Fire Emblem Getting The Avatar System Right

[wigglepuppy]

As a die hard fan of the Fire Emblem series it's natural to critique the games myself, as well as listen to the opinions of others. One aspect of controversy is the inclusion of an Avatar. In my opinion, having an Avatar is a great addition to the current franchise, as the newer games are really focusing on the immersion aspect of the games, actually drawing the players into plot, characters, etc. However I also understand the viewpoint that the avatars are being "shoehorned" into the games (especially Fates) where everything seems to revolve around the Avatar, who's personality is made as generic as possible so that he may appeal to a variety of players. This in turn forces linearity into both the plot and cast, and makes the overall happenings in the game dull and predictable (relatively speaking). But I believe that it's not the inclusion of the Avatar that's the problem. Rather it's HOW the Avatar has been implemented. When you think about why an Avatar is included in the first place, it's pretty simple to answer. To immerse. But when you think about it, all we really get to customize is the physical appearance. Nothing else. This is where I feel, the problem really comes from. The only reason the Avatar feels forced, is because he/she is made as generic as possible with no option for variability. 

 

So, here's what I think should be done for future fire emblem games: Create a system that allows for the player to choose their personality. This can be done most comprehensively by allowing the player to respond to situations when given certain options. The best example of this can be seen in RPGs/Sandboxes such as Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Skyrim, Fallout, etc. 95% of conversations give the player a variety of possible responses. Going off the example of Dragon Age (the game who's system would fit the best with Fire Emblem imo) most responses usually give a good guy option, funny option, and tough guy option. This basic implementation would open up a whole new world in fire emblem games. The amount that the developers could expand on this is limitless. They could add the options of questioning NPC's which depending on what you say could result in different outcomes, it could unlock different side missions (paralogues), depending on how you respond to certain situations, maybe support conversations could change slightly, etc. 

 

What do you guys think?

[Gima]

Why didn't they do this with Fire Emblem: Fates

The game was advertised to be about making choices

COME ON

[Busterman64]

51 minutes ago, wigglepuppy said:

As a die hard fan of the Fire Emblem series it's natural to critique the games myself, as well as listen to the opinions of others. One aspect of controversy is the inclusion of an Avatar. In my opinion, having an Avatar is a great addition to the current franchise, as the newer games are really focusing on the immersion aspect of the games, actually drawing the players into plot, characters, etc. However I also understand the viewpoint that the avatars are being "shoehorned" into the games (especially Fates) where everything seems to revolve around the Avatar, who's personality is made as generic as possible so that he may appeal to a variety of players. This in turn forces linearity into both the plot and cast, and makes the overall happenings in the game dull and predictable (relatively speaking). But I believe that it's not the inclusion of the Avatar that's the problem. Rather it's HOW the Avatar has been implemented. When you think about why an Avatar is included in the first place, it's pretty simple to answer. To immerse. But when you think about it, all we really get to customize is the physical appearance. Nothing else. This is where I feel, the problem really comes from. The only reason the Avatar feels forced, is because he/she is made as generic as possible with no option for variability. 

 

So, here's what I think should be done for future fire emblem games: Create a system that allows for the player to choose their personality. This can be done most comprehensively by allowing the player to respond to situations when given certain options. The best example of this can be seen in RPGs/Sandboxes such as Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Skyrim, Fallout, etc. 95% of conversations give the player a variety of possible responses. Going off the example of Dragon Age (the game who's system would fit the best with Fire Emblem imo) most responses usually give a good guy option, funny option, and tough guy option. This basic implementation would open up a whole new world in fire emblem games. The amount that the developers could expand on this is limitless. They could add the options of questioning NPC's which depending on what you say could result in different outcomes, it could unlock different side missions (paralogues), depending on how you respond to certain situations, maybe support conversations could change slightly, etc. 

 

What do you guys think?

That sounds pretty good, but to add onto that...

I feel like Robin in Awakening was on a good track. Robin had personality, stood out from the rest of the group, and wasn't the main source of the plot(mostly anyway). Robin was, more or less, just another part of the army. Now, that isn't to say that the Avatar can't be main attraction of the story, but Fates didn't do it right. Honestly though, the Avatar should be on the sidelines, but still have some importance.

