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Makalov. He's like the one character I can't think of anything good to say about. From a unit perspective, Meg or Wendy likely takes it.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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On 2/11/2017 at 5:23 PM, Just call me AL said:

Emulation =/= Portrayal. And the key words are right there: What she thought Marth was like. She only sought to emulate him because the situation in her own timeline were very dire. She felt like she didn't have enough strength to lead anyone there against the Risen and Grima. She felt seeking to emulate Marth would give her the strength she needed. To her, Marth was a source of inspiration. Pretending to be Marth was never her intention to taking his name as her own. Heck, she doesn't even really try to hide her actual identity early on, given how similar to Chrom's style her own swordfighting skills are (a fact that she explicitly attributed to having learned how to use a sword from her father), and her knowledge of Castle Ylisse's courtyards. And don't forget that after fully joining Chrom's group, she casts Marth's name aside, no longer feeling she would need the strength of the man who bore it. Not to mention, would anyone seeking to emulate a legendary or historical figure even know how that figure truly behaved? Highly doubtful.

Even if Lucina did put on the whole Marth disguise and persona to derive strength from it, I still find the inaccuracy of the portrayal cringeworthy and quite insulting, especially since I really like Marth for how soft, over-concerned he is for all people (and how plenty of times he has to put his royal duties over saving lives, while greatly regretting it), and how easily he gets flustered and loses his composure compared to most lords (even to his own allies, like Caeda, Athena, and Tiki). All of those are aspects of Marth I like which Lucina did the exact opposite of in her Marth emulation.

I mean, Lyn is one of your favourite FE characters, and if Lucina was for some reason portraying Lyn instead of Marth and copied only Lyn's vengefulness for bandits and evildoers and was completely murderous and ruthless to them (without copying Lyn's compassion for her allies and innocent people), I'm sure you'd dislike that too. Even if you'd personally be okay with Lucina inaccurately emulating Lyn like that, I don't think it's too unreasonable for a fan of a character to dislike how another character inaccurately emulates/portrays/whatever a character that they greatly like (and insults them, in their eyes, in the process).

If you want to keep discussing this, we should probably take it to PM.

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On the subject of Lucina pretending to be Marth: She had no real means of knowing what he was like, didn't she?  The only one who knew him who was still around was Tiki, and she was on another continent, for some reason.  In fact, their supports go over exactly this.  

I don't think it's something she can really be faulted for, with that in mind.  There are clearly no records of his personality left after the 2000 or so years since Marth died, besides Tiki's knowledge.  

It's like someone in FE6/7 using a guise as Roland, with nothing to go on other than "he was a hero who slayed dragons."  That's all the knowledge the person, or anyone else, has, so the person using the pseudonym has to fill in the blanks themselves.

Or, that's how I see it.  

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It's actually even consistent with FE12's epilogue:

Quote

Chris: Sire. With this war now over, a hero will be needed. A hero called Prince Marth. There are still hostilities between people who have fought for so long. Those won't disappear easily. In order to have everyone's agreement, a king everyone recognizes-- a godlike hero is needed. And that hero must be you, sire, and you alone.

Isn't Kris soooo humble?? We all like Kris, don't we?!! Anyway, this is from Lucina's B-support with Tiki:

Quote

Tiki: One thing I can tell you is that he treasured his friends like no one else I've known. He was kind, considerate, and calm. And despite his station, quick with a smile.
Lucina: Really?!
Tiki: You sound surprised...
Lucina: I just didn't expect the mighty King Marth to be so...er, nice.

Honestly, I find that aspect of Lucina rather charming. The myths about the Hero-King seem to be centered around his valour and might in battle and all that, so Lucina's imagination of him is that of a fearsome warrior who would challenge the mightiest dragons to single combat (without using his sword, no less!) and she's completely baffled that the first thing about Marth that came to Tiki's mind was 'nice guy'. Really, I'm only disappointed that 'Mar-Mar' isn't brought up in their conversations. :D

Edited by ping
little formating hiccup
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5 hours ago, Randoman said:

Even if Lucina did put on the whole Marth disguise and persona to derive strength from it, I still find the inaccuracy of the portrayal cringeworthy and quite insulting, especially since I really like Marth for how soft, over-concerned he is for all people (and how plenty of times he has to put his royal duties over saving lives, while greatly regretting it), and how easily he gets flustered and loses his composure compared to most lords (even to his own allies, like Caeda, Athena, and Tiki). All of those are aspects of Marth I like which Lucina did the exact opposite of in her Marth emulation.

