Siblings, Nohr vs Hoshido

[Sunwoo]

Chapter 18 of Conquest especially makes no sense. The war would end faster and with less bloodshed if the four Hoshidan royals were killed or captured then, but no. Corrin and Xander have to do the "honorable" thing and free them, which prolongs the war and makes more people die as a result. Also, the Nohrian siblings killed a lot of their own people in chapter 18, too, trying to save the Hoshidans. That's not really nobility, that's dumb and selfish. Oh sure, prolong the war and kill more people just so you can feel "good" about it.

[RedEyedDrake]

If you're talking purely in terms of "profit" then it also "makes no sense" for Corrin, Camilla and Elise to let either Hinoka and/or Takumi escape at the end of chapters 10 and 11 of Conquest either. And yet they do. Now think about it. What sense is there in letting the leaders of the enemy kingdom live in a war scenario? Now do you get it?

Edited March 2, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Rapier]

The Hoshidan siblings, by a slight margin. I think the only Hoshido sibling that I could really sympathize with was Sakura for her willpower and determination. She's also surprisingly mature and understanding, despite her age. Ryoma comes next, but unfortunately we see little of him and he's a worse leader than even Chrom, although he's a cool if omiss big brother. Hinoka could be a very likable character if she wasn't so bland and underdevelopped. Takumi is an asshole and no amount of psychological issues make his attitude justifiable.

Xander is a bad character but a good sibling, standing up for Corrin as soon as Ryoma attacked them. Leo is all that Xander and Takumi should've been, devoted but not willing to throw his morals and principles away, smug but not assholish to his peers almost every time he opens his mouth. Camilla is an one dimensional, obsessive character. Elise is... a little sister, and her only redeeming quality is being cute, which doesn't mean anything. 

Spoiler

But Aqua wins as the best cousin and waifu.

 

[Sunwoo]

19 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

If you're talking purely in terms of "profit" then "makes no sense" that Corrin, Camilla and Elise would let either Hinoka and/or Takumi escape at the end of chapters 10 and 11 of Conquest either. And yet they do. Now think about it. What sense is there in letting the leaders of the enemy kingdom live in a war scenario? Now do you get it?

Because they're stupid.

[Slyfox]

40 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Chapter 18 of Conquest especially makes no sense. The war would end faster and with less bloodshed if the four Hoshidan royals were killed or captured then, but no. Corrin and Xander have to do the "honorable" thing and free them, which prolongs the war and makes more people die as a result. Also, the Nohrian siblings killed a lot of their own people in chapter 18, too, trying to save the Hoshidans. That's not really nobility, that's dumb and selfish. Oh sure, prolong the war and kill more people just so you can feel "good" about it.

I'm not arguing this point. There is no denying that this was one of the dumbest things we've seen in Fates. Although, the only reason we don't see this happen as often in Birthright is because the Nohrian royal family actually are open to discussion, which in turn means that three out of four siblings are convinced, with a fourth one performing suicide by cop, which he intended to do alone.

And regardless of the terrible outcome of letting the Hoshidan siblings go in chapter 18, they very act of saving them is noble. Read all of Ryoma's dialogue in Conquest, he's almost as bad as Takumi, and he isn't even brainwashed.

 

[Sunwoo]

14 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

I'm not arguing this point. There is no denying that this was one of the dumbest things we've seen in Fates. Although, the only reason we don't see this happen as often in Birthright is because the Nohrian royal family actually are open to discussion, which in turn means that three out of four siblings are convinced, with a fourth one performing suicide by cop, which he intended to do alone.

And regardless of the terrible outcome of letting the Hoshidan siblings go in chapter 18, they very act of saving them is noble. Read all of Ryoma's dialogue in Conquest, he's almost as bad as Takumi, and he isn't even brainwashed.

The Nohrian siblings are likely more open to discussion because it is their country that started the war. Hoshido can't stop fighting because they didn't start it. If Garon wants the complete and total destruction or takeover of Hoshido, then Hoshido has nothing to offer Nohr to get the war to stop. Nohr started the fighting, so they are the ones in a better position to stop the fighting.

