Siblings, Nohr vs Hoshido

[HK Motendra]

6 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

It may just be the German translation of the game, but this 'rightful contempt and suspicion' (a point which I can even agree with) comes across as nothing more than self-righteous arrogance: 'We are better than you', which, again, is some incredibly high level of racism, if not the very definition of racism, not unlike what was present in medieval Christianity (specifically the Crusades), the era of imperialism (specifically slavery) and of course Nazi Germany (which my family actually was affected by).

If I may chime in for one thing only

Do keep in mind that Hoshido takes base from the eastern world and therefore, not much of this is very applicable, when trying to put the two nations into context, since the two go by different standards.

One thing I came across when randomly cruising the internet was Japan's Sakoku period. The word, itself, literally translates to "closed country" (someone correct me if I'm wrong). With it, severe restrictions were in place for those who came in, and should anyone leave and/or return without special permission (operating phrase), would face penalty of death. It was meant for stability of the shogunate and peace for the archipelago that lasted well over 200 years.

With that in mind, assuming the devs took any reference from history, Takumi's distrust of both Corrin and Azura is only natural, along with illustrating some line in the early game on how Ryoma had to work REALLY hard to establish a relationship with Mikoto. That, and japan leans more toward collectivism in comparison to the western standards, like, say, the UK, so there is a more "we" mentality present, yet oddly, is more individualistic by eastern standards, such as China.

Additionally, Japan is one of the most masculine societies (meaning, what motivates them is wanting to be the best. The opposite, feminine, is liking what you do) in the world, while also rather restraint as well. Ryoma exemplifies both of these together in his relationship with his son Shiro, as does Takumi (the masculinity, that is) for being in his elder brother's shadow. I... don't yet know what to say about Hinoka, but the societal restrant must have rubbed off on Sakura, which makes her so shy, imo.

.....

Getting off the Hofstede analysis and back to the topic at hand, even though pure bias makes Leo my fav out of all eight royals, along with his support with Corrin, character potential along with personal unit performance into account, I'm gonna have to give it to the Hoshido siblings.

[Tuvy]

GOTTA LOVE THEM PINEAPPLE'S!

[Folt]

Nohr sibs as a whole over the Hoshido ones. I care much more about Leo, Elise, Xander, even Camilla, than I do about the Hoshido ones where I only really care about Sakura and, to a lesser extent, Hinoka. Ryoma is alright, but I don't really care for him in the same way as I do the others (and I'm more interested in his weapon than Ryoma himself) and I'm not a fan of Takumi (though I dig his characterization on the Conquest route as it makes me want to take him down, and go from that to mercy killing him at the end), so Conquest already satisfies me in that regard.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Folt

[Erureido]

Easily the Hoshido siblings for me.

• Takumi vs Leo: Leo is alright, but I think Takumi was a miles more interesting character than his Nohrian counterpart, not to mention I better relate to Takumi's insecurities compared to Leo's. I didn't like how Leo treated his son in Forrest's paralogue either, though at least their relationship improves in their supports.
• Sakura vs Elise: True that Sakura is shy, but I really admire her quiet strength and how she is willing to fight should her kingdom ever be invaded. I like her more than her Nohrian counterpart because Elise had moments in the story that made me face palm, and she's a little too energetic for my tastes to the point she felt like the more stereotypical loli. I loved Elise's role in Birthright though.
• Hinoka vs Camilla: Yeah, I actually like Hinoka. I enjoy her supports all around (minus the one with Saizo of course), and I do sympathize with the struggles she took into becoming the pegasus knight she is now (perhaps it's because I actually see myself in her when she sometimes works out to the extreme and the impatience in becoming the best in something can sometimes get to the best of me). Meanwhile, I don't like Camilla at all. Her Corrin-obsession and yandere attitudes really creeps me out.
• Ryoma vs Xander: I know Xander gets a lot of flack for his actions in the story, and I can see why, but I found myself being more attached to him than with Ryoma. It's because I'm attached to the Support-side of him and how he went through plenty of hardships to become the strong fighter he is today. Ryoma felt more bland compared to Xander, but I'll give him credit that at least his actions in the story were better than his Nohrian counterpart, not to mention I enjoy Ryoma's sage-like advice to those that need him.

