Ice Dragon's stats research: Stats, calculations, and whatnot

[Ice Dragon]

So the wiki (here: http://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Stat_Growth) now basically has everything that matters about stat growth and whatnot (with the exception of actual growth patterns), but I noticed that it didn't seem to have anything about promotion bonuses. I picked a small sample (basically all of the Hero Battle free units) and have this, after validating it against a bunch of other characters:

• Promotion bonuses from 1→2-stars and 3→4-stars are the character's second and third highest neutral level-1 stats at 1-star, 3-star, or 5-star rarity.
• Promotion bonuses from 2→3-stars and 4→5-stars are the character's first (HP), fourth, and fifth highest neutral level-1 stats at 1-star, 3-star, or 5-star rarity.
• Ties are broken in the same way as merge levels with the top-most stat in the status screen having higher priority (HP has highest priority, Res has lowest priority).
• Promotion bonuses are unaffected by nature (but we knew this already).
• A (n+2)-star character has exactly +1 to all stats as the same character at n-star rarity with the same nature (and we knew this already, too).

 

And with that, all that's left to do is figure out growth patterns, which still make absolutely no sense to me (though I do have something I want to try out once I'm done leveling up my Grand Hero Battle characters...).

[Ice Dragon]

Okay, double post because I'm feeling on top of the world right now, and this is big news, and screw it if someone else has figured this one out before me. I still haven't figured out growth patterns, but I've finally figured out growth rates.

I'd like to thank the table in the stat growths page in the wiki for letting me realize this because every 3-star growth value is a consecutive odd number (and that looks suspiciously like multiples of 5% multiplied by 39 and rounded down).

3-star growth rates in this game are multiples of 5%, just like in almost every other Fire Emblem game.

The level-40 stat of any 3-star character is

[final stat] = [base stat] + floor(39 × [growth rate])

with [base stat] being the level-1 value of the stat and [growth rate] being the growth rate.

 

From here, the growth rates of characters at different rarities are equal to the 3-star growth rate with a multiplicative adjustment:

1-star: -14%
2-star: -7%
4-star: +7%
5-star: +14%

and the growth rate is then rounded down before being included in the formula, like so:

[final stat] = [base stat] + floor(39 × floor([growth rate] × (1 + [rarity modifier])))

 

For example, for a character with a 45% base growth rate, at 5-star rarity they'd have

floor(39 × floor(45% × 1.14)) = floor(39 × floor(51.3%)) = floor (39 × 51%) = floor(19.89) = 19 growth.

The next interval up is 50% base growth rate, which at 5-star rarity, they'd have

floor(39 × floor(50% × 1.14)) = floor(39 × floor(57%)) = floor (39 × 57%) = floor(22.23) = 22 growth.

The 3-stat gaps are therefore, as expected, due to rounding error, and the odd spacing of the 3-stat gaps is due to the fact that rounding was happening twice.

 

Extrapolating from this, this means that all characters have total (3-star) growths of 255% with the (additive) modifiers chart in the wiki looking like this:

Dancer: +0%
Trainee: +30%
Ranged: -15%
Cavalry: -5%
Armored: +10%
Veteran: -30%

 

And I'll go work on growth patterns later. Maybe tomorrow since we have Memorial Day here in the States.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Ae†her]

Hone skills of the same effect such as increasing attack don't stack right? I ask this because I gave my Ephraim Hone Atk 3, which boosts adjacent allies Atks by +4, and his weapon Siegmund boosts adjacent allies Atk +3 as well, but I only notice that my units only gain the Atk +4 effect.

[Ice Dragon]

27 minutes ago, Altina said:

Hone skills of the same effect such as increasing attack don't stack right? I ask this because I gave my Ephraim Hone Atk 3, which boosts adjacent allies Atks by +4, and his weapon Siegmund boosts adjacent allies Atk +3 as well, but I only notice that my units only gain the Atk +4 effect.

Correct. Out-of-battle buffs only take the strongest buff and strongest debuff for each stat. Any weaker buffs or debuffs are overwritten or ignored.

[Ae†her]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Correct. Out-of-battle buffs only take the strongest buff and strongest debuff for each stat. Any weaker buffs or debuffs are overwritten or ignored.

Ugh can't believe I wasted valuable units on my Ephraim.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Altina

[Quintessence]

Hey Ice, your thoughts about blade tomes left me wondering, indeed, if any stat changes would become added dmg, but found out only buffs apply, not penalties.