Also, the act of saving the Hoshidan siblings in chapter 18 is stupid. It's not noble, because that "noble" action leads to the deaths of two of the siblings, Takumi being completely controlled by Anankos, and the deaths of soldiers and civilians who would've otherwise lived had the war ended in chapter 18. Also, I have read Ryouma's dialogue in Conquest. What, you think I argue against something without knowing the full picture of it? Ryouma's father was killed because of Nohr. And then his step-sibling whom he cared for greatly was kidnapped by Nohr. And then, years later, his stepmother is killed by Nohr. To add insult to injury, the step-sibling who'd returned to them decides to go back to Nohr, a country that has greatly shit upon him and his country. In the Conquest path, why should Ryouma have any good feelings toward Nohr? This is the country that only takes and takes from his country, until it takes his and his brother's lives, too. The Nohrian siblings aren't victims in Conquest. They are part of the problem, and the Hoshidans have every right to be pissed at Nohr at this point.

[RedEyedDrake]

...My apologies, Sunwoo. I don't know what I was expecting there or why I bothered to begin with.

Edited March 1, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Rapier]

35 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, the act of saving the Hoshidan siblings in chapter 18 is stupid. It's not noble, because that "noble" action leads to the deaths of two of the siblings, Takumi being completely controlled by Anankos, and the deaths of soldiers and civilians who would've otherwise lived had the war ended in chapter 18.

Those results don't actually prove that action wasn't noble. They were given a fighting chance, which is better than becoming Garon's prisoners or receiving a worse outcome, and those dying soldiers and civilians actually got the chance to fight and defend their homeland, which is better than losing and submitting to the will of a tyrant without a fight (or worse. Remember Cheve).

As for it being stupid, I can't object to that, although I have to defend it as necessary (but very meta, I guess). How can you claim that it would be significantly better if the war had ended in chapter 18? There's nothing hinting that the Hoshidan royals wouldn't be executed by Garon, or that the masquerade would be revealed through Gooron stupidly sitting on the Hoshidan throne after the conquest of the capital, if they didn't give the Hoshidan siblings a reprieve. Taking into mind that Garon only comes to Hoshido during the invasion and Zola was ready to hand all the royals to him before the Nohrian royal army marched into the heart of Hoshido, there is no guarantee that he'd sit on the throne and fulfill the necessary requisites for his defeat. From an utilitarian perspective, the events that led to Gooron's defeat in the end of Conquest were necessary as the lesser of possible evils (from chapter 18 and onward, I mean. I'm not counting their past mistakes).

Edited March 1, 2017 by Rapier

[Azure Sen]

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Fair enough, although I still think he ought to have stayed in Hoshido. If Conquest is any indication, Cheve by itself isn't so powerful an ally that they needed them more than Ryoma's active leadership.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing that Ryoma shouldn't have stayed in Hoshido, but it is important to remember that he doesn't really have the luxury to not seek out additional help, given that Hoshido's pretty drastically outnumbered by Nohr. I don't think it's too far out of the realm of possibility that he would go himself to ensure a successful alliance, but that's also speculation on my part.

2 hours ago, Slyfox said:

3. I wouldn't have brought it up if it weren't for the fact that our protagonists actively help Hoshido at least twice in Conquest, stupid as it may have been. Mokushu, where they release Kagero, and Izumo, where they save the royals from execution. Ryoma never shows this kindness to his enemies in both Conquest and Birthright, while Xander ultimately does in Conquest. It's a mark against Ryoma's supposedly established character.

The thing is, though, is that Xander didn't do either of those things for the sake of the Hoshidans or out of the kindness of his heart, he did it because he felt they brought dishonor to Nohr. In Chapter 18, Xander even says "Hoshido may be our enemy, but to murder its royals while they are unarmed... I won't have us win the war this way. We will win with honor or die trying," which pretty clearly shows that the only problem he has with the whole situation is that the Hoshidan siblings can't fight back.

2 hours ago, Slyfox said:

I'm not trying to justify Nohr, most of what they did was quite terrible, but I just get the feeling that such hate is blinding everyone to the faults that the Hoshidans have. Team Nohr makes Team Hoshido look like the perfect heroes, but Team Hoshido actually are not. They have idiots as well, Ryoma being a prominent one.

