The new villains

[Etrurian emperor]

So far I'm counting at least two topics about ideas or expectation for the new main character but I think there is a much more important subject to tackle. 

What are the new villains going to be like?

I think this is a subject where IS really has something to prove because it has screwed up with its villains twice in a row now. The Awakening villains were all severely underused and the Fates villains are the bottom of the barrel. Its probably in their best interest to really nail the new villains.

So how should they go about that? What do you expect of the new villains, what should they be like and what shouldn't they be like?

 

[Thane]

I feel like the villains have long been Fire Emblem's weak point in terms of writing. Barring a few exceptions, the most notable one being Lyon, I rarely feel like the good parts of the story comes from the bad guys. 

I'm going to advocate for a villain who's got goals we can understand. They don't have to be overly morally gray or anything, but at this point I'll take almost any villain who isn't a bad guy because they either want the world to end, find humans to be irredeemable or they've got a hate boner for X. 

In addition to that, I'd love for a villain to have a genuine connection with the main character(s). Either they've got a shared past or they've got interesting interactions that develop their relationship throughout the plot. 

Those are pretty much my two main hopes for the villain in the next Fire Emblem game. There are a lot of other things I'd like to see, of course, but so long as these two criteria are fulfilled, I believe the villain's got potential.

[AlexArtsHere]

I want a fleshed out version of Gangrel. Not only did he have decent motivation, being a victim whose lust for retribution had consumed him and driven him to nihilism, I actually found him pretty likable. He had a twisted sense of humour, with plenty of black comedy one-liners, but his supports with Robin showed that his relationship to Grima is something of mutual indifference, caring more the people than the deity.

Alternatively, I want a more heroic version of Walhart. Someone who's trying to do the right thing and save the world from the big bad, but in the wrong way. I'd like them to be a genuinely nice and caring person, with their army being a darker reflection of the Lord's; A group where people do care for each other and are strengthened by their bonds. The main villain would even be cordial towards the heroes and wishing to avoid conflict at first, but their extreme and uncompromising ideals would force the two sides into conflict, as the villain slips further into insanity, bearing nothing but resent for the Lord by the endgame. If the goals of the two sides have some overlap, the villain's army could even appear as allies in a few chapters. I feel like this'd be much more effective at tugging at our heart strings than Fates, who only gave us a few chapters to get to know each family before having to make the choice. The antagonist may not even start out in direct conflict with our heroes, but eventually draws one side draws a line after become irrevocably disgusted with the other. For example, the antagonist may forever break relations with the Lord after cruelly killing an enemy in cold blood.

Edited February 12, 2017 by InfinityAlex

[De Geso]

11 minutes ago, InfinityAlex said:

I want a fleshed out version of Gangrel. Not only did he have decent motivation, being a victim whose lust for retribution had consumed him and driven him to nihilism, I actually found him pretty likable. He had a twisted sense of humour, with plenty of black comedy one-liners, but his supports with Robin showed that his relationship to Grima is something of mutual indifference, caring more the people than the deity.

Alternatively, I want a more heroic version of Walhart. Someone who's trying to do the right thing and save the world from the big bad, but in the wrong way. I'd like them to be a genuinely nice and caring person, with their army being a darker reflection of the Lord's; A group where people do care for each other and are strengthened by their bonds. The main villain would even be cordial towards the heroes and wishing to avoid conflict at first, but their extreme and uncompromising ideals would force the two sides into conflict, as the villain slips further into insanity, bearing nothing but resent for the Lord by the endgame. If the goals of the two sides have some overlap, the villain's army could even appear as allies in a few chapters. I feel like this'd be much more effective at tugging at our heart strings than Fates, who only gave us a few chapters to get to know each family before having to make the choice. The antagonist may not even start out in direct conflict with our heroes, but eventually draws one side draws a line after become irrevocably disgusted with the other. For example, the antagonist may forever break relations with the Lord after cruelly killing an enemy in cold blood.

I love this. Go get hired at Int Sys and make it happen. 