The Hoshidan royals seem like a family I'd better adjust to in real life than the Nohrian royals.

[Azure Sen]

20 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

I'd argue that if one is to only stick to the information that was blatantly spelled out than Fates would be even worse off for it. And nobody really wants that. Besides, there is nothing wrong with trying to apply at least some real world, human, "what would make sense in this sort of scenario" or "is there any pattern to these things" type of logic to a situation presented in a video game.

The thing is, speaking from a historical context and based on real world logic, the mothers having their kids kill each other makes zero sense. The kids are the only reason why they have political capital in the first place, and they'll presumably lose any political capital they have when the children die, so why would they send them into situations where the children could get easily killed because of their political rivalries? If anything, the translation making what happened more ambiguous brings it closer to reality. 

9 hours ago, Res said:

I played through the games making a note of everyone who said Nohrian Scum because I also didn't recall Takumi saying it - but he does, once (I forget where. Maybe halfway through Conquest?) However, it's definitely a Hinoka catchphrase first and foremost (it's also uttered by a few other characters).

9 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Takumi definitely uses it at least once in Conquest, the instance I recall being in chapter 12 when he yells at Corrin to shut up. I think Hinoka may say it more than he does, though.

Having double-checked,Takumi says it once in Chapter 18, and then doesn't again as far as I can tell.

[Nanima]

1 hour ago, AzureSen said:

The thing is, speaking from a historical context and based on real world logic, the mothers having their kids kill each other makes zero sense. The kids are the only reason why they have political capital in the first place, and they'll presumably lose any political capital they have when the children die, so why would they send them into situations where the children could get easily killed because of their political rivalries? If anything, the translation making what happened more ambiguous brings it closer to reality.

The children were already at risk simply by living in the same space as the concubines (who would profit immensely if their rival's kid died). Also, it would be much easier to maneuver one of the kids (I assume only the older ones were actually sent on kill missions, since a toddler would make for an awful assassin) close to their siblings, than the concubines themselves doing it. Additionally, do you think the kids randomly charged each other in an open hallway? There are poisons and other methods, which would involve minimal danger to the killer's person. Their children would also be much less likely to betray them or sell them out than a random hired assassin. Plus, in the event they were caught, their punishment would be much less severe than if their mothers were caught.

Also you should check out actual real world history. Given the prevalence of fratricide in Harem systems, a concubine would be very much aware of the need to remove her rival's children before they in turn murdered her own. Fratricide being such a common occurence in real life harems, it feels much weirder for that to be conspicously absent in Fates.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Nanima

[makuroh]

Honestly this whole concubine war thing doesn't even make sense, if anyone of the children would have been at risk of death it should have been Xander since he is the legitimate heir and crown prince, by killing him the other women would gain more power since the position of heir to the throne will be open, Camilla for example could have been the crown princess, so how come he never mentions this? If things really got so bad that they resulted in killing children, I seriously doubt Xander would be ignorant of all this considering how protective he is of his siblings. I just think it's weird for him not to mention this in his supports if it really was something important that happened in the past.

[Extrasolar]

29 minutes ago, UdoGudo said:

Honestly this whole concubine war thing doesn't even make sense, if anyone of the children would have been at risk of death it should have been Xander since he is the legitimate heir and crown prince, by killing him the other women would gain more power since the position of heir to the throne will be open, Camilla for example could have been the crown princess, so how come he never mentions this? If things really got so bad that they resulted in killing children, I seriously doubt Xander would be ignorant of all this considering how protective he is of his siblings. I just think it's weird for him not to mention this in his supports if it really was something important that happened in the past.

If any of the others targeted (and managed to kill Xander), all hell would break loose, so imo it makes sense why Xander was safe from their schemes. The concubines fought for attention and favor from Garon; I'm sure they knew, realistically, that their children would never match the attention that the crown prince himself received from the king. Not to mention, they don't exactly want to piss off Garon or make him sad by killing his firstborn son. it would also throw the entire kingdom into chaos of the sudden vacancy of position. Not to mention, it would be a crapshoot - for all they knew, Garon wouldn't legitimize any of their children, and thus, the point would be moot.

