Ice Dragon's stats research: Stats, calculations, and whatnot

[MaskedAmpharos]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

An opponent's Quick Riposte or Brash Assault both is negated by and negates Wary Fighter's effect on the opponent. There's no reason your own Quick Riposte or Brash Assault should not both be negated by and negate Wary Fighter's effect on yourself.

Oh okay I wasn't aware of that. In that case, I'm not sure. Let me know how Wary Fighter interacts with Armads whenever you conduct your research!

[Ice Dragon]

Confirmed that Durandal stacks with Death Blow.

Eliwood with Durandal (+4 Atk when initiating combat) and Death Blow 1 (+2 Atk when initiating combat) with 30 Atk against Axe Pegasus with 8 Def deals 35 damage.

(30 + 4 + 2) x 1.2 - 8 = (36) x 1.2 - 8 = 43 - 8 = 35.

 

Hector with Wary Fighter coming later tonight.

EDIT: Okay, I got impatient. HECTOR WITH WARY FIGHTER WILL DOUBLE ATTACK ON COUNTERATTACK IF HE IS FAST ENOUGH.

Hector with Armads and Wary Fighter 1 at full health with 12 Spd double attacked both a Lance Fighter with 4 Spd and a Sword Armor with 0 Spd on counterattack.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[MaskedAmpharos]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Confirmed that Durandal stacks with Death Blow.

Eliwood with Durandal (+4 Atk when initiating combat) and Death Blow 1 (+2 Atk when initiating combat) with 30 Atk against Axe Pegasus with 8 Def deals 35 damage.

(30 + 4 + 2) x 1.2 - 8 = (36) x 1.2 - 8 = 43 - 8 = 35.

 

Hector with Wary Fighter coming later tonight.

EDIT: Okay, I got impatient. HECTOR WITH WARY FIGHTER WILL DOUBLE ATTACK ON COUNTERATTACK IF HE IS FAST ENOUGH.

Hector with Armads and Wary Fighter 1 at full health with 12 Spd double attacked both a Lance Fighter with 4 Spd and a Sword Armor with 0 Spd on counterattack.

Well shit. Hector just got a lot more terrifying. 

[Ice Dragon]

47 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Well shit. Hector just got a lot more terrifying. 

+Spd Hector will double anything 23 Spd and under, which isn't a lot of things. It'd only be particularly terrifying with a full team stacking Goad Armor (where he will double anything with 35 Spd and under).

[BestFriendJ0]

11 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Confirmed that Durandal stacks with Death Blow.

Eliwood with Durandal (+4 Atk when initiating combat) and Death Blow 1 (+2 Atk when initiating combat) with 30 Atk against Axe Pegasus with 8 Def deals 35 damage.

(30 + 4 + 2) x 1.2 - 8 = (36) x 1.2 - 8 = 43 - 8 = 35.

 

I think everything except the visible buffs are stack-able. So Defiant Attack and Hone Attack can't stack, but Hone Attack, Death Blow, and Goad Cavalry would all combine. The only thing I'm not sure about is if something like Goad Cavalry can stack with itself or just other buffs. 

It may be that all invisible buffs can stack with themselves, which would be pretty cool.

 

EDIT: Oh you already answered my question and I missed it, whoops.

Edited March 22, 2017 by BestFriendJ0
I'm silly

[MaskedAmpharos]

6 minutes ago, BestFriendJ0 said:

I think everything except the visible buffs are stack-able. So Defiant Attack and Hone Attack can't stack, but Hone Attack, Death Blow, and Goad Cavalry would all combine. The only thing I'm not sure about is if something like Goad Cavalry can stack with itself or just other buffs. 

It may be that all invisible buffs can stack with themselves, which would be pretty cool.

I'm fairly certain all in-combat buffs stack, so having 3 Goad Cavalry skills would stack with each other. It's already been confirmed that Spur skills stack with each other, and the Goad skills are basically slightly stronger, unit-specific spur skills, so I see no reason they wouldn't stack. 

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, BestFriendJ0 said:

I think everything except the visible buffs are stack-able. So Defiant Attack and Hone Attack can't stack, but Hone Attack, Death Blow, and Goad Cavalry would all combine. The only thing I'm not sure about is if something like Goad Cavalry can stack with itself or just other buffs. 