Nino with 41atk +3 Spd (hone spd 2) -6 spd (slow) deals 14dmg to a 22 res sword peg. Without buffs she'd deal 11x2 dmg.

So panic ploy and legion's axe will cripple horse and flier emblem.

[Ice Dragon]

11 hours ago, Quintessence said:

Hey Ice, your thoughts about blade tomes left me wondering, indeed, if any stat changes would become added dmg, but found out only buffs apply, not penalties.

Nino with 41atk +3 Spd (hone spd 2) -6 spd (slow) deals 14dmg to a 22 res sword peg. Without buffs she'd deal 11x2 dmg.

So panic ploy and legion's axe will cripple horse and flier emblem.

Only positive buffs apply to Litrblade's effect. Negative buffs (buffs under the effect of Panic) and debuffs don't apply (they don't add or subtract damage), and if both a buff and a debuff are active, Litrblade takes into account the full value of the buff.

There's a reason buffs and debuffs are listed separately on the stat screen and header ribbon.

[XRay]

Spoiler

I am leveling Cecilia today due to the SP bonus, and I noticed that Fortify Cavalry did not boost her Defense from 0 to 6. I thought it was weird at first until I realized I gave her L&D3.

I think that buffs take into account of your "real" stats. So if your stat goes below 0 due to L&D or another skill, the game in general will treat the negative stat as 0, while the buffs remember what your "real" stats are and boost it from there.

Is there another explanation for this? I think this was the First Stratum so enemies do not have panic ploy or anything else like that to mess with the stats.

I am not sure where else to put this information, but this seems like the best place. I think many experienced players know this already, but since I cannot find any information on Serenes Forest or Google, I thought I should put this information up just for reference.

[Ice Dragon]

51 minutes ago, XRay said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I am leveling Cecilia today due to the SP bonus, and I noticed that Fortify Cavalry did not boost her Defense from 0 to 6. I thought it was weird at first until I realized I gave her L&D3.

I think that buffs take into account of your "real" stats. So if your stat goes below 0 due to L&D or another skill, the game in general will treat the negative stat as 0, while the buffs remember what your "real" stats are and boost it from there.

Is there another explanation for this? I think this was the First Stratum so enemies do not have panic ploy or anything else like that to mess with the stats.

I am not sure where else to put this information, but this seems like the best place. I think many experienced players know this already, but since I cannot find any information on Serenes Forest or Google, I thought I should put this information up just for reference.

Final stats cannot go below zero, but everywhere in the calculation before the stats are displayed on the screen can still go below zero. You can do the same with a Brave weapon and Hone Spd.

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Final stats cannot go below zero, but everywhere in the calculation before the stats are displayed on the screen can still go below zero. You can do the same with a Brave weapon and Hone Spd.

Alright cool.

[Ice Dragon]

I noticed it a few months back when I fought a Fir with a Wo Dao+ in the arena, but never ended up testing it to make sure.

Wo Dao's effect (and by extension, Dark Excalibur's) occurs after all other calculations, including setting the damage to zero if it is negative.

Testing in Paralogue 7-2 Hard. Nowi with 34+6 Def with Triangle Adept 3 against Athena with 30 Atk, Wo Dao, Moonbow, and Sturdy Blow 1 should deal

Athena's Sturdy Blow increases Atk by 2: 30 + 2 = 32.
Nowi's Triangle Adept 3 decreases Atk by 40%: 32 − (32 × 0.4) = 32 − 12 = 20.
Moonbow deals damage equal to 30% of Nowi's Def: 20 + (40 × 0.3) = 20 + 12 = 32.
Wo Dao adds 10 damage due to special skill activation: 32 + 10 = 42.
Damage is reduced by Nowi's Def: 42 − 40 = 2.

But the attack dealt 10 damage instead, implying that the calculation is actually

Athena's Sturdy Blow increases Atk by 2: 30 + 2 = 32.
Nowi's Triangle Adept 3 decreases Atk by 40%: 32 − (32 × 0.4) = 32 − 12 = 20.
Moonbow deals damage equal to 30% of Nowi's Def: 20 + (40 × 0.3) = 20 + 12 = 32.
Damage is reduced by Nowi's Def: 32 − 40 = −8.
Damage is increased to zero if negative: −8 → 0.
Wo Dao adds 10 damage due to special skill activation: 0 + 10 = 10.

[DehNutCase]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I noticed it a few months back when I fought a Fir with a Wo Dao+ in the arena, but never ended up testing it to make sure.

Wo Dao's effect (and by extension, Dark Excalibur's) occurs after all other calculations, including setting the damage to zero if it is negative.