I don't necessarily think Xander was ignorant of it. But considering that Xander tells us that he was kind of a spindly, shy and nondescript guy, I don't think he was in any position to change it, and/or was too scared to. He didn't become the forceful, strict guy that he is now until later, I believe. As for why he doesn't mention it, I imagine it's a very painful time to remember.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Azure Sen]

@Nanima, we're getting kind of off-topic with all this history talk; if you're interested we can continue via PM, but otherwise let's just agree to disagree.  However, there is one thing I did want to discuss because it's actually related to the topic at hand:

4 hours ago, Nanima said:

Also, it would be much easier to maneuver one of the kids (I assume only the older ones were actually sent on kill missions, since a toddler would make for an awful assassin) close to their siblings, than the concubines themselves doing it.

Thank you for this, because you've made me realize a bigger problem with the whole "kids were killing other at the behest of their mothers" claim that I didn't see before: in the timeline we can construct based on what information the game gives us, the oldest kid would have been Xander at around fifteen if we're being generous but probably more in the range of ten to twelve while all this was going on. It's not a matter of just toddlers being awful assassins, it's that kids in general are awful assassins, and the idea that there was all this political intrigue being carried out by children just shatters my suspension of disbelief. That, and I'm not inclined to trust Leo as a source given that he would have been around four at oldest when the "concubine wars" ended, and thus have almost no memories of the events; any information he tells Elise would have to be second-hand accounts at best.

And honestly, I think that we've gotten to the point where we're arguing about things outside the realm of canon and the writers' intentions and thus firmly in the realm of speculation and headcanons. Thinking about it now, it's pretty clear to me that IntSys didn't bother actually devising a consistent set of events for the "concubine wars," nor were they ever meant to be more than a vaguely alluded to tragic backstory for the Nohr siblings.

Edited February 27, 2017 by AzureSen

[Luna of Dragonblood]

Ah this is a tough, TOUGH question. Honestly, I love both sets of siblings...!! If I had to pick between the individuals, though...

Xander vs Ryoma: ...Uh. I dislike them both in the story, and find them rather sweet and personable in their supports. I like and dislike them in this regard about the same, though I seem to find myself a little more frustrated at Xander moreso than Ryoma...
Camilla vs Hinoka: Contrary to how I see a lot of people say Hinoka's pretty bland, I find that's only true in the story. While I do think she desperately needed more plot importance/lines, I find her supports to be pretty interesting. Hardworking (to a fault), dedicated, loyal, and headstrong (to a fault), she does things with the best of intent...although her efforts don't always have the desired result. Camilla wins partially because I went through Conquest first, and partially because I find her character so fascinating. A troubled woman who struggles with the concepts of being a woman, a mother-like figure toward her siblings (moreso in English than in Japanese, but...), and all while haunted by the demons from her past. Of course, she gets reduced to Miss Fanservice, so...the game doesn't let her really be much more than that, even within certain supports.
Leo vs Takumi: ...UHHHHHHHHHH this is hard because I love and adore both of them. I simply cannot choose. They're both so very flawed, and so very human. Feeling as if they're living in their older brother's shadow, feeling distant from their other siblings, struggling with their own personal frustrations and insecurities...! Both are extremely well developed in the story and within their supports, and I love them both so very, very much.
Elise vs Sakura: This was extremely, extremely close. Both are extremely sweet, strong willed, and are extremely loving. Elise wins by just a hair because I find her role in Birthright to have left such a strong impression of her and her character. Sakura definitely deserves some credit: for as bold and outgoing as Elise can be, Sakura is courageous and is willing to put herself in uncomfortable and even dangerous situations for the sake of protecting the lives of the innocent. That takes a lot of guts, and I find that extremely admirable.

26 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I don't necessarily think Xander was ignorant of it. But considering that Xander tells us that he was kind of a spindly, shy and nondescript guy, I don't think he was in any position to change it, and/or was too scared to. He didn't become the forceful, strict guy that he is now until later, I believe. As for why he doesn't mention it, I imagine it's a very painful time to remember.

