Siblings, Nohr vs Hoshido

[tacticianwhite]

2 hours ago, AzureSen said:

This is fanon. There is no evidence in-game that any of the Nohrian siblings had to kill any other potential siblings. In fact, most of what people circulate about the so-called "concubine wars" is fanon. 

Have you read any of the supports? The Camilla x Niles and Leo x Elise state that the concubines used their children as bait and pawns, at the least.

Edited February 26, 2017 by spiderbrush

[Azure Sen]

12 minutes ago, spiderbrush said:

Have you read any of the supports? The Camilla x Niles and Leon x Elise state that the concubines used their children as bait and pawns, at the least.

I'm aware. I was just saying that a lot of the things that people treat as true about the concubine wars--like the fact that the siblings in general and Camilla in particular had to kill their other half-siblings, or that they were responsible for their mothers' deaths, or that Xander was even involved at all--is fanon.

Edited February 26, 2017 by AzureSen

[Thane]

19 minutes ago, spiderbrush said:

Have you read any of the supports? The Camilla x Niles and Leon x Elise state that the concubines used their children as bait and pawns, at the least.

"Used as pawns" does not equal "sibling slaughter". 

Here are the lines from Camilla and Niles:
 

Spoiler

Camilla: I know what you thought! She's royalty! She must be happy! Her life is perfect! You're wrong! I wasn't born in the slums, but my childhood wasn't all roses either.

Niles: What?

Camilla: Oh. Didn't you know? Xander is the only one of my siblings born to the queen. The rest of us—Leo, Elise, and I—we're all children of King Garon's mistresses. Different mistresses, I might add. He loved to pit our mothers against each other.

Niles: I had no idea.

Camilla: Our mothers were the lowest of the low, trying to claw their way to a better status. Naturally, they used us as bait in all of their conflicts.

Niles: Lady Camilla, I'm—

Camilla: You said I was pathetic, and you were right! My mother loved me, but only as a pawn. Do I dote on Avatar? Yes, I do! I remember what it feels like to be alone!

And here's Leo and Elise's conversation:

Spoiler

B

Elise: Heehee! OUR Father? A ladie's man?! It's not possible.

Leo: I know it's hard to believe now, but he was known as an incredibly charismatic leader. Unfortunately, this charisma inspired much chaos among his suitors. There were so many vying for his favor that they frequently turned to violence. Some even turned on members of their own family.

Elise: What?! How could someone do something like that to their own family?

Leo: I suppose they lost of their self-control in their effect to rise in position. I agree, it certainly does not speak well of their character.

A

Elise: Well, I was just wondering... Do you think that we'll always get along? Not just you and me, but Xander and Camilla and Avatar too!

Leo: Hm? Where's this coming from?

Elise: I was just thinking about your story the other day. You said Father's suitors fought with their own family members... Couldn't the same thing happen to us? We have different mothers, after all...

Leo: That we do. And yes, our mothers were not exactly... well, they weren't the friendliest.Before you were born, the situation was awful, even within the royal family. My mother used me as a tool to win favor in the court.

Elise: Leo...

Leo: It's fine. I never loved her. In all fairness, she never loved me either. I was merely an instrument to her-a lever to pull to adjust the scales of power.

Elise: I see... I...I think I know how you feel. All my mother cared about was Father. Even when she was dying, she only called out for Father. Not me.

It's sad and hints at a much more interesting backstory than what Fates offers, but there's zero proof to support any theories of fratricide. In fact, it's all so incredibly vague that it really loses a lot of its meaning; concrete examples could've helped flesh this out.
 

20 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

So what if it gets used to bash Ryoma and Hoshido?

It's funny how you get so worked up over that but don't bother to reply about the rest of what AzureSen wrote.

If you want, you can send me a PM and we can discuss this at length.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Thane

[RedEyedDrake]

@brush:

Actually, it comes from the Japanese supports between Leo and Elise talking about siblings killing siblings (the English version tones it down to just "fighting your family" because el-oh-el moral guardians) plus the fact that Camilla is the eldest of the three members of the Nohrian quartet to be born of a woman other than Katerina. The rest is just about how "our mothers used us as tools" and what not. And as AzureSen said, those aren't actual evidence of bloodshed, not helped by the fact the one of those sources is an uncharacteristically placed info dump.

@Thane:

Why would I respond to the remainder of that post by AzureSen? He isn't conversing with me in that part.

