, and many people just give Gaiden's map a pass because it's a NES game, but FE1's maps were actually fairly decent.  This game does play differently yes, but when your solution to every single map is the same (Alm's route = warp alm or other strong unit onto fort near enemies and watch him go to town and Celica's maps after all the bad boat maps are "fly pegasi over terrain that takes everyone else 5 times longer to cross and kill enemies before they get there) things get stale pretty quickly.  

 

 

 

 

You mind telling me where you got those images? I would have actually brought up specific examples if I had  full resource only I couldn't find one (and since one obviously exists since you pulled maps from it, I think the site would benefit greatly from having it themselves). Anyway to focus on your points.

Terrain and the River Map

Spoiler

Overall yes, the avoid rate on terrain is a bit too high in Gaiden and I expect to see that changed in the remake. However I do like how important it is to utilize the terrain in order to succeed, both for you and your enemies. This is where adding in the weapon triangle to get that same effect would improve the game a fair amount since you could still get those same positive effects while giving the player the ability to get around it. I actually think Sword of Seals' hard mode strikes a good balance with this though I'm probably in the minority there without how often I hear people complaining about hitrates in FE6. The importance of terrain however does affect the maps a large amount. In that first one with the paladin note how the closest piece of terrain is just outside of Alm's movement range. It'll take two turns for the player to get a unit on that forest meaning they're immediately faced with the decision to use it as cover in the ensuing battle, or to retreat back and prevent the enemy from the other forest squares nearby that they can get to easier with their higher movement. The size of the map also shouldn't be compared to Holy War or indeed many other large maps in the series because it doesn't serve the same function as other large maps in the series (which was sort of the point of my initial post, Gaiden is a different beast to other Fire Emblem and thus its maps shouldn't be judged on the same criteria). It's not a map you have to travel across to reach the end of. Almost all of your fighting is going to be done in that bottom section where you start off. In effect its basically a small map with a set of reinforcements however unlike typical reinforcements you can actually see them approaching before they "spawn" (which coming to think of it could have been a really cool feature in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn where you can see a fair amount of space rendered outside the map). And while enemies retreating to heal might be annoying for the player, I still think it's an example of good game design. It forces the player to make certain choices and account for certain contingencies. Note how there is a single bridge separating the bottom half and the top half. Once the player is aware that all weakened enemies in the game will try to heal themselves if possible, they should be able to note the two healing squares in the top half and work out that you can place a unit on the choke point to cut off the enemy's retreat. This map is an example of a map that is later cloned for Zeke's boss map which is  rather amusing case of watching two enemy armies kill themselves off each other and then mopping up the remains. Strange how they didn't require you to have Tatiana walk up and speak with him (consistent with his ability to speak to Marth over a mountain range in Shadow Dragon though!). If they are going to change the maps that are copy and pasted I wonder which of these two maps will feature the river and bridge crossing.

The Dungeon Maps

Spoiler

So my talk of terrain led me naturally in to the river map, I have to back peddle to mention the dungeon maps. Yes, they are clearly designed more in mind to have a battle than to be any sort of active map and I think that's generally okay. I would of course love if they were more varied (and love if the dungeons weren't just one straight path, which with the 3D exploration and overworld enemy encounters seems like it will be the case in the remake) but for what it is it serves its purpose. And even in defense of these maps I think they do lead to some interesting play we don't see often in the series due to it's very small size. The only other example I can think of with something like this is Thracia's 4x (the one where you first find Ced). The small size means exactly how you position your units and protect your weaker ones is crucial. Unfortunately offset with the maps tendency to have weak enemies that don't threaten your army much but some of the shrines to feature troublesome gargoyles and a few zombie dragons that work to this strength (more so in the former as in the later your likely going to just put up a wall of your strong units nd have Celica nuke them with angel from behind. Funnily enough though that does happen to be a great map for grinding).