I mean, Lyn is one of your favourite FE characters, and if Lucina was for some reason portraying Lyn instead of Marth and copied only Lyn's vengefulness for bandits and evildoers and was completely murderous and ruthless to them (without copying Lyn's compassion for her allies and innocent people), I'm sure you'd dislike that too. Even if you'd personally be okay with Lucina inaccurately emulating Lyn like that, I don't think it's too unreasonable for a fan of a character to dislike how another character inaccurately emulates/portrays/whatever a character that they greatly like (and insults them, in their eyes, in the process).

If you want to keep discussing this, we should probably take it to PM.

Glaceon Mage pretty much covered what I would've said anyways. 

4 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

On the subject of Lucina pretending to be Marth: She had no real means of knowing what he was like, didn't she?  The only one who knew him who was still around was Tiki, and she was on another continent, for some reason.  In fact, their supports go over exactly this.  

I don't think it's something she can really be faulted for, with that in mind.  There are clearly no records of his personality left after the 2000 or so years since Marth died, besides Tiki's knowledge.  

It's like someone in FE6/7 using a guise as Roland, with nothing to go on other than "he was a hero who slayed dragons."  That's all the knowledge the person, or anyone else, has, so the person using the pseudonym has to fill in the blanks themselves.

Or, that's how I see it.  

Pretty much. For all we know, Roland could've been like Zack Fair from the FF7 compilation, personality-wise.

EDIT: Looks like Ping covered it a bit too.

Edited by Just call me AL
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Well, since other people have responded to Al's and my conversation that I was hoping to transfer to PM from here on out, I guess I'll just wrap it up in one more post (and I'm not going to respond anymore past that so it doesn't get to the point of warns being handed out).

Technically, Roland's personality was shown in FE7 when Eliwood gets the Durandal in Eliwood Mode Ch. 28, an he was shown to be a kind, caring guy. Even if someone was trying to emulate/portray Roland, and made him out to be a cold, rude guy like Lucina did with Marth, I'd find that quite cringeworthy as well. I mean, heroic legendary figures typically aren't cold, rude people, and even if they were something other than kind or noble, legends and stories would usually state that (like how Braimmond isn't a kind and noble person, and the legends explicitly state he was an enigma, even among his allies).

Sorry, but even with all those arguments regarding Lucina's inaccurate emulation/portrayal of Marth, that still doesn't change the fact that in my opinion I find it annoying, cringeworthy, and insulting that she portrayed Marth (one of my favourite FE characters) in both a bad and inaccurate way that took away all the personality traits I did like about him. No amount of arguing is going to make me change how annoying I found Lucina's Marth portrayal. We're just going to have to agree to disagree from here on out and accept that we feel differently about Lucina's Marth emulation/portrayal.

(sigh, this is what I get for posting somewhere that's not Forum Games or a PM)

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Hmm, I shouldn't pass up an opportunity to spite Corrin, but the issue is mainly how other characters treat him, not so much what he does or says. Conquest Corrin is a downright despicable character in this respect, but it's shown gradually that his Nohr siblings are just as terrified of their father as he is so I understand the passive compliance even if I don't agree with it.

I kind of want to talk about Ephraim and his lust for battle. Leaving his country and family behind at the first news that a war had started with Grado. One of his best friends is the Grado prince, so that should be another reason he might pause before starting his campaign. Bizarrely, there is no point in the story where we see Ephraim's reaction to the news of his father's death. It's implied he doesn't know by chapter 5x, but he must have found out at some point before A New Journey. It's a huge missed opportunity to develop him into a ruling figure. I'm really mad that he becomes King. In his support conversations, he shows little remorse for his actions, hiding behind frail excuses like never considering he'd outlive his father, never being good with books, or just simply because he's a man. Eirika should rightfully rule, as she has no love for battle, and compassion enough to help her countrymen. The epilogue suggests that the rebuilding of Renais went smoothly under Ephraim's leadership, and he has a surprisingly compassionate turn of character in the final scene of Ephraim's route, but I just don't see him as moral or heroic. The story just kind of conforms around him saving Magvel by making everybody he fights evil with the rare exception of Selena Flourspar. Calling Ephraim the worst character in Fire Emblem is a stretch, but he's the one I'm most displeased with at the moment.

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From the games I've played:

Chrom- To me he's what everyone complains about Corrin being, without the circumstances regarding upbringing. It was not very hard for Lucina to overshadow him; you can say because later on he's much less the focus.  But even when he's the main focus, he's boring honestly.