[Slumber]

As much as the series likes to play up politics and warfare against countries, it'd be nice to see a villain actually take advantage of this in a clever way. Villains almost always inevitably do this, but they do this through magic and stronghanding people rather than taking advantage of leaders through political influence or actual cunning. The closest we really got to this was the Lopto Sect in the Jugdral games, who had magic and power on their side, but they still used politics to enforce stuff like the Child Hunting in order to build up power. I still don't think this is really enough, and I'd like to see a villain(/villains) actually fleshed out as a proper strategist to work opposed to what the good guys are working towards.

Granted, this might be boring at a surface level, but if worked on thoroughly and thoughtfully enough, it could end up being a FF Tactics type deal, where politics play heavily on top of all the magic, and it works out very well. The overall plot of Tactics isn't that different than an FE title(Disgraced lord goes on a personal war against a religious cult using forbidden powers to attempt to rule the world yadda yadda yadda), but the thought and presentation that went into actually developing the story and establishing the villains through heavy medieval politics was on a level we've never seen out of an FE game. Not only do we get righteous, memorable assholes like Dycedarg, Folmarv, and Elmdor, who all have substantial roles(Elmdor not so much) and memorable, climactic ends, but you also get tragic characters like Wiegraf, who abuses the power of the Lucavi because his sister died rebelling against the Beoulves, and he basically sells his soul out of anger and grief, only to fully lose himself and he dies not even remembering why he did this.

And that's not even getting into Delita, who is possibly the most perplexing and most worthy of analysis character in FF history, who constantly plays as this moral gray ground in between the "Tiny rebel army fighting the massive literal political monsters".

So while I don't have a strong idea of what the villain should be exactly, I do think focusing on the politics of the world could potentially be a very good idea, rather than immediately going to magic mind manipulation or using a giant, powerful army to just steamroll the opposition until a tiny army shows up and somehow dismantles this unstoppable force.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Slumber

[Thane]

2 hours ago, InfinityAlex said:

Alternatively, I want a more heroic version of Walhart. Someone who's trying to do the right thing and save the world from the big bad, but in the wrong way. I'd like them to be a genuinely nice and caring person, with their army being a darker reflection of the Lord's; A group where people do care for each other and are strengthened by their bonds. The main villain would even be cordial towards the heroes and wishing to avoid conflict at first, but their extreme and uncompromising ideals would force the two sides into conflict, as the villain slips further into insanity, bearing nothing but resent for the Lord by the endgame. If the goals of the two sides have some overlap, the villain's army could even appear as allies in a few chapters. I feel like this'd be much more effective at tugging at our heart strings than Fates, who only gave us a few chapters to get to know each family before having to make the choice. The antagonist may not even start out in direct conflict with our heroes, but eventually draws one side draws a line after become irrevocably disgusted with the other. For example, the antagonist may forever break relations with the Lord after cruelly killing an enemy in cold blood.

I really like this idea a lot! Maybe the bad guy could even be your ally for a few chapters so you can see both the good and the bad before he leaves to do his own thing.

[AlexArtsHere]

Honestly, I've always wanted to do my own indie version of an FE game, so I may do the kind of plot I mentioned since it's got positive reception.

[OakTree]

No more Gharnef clones, please, the original Gharnef was great because of his cartoon-ishly evil personality, but trying to do this kind of character multiple times just doesn't work, mostly because there's just not a lot of new things that can be done with that kind of character, you can either try to flesh him out more, which has a chance of working, but it's simply very hard to pull off right , or you can play them completely straight, at which point the character just feels like the same character with a different name, so  yeah, please no more Gharnef clones.

Edited February 12, 2017 by OakTree

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Well I do agree that we've got some serious issues with villains in Fates, every game before I would say has strong antagonists. The worst we got from 7-13 probably being Ashnard and /Spoiler/ at the end of Radiant Dawn. Compared to protagonists, FE has a strong showing for villains.

But yeah, it would be nice to move away from some tropes. Awakening broke the mold in presenting the game with three "acts". This was a good choice as I don't think Gangrel or Walhart are complex enough to be a satisfying villain for an entire game's length. But if you present a game with multiple acts, then it starts to feel episodic. Like each villain is the "monster of the week" in a non-serial television series. Also, if there's going to be a betrayal, don't telegraph it. The Gunter situation in Revelation was pretty juvenile in terms of gameplay and narrative. A traitor should be this good unit introduced organically in the story and has a reasonable motive. Don't avoid giving him supports and decent stats, because then the player won't use or care about them. It would be like if Navi betrayed you in Ocarina of Time. How can you take that seriously?