It may be that all invisible buffs can stack with themselves, which would be pretty cool.

The point was to decisively test if the same skill equipped on the same character stacks with itself for all varieties of skills. All signs prior to the test leaned towards Blow skills stacking with themselves, but my test was simply to confirm those signs.

 

Goad/Ward skills do stack. A team of 4 Hectors is not just scary being 4 Hectors, but also because if they stay together, each of the 4 Hectors has 3 instances of Goad Armor on them for a total of +12 Atk and +12 Spd.

[BestFriendJ0]

Just gonna put it out there since I think having a definitive list would be nice

finding out what targets the AI prioritizes would make it a lot easier to deal with some of those 5 star maps.

I've noticed things like you can use a disadvantaged unit to bait enemies across the map as they will be targeted before they are even in range.

So far I've noticed the AI usually, try to get type advantage, will never ignore a unit, also like to target units which can't counter attack, and they like to finish units off.

But I'm not sure what order the game prioritizes these things in.

An example situation of what I'm wondering about is: Say there is an enemy with a hammer, within their range you have a lance cavalry unit, an axe armor, a mage without close counter, and a unit with low hp who is the only one that will be knocked out should they be attacked. Who will the AI go for?

Why might this be nice?

If type advantage has priority over knockouts, you don't have to worry about losing a weakened unit left within enemy range if you also leave a type disadvantaged unit within their range. (Although I don't think type advantage has priority over knockouts, being unable to counter attack might, so a tanky mage/archer/thief could take a hit instead of losing a unit)

[Ice Dragon]

17 minutes ago, BestFriendJ0 said:

Just gonna put it out there since I think having a definitive list would be nice

finding out what targets the AI prioritizes would make it a lot easier to deal with some of those 5 star maps.

I've noticed things like you can use a disadvantaged unit to bait enemies across the map as they will be targeted before they are even in range.

So far I've noticed the AI usually, try to get type advantage, will never ignore a unit, also like to target units which can't counter attack, and they like to finish units off.

But I'm not sure what order the game prioritizes these things in.

An example situation of what I'm wondering about is: Say there is an enemy with a hammer, within their range you have a lance cavalry unit, an axe armor, a mage without close counter, and a unit with low hp who is the only one that will be knocked out should they be attacked. Who will the AI go for?

Why might this be nice?

If type advantage has priority over knockouts, you don't have to worry about losing a weakened unit left within enemy range if you also leave a type disadvantaged unit within their range. (Although I don't think type advantage has priority over knockouts, being unable to counter attack might, so a tanky mage/archer/thief could take a hit instead of losing a unit)

I can say without a doubt that the AI will prioritize enemies that a unit can kill in one round of combat first. I believe the AI will prioritize enemies that a unit can kill with help from an ally next. After that, priority is weighted based on the amount of damage the unit can do and how much damage the unit will receive.

[BestFriendJ0]

42 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I can say without a doubt that the AI will prioritize enemies that a unit can kill in one round of combat first. I believe the AI will prioritize enemies that a unit can kill with help from an ally next. After that, priority is weighted based on the amount of damage the unit can do and how much damage the unit will receive.

I did notice they use the gang up tactic every now and then, any idea what damage dealt/received ratio is most favorable to them? (given the choice between dealing high damage and receiving high damage vs dealing low damage but receiving very little damage which would they prefer?)

 

EDIT: Ok, thanks for the info!

Edited April 1, 2017 by BestFriendJ0
too little content for a new post

[Ice Dragon]

12 minutes ago, BestFriendJ0 said:

I did notice they use the gang up tactic every now and then, any idea what damage dealt/received ratio is most favorable to them? (given the choice between dealing high damage and receiving high damage vs dealing low damage but receiving very little damage which would they prefer?)

Dealing more damage seems to be preferred over taking less damage, but I don't have the data to give exact numbers.

[MaskedAmpharos]

@Ice Dragon Idk if this has already been researched or not, but do you know whether or not Heavy Blade will lower CD with every hit of a Brave weapon? 

EDIT: Upon further reflection, I realized that, even if it did, it wouldn't be nearly as useful as I first thought, which is a shame.