Excuse me for butting in, but I do have an answer for this: he's definitely aware of what happened...spoilers for the Nohrian Drama CD (I'm using a translated version, and haven't translated this myself...from what I can hear/understand, it's at least close to what's being said):

Spoiler

Xander: Laslow, how many Nohrian princes and princesses do you think once existed?
Laslow: ...Huh?
Xander: Father once had many concubines. So long ago, I had many siblings, but all there is left is [sic] those that stand here today. There are those that fell in battle, those who were executed, those that were taken by Hoshido, those that got involved in the struggles between concubines and murdered one another.
Laslow: No way...!
Xander: Being unable to protect them, I regretted it many times...

(Bolded is for emphasis - the scene goes on, but it's partially spoilery for the CD, and partially unrelated to the conversation/point)

 

[SpearOfLies]

34 minutes ago, Luna of Dragonblood said:

Ah this is a tough, TOUGH question. Honestly, I love both sets of siblings...!! If I had to pick between the individuals, though...

Xander vs Ryoma: ...Uh. I dislike them both in the story, and find them rather sweet and personable in their supports. I like and dislike them in this regard about the same, though I seem to find myself a little more frustrated at Xander moreso than Ryoma...
Camilla vs Hinoka: Contrary to how I see a lot of people say Hinoka's pretty bland, I find that's only true in the story. While I do think she desperately needed more plot importance/lines, I find her supports to be pretty interesting. Hardworking (to a fault), dedicated, loyal, and headstrong (to a fault), she does things with the best of intent...although her efforts don't always have the desired result. Camilla wins partially because I went through Conquest first, and partially because I find her character so fascinating. A troubled woman who struggles with the concepts of being a woman, a mother-like figure toward her siblings (moreso in English than in Japanese, but...), and all while haunted by the demons from her past. Of course, she gets reduced to Miss Fanservice, so...the game doesn't let her really be much more than that, even within certain supports.
Leo vs Takumi: ...UHHHHHHHHHH this is hard because I love and adore both of them. I simply cannot choose. They're both so very flawed, and so very human. Feeling as if they're living in their older brother's shadow, feeling distant from their other siblings, struggling with their own personal frustrations and insecurities...! Both are extremely well developed in the story and within their supports, and I love them both so very, very much.
Elise vs Sakura: This was extremely, extremely close. Both are extremely sweet, strong willed, and are extremely loving. Elise wins by just a hair because I find her role in Birthright to have left such a strong impression of her and her character. Sakura definitely deserves some credit: for as bold and outgoing as Elise can be, Sakura is courageous and is willing to put herself in uncomfortable and even dangerous situations for the sake of protecting the lives of the innocent. That takes a lot of guts, and I find that extremely admirable.

Excuse me for butting in, but I do have an answer for this: he's definitely aware of what happened...spoilers for the Nohrian Drama CD (I'm using a translated version, and haven't translated this myself...from what I can hear/understand, it's at least close to what's being said):

  Hide contents

Xander: Laslow, how many Nohrian princes and princesses do you think once existed?
Laslow: ...Huh?
Xander: Father once had many concubines. So long ago, I had many siblings, but all there is left is [sic] those that stand here today. There are those that fell in battle, those who were executed, those that were taken by Hoshido, those that got involved in the struggles between concubines and murdered one another.
Laslow: No way...!
Xander: Being unable to protect them, I regretted it many times...

(Bolded is for emphasis - the scene goes on, but it's partially spoilery for the CD, and partially unrelated to the conversation/point)

 

I guess the one take by Hoshido is Azura.

[Luna of Dragonblood]

2 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

I guess the one take by Hoshido is Azura.

That's what I believe too, yes.

[SpearOfLies]

2 minutes ago, Luna of Dragonblood said:

That's what I believe too, yes.

I hate her more now.

[Luna of Dragonblood]

13 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

I hate her more now.

Not to drag this off topic, but I think Azura being kidnapped shouldn't be reason to hate her (though, you're entitled to dislike/hate her character). She was a child when it happened...she couldn't really fight back. Plus, she establishes how minimally guarded she was. Even if she kicked, bit, punched, flailed, screamed, cried, etc...no one was really around to help her, thus she was easy to kidnap.