Edited February 12, 2017 by Gustavos

[NekoKnight]

I'd like to see a villain who is loved by his people, or at least his faction. Not out of fanaticism but because he's someone who genuinely looks out after their interest. InfinityAlex's  suggestion is a good prompt. Hopefully the villain can be a foil to the protagonist, maybe two people of similar values that made distinct choices that lead them down the paths of villainy and heroism, respectively.

The villain should have understandable goals that aren't born out of misanthropy or baseless desire for destruction.

[Alpha Wolves]

He wants to kidnap the princess of the other kingdom and force her into marriage because her father is about to die to illness, and he wants to steal the legendary item that was stolen by the thief lord who didn't know the importance of the item. :D

Btw: He is a black mage sorcerer who is eventually sealed inside the very weapon he saught.

Bonus points if people guess this guys name.

[bethany81707]

3 hours ago, Alpha Wolves said:

He wants to kidnap the princess of the other kingdom and force her into marriage because her father is about to die to illness, and he wants to steal the legendary item that was stolen by the thief lord who didn't know the importance of the item. :D

Btw: He is a black mage sorcerer who is eventually sealed inside the very weapon he saught.

Bonus points if people guess this guys name.

Well, we did just get a henchman named Iago...

[Etrurian emperor]

I personally wouldn't have a problem with another villain who's just evil for evils sake.

Its all about the execution. Garon and Iago didn't fail because they were evil for the sake of being. Garon failed because evil for evil sake's was never supposed to be what Norh was about and it suddenly being so damages everyone involved. Iago failed because he was a pathetic loser who either got defeated every time or got his way by jumping behind daddy Garon when things threatened to go wrong for him.

But there are also other villains, better villains who make that sort of villainy work. Hades from Kid Icarus and Metal Face from Xenoblade are both proudly and gleefully evil without a shred of depth to that behavior yet it seems common consensus that they steal the show whenever they show up. They use their sheer evil as a strength by being consistently amusing in their awful behavior, by them employing it in a way that gives the heroes a reason to hate them very much and by the plot clearly showing they can afford that sort of behavior.

A villain who is more understandable and sympathetic can be great but they have one key weakness that make them dangerous to write. If the player doesn't buy those noble intentions, those deeper meanings then the entire villain falls flat.

Xander isn't a villain per se but he was clearly supposed to be sympathetic and honorable, perhaps even tragic with his daddy complex.  The big hatedom he has acquired shows that this  backfired on him because so many people don't buy that there is sympathy or believable depth in Xander's actions. As a result people find him more deplorable rather than less. 

I personally always had this problem with Zephiel. His backstory is supposed to explain his actions but because I don't buy it he comes across as a gigantic drama lama. Nergal is not bound by me accepting his backstory and thus I like him a lot more.

And the black knight! The moment they started introducing that ''last true knight'' crap was the moment he started to fall as a villain, perhaps even as a character. 

The Tales series almost always employs sympathetic or tragic villains. In Symphonia the villain isn't entirely sympathetic in his actions but he's certainly tragic and that gives him some sympathy points. But I don't buy the reasoning that is supposed to explain the actions of the villains from Abyss or Vesperia. I don't find the plan of Abyss's villain to be a rational course of action to solve a great evil nor do I think there was any point in the final boss fight of Vesperia, and thus I think they are failures as a villain.

Its a double edged sword. You can either nail it and have a great villain or fail at it which delivers a sub par villain. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Etrurian emperor

[Alpha Wolves]

Now, I wouldn't say Jaffar was evil for the sake of being evil. I'd put him into evil for the sake of power. Perhaps he was prince of a once prosperous kingdom taken over by this one, and he sees his chance to gain nobility back.

Or perhaps he sees the father dying as the kingdom dying unleas someone strong takes over (not believing the princess has the strength to do whats nessessary) and instead trying to force her into marriage in his own twisted view of "saving the kingdom" lol.