Even if that was true (which it isn't, given posts from earlier in this thread criticizing Ryoma, and the amount of criticism I've seen for him in general), how does make Ryoma worse than Xander when considering all factors?

1 hour ago, Slyfox said:

I'm not arguing this point. There is no denying that this was one of the dumbest things we've seen in Fates. Although, the only reason we don't see this happen as often in Birthright is because the Nohrian royal family actually are open to discussion, which in turn means that three out of four siblings are convinced, with a fourth one performing suicide by cop, which he intended to do alone.

Or it could be because the Nohr siblings are never in any such situation during Birthright? 

Also, Xander didn't intend to do a suicide by cop until Elise interfered. He was planning to fight Kamui to the death before then, which is in stark contrast with Ryoma, who was planning to spare Kamui until the latter goaded him into fighting by claiming that he killed Hinoka.

1 hour ago, Slyfox said:

 Read all of Ryoma's dialogue in Conquest, he's almost as bad as Takumi, and he isn't even brainwashed.

I was going to comb through all of the relevant scripts like I did with the concubine wars, but instead I'm going to ask you to quote specific lines and or passages from Ryoma in Conquest that back up this claim.

41 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, the act of saving the Hoshidan siblings in chapter 18 is stupid. It's not noble, because that "noble" action leads to the deaths of two of the siblings, Takumi being completely controlled by Anankos, and the deaths of soldiers and civilians who would've otherwise lived had the war ended in chapter 18. 

It's not noble for a much more basic reason: Xander doesn't care about the Hoshidan siblings' lives at all; he thinks winning the war in such a manner will bring dishonor to Nohr, and he wants to give them the opportunity to go down in battle. There's nothing noble about saving someone's life just so you can have the chance to kill them yourself or so that they can die in the way that will bring the most honor to your side.

Edited March 1, 2017 by AzureSen

[Sunwoo]

31 minutes ago, Rapier said:

Those results don't actually prove that action wasn't noble. They were given a fighting chance, which is better than becoming Garon's prisoners or receiving a worse outcome, and those dying soldiers and civilians actually got the chance to fight and defend their homeland, which is better than losing and submitting to the will of a tyrant without a fight (or worse. Remember Cheve).

As for it being stupid, I can't object to that, although I have to defend it as necessary (but very meta, I guess). How can you claim that it would be significantly better if the war had ended in chapter 18? There's nothing hinting that the Hoshidan royals wouldn't be executed by Garon, or that the masquerade would be revealed through Gooron stupidly sitting on the Hoshidan throne after the conquest of the capital, if they didn't give the Hoshidan siblings a reprieve. Taking into mind that Garon only comes to Hoshido during the invasion and Zola was ready to hand all the royals to him before the Nohrian royal army marched into the heart of Hoshido, there is no guarantee that he'd sit on the throne and fulfill the necessary requisites for his defeat. From an utilitarian perspective, the events that led to Gooron's defeat in the end of Conquest were necessary as the lesser of possible evils (from chapter 18 and onward, I mean. I'm not counting their past mistakes).

Rapier this is why you get lynched in mafia all the time lol

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, Rapier said:

Those results don't actually prove that action wasn't noble. They were given a fighting chance, which is better than becoming Garon's prisoners or receiving a worse outcome, and those dying soldiers and civilians actually got the chance to fight and defend their homeland, which is better than losing and submitting to the will of a tyrant without a fight (or worse. Remember Cheve).

If dying in a futile attempt to defend their country is so great a privilege, they can keep fighting even after the Hoshidan royals are killed or captured. Not stopping the war in chapter 18, isn't "giving them a chance", Hoshido has no hope of winning the war unless Kamui magically saves the day so they're just pushing their eventual defeat back. Their options are "everyone dies in battle" or "maybe we'll be killed after we surrender".  You seem to think "everyone definitely dies" is the better option.

