The Tactician?

[Alpha Wolves]

So... I'm curious what you guys like and what you guys don't like. If you could choose a tactician type to play through the game, which one would you choose? FE7 had Mark, who was referenced by the characters and even spoken to during in-between cutscenes, but had no battlefield presence and had almost no story line presence within the game. Kris was the next step up, having some presense in the battlefield, but not the driving force of the game. (i.e.: Not "I AM THE SON/DAUGHTER OF AN EVIL ENTITY THAT WANTS TO BLA BLA BLA!!!"). On the battlefield and with their own supports. Robin was the next step up above that, and while not the purely main character of the game - he was petty much center stage duet shared with Chrome the entier time. Then we have Corrin, who where Robin was a Duet, Corrin took center stage all to himself to be THE main character in the game.

So what do you guys think? Would you prefer to be Mark? Kris? Robin? Or perhaps you even liked being Corrins?

What type of tactician do you hope to be in FE Switch?

[Butterstroke]

I wouldn't mind another tactician like Robin. *cough*I have no idea why...*cough* I think not being the sole main character for a game allowed more character development with Robin and made the character better overall with the dialogue. Corrin's role in Fates didn't give him/her the chance to develop more and I feel if he/her was in the same position of Robin, more people would like Corrin. 

[saisymbolic]

I'm not really a fan of Kris, but I do prefer their role in the game. A minor character that is close enough to the main character in order for the audience to be aware of the game's plot through their eyes but not so important that the story crumbles without their existence. Kris could have worked well had they not been inserted into an already established story, and they were given a small character arc with a couple of flaws here and there. 

[MediocreLee]

I'm in the camp of having an Avatar/MU similar to Kris.  I tend to feel that Avatars like Robin and Corrin overshadow a lot of the other characters that are supposed to be important.  However, I do like the way Robin was implemented as well since it brought more immersion and importance to you as the player to care about that character more.  However, Kris, I feel, was implemented wrong since there already was a pre-existing story and if given the chance to be put in a fresh new story, they would have been better.  Plus the side story/arc for Kris was nice too.

[Topaz Light]

I feel like Kris' level of importance is pretty ideal, personally... Well, my personal ideal in terms of plot significance would pretty much be "Mark but also a unit you can use in combat", but I think that sort of character works better in Fire Emblem when they're sort of a side character to a more solidly-defined—and more importantly, not weighed down with the "responsibility" of being a pseudo-player insert—main character.

While it would be nice to see an MU who we actually got to at least somewhat decide the personality of—so they're not just basically a predefined character who we get to change some cosmetic and gameplay attributes of—I think going back to something like Kris or Mark or even just Robin would be more realistic.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Topaz Light

[Alpha Wolves]

Hm... its curious to see how many people like Kris over someone like Robin, its strange how nintendo stepped away from side line characters to center stage characters for fire emblem, despite most peoples seeming preference towards ones like Mark or Kris. (Off Topic: Think they will ever add Kris to heroes? lmao). 

Still... 11 to 5 for a character like Mark/Kris vs newer characters like Robin/Corrin, with Corrin having 0 support and Kris having 8?

Do you think Nintendo will learn from mistakes of their past characters? Or do you guys think this is going to be just another center staged tactician with to much highlight on himself?

[Slumber]

If you're going to have a usable unit, have it be like Kris. A sidekick to the main lords.

Otherwise, Mark.

Having a main character as the Avatar/Tactician absolutely ruined the stories of those games.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Slumber

[AlexArtsHere]

I want something in between Kris and Robin, but leaning more towards the latter. I would like to see the Avatar's importance a tad below Robin's, with other characters chiming in when relevant (á la Say'ri and Shura) rather than the Avatar all the time, but Chrom and Robin had much more of a relationship than Marth and Kris (see: Awakening Chapter 11 closing cutscene, with Robin's promise to Chrom), likely as a result of Awakening being wholly original. Furthermore, I like how Robin has a personal arc and struggle without overshadowing the entirety of the narrative. Maybe not so grand next time, but I want a fair amount of story arc dedicated to the Avatar.

