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42 minutes ago, Troykv said:

If I can say something. Est probably left Abel and Akanea because both her Older Sister and her husband make her feel like garbage (after being kidnapped two or three times Palla half-joked about it in her conversation and literally name her a load; and Abel only loves Est because he feels the need to protect her, doesn't seems to know any good trait about her)

Also, it doesn't help that Palla also was in love with Abel.

To me, it still doesn't excuse things. She literally just drops everything and full out abandons him, rather than talking to him about it? If she felt that strongly, actually speak. She leaves him in utter misery and I can't forgive her for that. She's never going to be a likeable character to me because of that. She is just a load - she exists to get kidnapped and rescued, which makes her a character I tend to dislike anyway - and then she does that on top of it all. It riles me every time. 

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6 hours ago, Cute Chao said:

To me, it still doesn't excuse things. She literally just drops everything and full out abandons him, rather than talking to him about it? If she felt that strongly, actually speak. She leaves him in utter misery and I can't forgive her for that. She's never going to be a likeable character to me because of that. She is just a load - she exists to get kidnapped and rescued, which makes her a character I tend to dislike anyway - and then she does that on top of it all. It riles me every time. 

Maybe you think Est’s idea as completely childish, but you need to see this in the Est’s perspective.

Est isn’t a dumb girl, but rather she lacks practice, she is always trying to do her best, to be a better person and warrior; and this a lot of times end in her having troubles of some kind. Est is still a rookie, but she definitely has the potential and talent, and even some people in their conversations with her see it.

Also, I would like to mention again my small observation about Abel and Est’s relationship; there is an important element you should consider more seriously… Do you think a marriage where one of them is completely unsure of what they like about the other would be good? There is a reason Est cries when Abel is unable to answer what she likes about her, if you had ever been in a relationship you should know that doubting when your lover ask you what you like about them is one of the worst things you can do, that is a question you should be able to answer fast, sure and with security, because you love that person don't you? Saying why you love them shouldn't be a problem.


And after having this conversation with a husband that can't tell her why she loves her, an older sister who passively aggressively attacks her out of jealousy...do you REALLY expect Est to stick around and take it all? Est has every right to leave, in fact, any person with enough self respect would, a man who does what a Abel does is idiot, you shouldn't get with a person just to protect them, you should get with them because you love them no matter what, and I am sorry but Abel failed at that

Maybe instead of putting all the blame on Est like you're doing, you should be asking yourself "Is she really the only one doing wrong here?" Hold Abel to the same fire you're holding Est.

Edited by Troykv
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9 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Maybe you think Est’s idea as completely childish, but you need to see this in the Est’s perspective.

Est isn’t a dumb girl, but rather she lacks practice, she is always trying to do her best, to be a better person and warrior; and this a lot of times end in her having troubles of some kind. Est is still a rookie, but she definitely has the potential and talent, and even some people in their conversations with her see it.

Also, I would like to mention again my small observation about Abel and Est’s relationship; there is an important element you should consider more seriously… Do you think a marriage where one of them is completely unsure of what they like about the other would be good? There is a reason Est cries when Abel is unable to answer what she likes about her, if you had ever been in a relationship you should know that doubting when your lover ask you what you like about them is one of the worst things you can do, that is a question you should be able to answer fast, sure and with security, because you love that person don't you? Saying why you love them shouldn't be a problem.


And after having this conversation with a husband that can't tell her why she loves her, an older sister who passively aggressively attacks her out of jealousy...do you REALLY expect Est to stick around and take it all? Est has every right to leave, in fact, any person with enough self respect would, a man who does what a Abel does is idiot, you shouldn't get with a person just to protect them, you should get with them because you love them no matter what, and I am sorry but Abel failed at that

Maybe instead of putting all the blame on Est like you're doing, you should be asking yourself "Is she really the only one doing wrong here?" Hold Abel to the same fire you're holding Est.

In their support conversations, they both claim to love each other. In the support conversation with her other sisters, Est talks about how hard she works on the shop with Abel. And it's not just her husband she abandons, but both of her sisters. And again, if she is going to leave, which is fair enough - she has every right to - do NOT leave without saying anything to the man that does love you - that abandons and risks everything for you. Yes, Abel isn't good with words and he can't explain why he loves her - but he wouldn't want to protect her without reason, and she claims to love him to and yet puts him through that. Est does act like a child by simply running away. Not talking to Abel, explaining how she actually feels about his answer or seeing if that really is all or if he's just caught off guard/bad with words. Many people can't explain why they feel a certain way, and he clearly thought he'd given her an answer she was happy with because she just accepts it. So that's it. Up and at'em. No, if she wanted to leave, she should have made that clear. Palla is a bit passive-aggressive, but she is also clearly hurting and she mostly holds it back for Est, as she thinks they're happy together. Catria is over the moon for Est in their conversation. Est just ups and leaves everything and no, I won't forgive her for that. Abel didn't just abandon her without speaking to her. Yes, he should realise what her leaving means, but then with her perchance for getting kidnapped every frickin' game, maybe he has a right to be worried. But Abel wants to protect her for a reason, otherwise he'd get with any vapid little girl who came along needing protection (and in earlier fire emblems, kidnapping seemed pretty common, heck I think even Linde had been kidnapped or was being chased by people looking for her, and the whole of the third game is them finding a tonne of missing girls). So yes, talk to the person you're married too properly, instead of hiding your feelings and just expecting them to know (a common problem in marriages of many kind where one person or the other expects their other half to be psychic) instead of just leaving without a single goodbye. 

You're not going to change my mind about Est. You seem to want to grill Abel for wanting to protect and love the woman he married, when he did everything for her. She feels guilt for that and you can see that in her conversations, but why not then discuss that with him? Because she prefers to just run away like a stupid child. I don't particularly like Est even without this - her design or her character - but normally I just meh characters like her. It was the ending that tipped it fully over the edge for me. 