As for what should customizable with the avatar:

Personality(like you said)

Appearance(More unique options that are not similar to other characters)

Stats

Voice

Certain Dialogue 

Weapon Choice(like, choose a second weapon to use)

 

As for story involvement, I think have the avatar be a friend to the main lord(more as a childhood friend) or maybe certain events lead you to have to fighting side by side(whether you both like it or not) or maybe even your're hired as the retainer for the main lord or...or....lots of other things!

OH! Or maybe have a game where the avatar is the main focus and depending on your personality choice, the story differs in certain points!

They could even have those personality tests at the beginning like in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon!

 

 Oh, and for your talk options:

Nice

Funny

Rude

Sarcastic

Intimidating

Sweet

(Self)Doubt

....the list goes on(of course, I don't mean all these choices every time, but you get what I mean! )

 

It would also be cool if we had a game structure like FE4, where if you get married, you fight along side your child (years)later on in the story! That way, certain events feel more personal(like if in the story, you see your future self train you daughter and you form a bond with her. However, your daughter is kidnapped later on. It creates a personal reason to want to save someone!

Oh! or maybe even...AH! THE IDEAS WON'T STOP! 

 

The only problem with Avatars(and this idea) is that that requires ALOT more Writing. Personally, I think if they go this route, they might have to limit how many different people everyone in the army can support with(and by that, I mean the number of people, NOT the number of times that you can support as a whole [5x]...I don't want that back...)

I also don't want over 60-70+ characters again like Fates. The writing suffers for many characters because of it. Keep it around 50-ish units, like in previous games(Although, the Telluis games got away with around almost 70 characters and did surprisingly well with each character, but like I said, limit the support options to a certain degree for the sake of more quality writing!)

Hopefully what I said makes sense! I don't hate the Avatar, but I would like it more if it's done right(and it works well with the rest of the game)! 

And maybe tame down the waifu stuff a bit...just saying...

39 minutes ago, Gima said:

Why didn't they do this with Fire Emblem: Fates

The game was advertised to be about making choices

COME ON

OBVIOUSLY, all the work went into choosing which version to get and whether or not if you should kill Shura in Conquest for some Boots or keep him! 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Busterman64

[Slumber]

5 hours ago, wigglepuppy said:

They could add the options of questioning NPC's which depending on what you say could result in different outcomes, it could unlock different side missions (paralogues), depending on how you respond to certain situations, maybe support conversations could change slightly, etc.

I think the problem with this would be that people wouldn't be playing as themselves at some point. They'd be playing whatever the critical path is that gives them the best results in gameplay. So after a certain point, having an Avatar becomes pointless and poorly implemented again. Instead of fleshing out gameplay and being immersive, you're just restricting yourself to get the best units, the best paralogues, the best weapons, the best supports, etc.

In a game like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, making choices based on personality have very little effect on gameplay. Usually, it means you are a nice dude who can talk his way out of fights, or a tough dude who can kill people in the middle of dialogue to get out of fights. Whatever secondary gameplay benefits you get out of playing with a different personality are negligible, and since they're action games, often aren't even apparent. As far as I can recall, being a different type of dude doesn't even change the kind of weapons you get. The big changes come from story, which will affect how people like you, which doesn't tie into gameplay at all, really.

In Fire Emblem, how much people like you ties directly into gameplay. It's a different system entirely, and I don't see how it could work in any fashion if it's reminiscent of DA or ME.

As I've said many times, if you're going to do an Avatar, which I find debatable in and of itself, the best way to do this is the "Kris" style(With tweaks, obviously, so units aren't fawning over your Avatar to the point where it's affecting story and your character ends up still being a Mary Sue). Have your Avatar be the right hand of the main characters. A really powerful normal unit who lets you observe the story from a distance, or occasionally gives suggestions. Kind of like a mixture of Mark and Kris. If the game doesn't have children, then personality and choices affecting supports would probably be fine.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Slumber

[Punished Dayni]

Honestly, if you were to go down the route of making the choices matter, I think a structure that shared similarities to a CYOA would be a decent idea to consider, where the game would diverge on maps and even story based on actions taken in game and in cutscenes (i.e. what I initially thought Fates would be when it was only known as IF. stupid me).

Then again, such a title would have to take a lot of things and either alter them to work, or remove them entirely, so I could see it not exactly being a popular title.