First Shaman Map

Spoiler

I think including other enemies on this map would have been against the point of this map. It's purpose is to teach you about the summoning mechanic and it does so very well. The shaman is located some distance away meaning it will take a turn or two to reach him which in turn will mean he will undoubtedly have some zombies summoned that you must deal with. The goal of this map is to tech the player that shamans are enemies that need to die quickly because their weak monsters will overwhelm you given the chance. You need to cut a path towards the Shaman, using your own units as a wall. You have seven units at this point, you only need four to form a vertical wall that lets you stick your three spell casters behind to launch spells at range. However you will eventually have to risk putting one of your spell casters forward into the hoard because defeating the shaman with a physical unit it quite difficult due to its high avoid and powerful (but slightly low accuracy) counter attack. This helps to stop the map being too easy. ll in all a teaching experience but also a challenge. For the sake of consistency though it would be great if Shaman's in this game would spawn a constant number of enemies instead of a random amount. Especially when the randomness can spawn so many.

The Desert Map

Spoiler

I actually enjoyed this map quite a bit. The worst map by far in my opinion is the one with the shaman boss who summons draco zombies (as mentioned in the opening. That one definitely embodies let the pegasus sisters do everything). Turn 10 for a start is a bit of an exaggeration. It takes about four or five turns to get most of your units up there and in that time you're using the pegasus sisters to bait and deal with the mercenaries and mages. In my run through they hadn't even dealt with them fully by the time my main army arrived, though I was hesitant to charge too much with them as I assumed default bows deal additional damage to flying units, something I only discovered was not the case in end game. Still, the boss with the steel bow does make sure to keep your pegasusi in check and stop them from stomping the map. Here is another example of a map where range is very important as the enemy archers can shoot you from over the walls and you can do the same. How you deal with the enemy sniper is also critical as he can snipe from a much larger distance (but as you say, fortunately he's rigged to be weak enough that he won't quite be one shotting your units. I even had mages surviving a hit from him). I think baiting him to come out of the fortress is the intended strategy since. like in the river map, you can place someone on the stirs to cut off his retreat (as well as dog pile him if you're not still dealing with mercenaries/mages). However cutting off the retreat can also be very dangerous for your unit (who likely won't be the sturdy Valbar due to his movement) due to those archers being able to attack from so many squares surrounding it. Picking them off with lightning and your own archer(s) is key. All in all I find this much more tolerable than a lot of desert maps in the series and I think it made more interesting due to the desert terrain than it would be if it was a straight up fortress on  plain.

Soina's Map

Spoiler

Can't speak for Deen's map as I've already played the game once (and look at me acting like I'm the big expert! Remember to take everything i say with a grain of salt) I actually found Sonia's map badly designed not because of the desert or the witches but because it was actually rather easy. The witches don't swarm you all at once and instead come in groups of twos or threes letting you pick them off easily as they expose themselves to your entire army. Maybe it's the RNG and sometimes the swarm you all at once but for me they were playing way too nice. I actually do like the idea of a map where you're basically exposed at all times and figuring out how best to from a wall is key but this wasn't it. Even the regular non witches come at you pretty rapidly at their own pace but that just encourages you to not move. Maybe you're still meant to be dealing with the witchs at that point and I just got lucky? All in all it reminds me a lot of the Greil Mercenaries Vs the Dawn Brigade swamp map in Radiant Dawn however unlike that map there's absolutely no motivation for you to get off your ass and do something leading to a map where you just sit there and win in a few turns.

Swamp Map

Spoiler

Yeah that map can go die in a hole. Second worst in the game by a long mile. Only saving grace is that the shamans should be pretty manageable due to access to dear by this point. Still, there should definitely be some alternate route rather than slogging through poisonous swamp.

 

[General Horace]

I got all the maps from http://www.fireemblemwod.com/

It has all the maps from FE1-FE13, no fates maps yet, among other stuff.  It's a really useful site.  It's spanish though, but still very easy to navigate.