Edited by Cute Chao
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  • 2 weeks later...

Peri but she's an easy character to hate on. She's still my least favorite character in the series. I also don't like Tharja/Rhajat because creepy stalker whose love for Robin is actually questionable.

 

I also don't like Sigurd but for me, he's that type of character that you don't like just because.

Edited by Armagon
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My vote goes to Arthur. I bitterly dislike his personality and how much of a chauvinistic stereotype he exudes. He and Peri should get together sometime on the basis of them both being so insufferable. You can write a selfless character without making him an alpha male, IntSys. 

I don't like Roy all that much either, but I'd much rather him have the personality of stale mashed potatoes than be a self-professed, overly self-assured "Hero of Justice". 

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My vote goes to Arthur. I bitterly dislike his personality and how much of a chauvinistic stereotype he exudes. He and Peri should get together sometime on the basis of them both being so insufferable. You can write a selfless character without making him an alpha male, IntSys. 

I don't like Roy all that much either, but I'd much rather him have the personality of stale mashed potatoes than be a self-professed, overly self-assured "Hero of Justice". 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I like assholeish characters! Personally, I find the ultra-sweet moe cinnamon rolls uwu to be the worst. They make my teeth hurt.

Sumia, Felicia, and Micaiah all share that special rock-bottom place in my heart for that exact reason.

There's also Kyza, who...I won't say I hate him the most, but he was the first and only time I ever lost a unit without actually realizing he was gone. Seriously, I had no idea who he was until five chapters later, when I was checking the wiki for something totally irrelevant. So he's down there too.

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On 2017-3-3 at 8:42 PM, hunty said:

Pretty much all the basic bitch male characters with no personality apart from becoming stronger or hitting on women. So Hinata, Dorcas, Bartre, Sain etc.

And their female equivalents. i.e. Mia, Marisa, Fir 

Excuse me for being late to this people, only joined so long ago :P.

FE10 Sothe. He is of the Pokemon species "Micaiah" where all he says is Micaiah's name; and he's not even just a bland, bad character who worships Ike and Micaiah to the high heavens. Keeping him alive prior to Part 4 Endgame makes you want to scream and then even if you don't have to deploy him on map in Part 4 Endgame, he still takes up one slot in your Endgame team. 

Any character that has the floor they walk on worshipped by literally everyone around them and have bland personalities i.e. Robin, Corrin, Ike etc. Micaiah does not count because she's not entirely bland and has her moments, as well as doesn't come off to me as being made to like. 

Yet there's still a character I hate more than the rest of them; Tharja. Abusive mother, creepy stalker. 'Nuff said. Camilla is much the same but without the abusive mother side and has at least some redeeming traits. Tharja? None. Zilch. Finito. Why is she popular? Why is she fanserviced? Why do people like her? WHY MUST I LET ALONE HAVE TO QUESTION WHAT PEOPLE VALUE IN HUMAN BEINGS WHEN I FIND THEY LIKE HER CHARACTER-WISE?

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22 hours ago, Tibarn's Distracting Lisp said:

I like assholeish characters! Personally, I find the ultra-sweet moe cinnamon rolls uwu to be the worst. They make my teeth hurt.

Sumia, Felicia, and Micaiah all share that special rock-bottom place in my heart for that exact reason.

mm, I can get that on a visual level, but is that really accurate for micaiah? i never really got that impression from her

Edited by unique
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4 hours ago, unique said:

mm, I can get that on a visual level, but is that really accurate for micaiah? i never really got that impression from her

The sweetheart who sacrifices her body to heal others, talks to animals, and is considered beautiful and charming by pretty much everyone she meets is one thing too many for me. Tbh I would have loved her if the game continued a darker angle with her after she tried to set a 13-year-old on fire, but it kind of forgot and then let her be Beloved Queen of All Living Things? Just personal taste though, I won't get into the debate over whether she's objectively bad or not.

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2 minutes ago, Tibarn's Distracting Lisp said:

The sweetheart who sacrifices her body to heal others, talks to animals, and is considered beautiful and charming by pretty much everyone she meets is one thing too many for me. Tbh I would have loved her if the game continued a darker angle with her after she tried to set a 13-year-old on fire, but it kind of forgot and then let her be Beloved Queen of All Living Things? Just personal taste though, I won't get into the debate over whether she's objectively bad or not.

yeah I can see what you mean there I just didn't think it fit the description you mentioned earlier

there are definitely a lot of things I don't like about her character but she never came off as like, an obnoxiously sweet cute animu character

i think the problem you have with her is that she's a little too magically amazing

i'm pretty sure that's a thing a lot of people dislike about her

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Just now, unique said:

yeah I can see what you mean there I just didn't think it fit the description you mentioned earlier

there are definitely a lot of things I don't like about her character but she never came off as like, an obnoxiously sweet cute animu character

i think the problem you have with her is that she's a little too magically amazing

i'm pretty sure that's a thing a lot of people dislike about her

Yeah, you're probably right, and I've definitely seen that opinion from other people too. I guess it's kind of perception too tho? She definitely isn't lolicon bait or anything, but that amount of all-loving self-sacrifice still kind of makes me grimace unless it's on, like, a mom or something. But oh well. (What don't you like about her, if you don't mind me making conversation?)