1 hour ago, Rapier said:

How can you claim that it would be significantly better if the war had ended in chapter 18? There's nothing hinting that the Hoshidan royals wouldn't be executed by Garon, or that the masquerade would be revealed through Gooron stupidly sitting on the Hoshidan throne after the conquest of the capital, if they didn't give the Hoshidan siblings a reprieve. Taking into mind that Garon only comes to Hoshido during the invasion and Zola was ready to hand all the royals to him before the Nohrian royal army marched into the heart of Hoshido, there is no guarantee that he'd sit on the throne and fulfill the necessary requisites for his defeat. From an utilitarian perspective, the events that led to Gooron's defeat in the end of Conquest were necessary as the lesser of possible evils (from chapter 18 and onward, I mean. I'm not counting their past mistakes).

Dude wat? The "lesser of possible evils" is "Hoshidans are captured but not killed. Hoshido surrenders immediately and Garon sits on the throne. Gooron is revealed and the Nohrians kill him." That golden ending, no matter how many other possible outcomes, is not possible if they let the royals go. Chapter 18 provides a wonderful controlled situation where Kamui has everything he needs to force Hoshido's capitulation. If the lives of his Hoshidan siblings matter to him, he can spirit them away from Garon, just like how he allowed Hinoka to escape in chapter 24. By letting them rejoin their soldiers, he loses control of the situation and the siblings (and countless other Hoshidans and Nohrians) are MORE likely to die. Your argument boils down to "Every contrived factor that was needed for Gooron to reveal himself came together somehow, and there are theoretically worse outcomes, therefor they made the best possible choice."

[DragonFlames]

You'd think that after saving them and sitting at the same table together, it would be time for some peacetalks or something... or the two armies joining up to kill Gooron. But NOPE, Azura has to be a cowardly B and value her own stinkin' life above her supposed 'loved ones' and she has the gall to threaten to kill Shura if he didn't speak up, something which SHE never does. If ANYONE can not be trusted, it's Azura. At least Iago, Hans and Garon are open about their 'lol, evulz' attitude.

That's why Arete is objectively better than Azura, because at least SHE friggin' spoke up about stuff (granted, she died in the process of doing so, but still. Props to her.).

Think about it, the whole Nohr V Hoshido stuff could have been prevented if Azura spoke up about the Vallite soldiers who killed Mikoto after Chapter 5. But she selfishly didn't decide to do it. In hindsight, Takumi was absolutely right in not allowing her to call him by name. We, as players should have had the option to kiss her ass goodbye right from the get-go (I am actually cheering for Dragon!Corrin to kill her during the cutscene after the battle agains the Vallites, that's how far it has gotten. I always imagine Corrin being like 'Shut the hell up with your stupid song you little--'.) We needed a 'You know what, Azura? Either you start to talk or I'll leave you here to rot' choice in Conquest's Chapter 9 or a 'I don't need you' dialogue option in Revelation would have been fine. And of course a 'talk or I'll kill you right now' option in Birthright where she yet again decides to keep quiet about crucial things.

Or, better yet, she, Valla and everything relating to them shouldn't have existed in the first effin' place. Fates' story would definitely been better off for it.

Luckily for me, the rabid Azura fans aren't anywhere near me or else I'd fear for my life right now.

One last thing about the 'Ryoma letting Elise die' thing and then I'll stop: It's not the act of him potentially letting Elise die to have Corrin rejoin Hoshido that bothers me so much but the fact that our 'favourite' lobster lord is actually stupid enough to think his bribing gambit would actually work. Well, lobsters aren't known for their high level of intelligence anyway.

Edited March 1, 2017 by DragonFlames

[Dragonage2ftw]

Nohr's siblings.

[Rapier]

13 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Rapier this is why you get lynched in mafia all the time lol

I thought it was because I tend to forget about the game and then I come back at the worst possible times

12 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

If dying in a futile attempt to defend their country is so great a privilege, they can keep fighting even after the Hoshidan royals are killed or captured. Not stopping the war in chapter 18, isn't "giving them a chance", Hoshido has no hope of winning the war unless Kamui magically saves the day so they're just pushing their eventual defeat back. Their options are "everyone dies in battle" or "maybe we'll be killed after we surrender".  You seem to think "everyone definitely dies" is the better option.