[FionordeQuester]

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

You mind telling me where you got those images? I would have actually brought up specific examples if I had  full resource only I couldn't find one (and since one obviously exists since you pulled maps from it, I think the site would benefit greatly from having it themselves). Anyway to focus on your points.

Terrain and the River Map

  Hide contents

Overall yes, the avoid rate on terrain is a bit too high in Gaiden and I expect to see that changed in the remake. However I do like how important it is to utilize the terrain in order to succeed, both for you and your enemies. This is where adding in the weapon triangle to get that same effect would improve the game a fair amount since you could still get those same positive effects while giving the player the ability to get around it. I actually think Sword of Seals' hard mode strikes a good balance with this though I'm probably in the minority there without how often I hear people complaining about hitrates in FE6. The importance of terrain however does affect the maps a large amount. In that first one with the paladin note how the closest piece of terrain is just outside of Alm's movement range. It'll take two turns for the player to get a unit on that forest meaning they're immediately faced with the decision to use it as cover in the ensuing battle, or to retreat back and prevent the enemy from the other forest squares nearby that they can get to easier with their higher movement. The size of the map also shouldn't be compared to Holy War or indeed many other large maps in the series because it doesn't serve the same function as other large maps in the series (which was sort of the point of my initial post, Gaiden is a different beast to other Fire Emblem and thus its maps shouldn't be judged on the same criteria). It's not a map you have to travel across to reach the end of. Almost all of your fighting is going to be done in that bottom section where you start off. In effect its basically a small map with a set of reinforcements however unlike typical reinforcements you can actually see them approaching before they "spawn" (which coming to think of it could have been a really cool feature in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn where you can see a fair amount of space rendered outside the map). And while enemies retreating to heal might be annoying for the player, I still think it's an example of good game design. It forces the player to make certain choices and account for certain contingencies. Note how there is a single bridge separating the bottom half and the top half. Once the player is aware that all weakened enemies in the game will try to heal themselves if possible, they should be able to note the two healing squares in the top half and work out that you can place a unit on the choke point to cut off the enemy's retreat. This map is an example of a map that is later cloned for Zeke's boss map which is  rather amusing case of watching two enemy armies kill themselves off each other and then mopping up the remains. Strange how they didn't require you to have Tatiana walk up and speak with him (consistent with his ability to speak to Marth over a mountain range in Shadow Dragon though!). If they are going to change the maps that are copy and pasted I wonder which of these two maps will feature the river and bridge crossing.

The Dungeon Maps

  Reveal hidden contents

So my talk of terrain led me naturally in to the river map, I have to back peddle to mention the dungeon maps. Yes, they are clearly designed more in mind to have a battle than to be any sort of active map and I think that's generally okay. I would of course love if they were more varied (and love if the dungeons weren't just one straight path, which with the 3D exploration and overworld enemy encounters seems like it will be the case in the remake) but for what it is it serves its purpose. And even in defense of these maps I think they do lead to some interesting play we don't see often in the series due to it's very small size. The only other example I can think of with something like this is Thracia's 4x (the one where you first find Ced). The small size means exactly how you position your units and protect your weaker ones is crucial. Unfortunately offset with the maps tendency to have weak enemies that don't threaten your army much but some of the shrines to feature troublesome gargoyles and a few zombie dragons that work to this strength (more so in the former as in the later your likely going to just put up a wall of your strong units nd have Celica nuke them with angel from behind. Funnily enough though that does happen to be a great map for grinding).