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5 minutes ago, Tibarn's Distracting Lisp said:

Yeah, you're probably right, and I've definitely seen that opinion from other people too. I guess it's kind of perception too tho? She definitely isn't lolicon bait or anything, but that amount of all-loving self-sacrifice still kind of makes me grimace unless it's on, like, a mom or something. But oh well. (What don't you like about her, if you don't mind me making conversation?)

oh I don't really dislike her, in fact, I remember liking her to some extent, but I played radiant dawn quite a while back so it's hard for me to remember, and I also do remember disliking her on a few occasions as well

but if there's one thing I can definitely say I dislike about her it's her relationship with sothe

it felt like the worst, pointless, and most forced relationship out of the entire series.  they don't seem like lovers or even friends most of the time, sothe is like micaiah's bodyguard and micaiah is like sothe's annoying mom.  their interactions are so boring and I don't think I ever cared about anything they said to each other.  i'm not sure how well known this is, but one thing I really like about radiant dawn is that the game overs actually change for each chapter, and the main character of that chapter will say something different depending on which one you're in.

every single one of micaiah's mentions sothe.

radiant dawn sothe is honestly a contender for my least favorite. he's probably my least favorite out of the characters from the games I actually like, anyway. it's a shame cause I really liked him in path of radiance

so yeah I like micaiah at times but I hate sothe and I hate micaiah when she's with sothe. i don't remember much of her character but the... romance? between her and sothe was so bad that I did remember it. that is my current thoughts on micaiah! fuck sothe

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8 minutes ago, unique said:

so yeah I like micaiah at times but I hate sothe and I hate micaiah when she's with sothe. i don't remember much of her character but the... romance? between her and sothe was so bad that I did remember it. that is my current thoughts on micaiah! fuck sothe

Oh right, Sothe is in RD. There's so much going on there, I almost never notice him :')

I guess they had to tie the new protagonist  ("protagonist") to the old cast...somehow? I don't even know why him specifically, because you're right, it does feel forced, almost like having to write around a new relationship that creates a ton of plot holes and cheapens both characters was hard ? (also I legitimately never noticed her game overs all mentioning sothe, that's interesting! And, well, kind of lame. My strategy has always been "have someone pick her up so she isn't a liability and forget about her because I don't care." LOL)

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4 minutes ago, Tibarn's Distracting Lisp said:

Oh right, Sothe is in RD. There's so much going on there, I almost never notice him :')

I guess they had to tie the new protagonist  ("protagonist") to the old cast...somehow? I don't even know why him specifically, because you're right, it does feel forced, almost like having to write around a new relationship that creates a ton of plot holes and cheapens both characters was hard ? (also I legitimately never noticed her game overs all mentioning sothe, that's interesting! And, well, kind of lame. My strategy has always been "have someone pick her up so she isn't a liability and forget about her because I don't care." LOL)

i think it was actually planned for sothe to be more important in the sequel, since the reason sothe joins you in the first place was something along the lines of how he was going to daein to meet someone

and in radiant dawn you find out that the person he wanted to meet was micaiah

but yeah either way it really doesn't work and I didn't like it

it sort of ruined my opinions of both characters to an extent, but I at least kind of liked micaiah afterwards compared to sothe who I kinda just separate from his FE9 version now since I disliked him in FE10 that much (i sort of do the same for ike but I at least liked him a little in RD)

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4 minutes ago, unique said:

i think it was actually planned for sothe to be more important in the sequel, since the reason sothe joins you in the first place was something along the lines of how he was going to daein to meet someone

and in radiant dawn you find out that the person he wanted to meet was micaiah

but yeah either way it really doesn't work and I didn't like it

it sort of ruined my opinions of both characters to an extent, but I at least kind of liked micaiah afterwards compared to sothe who I kinda just separate from his FE9 version now since I disliked him in FE10 that much (i sort of do the same for ike but I at least liked him a little in RD)

True, but with the way it was executed I doubt that was the relationship dynamic they had planned. Was it that Tellius was really light on romance and that had to change with a main character? That's my only guess. (And tbh the lack of romance doesn't bother me, I find it refreshing, so this relationship is a little jarring.)

And that's fair. There are a few characters who I separate like that, too. Hey, if it prevents you from going all sacrificial lion on him, then...good? I guess? LOL.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Gosh there are so many...

Ike - More his fans than anything, but ugh...he really grinds my gears.

Cordelia - More her fans than anything, also that she never gets over Chrom in a majority of her supports. This is reflected in her item quotes, etc. Obviously, they're generic and all but IS could've tried...

Corrin - Oh good god, I can't stand Corrin. A lot of people have covered this...this...ugh, so yeah.

Takumi - I just can't stand him, especially in Conquest. The whole possession things just seems...pointless.

Hana - Heroes related.

Hinata - Heroes related.

Nyx - Never used her after I saw one of her supports. ONE.

All of the child units in Fates apart from Midori. Male Kana in particular...

Soren - I just really don't like him.

Effie - I find her rather lack-lustre.

Kris - Completely ruined New Mystery for me, took the spotlight away from Marth and Jagen.

Katarina - It's a no from me.

 

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In an earlier post in this thread, I was toying with whether I disliked Sothe or Ike more. Well, in this 3000 word essay, I finally have my answer. And it is entirely relevant to this thread.

The many, many reasons as to why I dislike Ike:

He has no flaws that hurts his character development, whether it's in PoR/RD. When he calls out on another character ( Sanaki, Lucia/Bastian etc. ), it just makes him look better by comparison. I'd have thought that anyone who would yell at the Apostle would get thrown in jail, but no. For an example of character flaws, see RD Elincia (inexperience)/Lucia (overconfidence). Or Jill (bigotry ). They all grow from this. Hell, even Miccy is flawed. Ike? No. Not even in FE9 is he flawed.

Sure, he 'hates' the nobility, but that's not a flaw. If IS had stuck to making him a noble who comes to realise how flawed the class hierachy is on Tellius, and watched how they would abuse the commoners (eg. Ramza from Final Fantasy Tactics ), then becoming a merc would have made perfect sense.

Then again, the only 'evil' nobles on Tellius are from Begnoin, and this is only shown much later in RD. If they had expanded on some of the more corrupt, power-scheming nobility from other countries (eg. Ludveck), the story as a whole would have been improved upon greatly AND give a solid reason for Ike's 'dislike of nobles'.