Dude wat? The "lesser of possible evils" is "Hoshidans are captured but not killed. Hoshido surrenders immediately and Garon sits on the throne. Gooron is revealed and the Nohrians kill him." That golden ending, no matter how many other possible outcomes, is not possible if they let the royals go. Chapter 18 provides a wonderful controlled situation where Kamui has everything he needs to force Hoshido's capitulation. If the lives of his Hoshidan siblings matter to him, he can spirit them away from Garon, just like how he allowed Hinoka to escape in chapter 24. By letting them rejoin their soldiers, he loses control of the situation and the siblings (and countless other Hoshidans and Nohrians) are MORE likely to die. Your argument boils down to "Every contrived factor that was needed for Gooron to reveal himself came together somehow, and there are theoretically worse outcomes, therefor they made the best possible choice."

It's not a privilege, it is a chance to defend your (and your loved one's) freedom and well being from a tyrant. For some, it is worth fighting and sacrificing your life for, no matter how grim their chances of success are. Simply handling Hoshido to Garon's rule in a silver plate would not solve their problems in long term. They also had a better fighting chance with the royals leading and providing with their skills than without them, and I doubt a demoralized army could muster enough strength and manpower to fight. The outcome wasn't yet as decided as you claim because Hoshido's top soldiers were still alive and protecting their homeland from strategic positions. There was still a chance, albeit slim. It's like arguing that they should've given up to Sauron's forces on Lord of the Rings simply because they outmatched the protagonists, as if the long term consequences for that were not also unacceptable.

What guarantee do you have that Garon would sit in the throne if it went like that? Garon was only near and overseeing the march to the heart of Hoshido because of the invasion. Without chapter 18 going as it went, there would be no invasion because Hoshido would be subdued without further need for battle or marching through the royals' capture or execution. Garon would be miles away from the Hoshidan throne, in contrast to being at the capital's doorstep, with the Hoshidan throne and palace conveniently near his grasp. That happenstance would not have occured.

[SpearOfLies]

Ryouma successed as samurai but fail as king.

[NekoKnight]

48 minutes ago, Rapier said:

It's like arguing that they should've given up to Sauron's forces on Lord of the Rings simply because they outmatched the protagonists, as if the long term consequences for that were not also unacceptable.

The topic here isn't "how should the Hoshidans feel about surrendering to a tyrant", it's "was it a good decision to not end the war sooner by Kamui's agency". Everyone who serves under Sauron is evil and planning to enslave or murder the people they conquer. The Nohrians we control, however, don't intend to do that, and they could prevent a lot of negative consequences of the Hoshido's defeat if the war is ended sooner.

48 minutes ago, Rapier said:

What guarantee do you have that Garon would sit in the throne if it went like that? Garon was only near and overseeing the march to the heart of Hoshido because of the invasion. Without chapter 18 going as it went, there would be no invasion because Hoshido would be subdued without further need for battle or marching through the royals' capture or execution. Garon would be miles away from the Hoshidan throne, in contrast to being at the capital's doorstep, with the Hoshidan throne and palace conveniently near his grasp. That happenstance would not have occured.

The plan was always highly improbable. You're saying that "Because this highly improbable plan worked, it must have been a good plan (instead of bad writing)". The logic the game wants us to swallow is that Garon is deadset on sitting on that chair for some reason. If we are to be consistent with this (stupid) logic, he would have done so even if the war ended sooner. Nothing suggests Garon only went to Hoshido because the war lasted longer.

I can't disprove the limitless possibilities of things that could have gone worse had the war ended sooner. It's up to you provide evidence of said possibilities happening.

Edited March 1, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Altrosa]

Azura had to stay alive as she was the only living person able to sing the Anankos calming song. She couldn't completely reveal Valla until after that, but she dies while singing before she can in both Birthright and Conquest.

There is also the simple fact that attempting to explain Valla to anyone was constituted as the ravings of a madman. Was Azura really going to get far trying to rapidly explain that she's the lost princess of an underground kingdom that you can only get to via lake magic or cliff-diving that been taken over by a dragon driven mad by old age who murdered her dad and is now using Garon as a pawn to make the kingdoms war becuase he hates people for being afraid of him? Also don't repeat any of this because you'll turn to mist okay bye *melts*

 

Like, really.  

 

Azura wasn't selfish. She just knew she was more useful alive than she was dead!