Basing it off of Xander's feelings isn't fair, either (which is what I'm guessing is the feeling, based on your reply); she didn't intentionally harm him. Even if she went with her kidnapper(s) willingly, she was, still, just a child...a traumatized and abused one, at that.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Luna of Dragonblood

[SpearOfLies]

8 minutes ago, Luna of Dragonblood said:

Not to drag this off topic, but I think Azura being kidnapped shouldn't be reason to hate her (though, you're entitled to dislike/hate her character). She was a child when it happened...she couldn't really fight back. Plus, she establishes how minimally guarded she was. Even if she kicked, bit, punched, flailed, screamed, cried, etc...no one was really around to help her, thus she was easy to kidnap.

Basing it off of Xander's feelings isn't fair, either (which is what I'm guessing is the feeling, based on your reply); she didn't intentionally harm him. Even if she went with her kidnapper(s) willingly, she was, still, just a child...a traumatized and abused one, at that.

You misunderstood me. It's not that the reason. It's just she being the hugest plot hole of Fates.

[Luna of Dragonblood]

18 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

You misunderstood me. It's not that the reason. It's just she being the hugest plot hole of Fates.

Ah, that makes sense haha! Sorry, when you said you hated her more, I thought it meant that it was another reason on top of others. Thank you for clarifying!

[NekoKnight]

2 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Thank you for this, because you've made me realize a bigger problem with the whole "kids were killing other at the behest of their mothers" claim that I didn't see before: in the timeline we can construct based on what information the game gives us, the oldest kid would have been Xander at around fifteen if we're being generous but probably more in the range of ten to twelve while all this was going on. It's not a matter of just toddlers being awful assassins, it's that kids in general are awful assassins, and the idea that there was all this political intrigue being carried out by children just shatters my suspension of disbelief. That, and I'm not inclined to trust Leo as a source given that he would have been around four at oldest when the "concubine wars" ended, and thus have almost no memories of the events; any information he tells Elise would have to be second-hand accounts at best.

Sorry for off-topic but how are you approximating their ages? Are there context clues that give us a general sense of when the concubine war happened?

2 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Thinking about it now, it's pretty clear to me that IntSys didn't bother actually devising a consistent set of events for the "concubine wars," nor were they ever meant to be more than a vaguely alluded to tragic backstory for the Nohr siblings.

Not just the "concubine wars", a lot of events in the backstory don't have a clear sequence. The birth order of the Hoshidans siblings plus the timing of when Mikoto arrived with Kamui, the timing of Kamui's kidnapping, when Garon became Gooron and when Elise was born. It's a real mess.

10 hours ago, Motendra said:

Do keep in mind that Hoshido takes base from the eastern world and therefore, not much of this is very applicable, when trying to put the two nations into context, since the two go by different standards.

I think this is pretty reaching, honestly. Nohr and Hoshido are largely interchangeable because so little is done to characterize them in the game. Mikoto's barrier is reminiscent of "sakoku" but I don't think the devs put much work into making Hoshido a true Japan parallel (much less allude to their own racism). As AzureSen said, the increased animosity in the localization was likely an attempt at injecting moral ambiguity (which fails anyway because they have every reason to distrust Nohr).

10 hours ago, Motendra said:

With that in mind, assuming the devs took any reference from history, Takumi's distrust of both Corrin and Azura is only natural, along with illustrating some line in the early game on how Ryoma had to work REALLY hard to establish a relationship with Mikoto. 

Takumi is slow to trust everyone, that's just his personality not a trait shared by Hoshidans. As for Ryoma, I think the point being made is he was old enough to know that Mikoto is his step-mom, and he remembers his real mother who passed away.

 

[Azure Sen]

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Sorry for off-topic but how are you approximating their ages? Are there context clues that give us a general sense of when the concubine war happened?

There's a lot of small mentions and hints in various places, but nothing that gives a decent complete picture, not helped by the absolutely contradictory nature of some of the things discussed.