[wigglepuppy]

On 1/31/2017 at 4:50 PM, Slumber said:

I think the problem with this would be that people wouldn't be playing as themselves at some point. They'd be playing whatever the critical path is that gives them the best results in gameplay. So after a certain point, having an Avatar becomes pointless and poorly implemented again. Instead of fleshing out gameplay and being immersive, you're just restricting yourself to get the best units, the best paralogues, the best weapons, the best supports, etc.

In a game like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, making choices based on personality have very little effect on gameplay. Usually, it means you are a nice dude who can talk his way out of fights, or a tough dude who can kill people in the middle of dialogue to get out of fights. Whatever secondary gameplay benefits you get out of playing with a different personality are negligible, and since they're action games, often aren't even apparent. As far as I can recall, being a different type of dude doesn't even change the kind of weapons you get. The big changes come from story, which will affect how people like you, which doesn't tie into gameplay at all, really.

In Fire Emblem, how much people like you ties directly into gameplay. It's a different system entirely, and I don't see how it could work in any fashion if it's reminiscent of DA or ME.

As I've said many times, if you're going to do an Avatar, which I find debatable in and of itself, the best way to do this is the "Kris" style(With tweaks, obviously, so units aren't fawning over your Avatar to the point where it's affecting story and your character ends up still being a Mary Sue). Have your Avatar be the right hand of the main characters. A really powerful normal unit who lets you observe the story from a distance, or occasionally gives suggestions. Kind of like a mixture of Mark and Kris. If the game doesn't have children, then personality and choices affecting supports would probably be fine.

Hmmmm I definitely see what you're getting at here. I apologize for not being clearer previously, but what I meant was not that one choice would be better than the other objectively, rather, each possibility would lead to different circumstances. For example, take Yarne's paralogue in Awakening. If there were some sort of decision/consequence system, joining one group would give you some sort of weapon, while joining the other would give you gold, or a master seal or some other item. And the player input dialogue would lead to either one of these choices (or fighting both). I'm not saying FE should implement variability on the same scale as DA or ME, I'm saying that a similar system could do wonders for the franchise.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by wigglepuppy

[wigglepuppy]

On 1/31/2017 at 6:49 PM, Dayni said:

Honestly, if you were to go down the route of making the choices matter, I think a structure that shared similarities to a CYOA would be a decent idea to consider, where the game would diverge on maps and even story based on actions taken in game and in cutscenes (i.e. what I initially thought Fates would be when it was only known as IF. stupid me).

Then again, such a title would have to take a lot of things and either alter them to work, or remove them entirely, so I could see it not exactly being a popular title.

I KNNOWWWWW!!!!!! That's what I thought Fates would be about too!! But in their defense, they did really change up game mechanics in that game, and they had to use a lot of resources on the new graphical updates with the Live 2D Animations and all

[wigglepuppy]

On 1/31/2017 at 0:29 PM, Busterman64 said:

That sounds pretty good, but to add onto that...

I feel like Robin in Awakening was on a good track. Robin had personality, stood out from the rest of the group, and wasn't the main source of the plot(mostly anyway). Robin was, more or less, just another part of the army. Now, that isn't to say that the Avatar can't be main attraction of the story, but Fates didn't do it right. Honestly though, the Avatar should be on the sidelines, but still have some importance.

As for what should customizable with the avatar:

Personality(like you said)

Appearance(More unique options that are not similar to other characters)

Stats

Voice

Certain Dialogue 

Weapon Choice(like, choose a second weapon to use)

 

As for story involvement, I think have the avatar be a friend to the main lord(more as a childhood friend) or maybe certain events lead you to have to fighting side by side(whether you both like it or not) or maybe even your're hired as the retainer for the main lord or...or....lots of other things!

OH! Or maybe have a game where the avatar is the main focus and depending on your personality choice, the story differs in certain points!

They could even have those personality tests at the beginning like in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon!

 

 Oh, and for your talk options:

Nice

Funny

Rude

Sarcastic

Intimidating

Sweet

(Self)Doubt

....the list goes on(of course, I don't mean all these choices every time, but you get what I mean! )

 

It would also be cool if we had a game structure like FE4, where if you get married, you fight along side your child (years)later on in the story! That way, certain events feel more personal(like if in the story, you see your future self train you daughter and you form a bond with her. However, your daughter is kidnapped later on. It creates a personal reason to want to save someone!