First Shaman Map

  Reveal hidden contents

I think including other enemies on this map would have been against the point of this map. It's purpose is to teach you about the summoning mechanic and it does so very well. The shaman is located some distance away meaning it will take a turn or two to reach him which in turn will mean he will undoubtedly have some zombies summoned that you must deal with. The goal of this map is to tech the player that shamans are enemies that need to die quickly because their weak monsters will overwhelm you given the chance. You need to cut a path towards the Shaman, using your own units as a wall. You have seven units at this point, you only need four to form a vertical wall that lets you stick your three spell casters behind to launch spells at range. However you will eventually have to risk putting one of your spell casters forward into the hoard because defeating the shaman with a physical unit it quite difficult due to its high avoid and powerful (but slightly low accuracy) counter attack. This helps to stop the map being too easy. ll in all a teaching experience but also a challenge. For the sake of consistency though it would be great if Shaman's in this game would spawn a constant number of enemies instead of a random amount. Especially when the randomness can spawn so many.

The Desert Map

  Reveal hidden contents

I actually enjoyed this map quite a bit. The worst map by far in my opinion is the one with the shaman boss who summons draco zombies (as mentioned in the opening. That one definitely embodies let the pegasus sisters do everything). Turn 10 for a start is a bit of an exaggeration. It takes about four or five turns to get most of your units up there and in that time you're using the pegasus sisters to bait and deal with the mercenaries and mages. In my run through they hadn't even dealt with them fully by the time my main army arrived, though I was hesitant to charge too much with them as I assumed default bows deal additional damage to flying units, something I only discovered was not the case in end game. Still, the boss with the steel bow does make sure to keep your pegasusi in check and stop them from stomping the map. Here is another example of a map where range is very important as the enemy archers can shoot you from over the walls and you can do the same. How you deal with the enemy sniper is also critical as he can snipe from a much larger distance (but as you say, fortunately he's rigged to be weak enough that he won't quite be one shotting your units. I even had mages surviving a hit from him). I think baiting him to come out of the fortress is the intended strategy since. like in the river map, you can place someone on the stirs to cut off his retreat (as well as dog pile him if you're not still dealing with mercenaries/mages). However cutting off the retreat can also be very dangerous for your unit (who likely won't be the sturdy Valbar due to his movement) due to those archers being able to attack from so many squares surrounding it. Picking them off with lightning and your own archer(s) is key. All in all I find this much more tolerable than a lot of desert maps in the series and I think it made more interesting due to the desert terrain than it would be if it was a straight up fortress on  plain.

Soina's Map

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Can't speak for Deen's map as I've already played the game once (and look at me acting like I'm the big expert! Remember to take everything i say with a grain of salt) I actually found Sonia's map badly designed not because of the desert or the witches but because it was actually rather easy. The witches don't swarm you all at once and instead come in groups of twos or threes letting you pick them off easily as they expose themselves to your entire army. Maybe it's the RNG and sometimes the swarm you all at once but for me they were playing way too nice. I actually do like the idea of a map where you're basically exposed at all times and figuring out how best to from a wall is key but this wasn't it. Even the regular non witches come at you pretty rapidly at their own pace but that just encourages you to not move. Maybe you're still meant to be dealing with the witchs at that point and I just got lucky? All in all it reminds me a lot of the Greil Mercenaries Vs the Dawn Brigade swamp map in Radiant Dawn however unlike that map there's absolutely no motivation for you to get off your ass and do something leading to a map where you just sit there and win in a few turns.

Swamp Map

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Yeah that map can go die in a hole. Second worst in the game by a long mile. Only saving grace is that the shamans should be pretty manageable due to access to dear by this point. Still, there should definitely be some alternate route rather than slogging through poisonous swamp.

 

You know Jotari...you've helped me to look at the maps in a new light.  I too was in the "lol, Gaiden maps suck" category, but you've helped me to rethink some of my preconceived notions.  That point about the way all maps are about "killing all enemies" instead of "seize the castle" was especially insightful; I loved how you pointed that out.

 

...That said however...I feel like there are still problem with all these examples, Jotari, is that one has almost no control over which units go in which slots unless you use the maps that Horace provided.  The unit selection system here isn't quite as bad as it was in FE1, but it still makes it significantly harder to actually form any sort of strategy.  The game just throws you into deserts and forests and bogs; there's no way you can possibly be prepared to deal with the terrain until it's too late.  The only map I can think of that's properly designed to address that is, ironically enough, the Dragon Zombie ambush map.  Yes, it becomes hellacious when you go through it the 2nd and 3rd times, but it at least throws you a soft ball in the 1st map.  This gives you ample time to tag your strong units into the 11-15th slots before the challenge REALLY escalates.