I'd still be interested in knowing though, just out of curiosity, though I can't think of a reason it wouldn't.

Edited April 30, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[Ice Dragon]

On 4/29/2017 at 9:41 PM, MaskedAmpharos said:

@Ice Dragon Idk if this has already been researched or not, but do you know whether or not Heavy Blade will lower CD with every hit of a Brave weapon? 

EDIT: Upon further reflection, I realized that, even if it did, it wouldn't be nearly as useful as I first thought, which is a shame.

I'd still be interested in knowing though, just out of curiosity, though I can't think of a reason it wouldn't.

I can't think of any reason it wouldn't. Brave weapon attacks aren't counted any differently than any other attack. An attack is an attack no matter how it happens.

[MaskedAmpharos]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I can't think of any reason it wouldn't. Brave weapon attacks aren't counted any differently than any other attack. An attack is an attack no matter how it happens.

Yeah, I realized after I posted. I feel a bit silly now.

Thanks anyways though. 

[shadowofchaos]

On 03/22/2017 at 0:27 PM, Ice Dragon said:

Goad/Ward skills do stack. A team of 4 Hectors is not just scary being 4 Hectors, but also because if they stay together, each of the 4 Hectors has 3 instances of Goad Armor on them for a total of +12 Atk and +12 Spd.

So Goad/Ward do stack, while hone and Fortify don't?

[Korath88]

3 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

So Goad/Ward do stack, while hone and Fortify don't?

Goad, Ward and Spur skills stack as they are invisible buffs.

Hone and Fortify skills have visible buffs shown by the light blue numbers, those can't be stacked, only the largest buff is taken.

[Korath88]

3 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

So Goad/Ward do stack, while hone and Fortify don't?

Goad, Ward and Spur skills stack as they are invisible buffs.

Hone and Fortify skills have visible buffs shown by the light blue numbers, those can't be stacked, only the largest buff is taken.

[shadowofchaos]

1 minute ago, Korath88 said:

Goad, Ward and Spur skills stack as they are invisible buffs.

Hone and Fortify skills have visible buffs shown by the light blue numbers, those can't be stacked, only the largest buff is taken.

Ah riiiight. They're +4 within two spaces of the type.

[Ice Dragon]

I'm planning on updating the section on follow-up attacks based on some earlier testing a few weeks back.

I'm going to call this "speed priority" for the time being even if it's not entirely accurate. If anyone has a better name, feel free to chime in.

• If the difference between two units' Spd stats is 5 or greater, the unit with higher Spd gets +1 speed priority. The unit with lower Spd gets +0.
• Weaponbreaker skills and Assassin's Bow give the unit +1 speed priority and the opponent -1.
• Armads, Quick Riposte, and Brash Assault give the unit +1 speed priority and the opponent +0.
• Windsweep and Watersweep give the unit -1 speed priority.
• Wary Fighter gives both combatants -1 speed priority.

If a unit has +1 or higher speed priority after all points are tallied, the unit double attacks. If a unit has zero or lower speed priority after all points are tallied, the unit fails to double attack.

This means that Hector with Armads and Lancebreaker will double attack Wary Fighter Effie on enemy phase even if Hector is slower than Effie. Hector has Armads (+1), Lancebreaker (+1), and Effie's Wary Fighter (-1) for a total of +1. Effie has Wary Fighter (-1) and Hector's Lancebreaker (-1) for a total of -2 (-1 if Effie has 5 more Spd than Hector).

Assuming that Armads and Quick Riposte count as separate effects, this means that theoretically, Hector with Armads and Quick Riposte can double attack on enemy phase regardless of his Spd and regardless of if the opponent has an effect that prevents Hector from double attacking (because Hector has +2 speed priority and there is no currently legal combination of skills to inflict more than -1 to your opponent since Weaponbreaker skills and Wary Fighter are incompatible).

[LordFrigid]

19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm planning on updating the section on follow-up attacks based on some earlier testing a few weeks back.

I'm going to call this "speed priority" for the time being even if it's not entirely accurate. If anyone has a better name, feel free to chime in.