Oh! or maybe even...AH! THE IDEAS WON'T STOP! 

 

The only problem with Avatars(and this idea) is that that requires ALOT more Writing. Personally, I think if they go this route, they might have to limit how many different people everyone in the army can support with(and by that, I mean the number of people, NOT the number of times that you can support as a whole [5x]...I don't want that back...)

I also don't want over 60-70+ characters again like Fates. The writing suffers for many characters because of it. Keep it around 50-ish units, like in previous games(Although, the Telluis games got away with around almost 70 characters and did surprisingly well with each character, but like I said, limit the support options to a certain degree for the sake of more quality writing!)

Hopefully what I said makes sense! I don't hate the Avatar, but I would like it more if it's done right(and it works well with the rest of the game)! 

And maybe tame down the waifu stuff a bit...just saying...

OBVIOUSLY, all the work went into choosing which version to get and whether or not if you should kill Shura in Conquest for some Boots or keep him! 

See? This is what frustrates me. All of these ideas that you've presented are well thought out and awesome. And, there are nearly an infinite number of possibilities that could happen if this system were implemented. An Avatar in FE has SO MUCH POTENTIAL yet they're just not executing it in the way that would be most beneficial

[Raumata]

Why not just have the FE community create a fan made, D&D style game based on Fire Emblem? 

[LucarioGamer812]

On 2/3/2017 at 8:39 PM, Raumata said:

Why not just have the FE community create a fan made, D&D style game based on Fire Emblem? 

Hah, I wish. If IS actually did that then we'd have a pretty good game covering all perspectives (that and annoying map difficulty or gimmicks)

 

But I think that of the 3 avatars we've had, Kris was just a variable unit, Robin had a small impact on the story and actually had somewhat of a personality, and Corrin.....the less said about that the better. But I agree with a avatar they need to be more customizable and not necessarily the main character, if they are the main character have the choices actually affect the game.

 

[Fly_or_Die]

I'm as much of a fan of highly customizable avatars in other games as the next person, but I've never really felt like they fit the Fire Emblem series, mostly because the avatar isn't the main character (minus Corrin, who is perhaps an example of why the avatar *shouldn't* be the main character).

I think Robin was the closest to my "ideal" avatar -- simply a blank personality for the player to project onto, until he started creeping into the limelight in the second half of awakening.

[SpearOfLies]

The avatar be not the main character of story, but still be important to the story.

Have more personality choices.

Any personality choice unlock and block support path so the avatar can be less whore, less the burden to make 90 different support based of one personality.

Delete the anyone can have a children mechanic. I'm fine to make the lord(aka main character) have child for story-wise. Awakening was fine there but Fates have so many forced child to make most of support similar. I have no issue wich unlimited support(I'm quite happy about it) but one characters have to many people wich he can support. I will be more happy if they restricted to 5 people so they can make them more deep.

The avatar start with the base class you pick. No more broken class for avatar.

[Sunwoo]

I don't have anything against the avatar system in general. But I wouldn't want an avatar in every single FE game from now on either, even if IS could get it right. Part of the charm about some of the older FE games is that the story didn't feel the need to include "you". It was about these people and a situation that you were not included in, and that was fine. Looking at things like an outsider, with a detached point of view, is perfectly fine and lets you take a more objective look at matters. I don't want all future FEs to include "you" or to be about "you". Having an avatar every once in a while, if IS could get them right, is okay. Having them in every single game from now on would just become old.

[SpearOfLies]

9 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I don't have anything against the avatar system in general. But I wouldn't want an avatar in every single FE game from now on either, even if IS could get it right. Part of the charm about some of the older FE games is that the story didn't feel the need to include "you". It was about these people and a situation that you were not included in, and that was fine. Looking at things like an outsider, with a detached point of view, is perfectly fine and lets you take a more objective look at matters. I don't want all future FEs to include "you" or to be about "you". Having an avatar every once in a while, if IS could get them right, is okay. Having them in every single game from now on would just become old.

I agree about don't have avatar on all the next games. Mine is more like if there is an avatar system, what I want change from the current one. To improve gameplay and story.