 

And...do all the maps really need to be so large?  For example, the Desert map that Horace brought up; what would we have lost by reducing the map's height to about 75% it's original height?  Why do we need to have our foot units slog through sand for 5-10 Turns before they can even fight anything?

 

The accuracy issues Horace mentioned is also a problem.  I get what you mean in terms of forcing you to have to be careful, but...the problem is that there's no way to really guarantee anything working right.  You can theoretically try to set things up so that your strats are slow, but 100% safe...but guess what?  You don't always get that luxury.  For example, the Dragon Zombie map in Chapter 2; Angel!Celica is just about the only way to deal with that guy, and her hits are...80% accurate?  And she's also fragile enough to get 2HKOed.  So what's my fail safe for if she misses two Angel spells?  I GUESS I could have Jenny spam Illusion, but most new players aren't going to know that such a spell exists.  

 

It it is a brain dead simple map, and yet, there's not really any 100% safe way of dealing with that map; not unless you already know the game ahead of time.  That is an INFURIATING combination of qualities to have in what's supposed to be a Strategy Game.

 

So really, I think the issue is that the polish just isn't there.  It's kind of like Mega Man X5 that way; you had game designers that clearly had all see really awesome ideas, and wanted to push the NES as far as it would go.  But unfortunately, it doesn't seem as though they really play tested any of the ideas that they threw in there; not as they ought to have, anyway.  The maps are mostly decent, for all the reasons you mentioned...but all of them are held back by these infuriating little things that keep you from fully enjoying the experience.

 

Or at least, that's my perspective.  What do you think Jotari?  I'm interested in hearing more of your thoughts.

Edited February 1, 2017 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, General Horace said:

I got all the maps from http://www.fireemblemwod.com/

It has all the maps from FE1-FE13, no fates maps yet, among other stuff.  It's a really useful site.  It's spanish though, but still very easy to navigate.

Ah excellent. That should make my project for mapping all of the Archanea maps onto the actual contient actually viable.

5 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

You know Jotari...you've helped me to look at the maps in a new light.  I too was in the "lol, Gaiden maps suck" category, but you've helped me to rethink some of my preconceived notions.  That point about the way all maps are about "killing all enemies" instead of "seize the castle" was especially insightful; I loved how you pointed that out.

 

...That said however...I feel like there are still problem with all these examples, Jotari, is that one has almost no control over which units go in which slots unless you use the maps that Horace provided.  The unit selection system here isn't quite as bad as it was in FE1, but it still makes it significantly harder to actually form any sort of strategy.  The game just throws you into deserts and forests and bogs; there's no way you can possibly be prepared to deal with the terrain until it's too late.  The only map I can think of that's properly designed to address that is, ironically enough, the Dragon Zombie ambush map.  Yes, it becomes hellacious when you go through it the 2nd and 3rd times, but it at least throws you a soft ball in the 1st map.  This gives you ample time to tag your strong units into the 11-15th slots before the challenge REALLY escalates.

 

And...do all the maps really need to be so large?  For example, the Desert map that Horace brought up; what would we have lost by reducing the map's height to about 75% it's original height?  Why do we need to have our foot units slog through sand for 5-10 Turns before they can even fight anything?

 

The accuracy issues Horace mentioned is also a problem.  I get what you mean in terms of forcing you to have to be careful, but...the problem is that there's no way to really guarantee anything working right.  You can theoretically try to set things up so that your strats are slow, but 100% safe...but guess what?  You don't always get that luxury.  For example, the Dragon Zombie map in Chapter 2; Angel!Celica is just about the only way to deal with that guy, and her hits are...80% accurate?  And she's also fragile enough to get 2HKOed.  So what's my fail safe for if she misses two Angel spells?  I GUESS I could have Jenny spam Illusion, but most new players aren't going to know that such a spell exists.  