On the ages, in order:
-Xander I'll admit is the one whose age I'm being the most liberal with and that, all things considered, I may have low-balled his age. He has to be old enough to remember that Kamui isn't actually one of the Nohr siblings, similar to Ryoma, and also old enough to have clear memories of Garon. He was also old enough to be seriously training with a sword, as he mentions in his A Support with Sakura that his initial lack of talent with the sword disappointed his father, and this was also around the time he started his intense training regimen and drastic personality shift, which had to have happened before Leo was born. But then there's his and Leo's B Support, where Xander chose to take up the sword as his weapon of choice around the same time that Leo was old enough to use magic. I'd personally say somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-27.
-Camilla: Has to be older than Kamui but younger than Xander. Muddying the waters is the fact that she, by all accounts, didn't know about Kamui not being a Nohrian sibling despite being old enough to know that Azura existed, and the large gap between Xander and Kamui making her age much more ambiguous.
-Kamui: Has to be old enough to have concrete memories of Sumeragi as per Revelation and Sumeragi's death at Cheve as per Chapter 5. Hinoka mentions being seven when Kamui was kidnapped in her NA supports with Kamui and he needs to be younger than her, so the most likely age for Kamui at time of abduction is five or six.
-Azura: Because of the obvious parallels, is probably around the same age as Kamui, if maybe a little older due to what her backstory expects of her. Azura also had to be old enough to learn her mother's songs, and Arete also entrusted her with her knowledge of Valla. She also has to still be younger than Camilla and Hinoka, but older than Takumi, Sakura, Leo and Elise.
-Leo: Has to be younger than Kamui and young enough that he wouldn't remember Kamui being adopted. Leo's another muddy case, as he mentions having memories of when Garon was a kinder father (which, notably, Camilla never mentions having), and was also aware of his mutually unloving relationship with his mother, plus the stuff mentioned above about his and Xander's supports.
-Elise: The easiest to figure out. She was very young when Kamui and Azura were abducted, as Azura mentions hearing rumors of Elise's birth after she was taken to Hoshido in their B Support, so she had to have at least been born close to Garon's drastic personality change. 

As for when it happened and context clues about it and the events surrounding it:
-It's mentioned in Leo and Elise's B Support and Birthright 22 that Garon's drastic personality shift happened after Arete's death. 
-It's mentioned in Revelation 12 when Camilla joins and in Azura's supports with Niles that Azura was mistreated by the nobility and bullied by their children, but no mention is made of her being victimized by the other siblings or concubines, so she and Arete were presumably not involved with the concubine wars.
-Leo specifically says the following in his A Support with Elise: "Before you were born, the situation was awful, even within the royal family," hinting that the concubine wars may have ended around the time Elise was born. 
-Camilla's mother had to have at least been alive when Arete came to Nohr and presumably Camilla would have been old enough to know the significance of that, because she mentions in Revelation 12 that "there were many in the nobility who supported Queen Katerina. [Her] mother was one such person." She was also old enough to know to stay away from Azura when told to.
-Leo's mother's case is more ambiguous, as Camilla only says that he was kept away from Azura but not by who, but in his A Support with Elise it's mentioned that he was at least old enough to be aware that he was a pawn and his mother didn't love him and in return he didn't love her.
-Elise's mother was still alive at some point after the "concubine wars," as Elise remembers her well enough to know that her mother was calling out for Garon as she died. Elise also says that her mother only cared about Garon but is completely unaware that the concubine wars were a thing, so they must at the very least have been done by the time Elise's mother died.
-In Birthright 22, it's mentioned that Elise was the "daughter of someone who came after Arete, so [she] never got to meet her," further implying that the concubine wars were over by the time she was born.
-Unsure if it's relevant, but it's mentioned in Birthright 22 that Garon had sworn not to marry again after Katarina's death, at least until he met Arete. Whether or not this was a factor in the concubine wars is unknown.
-Very unsure of its accuracy because I couldn't find anything supporting it in any of the game's script, but supposedly Garon's personality change happened shortly after Elise was born.

In short: good god is Fates' timeline an absolute clusterfuck. I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing, but I've been at this for a while and my head's starting to hurt trying to parse all of this.

Edited February 28, 2017 by AzureSen

[Extrasolar]

14 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

In short: good god is Fates' timeline an absolute clusterfuck. I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing, but I've been at this for a while and my head's starting to hurt trying to parse all of this.