 

Edited February 26, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Augestein]

Not sure. Xander and Ryoma are kinda meh. Leo and Takumi are both pretty good. Camilla and Hinoka really don't do much to stand out. Elise does more than Sakura so I guess she's a bit better. 

Nohrians I guess. 

[Thane]

19 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

@Thane:

Why would I respond to the remainder of that post by AzureSen? He isn't conversing with me in that part.

 

I apologize, I mistook you for your avatars.

[Nanima]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

It's sad and hints at a much more interesting backstory than what Fates offers, but there's zero proof to support any theories of fratricide. In fact, it's all so incredibly vague that it really loses a lot of its meaning; concrete examples could've helped flesh this out.
 

It's funny how you get so worked up over that but don't bother to reply about the rest of what AzureSen wrote.

If you want, you can send me a PM and we can discuss this at length.

You are using the lines from the English localization, which I agree do not directly state anything about the children killing each other or the main siblings full involvement. But the Japanese version is much more direct. In fact, Leo and Elise's support contains direct referance to killing:

Spoiler

[Speaking:]Leon
He was the country's king, so of course he was popular.
That alone gave him considerable charm.▾
[Portrait:] Default,
… However, because of that, whenever father's back was turned, the women would fight each other fiercely。▾
I have heard stories of their children killing each other, because the mother's were on bad terms.

Whether Marx or Camilla ever killed any of their siblings is never stated directly though as far as I can tell.

Edit: beaten.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Nanima

[Thane]

Just now, Nanima said:

You are using the lines from the English localization, which I agree do not directly state anything about the children killing each other or the main siblings full involvement. But the Japanese version is much more direct. In fact, Leo and Elise's support contains direct referance to killing:

  Hide contents

[Speaking:]Leon
He was the countries king, so of course he was.
That alone gave him considerable charm.▾
[Portrait:] Default,
… However, because of that, whenever father's back was turned, the women would fight each other fiercely。▾
I have heard stories of their children killing each other, because the mother's were on bad terms.

Whether Marx or Camilla ever killed any of their siblings is never stated directly though as far as I can tell.

That's awesome; I never remember reading that. Still, like you said, there's no proof of the Nohrian siblings being involved with this, and Leo is going off of a rumor.

[Nanima]

2 minutes ago, Thane said:

That's awesome; I never remember reading that. Still, like you said, there's no proof of the Nohrian siblings being involved with this, and Leo is going off of a rumor.

I still wouldn't dismiss Leo's comment, just because he says "I heard stories". He was likely too young to fully remember everything that happened, but if he thought it was entirely baseless I doubt he would mention it to Elise. Really everything we hear about the story makes it safe to assume there was fratricide going on. Especially with how Camilla keeps empathizing that the concubines used their children as tools in their conflicts. I doubt the unseen Nohrsibs are all playing on a farm somewhere... 

[Thane]

Just now, Nanima said:

I still wouldn't dismiss Leo's comment, just because he says "I heard stories". He was likely too young to fully remember everything that happened, but if he thought it was entirely baseless I doubt he would mention it to Elise. Really everything we hear about the story makes it safe to assume there was fratricide going on. Especially with how Camilla keeps empathizing that the concubines used their children as tools in their conflicts. I doubt the unseen Nohrsibs are all playing on a farm somewhere... 

Oh no, I quite agree with you in the light of the snippet you just presented. It's always been clear that the Nohrian siblings had rather shitty childhoods, but I don't think this means you can start accepting it as canon that Camilla in particular was forced to kill a bunch of her siblings.

[RedEyedDrake]

I'd argue that if one is to only stick to the information that was blatantly spelled out than Fates would be even worse off for it. And nobody really wants that. Besides, there is nothing wrong with trying to apply at least some real world, human, "what would make sense in this sort of scenario" or "is there any pattern to these things" type of logic to a situation presented in a video game.

Edited February 26, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Sunwoo]

Fates fandom: continues to prove that "alternative facts" were a thing before the term was officially coined.

One reason neither side can seem to ever come to an agreement on anything is because neither side can't even seem to agree on what are basic facts. I'd like to say both sides are equally guilty of twisting facts, but ... I find that in my experience and the places I look through it's not true. There's definitely one side that's guiltier of using "alternative facts" to argue their point.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Sunwoo

[Res]

Takumi and Sakura are my favourite siblings, so this was an easy decision to make. They're certainly the most relatable of the siblings for me.