• If the difference between two units' Spd stats is 5 or greater, the unit with higher Spd gets +1 speed priority. The unit with lower Spd gets +0.
• Weaponbreaker skills and Assassin's Bow give the unit +1 speed priority and the opponent -1.
• Armads, Quick Riposte, and Brash Assault give the unit +1 speed priority and the opponent +0.
• Windsweep and Watersweep give the unit -1 speed priority.
• Wary Fighter gives both combatants -1 speed priority.

If a unit has +1 or higher speed priority after all points are tallied, the unit double attacks. If a unit has zero or lower speed priority after all points are tallied, the unit fails to double attack.

This means that Hector with Armads and Lancebreaker will double attack Wary Fighter Effie on enemy phase even if Hector is slower than Effie. Hector has Armads (+1), Lancebreaker (+1), and Effie's Wary Fighter (-1) for a total of +1. Effie has Wary Fighter (-1) and Hector's Lancebreaker (-1) for a total of -2 (-1 if Effie has 5 more Spd than Hector).

Assuming that Armads and Quick Riposte count as separate effects, this means that theoretically, Hector with Armads and Quick Riposte can double attack on enemy phase regardless of his Spd and regardless of if the opponent has an effect that prevents Hector from double attacking (because Hector has +2 speed priority and there is no currently legal combination of skills to inflict more than -1 to your opponent since Weaponbreaker skills and Wary Fighter are incompatible).

Oh, cool. I was actually going to come here to make sure that this is actually how it works, because the way I was determining it up until yesterday was...not quite it.

idk about "better", but I just ended up going with "inhibitor" and "guarantor". I think I like the way you determine the end result better though.

For reference, this is what I had (well...the comment I have describing what happens, anyway). It's probably a bit verbose, but I was half trying to work it out in my own head at the time =P .

Spoiler

				
			  // The inhibitor variable keeps track of follow up "inhibitors" (that prevent follow ups in certain cases)
		  // and "guarantors"  (that guarantee follow ups in certain cases). The variable is incremented with each
		  // inhibitor, and decremented with each guarantor. At the end of the function, if the inhibitor is positive,
		  // then follow up does not occur (i.e. is successfully inhibited). If the inhibitor is negative,
		  // then follow up does occur (i.e. is successfully guaranteed). If the inhibitor is 0, then any inhibitors and
		  // guarantors have canceled out, and follow up will occur based on the normal Spd calculations.				
			

 

[Ice Dragon]

31 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

Oh, cool. I was actually going to come here to make sure that this is actually how it works, because the way I was determining it up until yesterday was...not quite it.

idk about "better", but I just ended up going with "inhibitor" and "guarantor". I think I like the way you determine the end result better though.

For reference, this is what I had (well...the comment I have describing what happens, anyway). It's probably a bit verbose, but I was half trying to work it out in my own head at the time =P .

  Reveal hidden contents

 

				
			  // The inhibitor variable keeps track of follow up "inhibitors" (that prevent follow ups in certain cases)
		  // and "guarantors"  (that guarantee follow ups in certain cases). The variable is incremented with each
		  // inhibitor, and decremented with each guarantor. At the end of the function, if the inhibitor is positive,
		  // then follow up does not occur (i.e. is successfully inhibited). If the inhibitor is negative,
		  // then follow up does occur (i.e. is successfully guaranteed). If the inhibitor is 0, then any inhibitors and
		  // guarantors have canceled out, and follow up will occur based on the normal Spd calculations.				
			

 

 

Prodding from a certain bear made me realize that Spd calculations were simply just another type of speed priority. Since one unit double attacking is not exclusive of the other unit double attacking, it's easiest to look at each unit individually like this:

• If your Spd is 5 or more points greater than your opponent's: +1.
• If you have a Weaponbreaker and it is active: +1.
• If you have Assassin's Bow and its effect is active: +1.
• If your opponent has a Weaponbreaker and it is active: -1.
• If your opponent has Assassin's Bow and its effect is active: -1.
• If you have Quick Riposte and it is active: +1.
• If you have Armads and its effect is active: +1.
• If you have Brash Assault and it is active: +1.
• If you have Windsweep and you initiated combat: -1.
• If you have Watersweep and you initiated combat: -1.
• If you have Wary Fighter and it is active: -1.
• If your opponent has Wary Fighter and it is active: -1.