[mikethepokemaster]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

If you're going to have a usable unit, have it be like Kris. A sidekick to the main lords.

Otherwise, Mark.

Having a main character as the Avatar/Tactician absolutely ruined the stories of those games.

How did Robin ruined the story his overall amnisa and background fit the final chapters. He really never took Chome spotlight you can say in taking down grima is optional Chome can slay grima and put him to sleep or Robin can off himself with Grima.

[Slumber]

1 minute ago, mikethepokemaster said:

How did Robin ruined the story his overall amnisa and background fit the final chapters. He really never took Chome spotlight you can say in taking down grima is optional Chome can slay grima and put him to sleep or Robin can off himself with Grima.

Literally everything that happens in the game is because of Robin/Validar(Who more or less does everything because of Robin), and the second half of the game, where Robin ACTIVELY becomes the main focus of the story rather than passively, more or less ruins all of the drama from the first half.

If Awakening focused solely on Chrom and Ylisse vs. Plegia, it probably would have been a fine story. Not exceptional, but serviceable. Maybe get rid of the total Robin focus in the last 2/5 of the game and expand on Valm or something. But that isn't how it happened, and once the story becomes "The Robin Show!", the quality nosedives, and takes the other parts of the game with it.

[AlexArtsHere]

That's very subjective really. I saw nothing wrong with that final arc, and when I say that Robin's role should be toned down, it's more out of compromise and trying to please more than just myself. I feel like it's a satisfying conclusion to Robin's story and plays further into the bonds theme of Awakening.

I think the real issue is not with the plot itself, but rather what Robin is. If this role were given to an established character in the story rather than an Avatar, I'm sure it'd draw much less ire, but it carries the stigma of being the dreaded player character who is more often than not described as an ego trip for the player. It's the context of the Avatar that seems to make Robin's story controversial as opposed to the story itself.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, InfinityAlex said:

That's very subjective really. I saw nothing wrong with that final arc, and when I say that Robin's role should be toned down, it's more out of compromise and trying to please more than just myself. I feel like it's a satisfying conclusion to Robin's story and plays further into the bonds theme of Awakening.

I think the real issue is not with the plot itself, but rather what Robin is. If this role were given to an established character in the story rather than an Avatar, I'm sure it'd draw much less ire, but it carries the stigma of being the dreaded player character who is more often than not described as an ego trip for the player. It's the context of the Avatar that seems to make Robin's story controversial as opposed to the story itself.

No, I don't think the role would have drawn less ire than if somebody else had taken Robin. Robin was the center of everything and ends up being saved by the power of friendship, which is the lamest goddamn thing that has ever happened in the series.

But they're not going to give a role like Robin to anybody BUT a player character. We never saw a character who was the motivating factor in EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PLOT POINT IN THE GAME prior to Robin. Then we got Corrin, who had the exact same role.

Plus, even without the plain old awful story focus that Robin got, Robin's inclusion actively makes the game less interesting. Nobody can recruit characters besides Robin, Robin can literally do everything and be every class(Aside from transformation classes, Lord and Dark Flier for males), and there are no faults in the character in their support conversations. That last bit just makes Robin a boring, flat character, but for the other things, Robin negatively impacts both the story and the gameplay.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Slumber

[mikethepokemaster]

9 minutes ago, Slumber said:

No, I don't think the role would have drawn less ire than if somebody else had taken Robin. Robin was the center of everything and ends up being saved by the power of friendship, which is the lamest goddamn thing that has ever happened in the series.

But they're not going to give a role like Robin to anybody BUT a player character. We never saw a character who was the motivating factor in EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PLOT POINT IN THE GAME prior to Robin. Then we got Corrin, who had the exact same role.

Plus, even without the plain old awful story focus that Robin got, Robin's inclusion actively makes the game less interesting. Nobody can recruit characters besides Robin, Robin can literally do everything and be every class(Aside from transformation classes, Lord and Dark Flier for males), and there are no faults in the character in their support conversations. That last bit just makes Robin a boring, flat character, but for the other things, Robin negatively impacts both the story and the gameplay.