A true flaw is one that forces a character to rethink their actions and change their way of thinking. It's also an obstacle that probably would have resulted in some kind of tragedy. Sure Ike starts out as a green recruit but nothing he ever does results in him forcing to rethink his ways (he may have disobeyed Titania's orders, but the nepotism is so strong here that Ike doesn't even get slapped with punishment. And it's all down to the narrative once more kissing his arse. How convenient that word of Daien's invasion just happens to occur when Greil was about to punish his son...Then guess what. He kicks the bucket a week later, but I put this down to his arrogance, so I wasn't sorry at all that he died.

Imagine this scenario for an instant:

Ike, as the son of a noble house that has pledged its fealty to Crimea, leads his troops into battle against Daien. he is extremely confident in his ability with the sword (due to having Greil for a mentor and receiving daily tutoring from Crimea's top swordsmen; incidently, he'd probably be sparring partners with Lucia and he'd know Elincia) but makes a couple of mishaps. His recklessness and arrogance causes the losses of many casaulties and he is forced to reassess his behaviour. He is guilt-stricken and worried if his strength will be enough.

There. A perfect example of a character flaw.

He never makes a mistake and is always right.

He only becomes who he is simply because he just 'happened' to come across Crimea's princess. And this just leads from one contrived coincidence to another.

While I don't mind one or two coincidences (they are needed for some form of plot progression ), FE9 takes it to ridiculous extremes. From his father's  connection to BK; who is not only the right hand man to Ashnard, but he is ALSO connected to the big bad in FE10. BK also just happens to be obsessed with surpassing his master, which leads to the whole claptrap of Ike 'wanting to become stronger' (how riveting).

Ike's mother just so happens to be the only woman in the entire world (barring Mist) who could hold the medallion without going insane. And she just happened to cross paths with the sister of a heron prince who just happens to hate beorc. In a nutshell, if Ike's parents were perfectly normal, he'd be normal too. None of the other Lords parents in the series observe the almost stu-ish traits of Greil and Elena.. It would have made a lot more sense if the medallion had somehow found its way into the Crimean Royal Family. Then Ashnard would have at least have had a sound reason to pursue Elincia (which is what I do in my game)... The original game handles this in the most pathetic way however: The mercs refuse to hand her over, Daien attacks (did any of them know that one of the girls just happened to have the medallion that Ashnard was seeking so assiduously? Probably not. Another example of a contrived coincidence).

People think Miccy is a Sue, eh? Well, just think about Elena next time you say that. At least Miccy's powers were attributed to her heron lineage. Elena just seems like an ordinary woman who was so 'oh my god pure she doesn't go crazy' when holding the medallion.

THIS is an example of a sue trait, when no explanation is given whatsoever. It is basically 'Powers as the Plot Demands'. Just like with what happens to Ike at the end of RD: NO explanation is given why only he can land the killing blow on Ashera ("Because he's the main character!"some fans will say. BS, I say). A defining trait of a Sue/Stu is not only that they're flawless human beings. The entire narrative revolves around them and they are given positions of leadership and/or powers without any real explanation. People accept them unconditionally even if they have zero charisma (like Ike). People who dislike them/disagree with them are painted as obvious sleazeballs or the 'enemy' (see Shinon or Micaiah).

Or on forums, the people who dislike Ike are branded as ‘Ike-haters’.

Micaiah, for the record, is deconstruction of the Mary-Sue trope.

Of course, the most telling aspects is when there is far too much Author Investment in the character; you can tell that whoever designed their special snowflake  (read: the developers of FE9/10) is putting FAR too much emphasis on their character's FEATS ( read: Ike ) and not their PERSONALITY. A classic Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu exists purely so awesome things can happen to them. Want further proof? Whenever Ike's fans talk about him, it's always about his feats, not his supposed 'personality'. Of course, there are some who go out of their way ( and try really hard ) to emphasise that he is well-written and even has FLAWS.

I mean, I have to roll my eyes every time someone mentions Ike's 'bluntness' as a flaw. Despite his well-known shouting scene with Sanaki, did anything BAD happen to him as a result of this 'flaw'? No! It just made him look really damn good because even Elincia praised him for it. Because IS can't BEAR to paint Ike as the bad guy (see RD), amirite? Who can yell at little girls, tell them to stuff it, and walk away without incident? Or even better, talk down to dragon kings without getting fried?

This situation is made even worse when the same little girl (Sanaki) makes him a 'Lord' (lol'ing at this because it is so bloody unbelievable), therefore granting IS' beloved special snowflake command of the entire Crimean Liberation Army. A special snowflake who was, LESS THAN A YEAR AGO, a pathetic green recruit of a mercenary company. In other words, he was the least qualified member to get this position (apart from 'child soldiers' Mist and Rofl).

Let's take another example of a common Sue/Stu trait, shall we? They make other people (who are normally more intelligent, well-read, wiser, older etc ) look bad.

Beginning of Chapter 24 of FE9, for example. Geoffrey is about to be ambushed by Daien's forces, Lucia wants to get Elincia away from it all to a safer place. Ike says no, because yada-yada-yada she's my employee and all that crap. Elincia goes against HER BEST FRIEND's wishes to side with Ike, despite the fact that Geoffrey is a KNIGHT and would gladly die for Crimea! Lucia (who is an extremely intelligent woman) looks like a complete fool after this scene. Because of Ike. She clearly had Elincia's best intentions at heart, but the scene is written so horribly that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Once again, the writers are kissing Ike's arse to make him look good. One of the worst written scenes in FE9. Not to mention that Lucia's moment of true bad-assery in RD was ruined by Ike: All well that the mercs  saved her and all, but the scene is such pure Greil Mercenary fanservice that most people forget about it and her resulting pre-Execution speech.

Let us count Gary-Ike's feats, shall we?

- Has super awesome parents. Most Lords parents are perfectly ordinary.

- Defeats the Mad King, one of the strongest humans alive.

- Defeats the Black Knight. See above,

- Becomes a mercenary commander AND a general before he is 18, despite there being far more experienced people in his army.

- Gets lauded as a national Hero. Because of said contrived coincidences that led to it. And not as a result of him, but rather, Soren and Titania.