If you have +1 or higher at the end of this, you double attack. If you have zero or lower, you don't.

I'm of course assuming that Assassin's Bow and Armads stack with their corresponding skill.

Does anyone have a slow Hector (e.g. low level) lying around that can test Armads + Quick Riposte against a faster armor with Wary Fighter (9-2 Lunatic's armors have 17 Spd, so Hector needs 21 Spd or lower) and see if Hector still double attacks? I have run out of Subakis (and no blue in the current main banner means I won't be pulling blue for a while).

Edited May 6, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[LordFrigid]

45 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Prodding from a certain bear made me realize that Spd calculations were simply just another type of speed priority. Since one unit double attacking is not exclusive of the other unit double attacking, it's easiest to look at each unit individually like this:

• If your Spd is 5 or more points greater than your opponent's: +1.
• If you have a Weaponbreaker and it is active: +1.
• If you have Assassin's Bow and its effect is active: +1.
• If your opponent has a Weaponbreaker and it is active: -1.
• If your opponent has Assassin's Bow and its effect is active: -1.
• If you have Quick Riposte and it is active: +1.
• If you have Armads and its effect is active: +1.
• If you have Brash Assault and it is active: +1.
• If you have Windsweep and you initiated combat: -1.
• If you have Watersweep and you initiated combat: -1.
• If you have Wary Fighter and it is active: -1.
• If your opponent has Wary Fighter and it is active: -1.

If you have +1 or higher at the end of this, you double attack. If you have zero or lower, you don't.

I'm of course assuming that Assassin's Bow and Armads stack with their corresponding skill.

Does anyone have a slow Hector (e.g. low level) lying around that can test Armads + Quick Riposte against a faster armor with Wary Fighter (9-2 Lunatic's armors have 17 Spd, so Hector needs 21 Spd or lower) and see if Hector still double attacks? I have run out of Subakis (and no blue in the current main banner means I won't be pulling blue for a while).

Oh, I guess that was a little confusing from my end, I actually run the check for each unit. The list does remind me though, I think I actually treat skill/weapon effects (bar Falchion/Renewal) as the same right now...whoops.

I can test the Hector thing (+Atk/-Spd), but he's sitting at Lv. 1 atm, so it might be a day or so.

Edit: Screw it, I'll just power level him now.

Edit 2: @Ice Dragon He did not double. Brief clip below, if I did anything wrong, lmk.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by LordFrigid

[Ice Dragon]

On 5/5/2017 at 8:24 PM, LordFrigid said:

Edit 2: @Ice Dragon He did not double. Brief clip below, if I did anything wrong, lmk.

Well hot damn. I'm going to assume, then, that that means Assassin's Bow and Daggerbreaker combined won't be able to overcome Bowbreaker. Thanks for running the test.

 

On my end, I've just done some testing of the new defensive tiles. As expected, the damage reduction from the fortification tiles does not affect the damage output of Bonfire or New Moon:

Gwendolyn with Bonfire, 44 Atk, and 39 Def on fortification against Sword Knight with 9 Def not on fortification. Gwendolyn deals 43 (44 + 8 - 9) damage normally and 62 damage (44 + 8 - 9 + 19) with Bonfire.

Nowi with New Moon and 53 Atk on fortification against Lance Knight with 17 Res on fortification. Nowi deals 31 (53 - (17 + 5)) damage normally and 36 damage (53 - (17 + 5) + 5) with New Moon.

By extension, Ignis, Iceberg, Glacies, Moonbow, Luna, and Aether are also unaffected by defensive tiles. Night Sky, Glimmer, and Astra are (obviously) affected.

[LordFrigid]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Well hot damn. I'm going to assume, then, that that means Assassin's Bow and Daggerbreaker combined won't be able to overcome Bowbreaker. Thanks for running the test.

Glad to help. I now wish I had tested Daggerbreaker Setsuna when Navarre's map was re-released...I was thinking about it, but ended up not doing it.

Good to know on the interaction between defensive terrain and specials.

[Absolute Zero]

Edit: stupid question, I can't read.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Absolute Zero