[Loki Laufeyson]

10 hours ago, joshcja said:

No contest. Nhorian scum life.

Same. I just dont have anything against the Hoshidans. I just simply prefer the Nohr siblings more. Both little sister characters and big brother characters elicit similar feelings from me, however. Since i like Leo more as a middle brother, i lean more Nohr.

[NekoKnight]

Support!Xander = Top bloke, the best of all the siblings. Story!Xander = Irredeemable wanker, worst Camus
Ryoma = Pretty boring, best served with butter
Camilla = Good concept as a character but underdeveloped outside of her tits
Hinoka = Literally who?
Leo = Blarth, Bookbro, quality "middle child syndrome" writing
Takumi = Not worthy of blame, the most reasonable reaction to Corrin, despite going insane
Elise: Smartest sibling in Birthright, but generally tastes like diabetes.
Sakura: Quiet strength and all that but s-s-stuttering wallflower is a tired character archetype

So, um, I guess they are equal. Like the rest of the cast in their respective games, the Hoshido characters are generally more boring but they aren't as offensively awful people as the Nohrian characters. Among them, I'd rate Support!Xander, Leo and Takumi the best written. Camilla is my favorite character for headcanon because that concubine war stuff sounds interesting.

[SniperGYS]

Why do I choose a side when I can choose both?

Even if I'm not an actual fan of Xander, I choose both sides! Better have all 8 siblings than only 4

[Altrosa]

Hoshido. The Nohrians may be loving, but they all scare me or annoy me. 

I'd rather hang with the self-righteous Hoshidans.

And I thought the Concubine Wars was expanded upon in the drama CDs?

[DragonFlames]

11 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Nohr has, in full, killed their father at what was supposed to be peace talks, abducted their sibling, raised said sibling to use as a living weapon to assassinate their step-mother, killed said step-mother and countless innocent Hoshidan citizens using said abducted sibling, and has been launching attacks against civilians with magical abominations for around a decade, and that's just before the war actually starts. I'm sick of this double standard BS where the Hoshidan siblings are treated like monsters because they dare to treat Nohr with contempt and suspicion, despite the fact that they have very good reason to even before Garon outright declares war on them, while the Nohr siblings get much less flak for their objectively worse behavior.

I never defended the Nohrian siblings, either. In fact, I think I have said that, with the exception of Sakura and Elise, I dislike all of the Royals. It's just that I dislike the Hoshidan siblings more because of reasons I have stated.

It may just be the German translation of the game, but this 'rightful contempt and suspicion' (a point which I can even agree with) comes across as nothing more than self-righteous arrogance: 'We are better than you', which, again, is some incredibly high level of racism, if not the very definition of racism, not unlike what was present in medieval Christianity (specifically the Crusades), the era of imperialism (specifically slavery) and of course Nazi Germany (which my family actually was affected by).

Again, it might just be a translation thing, but that's what it feels like.

Bolded: That was Anankos, not Nohr. It just so happened that Garon gave Corrin the Ganglari, but as we later find out, Garon was a pawn of the Silent Dragon, so Nohr doesn't have anything to do with that.

[Azure Sen]

Just now, DragonFlames said:

I never defended the Nohrian siblings, either. In fact, I think I have said that, with the exception of Sakura and Elise, I dislike all of the Royals. It's just that I dislike the Hoshidan siblings more because of reasons I have stated.

It may just be the German translation of the game, but this 'rightful contempt and suspicion' (a point which I can even agree with) comes across as nothing more than self-righteous arrogance: 'We are better than you', which, again, is some incredibly high level of racism, if not the very definition of racism, not unlike what was present in medieval Christianity (specifically the Crusades), the era of imperialism (specifically slavery) and of course Nazi Germany (which my family actually was affected by).

Again, it might just be a translation thing, but that's what it feels like.

Bolded: That was Anankos, not Nohr. It just so happened that Garon gave Corrin the Ganglari, but as we later find out, Garon was a pawn of the Silent Dragon, so Nohr doesn't have anything to do with that.

Yeah, that's fair. Sorry if I got a bit aggressive, that was just something I needed to get of my chest.

The problem is, a lot of Hoshido's more aggressive comments towards Nohr are a creation of the translation, at least in the English version, and I don't know if the German translation is based on that; in the original Japanese, they were nowhere near as aggressive or hostile towards Nohr, and the whole "Nohrian scum" thing associated with Takumi (even though he never says that, Hinoka does) was invented whole-cloth by Treehouse in a majorly failed attempt to add moral ambiguity where it did not exist.  