Hades from Icarus IS the embodyment of chaos and war. The same reason the one brat goddess killed people (for nature) and why Palputine spread her light. That makes him stronger, without war, he cant survive. I think thats a pretty strong motive to be bad. And just necause he is bad, doesnt mean he lost his sense of humor.

Metal face had a little more depths as well, jealousy and rage empowered by mechanous corruption. Besides, he wasnt the bbeg. He was more like Hans, CE with the permission to go cause havoc, only controlled by the BBEG. A tool doesn't count.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Alpha Wolves

[Lord_Grima]

I want to see a non-sorcerer Villain. While Dark Magic is nice, I don't want to see the almost stereotypical Sorcerer as the main or secondary antagonist(Iago, Validar, Zola, and others)

I liked having 

Spoiler

Takumi as the final boss in Conquest

It was something different and unique. Which also means I don't want a Dragon as the Final boss. (Grima, Anankos, Ganon's Dragon form, and several other dragons). 

[Slyfox]

29 minutes ago, Lord_Grima said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Takumi as the final boss in Conquest

It was something different and unique. Which also means I don't want a Dragon as the Final boss. (Grima, Anankos, Ganon's Dragon form, and several other dragons). 

(how does one remove the spoiler tag from a quote)

Anyway, Anna dialogue from My Room implies that we won't have a dragon as the big bad sooner rather than later.

 

The thing about Hades is that he is completely evil AND has a genuine sense of humor. It wasn't evil fake humor, Hades likes a joke for the sake of it. It made him instantly relatable, without giving him any redeeming qualities.

I also liked Metal Face. Not exactly sure what they were trying to do with him, so I felt that his screen time was a bit wasted. However, his appearances were fun all the same, and I wanted to see more of him.

[Etrurian emperor]

9 hours ago, Slyfox said:

(how does one remove the spoiler tag from a quote)

Anyway, Anna dialogue from My Room implies that we won't have a dragon as the big bad sooner rather than later.

 

The thing about Hades is that he is completely evil AND has a genuine sense of humor. It wasn't evil fake humor, Hades likes a joke for the sake of it. It made him instantly relatable, without giving him any redeeming qualities.

I also liked Metal Face. Not exactly sure what they were trying to do with him, so I felt that his screen time was a bit wasted. However, his appearances were fun all the same, and I wanted to see more of him.

Hades was very funny most of the time but I don't think some of the things he says are meant to be joke. When Hades says ''well I never really thougt about it'' when Pit calls him out on all the damage he's causing Hades might be completely serious which gives him some more evil points.

As for Metal Face, I Always say him as a schoolyard bully being made invincible.

[Dandy Druid]

On 2/12/2017 at 7:19 AM, InfinityAlex said:

I want a fleshed out version of Gangrel. Not only did he have decent motivation, being a victim whose lust for retribution had consumed him and driven him to nihilism, I actually found him pretty likable. He had a twisted sense of humour, with plenty of black comedy one-liners, but his supports with Robin showed that his relationship to Grima is something of mutual indifference, caring more the people than the deity.

Alternatively, I want a more heroic version of Walhart. Someone who's trying to do the right thing and save the world from the big bad, but in the wrong way. I'd like them to be a genuinely nice and caring person, with their army being a darker reflection of the Lord's; A group where people do care for each other and are strengthened by their bonds. The main villain would even be cordial towards the heroes and wishing to avoid conflict at first, but their extreme and uncompromising ideals would force the two sides into conflict, as the villain slips further into insanity, bearing nothing but resent for the Lord by the endgame. If the goals of the two sides have some overlap, the villain's army could even appear as allies in a few chapters. I feel like this'd be much more effective at tugging at our heart strings than Fates, who only gave us a few chapters to get to know each family before having to make the choice. The antagonist may not even start out in direct conflict with our heroes, but eventually draws one side draws a line after become irrevocably disgusted with the other. For example, the antagonist may forever break relations with the Lord after cruelly killing an enemy in cold blood.

FE4 and FE8 had similar villains to what you described- Alvis and Lyon respectively.