 

It it is a brain dead simple map, and yet, there's not really any 100% safe way of dealing with that map; not unless you already know the game ahead of time.  That is an INFURIATING combination of qualities to have in what's supposed to be a Strategy Game.

 

So really, I think the issue is that the polish just isn't there.  It's kind of like Mega Man X5 that way; you had game designers that clearly had all see really awesome ideas, and wanted to push the NES as far as it would go.  But unfortunately, it doesn't seem as though they really play tested any of the ideas that they threw in there; not as they ought to have, anyway.  The maps are mostly decent, for all the reasons you mentioned...but all of them are held back by these infuriating little things that keep you from fully enjoying the experience.

 

Or at least, that's my perspective.  What do you think Jotari?  I'm interested in hearing more of your thoughts.

Well first off I should say I did intentionally exaggerate slightly by saying Gaiden has 'Great' map design. That was to trigger people so to speak and elicit responses such as this. More accurate to say would be that Gaiden has much better map design than people give it credit for. It does show its age as a game with features like not being able to freely decide deployment or effectively check hit rates until going into battle. That's why people are so happy its being modernised. It's better than Thracia in the deployment aspect however (though I do believe the limited control over deployment in Thracia does work to the games advantage despite how frustrating it might seem). If you want somebody somewhere you simply have to reset and swap them with the person who is there. I did that quite a few times in my playthrough. Most effectively in Judah's chapter where all my pegasus sisters were naturally on the left but I swapped them so they were all on the right in order to triangle attack the boss on turn 4. Seeing the map and choosing where to deploy units is definitely a feature the game should have had but it kind of gets a pass for me due to predating the general concept of it (at least within this series). It's like striking a point against the game for not having Supports before supports were even a thing. I can fully understand how this would turn certain people off but as someone who enjoys a lot of NES era games due to their tight game design, it's the sort of thing that's easily forgiven.

Horace's Desert Map, yeah, I can agree that knocking three or four tiles of its vertical height would probably serve to help it somewhat. However as (I think) I mentioned before, the large size of the maps isn't as much of an issue as you might expect as enemies will actively charge you in this game frequently with their entire army. It might seem like there's a chapter or two of dead time before the two armies actually meet but exactly how you approach the oncoming army (ie which and, even more importantly where, units you put to the front) will massively affect how the battle pans out. It's not just moving from point A to point B like the first few turns after conquering a castle in Genealogy of Holy War.

There are a few seize maps but the desert map in question is the only one I can think off where the enemy is entirely passive. The other two siege maps I'm immediately thinking of (Geese's fortress and Mira's Temple) do have a constant stream of enemies coming out to face you as you approach and try to break through (done much more effectively in the former rather than the later which is a pretty poor map I'll admit. Strange considering its supposed to cap off Celica's part of Chapter 3 and her arc up until that point).So while the maps are big, they do try to make things interesting by keeping battles happening on every turn. Sometimes the size is also used purely for spectacle. As I mentioned before the size of the river map is basically to let you see the reinforcements coming. Unless you fail to defeat them on the first rush and need to chase them back to the healing spot, almost all the battles will be done in the starting area. The dragon ambush map is an even better example of this. That map is massive but it's filled almost entirely with lava and high movement flying enemies in the top left corner.