- Becomes a legend by the time he is twenty. Again, all due to contrived coincidence.

- Gets singled out by a god, despite said goddess granting almost equal power to other individuals.

- Hailed as incredibly strong and the only person who can wield a giant stick of butter with one hand. But the Alondite exists too...

- Defeats a god.

- Unites an entire continent, ends racism. All laguz love him.

- Gets praised alone at the end of Radiant Dawn, proving that FE10 was the Ike-show all along.

I sometimes wonder if the developers (who LOVE their special snowflake) were intending to make a full Greil Merc sequel and decided to add in Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade at the last minute. Which could explain why they are so shockingly under-developed. Why put all that time and effort into develop FE9’s cast, but don’t bother with the new characters in FE10? Why, IS?

Everyone except Shinon (who is my favourite GM) accepts Ike's leadership unconditionally after Greil dies, despite him having no leadership qualities. The one person who hates Ike is also presented as having some of the worst traits imaginable: a drunken, foul-mouthed racist... The other person who happens to leave the group isn't exactly a shining pillar of morality either: he's a womaniser. This is another common trait among Sues and Stus in fan-fiction.

He is most probably illiterate with low IQ and EQ (emotional intelligence) to match. He is far from intelligent and his brash actions over the course of both games (let alone failing to control his emotions) is a sure sign of it.

Essentially, he's nothing without Soren and Titania. Though if he had been a noble as mentioned earlier he at least would have had some experience with regards to military strategy and would have been ingrained with a bit of... diplomacy. Which a leader needs. A non-schooled illiterate who doesn't possess the slightest ounce of tact combined with a reckless persona is a disaster waiting to happen. A walking disaster who somehow ended up being hailed a national Hero and a general. If Ike was a real-life general in a war, he probably would have been killed in his first battle.

Ashnard and BK having blessed armour is basically IS's way of saying: "Screw off everyone, we want our special snowflake IKE to land the killing blow on the last boss!" I still don't understand how the laguz royals could damage Ashnard. What did they have, blessed claws and beaks? Again, no explanation given.

The blessed armour doesn't really fit Ashnard or BK: Both of them revels in fighting the strong; clothing themselves in impenetrable armour goes against the very ideal they live for. But both of them have literal plot armour so, yeah, you guessed it, special snowflake Ike can damage Ashnard, which makes for one of the most anti-climactic fights in the series: Ike doesn't even HAVE a connection with Ashnard, hell, he doesn't even know what Ashnard LOOKS like! So his self-righteous anger just looks pathetic in Repatriation.

 If anything, Elincia should have been the one to fell the Mad King. Boss fights against human opponents become riveting for one reason: The player character has a personal connection with their foe. And Ashnard is the big bad of FE9, NOT the Black Knight. Who is a classic example of a Villian Stu (since the Gary-Stu needs a foil, after all).

Want more examples of how IS just LOVES Ike? His battle animations were the only ones that used motion capture, everyone else was modeled off animation sheets (even Ashnard and the Black Knight. See Vol I of the Tellius Recollection if you want proof). Even more: He gets not one, not two, but three Pref. swords over the course of his two games: Regal Sword, Ettard and Ragnell. Most Lords are lucky to have two. He is frequently touted as being the strongest Hero ever, this is paraded in not only FE:Heroes, but FE13 and FE14, hell even his Einherjar is referred to as the strongest ever by old Hubba and even calls Ike his favourite card (Hubba can't be trusted anyway). And Outer Realms are BS anyway.

But probably the most blatant form of Ike worship happened in Heroes when the player couldn't damage him because Veronica made him unkillable. Yeah, Veronica turned him into God-Mode Stu. His Cipher cards are blatantly overpowered as well.

No explanation is given either why only Ike can use Ragnell in PoR/RD when a twin sword of it exists: Same power, gives off the same 'shockwaves (which I attribute to being magic-based and not 'omg Ike is so strong he just SLAMS his sword into the ground and creates an earthquake!' ). Again, Powers as the Plot Demands, a common Sue/Stu trait. The 'omg he is so strong he uses a two-handed sword with ONE hand?' Have you even seen how the swordmasters/trueblades fight? They too, fight with only one sword hand...

Made worse by the fact when the majority of the fanbase seem to forget that Alm exists too. Wielded a fairly large sword with one-hand? Killed a god? Trained by an elite swordsman? Check times three. And did it before Ike made it 'cool'.

He gets called a 'veteran' (or rather referred to as one;  Sigrun's speech to him before 3-11 disgusts me despite the fact that Ike fought in only ONE war ( and even so, the GMs weren't even involved in a true war at any point). What the player sees in FE9/10 are just little skirmishes. The REAL battles were being fought by the armies of the Crimean Royal Knights and Begnion's forces. The mercs do not have the authority to lead the front lines. The snippet from 3-12 is pathetic as well, where the freakin' Holy Guard can't protect their bloody Empress, they need to run to IKE for help. Seriously...

Let me not even get into his overpowered Endgame stat caps for both PoR and RD. But his Vanguard class is the worse example. How can a guy of 12 Con only have 3 less capped Speed than a Trueblade/Whisper? Not only is he bulky, but that armour has to really weigh him down ( or maybe the designers were thinking of giving him a 40 SPD cap minus three for the armour he wears... He gets praised as the strongest human on Tellius (because story > gameplay amirite?), but both Haar/Boyd/Nolan (with Gatrie tying for Ike with Str) have higher Strength caps. If his cap had been around 40 with less speed, I would have found it easier to believe.

As for the Black Knight fight (and every fight before that): Ike's stats are calculated so that he absolutely dominates every single enemy save for Swordmasters in Part 3.