From watching play-troughs and reading supports:

Soren- He just personifies negativity to me. His interaction with the laguz in Chapter 8 broke the straw on the camels back for me. It's the only time I wanted to see someone die. And reading up on his back story does not help me like him. In his supports with Ike, the back story comes off as contrived emotional manipulation honestly. 

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On 2/11/2017 at 5:54 PM, Glaceon Mage said:

There's a group, but FE10 Ike (boring spotlight hog), Kris (avatars are excessively kissed up to and they leech on other characters), Robin (see Kris), Tharja (abusive mother, creepy stalker), Niime (again with terrible mother/grandmother, also she considers killing Fae in their support), Sully (plays the gender card way too much, accuses people of discrimination they didn't do), Corrin (see Kris again, also he's an idiot), Peri (legit makes absolutely no sense in terms of her place in Fateslandia, makes others act ooc to work, also she kills random people), and Camilla (again, creepy, also wear more practical armor lady COME ON that can't be comfortable to ride a dragon zombie in) form the ire squad.  

I agree with all of these except Robin and my favourite waifu Sully! (FIGHT ME)

Edit: WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE AZAMA! ( don't worry Azama, I still love you...)

Edited by Tuvy
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Male Kana. With other boring/annoying units, I can at least tolerate their voices. Male Kana's voice is like a blade honer grinded against the pavement to me. Especially grating since Male Morgan had good voice acting, and Female Kana's isn't too bad either. Bad audio is honestly the worst sin a work can commit, aside from maybe using seizure effects.

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Ike ... (If you are talking about popular -- dislike character) ... Tharja and Camilla should be there but ... they arent main character enough ... but both are lame fanservice.

Beruka ... (She blands af... even Setsuna has more personality than her and Setsuna is Bae)

 

All time: Orson

Peri is fine man... though Cavalier is a weird class for her.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Probably Ilyana, who manages to be utterly forgettable despite joining early in two games (including one with full support conversations). She's hungry, she looks sad, that's pretty much her entire character. And unlike the gimmicky characters from Awakening, or jerks like Shinon and Makalov, she is not entertaining. Next to the very strong cast of the Tellius games, she sticks out like a sore thumb.

(I haven't played Shadow Dragon, so there might be worse characters there.)

I think the Fates cast is a bit underrated around these parts.

Edited by Heptade
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On 2/14/2017 at 6:03 AM, Tuvy said:

 

Edit: WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE AZAMA! ( don't worry Azama, I still love you...)

I'm in the camp that loves Azama. He's a dick, but he's both hilarious and entertaining. :lol:

2 hours ago, Heptade said:

Probably Ilyana, who manages to be utterly forgettable despite joining early in two games (including one with full support conversations). She's hungry, she looks sad, that's pretty much her entire character. And unlike the gimmicky characters from Awakening, or jerks like Shinon and Makalov, she is not entertaining. Next to the very strong cast of the Tellius games, she sticks out like a sore thumb.

(I haven't played Shadow Dragon, so there might be worse characters there.)

I think the Fates cast is a bit underrated around these parts.

Damn, you beat me to the punch on saying Ilyana. She's a complete waste of code and space in a subseries with some of the best-written and most developed characters in the series, if I'm being direct about it.

Also dislike Peri immensely. She's a failed attempt at capturing the magic of Henry, and comes off like a poorly written Deviantart-esque OC rather than an actual character in the series. She reads like every 13-year-old's attempt at making a "3edgy4me so dangerous but so cute and bubbly and happy" fan character. Plus, she manages to derail Xander's character spectacularly (though the Conquest path itself also manages to do that) during their supports. Just...no.

I'm gonna go with Camilla for my choice, though. Transparent fanservice character is transparent fanservice. Yeah, sure, she's got "depth" or whatever, but nobody is looking that far with what's right in your face. It was at the point that I cringed hard during the camera's orbit of her on the Birthright path, as well as every time she said or did anything in the Conquest path.

I disliked Tharja for this reason back during Awakening's heyday, but I had no idea they'd somehow manage to do it even worse, and make it more insulting to people who like good character design. And at least with Peri, she's a minor enough character that you can ignore her for the most part after her introduction scene. We're not so lucky with Camilla.

On 2/13/2017 at 9:49 PM, I'm a Spheal said:

Soren- He just personifies negativity to me. His interaction with the laguz in Chapter 8 broke the straw on the camels back for me. It's the only time I wanted to see someone die. And reading up on his back story does not help me like him. In his supports with Ike, the back story comes off as contrived emotional manipulation honestly. 

Aw, but didn't you get the part about Soren being a "big softie" who tries to hide it with his coldness? That was hilarious, especially his flat reaction to it. His relationship with Ike is cute, at least, right?