Testing in Paralogue 7-2 Hard. Nowi with 34+6 Def with Triangle Adept 3 against Athena with 30 Atk, Wo Dao, Moonbow, and Sturdy Blow 1 should deal

Athena's Sturdy Blow increases Atk by 2: 30 + 2 = 32.
Nowi's Triangle Adept 3 decreases Atk by 40%: 32 − (32 × 0.4) = 32 − 12 = 20.
Moonbow deals damage equal to 30% of Nowi's Def: 20 + (40 × 0.3) = 20 + 12 = 32.
Wo Dao adds 10 damage due to special skill activation: 32 + 10 = 42.
Damage is reduced by Nowi's Def: 42 − 40 = 2.

But the attack dealt 10 damage instead, implying that the calculation is actually

Athena's Sturdy Blow increases Atk by 2: 30 + 2 = 32.
Nowi's Triangle Adept 3 decreases Atk by 40%: 32 − (32 × 0.4) = 32 − 12 = 20.
Moonbow deals damage equal to 30% of Nowi's Def: 20 + (40 × 0.3) = 20 + 12 = 32.
Damage is reduced by Nowi's Def: 32 − 40 = −8.
Damage is increased to zero if negative: −8 → 0.
Wo Dao adds 10 damage due to special skill activation: 0 + 10 = 10.

Would you happen to know if Wo Dao+ damage heals from Sol Sol heals from Wo Dao+ damage? IRRC the calculator used to say that it didn't, but now it's saying that it does.

Edited July 17, 2017 by DehNutCase
wording

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Would you happen to know if Wo Dao+ damage heals from Sol? IRRC the calculator used to say that it didn't, but now it's saying that it does.

I can probably test this with one of my 4-star Athenas sometime later (maybe during lunch break) and either toss on Sol from Raven or Daytime from Laslow, assuming no one gets around to doing it first.

[Ice Dragon]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:00 AM, Ice Dragon said:

I can probably test this with one of my 4-star Athenas sometime later (maybe during lunch break) and either toss on Sol from Raven or Daytime from Laslow, assuming no one gets around to doing it first.

@DehNutCase Test complete.

Athena with 28 Atk with Wo Dao against Axe Fighter with 14 Def and 29 HP.

Damage is 28 × 1.2 - 14 = (33) - 14 = 19. Damage when activating Daylight is 29 due to Wo Dao's additional effect. Healing should be 19 × 0.3 = 5 if Wo Dao's additional damage is counted for Daylight or 29 × 0.3 = 8 if not.

Damage dealt is 29. HP healed is 8. Conclusion: Damage due to Wo Dao's additional effect is taken into account for healing from Daylight, Noontime, Sol, and Aether.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Ice Dragon
Added Axe Fighter's HP because it is relevant.

[DehNutCase]

43 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

@DehNutCase Test complete.

Athena with 28 Atk with Wo Dao against Axe Fighter with 14 Def and 29 HP.

Damage is 28 × 1.2 - 14 = (33) - 14 = 19. Damage when activating Daylight is 29 due to Wo Dao's additional effect. Healing should be 19 × 0.3 = 5 if Wo Dao's additional damage is counted for Daylight or 29 × 0.3 = 8 if not.

Damage dealt is 29. HP healed is 8. Conclusion: Damage due to Wo Dao's additional effect is taken into account for healing from Daylight, Noontime, Sol, and Aether.

Thanks.

Wish I knew about this before Killer++ came out---Noontime isn't going to outheal Sol unless you only hit for like 14 damage---but if there's ever a new, 2 cd special that healed for 20% or something Wo Dao+ & that skill would be pretty interesting. Pity the closest 'Sheena' spread we have in red is Tobin, Selena, and... Zephiel, who all have just a bit too little res to be worthwhile.

 

Wonder what made me think Wo Dao damage wasn't added to Sol before. (I'm pretty sure I got the info from a simulator, but maybe I just misread it?)

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Damage is 28 × 1.2 - 14 = (33) - 14 = 19. Damage when activating Daylight is 29 due to Wo Dao's additional effect. Healing should be 19 × 0.3 = 5 if Wo Dao's additional damage is counted for Daylight or 29 × 0.3 = 8 if not.

Oh dear, I must have been nodding off big time to have written this.

[BestFriendJ0]

Ice Dragon, are you up for another project if I have something for you?

[Ice Dragon]

53 minutes ago, BestFriendJ0 said:

Ice Dragon, are you up for another project if I have something for you?

I'm not sure it's necessary to ask permission to ask something of me.