While his RES is piss poor, mages are so uncommon and magic has been nerfed so Ike's 'flawed' stat doesn't even hurt him (unless he is being put to Sleep by Laura in 3-13 and gets thwomped with Purge by Miccy). See, even GAMEPLAY wise, his FLAW doensn't hurt him! Also has the Earth affinity, the most broken affinity in the game. BEXP also exists to mitigate all of his other stats (like his pathetic SPD and RES growths). So IS wasn't even trying to hide the fact that even when it comes to gameplay, their special snowflake is still overpowered.

If the Black Knight had been fighting Ike at his full strength (40 Str and 45 MaxDef), BK would have won. But once again the narrative uses the BS excuse of warp powder weakening BK. It had no effect on him in PoR, where he used it several times. Ike only gained hammers on promotion in RD so he could score a cheap win with the Hammer (so even that cutscene when he fights BK with Ragnell is false).

He is the only one who can defeat Ashnard and Ashera (though hacking RD has revealed that every single beorc unit had the 'Goddess Slayer' move, which is essentially a non-lethal critical animation. Ike's 'Great Aether' is exactly that: A non-standard crit, only he is surrounded by blue flames. Basically, he goes God-Mode Stu). Of course, this is all ridiculous in retrospect as well, because Ashera comes back centuries later and fuses with Yune, making the entirety of Endgame in RD a massive farce. Then again, Part 3 and 4 as a whole are dog shows.

And worse of all, he steals Micaiah's spotlight, not only in Part 3 (which should have fleshed the DBs out more), but Endgame as well when Ike talks to Yune's spirit. I always thought that scene should have belonged to Miccy. RD should have been Miccy's game, not the Ike-show.

He kills the entire narrative structure of both games because he is so boring. From his dull, unemotional manner of speaking to his terrible voice actor (who was thankfully axed in Heroes), you can't glean ANY sort of personality from him. Ever wonder why Part 2 of RD has one of the best narratives in the series? Because it had the best characters from the Tellius duology. Tellius suffers as a whole solely because of Ike.

And the whole 'we are family' speech too. Ends up looking like a complete hypocrite after he disappears and is never seen again.

Now you know why I HATE Ike.

0/10 Worst Lord in FE.

 

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30 minutes ago, Luchi said:

In an earlier post in this thread, I was toying with whether I disliked Sothe or Ike more. Well, in this 3000 word essay, I finally have my answer. And it is entirely relevant to this thread.

 

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The many, many reasons as to why I dislike Ike:

He has no flaws that hurts his character development, whether it's in PoR/RD. When he calls out on another character ( Sanaki, Lucia/Bastian etc. ), it just makes him look better by comparison. I'd have thought that anyone who would yell at the Apostle would get thrown in jail, but no. For an example of character flaws, see RD Elincia (inexperience)/Lucia (overconfidence). Or Jill (bigotry ). They all grow from this. Hell, even Miccy is flawed. Ike? No. Not even in FE9 is he flawed.

Sure, he 'hates' the nobility, but that's not a flaw. If IS had stuck to making him a noble who comes to realise how flawed the class hierachy is on Tellius, and watched how they would abuse the commoners (eg. Ramza from Final Fantasy Tactics ), then becoming a merc would have made perfect sense.

Then again, the only 'evil' nobles on Tellius are from Begnoin, and this is only shown much later in RD. If they had expanded on some of the more corrupt, power-scheming nobility from other countries (eg. Ludveck), the story as a whole would have been improved upon greatly AND give a solid reason for Ike's 'dislike of nobles'.

A true flaw is one that forces a character to rethink their actions and change their way of thinking. It's also an obstacle that probably would have resulted in some kind of tragedy. Sure Ike starts out as a green recruit but nothing he ever does results in him forcing to rethink his ways (he may have disobeyed Titania's orders, but the nepotism is so strong here that Ike doesn't even get slapped with punishment. And it's all down to the narrative once more kissing his arse. How convenient that word of Daien's invasion just happens to occur when Greil was about to punish his son...Then guess what. He kicks the bucket a week later, but I put this down to his arrogance, so I wasn't sorry at all that he died.

Imagine this scenario for an instant:

Ike, as the son of a noble house that has pledged its fealty to Crimea, leads his troops into battle against Daien. he is extremely confident in his ability with the sword (due to having Greil for a mentor and receiving daily tutoring from Crimea's top swordsmen; incidently, he'd probably be sparring partners with Lucia and he'd know Elincia) but makes a couple of mishaps. His recklessness and arrogance causes the losses of many casaulties and he is forced to reassess his behaviour. He is guilt-stricken and worried if his strength will be enough.

There. A perfect example of a character flaw.

He never makes a mistake and is always right.

He only becomes who he is simply because he just 'happened' to come across Crimea's princess. And this just leads from one contrived coincidence to another.

While I don't mind one or two coincidences (they are needed for some form of plot progression ), FE9 takes it to ridiculous extremes. From his father's  connection to BK; who is not only the right hand man to Ashnard, but he is ALSO connected to the big bad in FE10. BK also just happens to be obsessed with surpassing his master, which leads to the whole claptrap of Ike 'wanting to become stronger' (how riveting).

Ike's mother just so happens to be the only woman in the entire world (barring Mist) who could hold the medallion without going insane. And she just happened to cross paths with the sister of a heron prince who just happens to hate beorc. In a nutshell, if Ike's parents were perfectly normal, he'd be normal too. None of the other Lords parents in the series observe the almost stu-ish traits of Greil and Elena.. It would have made a lot more sense if the medallion had somehow found its way into the Crimean Royal Family. Then Ashnard would have at least have had a sound reason to pursue Elincia (which is what I do in my game)... The original game handles this in the most pathetic way however: The mercs refuse to hand her over, Daien attacks (did any of them know that one of the girls just happened to have the medallion that Ashnard was seeking so assiduously? Probably not. Another example of a contrived coincidence).

People think Miccy is a Sue, eh? Well, just think about Elena next time you say that. At least Miccy's powers were attributed to her heron lineage. Elena just seems like an ordinary woman who was so 'oh my god pure she doesn't go crazy' when holding the medallion.