Gosh you really hate Robin don't you. I mean damn you have a burning passion of hatred for him/her.

[AlexArtsHere]

Robin doesn't recruit a single unit throughout the entirety of Awakening. That's all Chrom. And I've said nothing of Robin's ability to reclass to anything, because that is objectively unbalanced and, in my eyes, boring. I'm simply talking about Robin's role in the story, not her supports or personality, which I do think is boring for being "flawless".

Personally, I find Robin to be fine as a character, those issues of classes and personality aside, but I know she's not everyone's cup of tea, though IS has shown us they can certainly do worse in the writing department.

Also, Marth goes on a bunch about how he owes his victory to his friends all the time anyway. Robin's endgame motivational experience is really just a condensed and anvilicious version of Marty's attitude.

1 minute ago, mikethepokemaster said:

Gosh you really hate Robin don't you. I mean damn you have a burning passion of hatred for him/her.

You're really not helping the case for Robin when your response to a person's opinion essentially amounts to "Well you don't like him so therefore your opinion is invalid", which really isn't constructive in such an argument. Not that I feel it should  be an expectation to do so anyway, but that kind of stuff doesn't convince people that your own opinion is valid.

[mikethepokemaster]

10 minutes ago, InfinityAlex said:

Robin doesn't recruit a single unit throughout the entirety of Awakening. That's all Chrom. And I've said nothing of Robin's ability to reclass to anything, because that is objectively unbalanced and, in my eyes, boring. I'm simply talking about Robin's role in the story, not her supports or personality, which I do think is boring for being "flawless".

Personally, I find Robin to be fine as a character, those issues of classes and personality aside, but I know she's not everyone's cup of tea, though IS has shown us they can certainly do worse in the writing department.

Also, Marth goes on a bunch about how he owes his victory to his friends all the time anyway. Robin's endgame motivational experience is really just a condensed and anvilicious version of Marty's attitude.

You're really not helping the case for Robin when your response to a person's opinion essentially amounts to "Well you don't like him so therefore your opinion is invalid", which really isn't constructive in such an argument. Not that I feel it should  be an expectation to do so anyway, but that kind of stuff doesn't convince people that your own opinion is valid.

When did I say his point was invalid. I said he/she really hate Robin with a passion that it. The whole Robin is the main focus of the story is not true Grima doesn't take center stage until like chapter 24 the other 23 chapters are pretty Chrome story he the one who is center stage for the First 11 chapters he the one who needs a wife before chapter 12 or is it 11, forgot. By the Valm arc, my personal favorite out of Awakening it him Lucina and to an extend Robin arc. The final 4 chapters are based around Robin and his connection to Grima and Valadar. Plus he the duoprotangist next to chrome.

[AlexArtsHere]

13 minutes ago, mikethepokemaster said:

When did I say his point was invalid. I said he/she really hate Robin with a passion that it. The whole Robin is the main focus of the story is not true Grima doesn't take center stage until like chapter 24 the other 23 chapters are pretty Chrome story he the one who is center stage for the First 11 chapters he the one who needs a wife before chapter 12 or is it 11, forgot. By the Valm arc, my personal favorite out of Awakening it him Lucina and to an extend Robin arc. The final 4 chapters are based around Robin and his connection to Grima and Valadar. Plus he the duoprotangist next to chrome.