I think it was done purposefully, considering Corrin can't have a canon age due to having different models that have to be different ages - the taller model looks like they're easily 18/19, while the younger model is somewhere in the neighborhood of 14/15.

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, AzureSen said:

In short: good god is Fates' timeline an absolute clusterfuck. I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing, but I've been at this for a while and my head's starting to hurt trying to parse all of this.

Yikes, that really is convoluted. This is what happens when you have 10 siblings who came from 7 different mothers.

Edited February 28, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Slyfox]

It would take too long to explain why I prefer some characters and dislike some others. I'll just leave a couple of lists instead.

 

Characters in order of preference.

1. Xander

2. Leo

3. Camilla

4. Sakura

5. Hinoka

6. Takumi

7. Ryoma

8. Elise

 

So yeah, I'm Nohrian Scum.

 

As for best written (which the supports vs story make extremely hard to judge).

1. Leo

2. Takumi (not that this prick deserves it, but I won't deny that he is one of the best characters in Fates)

3. Sakura

4. Elise (Her little arc in Birthright is more noticeable than what Sakura had, but I don't think it was that good, sooo....)

5. Xander (Continuing the fight after accidentally killing Elise, who begs him to stop, is in character based on all three routes he appears in. So, I will say that he is well written in that regard, whether or not anyone hates him for it. Add in supports, however, and we DO have a lot of inconsistencies. Not to mention his other story blunders that actually harm Nohr. But he still beats Ryoma because...)

6. Ryoma. (Ryoma is just as inconsistent as Xander when it comes to story vs supports. People like to ignore his serious flaws because he isn't on the side of "teh evulz". Going AWOL from Hoshido, when he should lead it? Letting naive Corrin, whom they barely know, lead the armies despite Corrin being from antagonistic Nohr? Corrin doesn't even have the excuse of being put in charge like he was in Conquest! Ryoma is the crown prince! Or threatening to let Elise die, despite supposedly being one of the most compassionate people in Hoshido? This guy is a serious hot-head compared to his support self, kind of like Xander. I'd cut him some slack if I didn't see rampant double-standards in these forums.)

7. Camilla

8. Who?

 

I realize that I may have opened a can of gigantic worms. #Sorrynotsorry.

[NekoKnight]

3 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

6. Ryoma. (Ryoma is just as inconsistent as Xander when it comes to story vs supports. People like to ignore his serious flaws because he isn't on the side of "teh evulz". Going AWOL from Hoshido, when he should lead it? Letting naive Corrin, whom they barely know, lead the armies despite Corrin being from antagonistic Nohr? Corrin doesn't even have the excuse of being put in charge like he was in Conquest! Ryoma is the crown prince! Or threatening to let Elise die, despite supposedly being one of the most compassionate people in Hoshido? This guy is a serious hot-head compared to his support self, kind of like Xander. I'd cut him some slack if I didn't see rampant double-standards in these forums.)

1. You could headcanon that he was trying to disrupt Nohr from the inside but not telling anyone where he was going and leaving the defense of his homeland to Yukimura was not very princely of him.
2. While Corrin being in charge was dumb, that's really more of a problem of the story as a whole than Ryoma. NO ONE questions Corrin's defacto leadership.
3. I won't write much about this because it's been done to death but Ryoma had no moral obligation to help out Elise. She's the princess of an enemy nation and actively assisting in the conquest of Hoshido. Ryoma's offer was pretty merciful, all things considered.

[Azure Sen]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

1. You could headcanon that he was trying to disrupt Nohr from the inside but not telling anyone where he was going and leaving the defense of his homeland to Yukimura was not very princely of him.

He did tell someone where he was going, it's just that Kagero got captured on her way to relay that information to his siblings. To quote the woman herself: "I was given the order to return to Hoshido and report this information... But I was careless while traveling through Mokushu and ended up being caught." And Hinoka, Kamui and Sakura are the ones who left the defense of Hoshido to Yukimura, not him, when they left the country to find him.

1 hour ago, Slyfox said:

Going AWOL from Hoshido, when he should lead it?