THIS is an example of a sue trait, when no explanation is given whatsoever. It is basically 'Powers as the Plot Demands'. Just like with what happens to Ike at the end of RD: NO explanation is given why only he can land the killing blow on Ashera ("Because he's the main character!"some fans will say. BS, I say). A defining trait of a Sue/Stu is not only that they're flawless human beings. The entire narrative revolves around them and they are given positions of leadership and/or powers without any real explanation. People accept them unconditionally even if they have zero charisma (like Ike). People who dislike them/disagree with them are painted as obvious sleazeballs or the 'enemy' (see Shinon or Micaiah).

Or on forums, the people who dislike Ike are branded as ‘Ike-haters’.

Micaiah, for the record, is deconstruction of the Mary-Sue trope.

Of course, the most telling aspects is when there is far too much Author Investment in the character; you can tell that whoever designed their special snowflake  (read: the developers of FE9/10) is putting FAR too much emphasis on their character's FEATS ( read: Ike ) and not their PERSONALITY. A classic Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu exists purely so awesome things can happen to them. Want further proof? Whenever Ike's fans talk about him, it's always about his feats, not his supposed 'personality'. Of course, there are some who go out of their way ( and try really hard ) to emphasise that he is well-written and even has FLAWS.

I mean, I have to roll my eyes every time someone mentions Ike's 'bluntness' as a flaw. Despite his well-known shouting scene with Sanaki, did anything BAD happen to him as a result of this 'flaw'? No! It just made him look really damn good because even Elincia praised him for it. Because IS can't BEAR to paint Ike as the bad guy (see RD), amirite? Who can yell at little girls, tell them to stuff it, and walk away without incident? Or even better, talk down to dragon kings without getting fried?

This situation is made even worse when the same little girl (Sanaki) makes him a 'Lord' (lol'ing at this because it is so bloody unbelievable), therefore granting IS' beloved special snowflake command of the entire Crimean Liberation Army. A special snowflake who was, LESS THAN A YEAR AGO, a pathetic green recruit of a mercenary company. In other words, he was the least qualified member to get this position (apart from 'child soldiers' Mist and Rofl).

Let's take another example of a common Sue/Stu trait, shall we? They make other people (who are normally more intelligent, well-read, wiser, older etc ) look bad.

Beginning of Chapter 24 of FE9, for example. Geoffrey is about to be ambushed by Daien's forces, Lucia wants to get Elincia away from it all to a safer place. Ike says no, because yada-yada-yada she's my employee and all that crap. Elincia goes against HER BEST FRIEND's wishes to side with Ike, despite the fact that Geoffrey is a KNIGHT and would gladly die for Crimea! Lucia (who is an extremely intelligent woman) looks like a complete fool after this scene. Because of Ike. She clearly had Elincia's best intentions at heart, but the scene is written so horribly that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Once again, the writers are kissing Ike's arse to make him look good. One of the worst written scenes in FE9. Not to mention that Lucia's moment of true bad-assery in RD was ruined by Ike: All well that the mercs  saved her and all, but the scene is such pure Greil Mercenary fanservice that most people forget about it and her resulting pre-Execution speech.

Let us count Gary-Ike's feats, shall we?

- Has super awesome parents. Most Lords parents are perfectly ordinary.

- Defeats the Mad King, one of the strongest humans alive.

- Defeats the Black Knight. See above,

- Becomes a mercenary commander AND a general before he is 18, despite there being far more experienced people in his army.

- Gets lauded as a national Hero. Because of said contrived coincidences that led to it. And not as a result of him, but rather, Soren and Titania.

- Becomes a legend by the time he is twenty. Again, all due to contrived coincidence.

- Gets singled out by a god, despite said goddess granting almost equal power to other individuals.

- Hailed as incredibly strong and the only person who can wield a giant stick of butter with one hand. But the Alondite exists too...

- Defeats a god.

- Unites an entire continent, ends racism. All laguz love him.

- Gets praised alone at the end of Radiant Dawn, proving that FE10 was the Ike-show all along.

I sometimes wonder if the developers (who LOVE their special snowflake) were intending to make a full Greil Merc sequel and decided to add in Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade at the last minute. Which could explain why they are so shockingly under-developed. Why put all that time and effort into develop FE9’s cast, but don’t bother with the new characters in FE10? Why, IS?

Everyone except Shinon (who is my favourite GM) accepts Ike's leadership unconditionally after Greil dies, despite him having no leadership qualities. The one person who hates Ike is also presented as having some of the worst traits imaginable: a drunken, foul-mouthed racist... The other person who happens to leave the group isn't exactly a shining pillar of morality either: he's a womaniser. This is another common trait among Sues and Stus in fan-fiction.

He is most probably illiterate with low IQ and EQ (emotional intelligence) to match. He is far from intelligent and his brash actions over the course of both games (let alone failing to control his emotions) is a sure sign of it.

Essentially, he's nothing without Soren and Titania. Though if he had been a noble as mentioned earlier he at least would have had some experience with regards to military strategy and would have been ingrained with a bit of... diplomacy. Which a leader needs. A non-schooled illiterate who doesn't possess the slightest ounce of tact combined with a reckless persona is a disaster waiting to happen. A walking disaster who somehow ended up being hailed a national Hero and a general. If Ike was a real-life general in a war, he probably would have been killed in his first battle.

Ashnard and BK having blessed armour is basically IS's way of saying: "Screw off everyone, we want our special snowflake IKE to land the killing blow on the last boss!" I still don't understand how the laguz royals could damage Ashnard. What did they have, blessed claws and beaks? Again, no explanation given.

The blessed armour doesn't really fit Ashnard or BK: Both of them revels in fighting the strong; clothing themselves in impenetrable armour goes against the very ideal they live for. But both of them have literal plot armour so, yeah, you guessed it, special snowflake Ike can damage Ashnard, which makes for one of the most anti-climactic fights in the series: Ike doesn't even HAVE a connection with Ashnard, hell, he doesn't even know what Ashnard LOOKS like! So his self-righteous anger just looks pathetic in Repatriation.