[AlexArtsHere]

Never played Genealogy (holding out for an English remake!), but I know that Lyon was basically possessed in FE8, iirc, so I'm talking more of a villain doing these things of their own volition.

[Anomalocaris]

See, I really liked Gangrel for the same reason we praise Hades and Metal Face (who is my favorite Nintendo villain of all time btw). He was petty and evil but he was genuinely funny. And you weren't even laughing at him all the time, you were laughing with him, and that does more to make a character sympathetic than slapping some tragic backstory on them (though the latter can certainly help if done right). We as a species use humor as a way of growing close to other humans, so a villain with a good sense of humor can be, perversely enough, magnetizing and likeable. This all made him entertaining in many ways.

The ultimate goal of any consumable media is to entertain the reader. If you can do that through a dramatic, no-nonsense villain or a sympathetic, tragic villain then you've succeeded, but if you can do it through a funny villain you've also succeeded just as hard. Even Grima, dull apocalypse though he may be, at least gets some points from me for being unexpectedly sardonic, whereas Anankos is just bland and may as well been an insapient force of evil to be destroyed.

I'm not really confident in the writers' ability to make a purely tragic and sympathetic villain, so for this game's big bad (or Gharnef archetype, if we're doing another apocalypse dragon) I'd rather see something more like a more developed, full-game Gangrel; entertaining and humorous in his villainy to make us like him, but still a credible, serious threat who poses a real danger to our heroes and the world to remind us that we're supposed to hate him, with some sympathetic undertones to allow a bit more depth of character.

Oh, and mechanically speaking, make him or her a class other than a Sorceror or General, of course. Maybe make their signature weapon a lance, even. We've had plenty of evil axes and tomes but not many lances.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Anomalocaris

[Sunwoo]

How about a villain who's not an asshole or wants to take over the world for starters? I'd like an FE villain who is a great king or queen or emperor/empress to their people, the most beloved ruler ever, but their land is small and economically sucks. Their ruler tried to negotiate trade deals with the protagonist country, but the lord's parent was an asshole who tried to take advantage of a kingdom that's already struggling, and your villainous ruler was pushed into a corner until they had to declare war on the protagonist country just for survival. The villain's countrymen know this, and so they fight for the cause. At the end of the story, the lord could decide to not be like their parent and after the final villain is dead come up with a more peaceful arrangement between the two countries.

It'd be interesting to have the protagonist country be ruled by an asshole, but they still get invaded and go through the other motions of your typical FE protagonist country.

[OakTree]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

How about a villain who's not an asshole or wants to take over the world for starters? I'd like an FE villain who is a great king or queen or emperor/empress to their people, the most beloved ruler ever, but their land is small and economically sucks. Their ruler tried to negotiate trade deals with the protagonist country, but the lord's parent was an asshole who tried to take advantage of a kingdom that's already struggling, and your villainous ruler was pushed into a corner until they had to declare war on the protagonist country just for survival. The villain's countrymen know this, and so they fight for the cause. At the end of the story, the lord could decide to not be like their parent and after the final villain is dead come up with a more peaceful arrangement between the two countries.

It'd be interesting to have the protagonist country be ruled by an asshole, but they still get invaded and go through the other motions of your typical FE protagonist country.

I had a similar idea that was different in a few areas, mostly, it would be an FE story where the "Evil" country is the one being invaded after the MC's parent, a ruler who is prideful and stubborn rather than outright greedy, refuses to help an invading nation after said nation is struck by a heavy weather that ruins the lives of many low-class citizens.

 

An FE game where the "Evil" country is the one being invaded due to a stubborn, prideful ruler could go a lot of different ways, you could explore themes such as nationalism and blind patriotism, as the protagonist's nation could be extremelly isolationist and it's noble figures extremelly arrogant, believing the enemy nation to be nothing more than barbaric brutes who deserve no simpathy, while the invading nation would believe strongly that their invasion was not only necessary, but also justified, and that the "Evil" country "had it coming" after years of being lead by selfish nobles who don't care for other nations, which makes both nations flawled.