If I have the time and resources, I can take it up, and if not, then it'll wait.

[BestFriendJ0]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not sure it's necessary to ask permission to ask something of me.

If I have the time and resources, I can take it up, and if not, then it'll wait.

I'm going to be trying to figure out how Hero Merit works I'm still trying to gather data for it, but what I've seen so far is:

Your Hero's level matters

The Enemies' levels matter (I'm thinking either cumulative, or average * number of enemies)

* rating does not seem to make a difference

There is a bonus for when the enemies' levels are around your hero's level (but not when they are excessively higher in level)  

Also the tenth stratum seems to behave differently than the others

 

I'm still gathering numbers to try and find a pattern, but I figure I might need some help when it comes to figuring out the formula for HM generation especially with the wonky rounding FEH sometimes has.

[Hilda]

I want to note Infantery Pulse stacks on itself and works on Offensiv Cooldowns and also on Defensiv Cooldowns, in short words you can get 1 Infantery Units Cooldown down by 3 with the other 3 units, Likewise the other units will benefit from it too.

In other words get your High HP Ninians out because she will reduce the cooldown on Infantery units by 1 with this, and considering its a C Slot ability she keeps her warping option. Which makes her in my Eyes imho the best Dancer with this skill. Now with the Pulse Seal 5 Special Cooldowns dont seem that farfetched on some Units.

[WendyDTurner]

Nice!!

[Hilda]

I am kinda confused. So i started a new Ally Support Bond between Hector and Black Knight. I thought great i just go into Camillas Warrior map this should be easy to bump up. Thats 25 Enemys per map (well 24 the last Enemy is killed by Effie). If i remember my Ally bonding with my Main Team it never took so many Enemys to go to S Support like this.

I allways used the Lunatic Map and just placed Black Knight in the upper path to block and Hector in the East path. Black Knight can sustain himself very well with Steady Breath Wrath 3 and Aether and Hector takes no damage from the East past and destroys all Enemys. They are within 2 Spaces and I got Ranks up to A for both, doing this.
I have spent now 4 Energy Potions, each granting 6 battles on that map. so 24 battles on the map x 24 enemys... 576 Enemys and they still are on A Rank and not S rank. I dont remember it takeing so many Enemys to kill with my Main Team to get S rank support between Allys.

So it seems like there is some form of Ally support kill gain limit induced per map, much like Healers cant get any more SP for Healing after 6-7 uses. Anyone else might wanna share their experience?

[Hilda]

Aftermath: There is definitly a cap placed on how much points you get per map to up your ally support. Amelia and Effy just got to A rank and Effy only kills 1-2 units per map at most and they were running with Black Knight and Hector consantly just for Armor Emblem buffs. Most likely the cap is at 4 Units per map per support pairing.

[LuxSpes]

On 10/2/2017 at 7:22 PM, Hilda said:

I am kinda confused. So i started a new Ally Support Bond between Hector and Black Knight. I thought great i just go into Camillas Warrior map this should be easy to bump up. Thats 25 Enemys per map (well 24 the last Enemy is killed by Effie). If i remember my Ally bonding with my Main Team it never took so many Enemys to go to S Support like this.

I allways used the Lunatic Map and just placed Black Knight in the upper path to block and Hector in the East path. Black Knight can sustain himself very well with Steady Breath Wrath 3 and Aether and Hector takes no damage from the East past and destroys all Enemys. They are within 2 Spaces and I got Ranks up to A for both, doing this.
I have spent now 4 Energy Potions, each granting 6 battles on that map. so 24 battles on the map x 24 enemys... 576 Enemys and they still are on A Rank and not S rank. I dont remember it takeing so many Enemys to kill with my Main Team to get S rank support between Allys.

So it seems like there is some form of Ally support kill gain limit induced per map, much like Healers cant get any more SP for Healing after 6-7 uses. Anyone else might wanna share their experience?

I used Camilla's Warrior's map to grind Summoner support for Nino and despite being A support, it took me ages to get it, much longer than when I ran the first 9 maps of the chapter 1-2 Chain Challenge to give Sanaki the Summoner support. I

t was only later that I read a post that stated that what is needed to increase support rank isn't a certain number of defeated enemy, but rather a certain number of cleared maps. No idea if it's indeed the case, but it would explain why it took so long with Nino when compared to Sanaki.

[Prince Endriu]

I upgraded my Nino to +4 yesterday. Got the same arena scores as with my reinhardt+1 who has a weaker bst of 20. 171 compared to 151.

What am I doing wrong?