 If anything, Elincia should have been the one to fell the Mad King. Boss fights against human opponents become riveting for one reason: The player character has a personal connection with their foe. And Ashnard is the big bad of FE9, NOT the Black Knight. Who is a classic example of a Villian Stu (since the Gary-Stu needs a foil, after all).

Want more examples of how IS just LOVES Ike? His battle animations were the only ones that used motion capture, everyone else was modeled off animation sheets (even Ashnard and the Black Knight. See Vol I of the Tellius Recollection if you want proof). Even more: He gets not one, not two, but three Pref. swords over the course of his two games: Regal Sword, Ettard and Ragnell. Most Lords are lucky to have two. He is frequently touted as being the strongest Hero ever, this is paraded in not only FE:Heroes, but FE13 and FE14, hell even his Einherjar is referred to as the strongest ever by old Hubba and even calls Ike his favourite card (Hubba can't be trusted anyway). And Outer Realms are BS anyway.

But probably the most blatant form of Ike worship happened in Heroes when the player couldn't damage him because Veronica made him unkillable. Yeah, Veronica turned him into God-Mode Stu. His Cipher cards are blatantly overpowered as well.

No explanation is given either why only Ike can use Ragnell in PoR/RD when a twin sword of it exists: Same power, gives off the same 'shockwaves (which I attribute to being magic-based and not 'omg Ike is so strong he just SLAMS his sword into the ground and creates an earthquake!' ). Again, Powers as the Plot Demands, a common Sue/Stu trait. The 'omg he is so strong he uses a two-handed sword with ONE hand?' Have you even seen how the swordmasters/trueblades fight? They too, fight with only one sword hand...

Made worse by the fact when the majority of the fanbase seem to forget that Alm exists too. Wielded a fairly large sword with one-hand? Killed a god? Trained by an elite swordsman? Check times three. And did it before Ike made it 'cool'.

He gets called a 'veteran' (or rather referred to as one;  Sigrun's speech to him before 3-11 disgusts me despite the fact that Ike fought in only ONE war ( and even so, the GMs weren't even involved in a true war at any point). What the player sees in FE9/10 are just little skirmishes. The REAL battles were being fought by the armies of the Crimean Royal Knights and Begnion's forces. The mercs do not have the authority to lead the front lines. The snippet from 3-12 is pathetic as well, where the freakin' Holy Guard can't protect their bloody Empress, they need to run to IKE for help. Seriously...

Let me not even get into his overpowered Endgame stat caps for both PoR and RD. But his Vanguard class is the worse example. How can a guy of 12 Con only have 3 less capped Speed than a Trueblade/Whisper? Not only is he bulky, but that armour has to really weigh him down ( or maybe the designers were thinking of giving him a 40 SPD cap minus three for the armour he wears... He gets praised as the strongest human on Tellius (because story > gameplay amirite?), but both Haar/Boyd/Nolan (with Gatrie tying for Ike with Str) have higher Strength caps. If his cap had been around 40 with less speed, I would have found it easier to believe.

As for the Black Knight fight (and every fight before that): Ike's stats are calculated so that he absolutely dominates every single enemy save for Swordmasters in Part 3.

While his RES is piss poor, mages are so uncommon and magic has been nerfed so Ike's 'flawed' stat doesn't even hurt him (unless he is being put to Sleep by Laura in 3-13 and gets thwomped with Purge by Miccy). See, even GAMEPLAY wise, his FLAW doensn't hurt him! Also has the Earth affinity, the most broken affinity in the game. BEXP also exists to mitigate all of his other stats (like his pathetic SPD and RES growths). So IS wasn't even trying to hide the fact that even when it comes to gameplay, their special snowflake is still overpowered.

If the Black Knight had been fighting Ike at his full strength (40 Str and 45 MaxDef), BK would have won. But once again the narrative uses the BS excuse of warp powder weakening BK. It had no effect on him in PoR, where he used it several times. Ike only gained hammers on promotion in RD so he could score a cheap win with the Hammer (so even that cutscene when he fights BK with Ragnell is false).

He is the only one who can defeat Ashnard and Ashera (though hacking RD has revealed that every single beorc unit had the 'Goddess Slayer' move, which is essentially a non-lethal critical animation. Ike's 'Great Aether' is exactly that: A non-standard crit, only he is surrounded by blue flames. Basically, he goes God-Mode Stu). Of course, this is all ridiculous in retrospect as well, because Ashera comes back centuries later and fuses with Yune, making the entirety of Endgame in RD a massive farce. Then again, Part 3 and 4 as a whole are dog shows.

And worse of all, he steals Micaiah's spotlight, not only in Part 3 (which should have fleshed the DBs out more), but Endgame as well when Ike talks to Yune's spirit. I always thought that scene should have belonged to Miccy. RD should have been Miccy's game, not the Ike-show.

He kills the entire narrative structure of both games because he is so boring. From his dull, unemotional manner of speaking to his terrible voice actor (who was thankfully axed in Heroes), you can't glean ANY sort of personality from him. Ever wonder why Part 2 of RD has one of the best narratives in the series? Because it had the best characters from the Tellius duology. Tellius suffers as a whole solely because of Ike.

And the whole 'we are family' speech too. Ends up looking like a complete hypocrite after he disappears and is never seen again.

Now you know why I HATE Ike.

0/10 Worst Lord in FE.

 

 

 

*wipes tear* That was beautiful, that is literally my reason for hating Ike. I do have to disagree with one thing, though. Ike is a veteran. I have a firm belief that if you've fought in one war, you've fought in them all. But other than that, you're spot on, my friend.

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This one's really easy: Matthis. He has horrific stats/level up growths in every game he's been in, and his AI seems to have no qualms killing Lena (his own sister). She's required to recruit him in Shadow Dragon and the first Fire Emblem game.

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