He wasn't really going AWOL, he was going to secure a potential ally in the conflict against Nohr and had every intention of letting everyone know what he was up to.

1 hour ago, Slyfox said:

Letting naive Corrin, whom they barely know, lead the armies despite Corrin being from antagonistic Nohr? Corrin doesn't even have the excuse of being put in charge like he was in Conquest!

This is a bad case of gameplay and story not matching up, because in the story Ryoma is still pretty clearly the one in charge of the army once he rejoins them. Ryoma does ask for Kamui's opinion a couple of times once Ryoma returns, but by that point Kamui has both proven himself trustworthy and more than cut his teeth on leadership. (Plus, before Ryoma comes back, it's Takumi, Hinoka and Sakura who put Kamui in charge, not Ryoma.)

1 hour ago, Slyfox said:

Or threatening to let Elise die, despite supposedly being one of the most compassionate people in Hoshido?

Why, its almost like Elise is an enemy combatant that he has no moral obligation to help and that compassion towards one's family and one's subjects does not mean said compassion will be extended to an enemy who is participating in a war of aggression that has already claimed the lives of who knows how many Hoshidan innocents. (Plus, Hinoka is the one that's supposed to be super-compassionate.) 

Edited March 1, 2017 by AzureSen

[Slyfox]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

2. While Corrin being in charge was dumb, that's really more of a problem of the story as a whole than Ryoma. NO ONE questions Corrin's defacto leadership.

3. I won't write much about this because it's been done to death but Ryoma had no moral obligation to help out Elise. She's the princess of an enemy nation and actively assisting in the conquest of Hoshido. Ryoma's offer was pretty merciful, all things considered.

2. True, but Ryoma doesn't have a certain King Garon to prevent him from leading the armies. Ryoma is the king in all but name in Birthright.

3. I wouldn't have brought it up if it weren't for the fact that our protagonists actively help Hoshido at least twice in Conquest, stupid as it may have been. Mokushu, where they release Kagero, and Izumo, where they save the royals from execution. Ryoma never shows this kindness to his enemies in both Conquest and Birthright, while Xander ultimately does in Conquest. It's a mark against Ryoma's supposedly established character.

 

@AzureSen, in regards to Kagero, the opposite of what Ryoma did would have been appropriate. Sending his people to Cheve while he goes back to Hoshido seems like a smart plan to me. Not to mention, trusting only one person to convey information of such import is asking for trouble.

Also, Hinoka has so little presence that it's hard to argue for or against her.

 

I'm not trying to justify Nohr, most of what they did was quite terrible, but I just get the feeling that such hate is blinding everyone to the faults that the Hoshidans have. Team Nohr makes Team Hoshido look like the perfect heroes, but Team Hoshido actually are not. They have idiots as well, Ryoma being a prominent one.

[NekoKnight]

23 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

He did tell someone where he was going, it's just that Kagero got captured on her way to relay that information to his siblings. To quote the woman herself: "I was given the order to return to Hoshido and report this information... But I was careless while traveling through Mokushu and ended up being caught." And Hinoka, Kamui and Sakura are the ones who left the defense of Hoshido to Yukimura, not him, when they left the country to find him.

Fair enough, although I still think he ought to have stayed in Hoshido. If Conquest is any indication, Cheve by itself isn't so powerful an ally that they needed them more than Ryoma's active leadership.

6 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

3. I wouldn't have brought it up if it weren't for the fact that our protagonists actively help Hoshido at least twice in Conquest, stupid as it may have been. Mokushu, where they release Kagero, and Izumo, where they save the royals from execution. Ryoma never shows this kindness to his enemies in both Conquest and Birthright, while Xander ultimately does in Conquest. It's a mark against Ryoma's supposedly established character.

"Stupid as it may have been" is exactly the point. The Nohrians had no reason to rescue the Hoshidans in Conquest and it was actually contrary to their goals. There is " not being needlessly dickish to your enemies" and then there is "helping your enemies". The former is nobility, the latter is stupidity. You might compare these examples to say the Nohrians are sometimes honorable and the Hoshidans are sometimes cruel, but that's a trick of the narrative. Ryoma acted as he should have (in that situation) whereas the Nohrians were nonsensical in their "compassion".