You didn't outright say it, but it's the general sentiment you seem to be communicating. As for Robin, @Slumber is 100% correct when he says that Robin is the driving force of the game's main plot. Here, take this simplified version of events:

• Pre-Awakening (time unknown, between 16 and 20 years prior to the game): A cult known as the Grimleal, wishing to resurrect the Fell Dragon, starts a breeding program of Defile blood in order to procure an appropriate vessel for their god to inhabit. The fruits of their labours culminate in Robin, the child of Validar and an unknown (presumably Plegian and of Defile blood) woman. Soon after Robin's birth, her mother takes her and flees Plegia in the dead of night to unknown territories.
• Pre-Awakening (Approx. 25 years prior to the beginning of the game): War breaks out between Ylisse and Plegia, with Emmeryn's father, the Exalt of the time, embarking upon a crusade to butcher the Plegian populace, whose worship of Grima (as a state religion) cause him to label them as heathens. 15 years prior to the beginning of Awakening, the Exalt dies, and Emmeryn ascends to the throne.
• Robin is found unconscious in a field somewhere in the south of Ylisse, missing her memory. It is later revealed this is due to Future Robin's (possessed by Grima) attempt to merge with her present self. Through the rest of the game, we have the introduction of Lucina under the guise of Marth, a adolescent who has traveled back in time in order to prevent the coming of Grima (A.K.A Robin), the rise of Walhart, who wishes to prevent Grima's coming by military force, leading to the subjugation of Valm, and Validar's attempts to control Robin and have her steal the Fire Emblem in order for use in resurrecting Grima via performing the Awakening at the Dragon's Table and wreck havoc upon the world, with Chrom performing the Awakening at Mount Prism in order to summon Naga and unlock Falchion's potential and fight Grima (A.K.A. Future Robin).

And that's a super basic summary. Regardless of whether you take issue with it, the fact is that, yes, Robin IS the motivating force of nearly every plot point in the main story from the subjugation of the continent of Valm under Walhart the Conqueror to the Future Children's trip to the past, save for the Pre-Awakening stuff (though they are still directly involved in the creation of Grima's vessel). Nobody's saying you have to hate this for being what it is (some people do, I don't and seemingly neither do you), but to clap your hands over your ears and ignore the facts is just nonsensical.

[mikethepokemaster]

5 minutes ago, InfinityAlex said:

You didn't outright say it, but it's the general sentiment you seem to be communicating. As for Robin, @Slumber is 100% correct when he says that Robin is the driving force of the game's main plot. Here, take this simplified version of events:

• Pre-Awakening (time unknown, between 16 and 20 years prior to the game): A cult known as the Grimleal, wishing to resurrect the Fell Dragon, starts a breeding program of Defile blood in order to procure an appropriate vessel for their god to inhabit. The fruits of their labours culminate in Robin, the child of Validar and an unknown (presumably Plegian and of Defile blood) woman. Soon after Robin's birth, her mother takes her and flees Plegia in the dead of night to unknown territories.
• Pre-Awakening (Approx. 25 years prior to the beginning of the game): War breaks out between Ylisse and Plegia, with Emmeryn's father, the Exalt of the time, embarking upon a crusade to butcher the Plegian populace, whose worship of Grima (as a state religion) cause him to label them as heathens. 15 years prior to the beginning of Awakening, the Exalt dies, and Emmeryn ascends to the throne.
• Robin is found unconscious in a field somewhere in the south of Ylisse, missing her memory. It is later revealed this is due to Future Robin's (possessed by Grima) attempt to merge with her present self. Through the rest of the game, we have the introduction of Lucina under the guise of Marth, a adolescent who has traveled back in time in order to prevent the coming of Grima (A.K.A Robin), the rise of Walhart, who wishes to prevent Grima's coming by military force, leading to the subjugation of Valm, and Validar's attempts to control Robin and have her steal the Fire Emblem in order for use in resurrecting Grima via performing the Awakening at the Dragon's Table and wreck havoc upon the world, with Chrom performing the Awakening at Mount Prism in order to summon Naga and unlock Falchion's potential and fight Grima (A.K.A. Future Robin).

And that's a super basic summary. Regardless of whether you take issue with it, the fact is that, yes, Robin IS the motivating force of nearly every plot point in the main story from the subjugation of the continent of Valm under Walhart the Conqueror to the Future Children's trip to the past, save for the Pre-Awakening stuff (though they are still directly involved in the creation of Grima's vessel). Nobody's saying you have to hate this for being what it is (some people do, I don't and seemingly neither do you), but to clap your hands over your ears and ignore the facts is just nonsensical.