You could also explore themes such as the influences greed can have on wars, as in a scenario where the central conflict is caused by a war that was necessary for the invaders, there would be tons of different people who exploit the conflict for their own ends, the game's evil Bishop could try to expand his faith by spreading fanaticism and use the fear caused by the war times to manipulate the people of the nation he resides in, mercenaries who will gladly commit any detestable actions for whoever pays them high enough and low-ranking commanders from both sides who try to use the war as a way to gain more power.

And finally, you could explore themes of Kingship with the leaders of both nations, the MC's parent could be portrayed as someone who doesn't believe that there is any worth in trading between nations, their people have been doing just fine for generations so why should they trade with outsiders? To them, rellying on outsiders is a proof of a nation's weakness and inability to stand on it's own, and that a ruler should always seek to do what will benefit their people and their people alone. Meanwhile, the enemy nation's ruler would be portrayed as deeply troubled, but firm, they know that waging war was not a good idea as much as it was them trying to make the most out of a bad sittuation where there were no easy answers, however, they still decide to go with the war until the very end, as it's still the route which might in the long run bring stability to the people of both nations, as, regardless of who wins the war, both countries would likely be in a state where they would have rely on each other for their survival.

Edited February 22, 2017 by OakTree

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

How about a villain who's not an asshole or wants to take over the world for starters? I'd like an FE villain who is a great king or queen or emperor/empress to their people, the most beloved ruler ever, but their land is small and economically sucks. Their ruler tried to negotiate trade deals with the protagonist country, but the lord's parent was an asshole who tried to take advantage of a kingdom that's already struggling, and your villainous ruler was pushed into a corner until they had to declare war on the protagonist country just for survival. The villain's countrymen know this, and so they fight for the cause. At the end of the story, the lord could decide to not be like their parent and after the final villain is dead come up with a more peaceful arrangement between the two countries.

It'd be interesting to have the protagonist country be ruled by an asshole, but they still get invaded and go through the other motions of your typical FE protagonist country.

That's basically how I headcanon Nohr to be, minus the 'small' part. Garon isn't nice but he only turns to evil when Hoshido denies trading them crucial resources.

Here's an idea, what if YOU start out as the empire (with the asshole ruler) and a rebellion against your family begins. Some of the reasons for the rebellion are legitimate and cause for reform but some of factions rebelling are just as bad if not worse than the people they want to overthrow. The protagonists would start with defending their empire but slowly uncovering the problems it has (because of the asshole ruler) while also dealing with dangerous insurgent groups.

Edited February 22, 2017 by NekoKnight

[N30]

On 2/12/2017 at 9:40 PM, NekoKnight said:

I'd like to see a villain who is loved by his people, or at least his faction. Not out of fanaticism but because he's someone who genuinely looks out after their interest. InfinityAlex's  suggestion is a good prompt. Hopefully the villain can be a foil to the protagonist, maybe two people of similar values that made distinct choices that lead them down the paths of villainy and heroism, respectively.

The villain should have understandable goals that aren't born out of misanthropy or baseless desire for destruction.

So... Trabant with more depth?

But yeah, I'd like to see a main villain that for one is very much like the lord - strange minds think alike sort of way, how they both conducted themselves throughout the game, and how they basically both went through an entire FE game before meeting here in the Final Chapter, ready to absolutely decimate each other's forces.

Hell, in the final map and throughout the game, the villain has fielded the same amount of troops as you have as each of your forces attempt to match each other blow for blow. Hell, there could be a map earlier on where you do this and a third faction (bandits) comes in and forces both sides to temporarily team up, right as the villain is on his/her legs.

Edited February 22, 2017 by N30

[vanguard333]

Something I realized: as far as I know, Fire Emblem, apart from Genealogy, never really had a story where the hero and villain are blood-related (and Seliph and Julius are blood-related due to very unusual circumstances. Plus, Julius is possessed by the true antagonist). I know it is a cliché that has been written so many times, but evil uncle or brother could be interesting.

One idea I had would be that the hero's father is king, but the hero is forced to flee after the uncle makes a deal with an evil empire and usurps the throne. When the hero returns, he/she finds out about a rebellion that seems like something they could form an alliance with, but then they discover that the uncle, while pretending to support the empire, is actually the leader of the kingdom's rebellion.