[The_antithesis]

I personally feel as though an avatar could enhance the story significantly if the writing is done well (ie DO NOT let Treehouse anywhere near it)

I think an FE where you control an avatar who, through both luck and judgment, rises from the peasantry and becomes a lord through their own actions would make for a very engaging story, especially if the player is given a lot of choices to make.

As for current avatars, as a substitute for the lord archetype who the player happens to change the look of, I don't see the avatar as being more than a shoehorned-in feature.

I would say that FE should take an 'all or nothing' approach. If you want an avatar, make them the focus of the story and give the player loads of choices. Otherwise, the avatar should take a back seat, like in FE7, and their only purpose would be to allow the characters to talk to the player without destroying the fourth wall. Anything in between (like what Awakening and Fates did) doesn't give the full effect of a representation of the player, whilst also carrying all the story-hindering baggage of being adaptable to the player's personality. This leads to blank slate lords, which does NOT help storytelling.

[Tsak]

Call me crazy but, honestly i'd rather have the avatar play a more standoffish role. Like sort of how the avatar was in FE7. Have them be the tactician of sorts who happens to be among the real protagonists.Awakening and Fates i felt like with either, the playable Avatar was just too broken gameplay wise, or ended up making the story less impactful. Making them a side character who supports the real main character is fairly easy and doesn't require them to add a bunch nonsense to fit them into the plot. Considering the main gameplay of FE is tactical warfare, them being a tactician who guides the other characters into battle has much relevance. Them being some sort of mage/sword wielder who does all of that and a bag of chips is interesting, but also completely ridiculous. Someone being able to set up battle formations on the fly IN the heat of battle is quite crazy and most every main character would have to be some sort of prodigy with weapons/magic and tactics. That sort of shit is a lot to front load into 1 character just to make them a playable unit. And well Corrin? idk that doesn't even make sense? but neither does most of Fates anyways lets not even go there.

[The_antithesis]

On 02/05/2017 at 5:07 AM, Tsak said:

Considering the main gameplay of FE is tactical warfare, them being a tactician who guides the other characters into battle has much relevance.

That's a good point.  I think the tactician could actually be factored into strategy by making the avatar a pathetically weak unit (probably a dancer, but with orders instead of dancing) who you must protect. Maybe make it so that if a unit is more than 10 spaces away from the avatar, your voice can't reach far enough to talk to them, so they become yellow units (although that one could completely screw you over!)

[Godhand]

Personally, I like the inclusion of the avatar, and I actually feel more invested in the game if there is an avatar character I can customize and control. However, the avatar cannot be the center of attention unless the game gives you a lot of choices and the ability to pick your personality. Otherwise, you end up with someone like Corrin, who isn't a blank slate at all; he is the exact opposite, in fact. Corrin has a set, defined personality, and because of this, he didn't function well as an avatar. There were plenty of times where I disagreed with Corrin or Corrin did the complete opposite of what I would have done in that situation. Corrin is an example of the avatar done wrong. 

The optimal avatar for me would be a character that plays a moderate to large role in the story, but you have the option to make all his choices and choose his personality. Otherwise, it's better to just have an avatar who is more of a background character, like Robin. 

[Armagon]

For FE to get the Avatar system right, they should take a page from Xenoblade Chronicles X's Cross. Cross is probably the best Avatar i have ever seen. Literally everything about Cross -appearnce, voice, personality, past, etc - is decided by you, the player. 

[SavageVolug]

What I don't like about Playable Avatars is they feel forced into the story as has already been stated, and it seems the story always has a way of focusing more on the avatar than on the protagonist. Where the avatar either outperforms the lord or get's more attention than him or both basically the avatar ends up being more of a "you are a special snowflake" mechanic than drawing the player in.

Now the avatar is a fun aspect, but I think more options need to be given if the avatar is to be included and done right first of all the player chooses the starting class (mercenary, soldier, pirate, shaman etc.) is allowed to adjust their starting stats based on what class they choose and can adjust their growths. You have a chart or something and you adjust every stat growth to your desired percentages however depending on the class you cannot go below a certain point for certain stats. And you have a limited number of points you can use for example you can't have every stat have an 85+% growth rate. In addition you are allowed to choose how you respond similar to how has already been stated.