Uh when did say lala not listening like I am 5 or something. Okay I consed than Robin is the driving force for the story but that about it. I personally don't care to much if the Avatar take up space Iike machanic and some dont. 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by mikethepokemaster

[AlexArtsHere]

I'm not sure if English is your first language, and I commend your efforts with it if it isn't, but it's just a metaphor. I'm likening what you've said to those actions.

[Slumber]

My bad about attributing to the recruitment thing to Robin. Listing off things I don't like about Robin, I ended up blaming him for things I don't like about Awakening in general.

That said, I stand by everything else. True, the things I listed off are technically subjective, but I don't think there's a single person who knows how to write rounded stories that would write like Awakening was written. Most of the things I listed off are things you're told to avoid in most writing courses, and the very beginning of the game, Robin is afflicted by one of the biggest sins of writing: They start the game with amnesia purely as a reason to obscure a bunch of plot points that become relevant much later. Yes, these are things that are problems in general with the writing of Awakening, but most of those writing sins seem to be a direct result of Robin essentially being a self-insert character.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Slumber

[DeadLuckChris]

I wouldn't mind another Kris or Robin.If they do take the Corrin route i hope they improve on it.

[AlexArtsHere]

@Slumber Yeah, I get where people come from with amnesia. It's a cliché by now, and I normally groan when it crops up, but I found it tolerable in Awakening, if stale. Of course, seeing Corrin have it too felt cheap and lazy to me, since he's obviously aping Robin's archetype, but that's for another day. While I can understand that Awakening has its flaws, I don't think it's because it does anything that is inherently bad, rather that it tries to employ stuff (like amnesia) which is generally unsuccessful to begin with. In terms of Robin's relevance to Awakening's flaws, it's a matter of perspective, really, with much more egregious examples of Robin's writing flaws existing both within and outside of the series (see: Corrin).

[Alpha Wolves]

Robin isn't bad, but the fact he was the driving force in the last chapter was somewhat bothering. All the same, he was part of a Duet with Robin and Chrom, and was not a solo act. He felt like he was a driving force, but he was just as much as a driving force that Chrome/Lucina and the other main characters were. 

Awakening isn't bad, Fates isn't bad. Tacticians or not, their stories were okay. I'm not saying that being a part of the main story is bad, just asking for a matter of preference. Lets not argue why XXX or YYY was a bad tactician, but what makes them good and why we like them. :P

[AlexArtsHere]

But what we dislike about characters is also a part of our preference! :P

I suppose Corrin's status as a Lord does allow for the conflict of the game's backstory, allowing for two royal families and the choice between them, even if this choice didn't end up having a bunch of emotional weight for me until near the endgame. I just don't think the same thing could've been achieved if the Avatar character wasn't front and centre.

[Anomalocaris]

I'd be fine with an avatar sorta midway between Kris and Robin. They'd still be the viewpoint character and be an important supporting role to the protagonist, but they wouldn't have much actual involvement in the main plot itself.

Kinda like Robin before Chapter 21 formally revealed their Grima connection. Just a skilled tactician who is also there for moral support.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Anomalocaris

[SavageVolug]

The avatar is a fun feature and concept but I don't want a game to include a avatar just for the sake of having an avatar.For me I'd like the avatar/tactician to be more like Kris, but in terms of custimization. I'd like options that are somewhere in between Kris and Robin, where for example we pick our starting class. Fighter, Mercenary, Draco Rider, ect. I'd also like to pick mutliple attributes. Where we are asked things like "How strong are you? Are you fast? ect. And the responses could be something like, Extraordinarily, Good, Average, Below Average and Poor. And each response will affect the growth rates in a specific stat, however there can only be one Extraordinary attribute, while good and average allow for a few more of that response. I would like multiple builds, like with Robin, and also to pick our personality and back ground like with Kris.  I would also love to be able to give the avatar facial hair. Please? Beards, mustaches, goatees, ect. perhaps some war paint or maybe a helmet or headband.