Bolded: The Hoshido siblings have no way of knowing that, though.

[makuroh]

Well Leo is pretty cool and Takumi and Sakura are the only ones with actual character development, everyone else is badly written (Xander, Camilla) boring (Ryouma, Elise) or it shouldn't exist at all (Hinoka).

So Hoshido I guess?

[DragonFlames]

35 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Yeah, that's fair. Sorry if I got a bit aggressive, that was just something I needed to get of my chest.

The problem is, a lot of Hoshido's more aggressive comments towards Nohr are a creation of the translation, at least in the English version, and I don't know if the German translation is based on that; in the original Japanese, they were nowhere near as aggressive or hostile towards Nohr, and the whole "Nohrian scum" thing associated with Takumi (even though he never says that, Hinoka does) was invented whole-cloth by Treehouse in a majorly failed attempt to add moral ambiguity where it did not exist.  

Bolded: The Hoshido siblings have no way of knowing that, though.

Hey, no problem. We all need to vent sometimes. No harm done.

I believe the German translation is based on the (European) English one, at least with Awakening and Fates. Leo for example is very fond of saying 'Iago and Hans' when it should be 'Iago und Hans' to the point where me and my friends have started to joke about it being a speech quirk of his.

Since I haven't played the Japanese version and don't know enough Japanese, I can't judge the characters by that version, but only what is given to me through translations. That's why my view on certain characters might be a little off.

I heard that Selena's Tsundere-ness for instance was severely upped for international releases and that she was much more low-key about it in the Japanese version.

Bolded: Good point. Now if ONLY there was SOMEONE who knew the truth... *looks at a certain revolting blue haired songstress who is so terrible a character that I pity her very talented voice actress for being wasted on such terribleness*

It's nice to have decent people to have discussions with on here. You only find that rarely on the internet, sadly.

Edited February 27, 2017 by DragonFlames

[Res]

34 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Yeah, that's fair. Sorry if I got a bit aggressive, that was just something I needed to get of my chest.

The problem is, a lot of Hoshido's more aggressive comments towards Nohr are a creation of the translation, at least in the English version, and I don't know if the German translation is based on that; in the original Japanese, they were nowhere near as aggressive or hostile towards Nohr, and the whole "Nohrian scum" thing associated with Takumi (even though he never says that, Hinoka does) was invented whole-cloth by Treehouse in a majorly failed attempt to add moral ambiguity where it did not exist.  

Bolded: The Hoshido siblings have no way of knowing that, though.

I played through the games making a note of everyone who said Nohrian Scum because I also didn't recall Takumi saying it - but he does, once (I forget where. Maybe halfway through Conquest?) However, it's definitely a Hinoka catchphrase first and foremost (it's also uttered by a few other characters).

[Sunwoo]

Takumi definitely uses it at least once in Conquest, the instance I recall being in chapter 12 when he yells at Corrin to shut up. I think Hinoka may say it more than he does, though.

[Mackc2]

Honestly of all the eight siblings Leo is probably the only one I actually like, I couldn't care less about Takumi, Xander and Sakura but the rest I dislike, then there is Camilla who is at the sacrifice to takumi in recruitment chapter level of hate 

[Hagakure]

5 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I never defended the Nohrian siblings, either. In fact, I think I have said that, with the exception of Sakura and Elise, I dislike all of the Royals. It's just that I dislike the Hoshidan siblings more because of reasons I have stated.

It may just be the German translation of the game, but this 'rightful contempt and suspicion' (a point which I can even agree with) comes across as nothing more than self-righteous arrogance: 'We are better than you', which, again, is some incredibly high level of racism, if not the very definition of racism, not unlike what was present in medieval Christianity (specifically the Crusades), the era of imperialism (specifically slavery) and of course Nazi Germany (which my family actually was affected by).

Again, it might just be a translation thing, but that's what it feels like.

Bolded: That was Anankos, not Nohr. It just so happened that Garon gave Corrin the Ganglari, but as we later find out, Garon was a pawn of the Silent Dragon, so Nohr doesn't have anything to do with that.

I mean, the hatred of Nohr and the hatred of jews are two entirely different situations. I get what you're saying and it bothered me too, I just didn't find Nazi Germany to be a good analogy.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Hagakure