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What's a good growth rate?


RainBuckets
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This is mostly based of class that the unit have. Most of time just have good speed and atk(str or mag) is enought good rate cause they are stats that most of people care most. They still value hp and def but not as much atk and speed. Except for unit as role as tank that usually have very good hp and def growth rate but bad speed growth rate.

Good end game stats is based of stats of end game enemies you fight. Meaning that unit that should do damage can deal considered amount of damage or kill the enemy while tank can take the shit throw against them can be considered good end game stats. If they can't they probabily rng screwed.

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It's all relative depending on the game. And also depending on base stats (which are generally more important).

An extra 20% growth vs. +2 to the base stat, means the unit will be more powerful before they level up 10 times. That's generally a good portion of the game.

40% in the older games is considered a decent growth. These days it's considered mediocre or even outright bad. But whether that's relevant or not is largely to do with the stat itself or bases. A 40% skill growth is w/e. A 40% speed growth can be an issue if their base speed isn't that respectable.

In FE7, lategame stat requirements are not strict whatsoever because enemies so not scale that much. Bases in a mode like HHM matter more considering the difficulty early on. Growths matter very little unless they're extreme (dorcas speed). This is why Nino isn't considered very good. Her potential would matter far more in a game where the lategame was far more difficult. Pent/Erk, despite having worse growths, do not have suffering performance in comparison because the bar for being really strong isn't that high.

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Gotcha. I guess I wasn't really clear in what I'm looking for.

Let's take someone like Pent. I've heard his stats start high, with 18 attack, 17 speed, 11 defense and 16 res (HP, skill, luck are less important, correct?). I have no idea how good this is, other than just "good". I'm not sure how strong the enemies are, other than "weak". I'm not sure which stats of his are high or low, or how enemies scale in different modes. And I'm not sure how stats compare to each other (having 20 speed is high, I think, while its low for HP) or what a good growth rate is (40% is okay? but I think defense is harder to get, so 40% defense would be great?).

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There's no way to quantify if a growth is good or not, it all depends on context. Pent's speed growth is 40%, which is generally pretty OK, but his base is great, so his growth works well. Bartre on the other hand also has a 40% speed growth, but his base is so awful that his growth really struggles to salvage him. As a general rule of thumb, a 40% is considered pretty passable for an non defensive stat, but I'd recommend against using them as a sole measure of a unit's worth!

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29 minutes ago, Harvey said:

I'm starting to wonder if growth rates still matter to FE considering how the recent games allow you to grind your units till full power for the endgame whatsoever....

 

They still matter quite a bit to the players who don't grind, or do LTC.

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47 minutes ago, Jedi said:

They still matter quite a bit to the players who don't grind, or do LTC.

I'm just saying that if FE is going to go into the grinding route instead of the classic limit leveling, growth rates mean nothing. if they do more games like Conquest then yea, they do matter but otherwise, not really...

 

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7 hours ago, Harvey said:

I'm just saying that if FE is going to go into the grinding route instead of the classic limit leveling, growth rates mean nothing. if they do more games like Conquest then yea, they do matter but otherwise, not really...

Well even in the games with grinding, you have quite a number of players who do no grind runs. Most players I personally know who play FE8 and 13 for instance do not grind whatsoever unless they are doing a very casual run.

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I just want to be able to look at a unit's stats (bases, growths, weapons available, class, etc.) and evaluate them on my own, instead of going to a tier list for every single character (maybe multiple, if ranked runs vs casual runs). Growths obviously aren't everything, but they do matter, especially for units like Hector where they join early and you level them often.

My current understanding for stats in general is that SPD is king, then STR/MAG. DEF/RES matters a bit too. SKL, HP, and LUK aren't as important, though (in that order). Bases obviously differ depending on when they join, but let's say that 10+ is really good for the early game, and ~20 is good enough for the mid/late game. HP is obviously an exception where 20-30 is fine in the early game. A growth of 40% is considered "average" for a stat, with the exceptions of HP (80%) and DEF (??%). Does all that seem correct?

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51 minutes ago, RainBuckets said:

I just want to be able to look at a unit's stats (bases, growths, weapons available, class, etc.) and evaluate them on my own, instead of going to a tier list for every single character (maybe multiple, if ranked runs vs casual runs). Growths obviously aren't everything, but they do matter, especially for units like Hector where they join early and you level them often.