I personally adore Soren, but I can see how he can come off as an edgelord to some. I myself sometimes mock his edgelord tendencies. Lol.

Edited by Extrasolar
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Currently its probably Niles, who is thoroughly unlikable to me, mostly because he loves seeing people suffer for his own enjoyment, and has little redeeming values in comparison to his sadism.

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I really dislike Subaki. I feel like 99% of his support are either, "I'm perfect. Watch me be perfect." or "Oh no...I can't do the thing perfectly. Just kidding. Look. I can do it." He's basically a living, breathing Gary Stu. Granted, I haven't read through all of his supports, but I've read through enough to annoy me. (And I've never managed to get him to have more than 10 STR... >.>)

I'm not a big fan of RD Ike. I liked him quite a bit in PoR. I'm not sure I'd classify RD Ike as a least favorite character, but he'd be on my list. Corrin is definitely on the last as well. He/She is just...I don't quite know. Fates tries so hard to make you want to like Corrin, but I just can't. I also am not the biggest fan of Roy. Nothing wrong with him. He's just kind of boring. Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector were the triumvirate of cool, and Roy doesn't really meet the same standard.

I don't know if there's any character that I just HATE with a burning passion. (...unless we're counting villains. Then I absolutely hate Valtome from RD. He creeps me out.)

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1 hour ago, Rafiel's Aria said:

I really dislike Subaki. I feel like 99% of his support are either, "I'm perfect. Watch me be perfect." or "Oh no...I can't do the thing perfectly. Just kidding. Look. I can do it." He's basically a living, breathing Gary Stu. Granted, I haven't read through all of his supports, but I've read through enough to annoy me. (And I've never managed to get him to have more than 10 STR... >.>)

I'm not a big fan of RD Ike. I liked him quite a bit in PoR. I'm not sure I'd classify RD Ike as a least favorite character, but he'd be on my list. Corrin is definitely on the last as well. He/She is just...I don't quite know. Fates tries so hard to make you want to like Corrin, but I just can't. I also am not the biggest fan of Roy. Nothing wrong with him. He's just kind of boring. Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector were the triumvirate of cool, and Roy doesn't really meet the same standard.

I don't know if there's any character that I just HATE with a burning passion. (...unless we're counting villains. Then I absolutely hate Valtome from RD. He creeps me out.)

I like Subaki in theory, because the idea of a guy under so much pressure to be perfect that he's cracking at the edges is fascinating to me, and we get word of his parents basically screwed him mentally by forcing the idea of perfection on him. ...But we don't see enough of those cracks underneath. Just when it seems like they're going that route, he gets back up and wins effortlessly anyway. I mean, he's generally nice and seems to like helping people, but his arrogance can be frustrating and eye-rolling sometimes. But yeah, he's a tank rather than a damage dealer

I agree with you on the Ike front. RD Ike seems like they went "Let's strip everything even remotely original or interesting about Ike in the previous game away, add about 100 pounds of muscle, and call it a day." Imo it's worse because a lot of the other units, namely the Dawn Brigade, were underdeveloped because the Greil Mercenaries had to come back into the spotlight. Love those guys, but that hurt RD overall.

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FE3/12: Kris- Meh. Bad customization options and despite being kissed up to constantly, they still weren't that relevant.

FE4: Beowolf- he's an asshole to Lachesis and completely leaves her with their two children. (HM to Dimna and Daisy for being useless, but not hateable though)

FE5: Fergus- Douchebag I'm not even sure why Karin was attracted to him.

FE6: Niime- BRUJA

FE7: Sonia- she's a love to hate bitch. A good villain IMO.

FE9: Makalov- do I even need to say.

FE10: Makalov- HOW DID HE END UP WITH ASTRID NOOOOOOOO

FE13: Gregor- kind of creeps me out for some reason, talks in the 3rd person too much.

FE14: ughhhhh where do I begin

           1)Korrin- reasons already stated

           2)Peri- reasons already stated

           3)Arthur- L'arachel is the real defender of justice, you cheap imitation, can't hit at 90%, incompetent, impotent, low down dirty bird.

           4)Azuma- totally irrelevant bc we already had Sakura, who was better.

HM from FE14 go to Azura (she's a main character, but has no real development, and is kind of boring despite all the camera time. I don't hate her though), Kana (weird design, but decent enough kid though), Zola (we were rooting for you we were all rooting for you not really)

 

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On 2/11/2017 at 9:26 AM, Just call me AL said:

Except how is her "portrayal" of Marth  "inaccurate" when she never even claims to be THE Marth in the first place? I mean, granted, she identifies herself as "Marth", but at no point does she ever call herself "the Hero-King".