The size allows it to work effectively as an ambush, given Gaiden's unique mechanic of sometimes letting the enemy go first, it allows them to move first and approach without overwhelming you before you have any chance to retaliate. The large amount of lava also manages to effectively convey the sense of the area. It really looks like you're fighting on the slopes of a volcano.To that map's detriment however I do feel like the left group gets way more punishment than the larger right group. I reckon that's actually an oversight in the enemy's AI and positioning rather than an intentional idea for the map. Would make somewhat more sense if Alm was actually in that group since it's meant to be Alm's "struggle" but in practise it's Alm just watching Zeke fight dragons while Taitana spams Angel from behind whatever meat shields you can warp over there. All in all I think Gaiden's utilizes its large maps better than some other games in the series. Shadow Dragon and Sword of Seals immediately spring to mind games with maps that feel like an unnecessary slog (and I don't consider giving the player large access to warp skipping half the maps a particularly good game design. Gaiden does have warping too but at least sticking Alm beside the boss doesn't end all of the conflict in a single turn).

On the subject of the first Zombie Dragon map. First off I think it's a great idea for a map that I'm surprised hasn't really been repeated anywhere in the series. There's nothing particularly interesting happening with the map's design but putting your entire army against a single strong enemy early in the game is something completely different to what we typically see. It kind of plays a bit like a final boss battle long before a final boss. Killing the dragon with Angel is obviously the intended method of beating the map, an NPC even tells you but I actually did this map before Celica learned to spell and there is a pretty fail safe method of beating it. The dragon is strong but he's not quite strong enough to one round all of your units. I simply surrounded him with my four bulkiest ones and healed whichever one the dragon attacked (and not attacking with that unit on player phase of course). Then pegged it with magic and arrows (Valar could also attack pretty safely since he took six damage per round and has 30 HP at base). Sometimes the damage was a bit higher than I could heal but I believe I was even able to swap a unit in and have the weakened one using the healing tile to recover. This was a completely safe method albeit a bit boring since I was doing the requisite 1 damage a turn with most attacks and the dragon does recover health. But still, surrounding it to cut off its retreat and stop it from attacking your weaker enemies is a viable strategy. I imagine it would work just as well with Celica using angel. You'd be down one healer by having her attacking of course but i don't think that would be so devastating to the strategy that one or two misses with Angel would get someone killed. The dragon is designed to be strong but not so strong that its completely unbeatable. And if it is well then Gaiden's using its world map for an actual purpose with that one as its an entirely optional battle. The player is more than free to continue with the main game until they have to requisite spells or promotions to go back and take it on again. Also I don't really see how new players wouldn't know Illusion exists. If they're using Jenny to heal at all they're going to notice Illusion has suddenly popped up in her list of magic and will undoubtedly try it to see what happens at some point.

Overall I think most of your issues come from archaic game design rather than map design. Hit rates, terrain bonuses and deployments are the kind of things that are going to be an issue regardless as to what maps the game presents you with. It's for exactly these sort of reasons I was hesitant to play Gaiden for so long (well the monstrously bad translation I first tried was a bigger factor but they were present too) but I'm so happy I have now. It's also why I'm so hyped that the game's being remade since those very minor irritants that are so easily changed in the process of modernisation. I just hope the things that appear to be bad due to archaicness but actually aren't (IMO, the maps) are retained and only changed to improve the original design goals, rather than being changed so they're similar to things we've seen in over a dozen games in the series.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Jotari

[Baldrick]

It depends on how strong Palla and Catria are, but I feel the length of that desert map is just about right. Your army naturally splits into two waves; the pegasi who disrupt the enemy formation, and the rest of the army who crush the enemy with their firepower. Compared to other games in the series, it feels like a long-term conflict rather than a series of short-term conflicts. It's similar to what Genealogy tries to do, but in that game your offense is a lot more potent and so the enemy is usually routed (or disintegrated by Sigurd's seizing laser) before the infantry gets there. 

[FionordeQuester]

Hey Horace...how did you end up downloading those maps?  I'm trying to use that site, but it's not letting me copy or paste anything on that site.

[skabahk]

I've really been digging Gaiden a lot. The fact that most enemies rush you makes it a lot less "look at enemy range, bait w/ triangle advantage and wait" style. Could even be my fav simply due to this mechanic. Really hoping they don't shit on it w/ Echoes.