My current understanding for stats in general is that SPD is king, then STR/MAG. DEF/RES matters a bit too. SKL, HP, and LUK aren't as important, though (in that order). Bases obviously differ depending on when they join, but let's say that 10+ is really good for the early game, and ~20 is good enough for the mid/late game. HP is obviously an exception where 20-30 is fine in the early game. A growth of 40% is considered "average" for a stat, with the exceptions of HP (80%) and DEF (??%). Does all that seem correct?

You should care about unit class then judge the growth by it. The general idea is okey but you shouldn't never expected a knight to have 40% speed or a myrmidon have less than 50% speed(this is also based of game you pick). There are some exception but they usually used differently than the general idea of their class.

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Why do people think HP is less useful than DEF? Just because it is easier to get doesn't mean that it is not as important. 

Yeah, I know DEF works for you twice if you get doubled, but most players won't use a character that gets doubled. Plus, HP works for both physical and magic attacks. And while a unit can still be feasible with 0 DEF, a unit with 0 HP is dead.

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8 hours ago, Jedi said:

Well even in the games with grinding, you have quite a number of players who do no grind runs. Most players I personally know who play FE8 and 13 for instance do not grind whatsoever unless they are doing a very casual run.

Well that can change if Nintendo decides to remove them for those that have unlimited grinding features.

 

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fwiw (not much), here are the averages and medians of the growth rates in the GBA games:

FE6
    HP   Str  Skl  Spd  Lck  Def  Res
avg 74.0 39.5 38.8 42.8 40.8 21.5 20.6
med 75   40   40   40   35   20   15

FE7
    HP   Str  Skl  Spd  Lck  Def  Res
avg 71.7 40.2 41.3 45.5 39.8 23.5 30.1
med 70   40   40   40   37.5 20   30

FE8
    HP   Str  Skl  Spd  Lck  Def  Res
avg 72.7 45.3 43.2 46.5 40.1 28.6 31.1
med 75   45   40   45   40   25   25

Those are completely unfiltered (exept for postgame characters), so leaving out Fae, FE6!Karel, Merlinus and Myrrh as outliers would change the numbers a bit. But they do confirm the numbers thrown around in the thread.

But again, averages at a given level and (even moreso) averages in a given chapter are a lot more telling than growth rates are, although the latter depends on your playstyle and how much effort you are willing to put into raising an underleveled unit. Wendy with her decent growth rates in every stat is probably the best example of a terrible unit with good growth rates.

And even then, stuff like weapon rank and utility (staff or thieving) can be a huge deal. Pent, for example, would still be great without his staff rank, but it sure doesn't hurt him, either.

47 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

What bothers me more is 'how'.

Well, they could design a level curve so that the player characters are completely unable to keep up with the enemies with just the XP they can gain during the story fights. It would be horrible game design, but it's not impossible.

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12 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

Why do people think HP is less useful than DEF? Just because it is easier to get doesn't mean that it is not as important. 

Yeah, I know DEF works for you twice if you get doubled, but most players won't use a character that gets doubled. Plus, HP works for both physical and magic attacks. And while a unit can still be feasible with 0 DEF, a unit with 0 HP is dead.

I guess (and I'm still new so IDK if this is right) it's because defense works for every single battle. If the enemy attacks Hector 5 times during their turn, his defense is counted 5 times. If they all have 10 attack, and Hector has 8 defense, then he's taking 10 damage. If instead Hector has 7 defense and +2 HP, he's taking 15 damage, a net loss of 3 HP. So even if the unit isn't getting doubled, being attacked during the enemy turn is like getting doubled/tripled/etc if they all gang up on him.

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4 hours ago, RainBuckets said:

I guess (and I'm still new so IDK if this is right) it's because defense works for every single battle. If the enemy attacks Hector 5 times during their turn, his defense is counted 5 times. If they all have 10 attack, and Hector has 8 defense, then he's taking 10 damage. If instead Hector has 7 defense and +2 HP, he's taking 15 damage, a net loss of 3 HP. So even if the unit isn't getting doubled, being attacked during the enemy turn is like getting doubled/tripled/etc if they all gang up on him.

Didn't think about that. Makes sense though. Thanks!

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On 2/27/2017 at 1:46 PM, SullyMcGully said:

Didn't think about that. Makes sense though. Thanks!

Actually wanted to add something. For a dodge tank, HP is a little more beneficial than DEF/RES. If they are dodging a majority of attacks, then that stat isn't getting counted like the previous example, since they just aren't getting hit often enough. So with that being equal, HP will be better than DEF/RES since it grows faster and also counts for both physical and magical attacks. (Plus if they get a % of HP back, I think on a fort or something, they'll be a little more survivable too.)

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