I feel like there's a contradiction in there somewhere. Yeah she didn't use the words "Hero-King" but she masqueraded as Marth bottom line cut and dry.

She does suck at lying though.

I was going to talk about the Florina thing you said too, but I reread what you wrote, and I was like "ehhh I see it" and I don't feel like going back through all of her supports.

9 hours ago, Heptade said:

Probably Ilyana, who manages to be utterly forgettable despite joining early in two games (including one with full support conversations). She's hungry, she looks sad, that's pretty much her entire character. And unlike the gimmicky characters from Awakening, or jerks like Shinon and Makalov, she is not entertaining. Next to the very strong cast of the Tellius games, she sticks out like a sore thumb.

(I haven't played Shadow Dragon, so there might be worse characters there.)

I think the Fates cast is a bit underrated around these parts.

I feel like these descriptions contradict each other. You say she's forgettable, but also say she sticks out at the same time. Wouldn't a forgettable character not stick out at all?

Also, I don't think the Fates characters aren't underrated, considering that 6 of them were basically Awakening characters, the only insult they know is "______ scum!!!11!!", half the cast just had the personalities of the Awakening characters, a lot of them had little to no development; even Azura, one of the main cast, was pretty one-note and just there to move the story along. There are some gems in the cast though, but that could be for another topic.

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Pretty much all the basic bitch male characters with no personality apart from becoming stronger or hitting on women. So Hinata, Dorcas, Bartre, Sain etc.

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9 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

I feel like these descriptions contradict each other. You say she's forgettable, but also say she sticks out at the same time. Wouldn't a forgettable character not stick out at all?

I'm not the person who said that, but I think in this case, it means that Ilyana's inclusion is awkward and odd because she offers absolutely nothing in terms of character or story (thus sticking out amid a well-written and developed cast, for the most part). She's forgettable because she has no personality aside from "hungry all the time."

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1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

I'm not the person who said that, but I think in this case, it means that Ilyana's inclusion is awkward and odd because she offers absolutely nothing in terms of character or story (thus sticking out amid a well-written and developed cast, for the most part). She's forgettable because she has no personality aside from "hungry all the time."

Yes, this is what I meant, thanks for clarifying! (And sorry about the confusion...)

Edited by Heptade
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On 3/2/2017 at 9:28 PM, Extrasolar said:

I like Subaki in theory, because the idea of a guy under so much pressure to be perfect that he's cracking at the edges is fascinating to me, and we get word of his parents basically screwed him mentally by forcing the idea of perfection on him. ...But we don't see enough of those cracks underneath. Just when it seems like they're going that route, he gets back up and wins effortlessly anyway. I mean, he's generally nice and seems to like helping people, but his arrogance can be frustrating and eye-rolling sometimes. But yeah, he's a tank rather than a damage dealer

I agree with you on the Ike front. RD Ike seems like they went "Let's strip everything even remotely original or interesting about Ike in the previous game away, add about 100 pounds of muscle, and call it a day." Imo it's worse because a lot of the other units, namely the Dawn Brigade, were underdeveloped because the Greil Mercenaries had to come back into the spotlight. Love those guys, but that hurt RD overall.

I think my biggest dislike of Subaki stems from the fact that I was super excited for him and subsequently disappointed. I've always wanted a male pegasus knight character, and Subaki disappointed me as a unit and a personality. I'm a perfectionist myself, and I found it very difficult to identify with him at all. I think it would have been more realistic to play up his insecurities/anxieties than the perfection aspect. i know everyone's different, but for me perfectionism kind of means striving for this unreachable ideal and never really reaching it, so while everyone around you thinks you're perfect, you never do. But I never really got that vibe from him at all. Then again, I'm probably going to try using him again. (Because I must be insane, but I really want to like him for the reason above. ;A; ) I've had RNG trouble with Rinkah and Arthur in the past, and I've managed to make them pretty great units. 

Yeah. I totally get what you're saying. The Dawn Brigade had a lot of potential. I've been following a pretty cool fanfic that develops them as the main characters of the game. As much as I love the Greil mercs, it would have been more interesting to see them take a secondary role. The game might have been better if it had taken place maybe 20 or 30 years later. Sure, there are some things you would have had to fix, but we'd still get to interact with the characters we love while seeing a new generation take the torch.

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Corrin, specifically Nohrrin. If I don't count Corrin, well ... actually, I never really thought about that. Maybe Zelgius, but I actually don't hate him as much as several other characters.

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