 

[SpearOfLies]

28 minutes ago, Altrosa said:

Azura had to stay alive as she was the only living person able to sing the Anankos calming song. She couldn't completely reveal Valla until after that, but she dies while singing before she can in both Birthright and Conquest.

There is also the simple fact that attempting to explain Valla to anyone was constituted as the ravings of a madman. Was Azura really going to get far trying to rapidly explain that she's the lost princess of an underground kingdom that you can only get to via lake magic or cliff-diving that been taken over by a dragon driven mad by old age who murdered her dad and is now using Garon as a pawn to make the kingdoms war becuase he hates people for being afraid of him? Also don't repeat any of this because you'll turn to mist okay bye *melts*

 

Like, really.  

 

Azura wasn't selfish. She just knew she was more useful alive than she was dead!

 

Convenient plot device who didn't really improve neither her character neither the plot.

[Altrosa]

45 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Convenient plot device who didn't really improve neither her character neither the plot.

I never said that.

Plot hole or not, I just frankly find the hate given to her for not commiting suicide to simply attempt to explain Valla to her allies in horrifically bad taste. Especially when she does sacrifice herself to give the armies a fighting chance against the Infested Takumi and Garon's dusk dragon form.

Especially, especially when other characters also that knew of Valla like Mikoto, Gunter, and Lilith get no such shaming. 

Yes, it's a plot contrivance to give Azura more screen time, but good lord. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Altrosa

[SpearOfLies]

5 minutes ago, Altrosa said:

I never said that.

Plot hole or not, I just frankly find the hate given to her for not commiting suicide to simply attempt to explain Valla to her allies in horrifically bad taste. Especially when she does sacrifice herself to give the armies a fighting chance against the Infested Takumi and Garon's dusk dragon form.

Especially when other characters that knew of Valla like Mikoto, Gunter, and Lilith get no such shaming. 

Yes, it's a plot contrivance to give Azura more screen time, but good lord. 

I don't hate her for not commiting suicide. I hate her for so much screen time for no reason. I can hardly say who ruin the plot more between Corrin and Azura.

[Azure Sen]

1 hour ago, Altrosa said:

Azura had to stay alive as she was the only living person able to sing the Anankos calming song. She couldn't completely reveal Valla until after that, but she dies while singing before she can in both Birthright and Conquest.

There is also the simple fact that attempting to explain Valla to anyone was constituted as the ravings of a madman. Was Azura really going to get far trying to rapidly explain that she's the lost princess of an underground kingdom that you can only get to via lake magic or cliff-diving that been taken over by a dragon driven mad by old age who murdered her dad and is now using Garon as a pawn to make the kingdoms war becuase he hates people for being afraid of him? Also don't repeat any of this because you'll turn to mist okay bye *melts*

A justification that fails in Conquest, because Azura had Kamui in Valla during Chapter 15 and could have easily explained everything to Kamui (and Gunter) then, but didn't because she didn't feel like it I guess, even though it was very much related to what was happening. I mean, from a Doylist perspective her not telling him about Valla makes perfect sense thanks to Revelation's big selling point being that you confront the one behind the war, but from a Watsonian perspective? It is a mystery.

Edited March 2, 2017 by AzureSen

[NekoKnight]

31 minutes ago, Altrosa said:

Plot hole or not, I just frankly find the hate given to her for not commiting suicide to simply attempt to explain Valla to her allies in horrifically bad taste. Especially when she does sacrifice herself to give the armies a fighting chance against the Infested Takumi and Garon's dusk dragon form.

I don't think anyone wanted her to kill herself via plot-curse, they wanted her to be more proactive in getting people to Valla where she could tell them without killing herself.

This is exactly what she and Kamui do when you play Revelation.

8 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

Motive (I'll put in a "usually" here, just in case) doesn't change whether an action is right or wrong. Elise was dying from an illness and unarmed. He forced Corrin into an impossible situation, considering the Nohrian army won't forgive such a betrayal easily. Nothing Ryoma does in this map is honorable.

Xander being bizarrely merciful doesn't obligate Ryoma to be (and that only happens later in Conquest, so it's not like Ryoma owes Nohr a favor). The Nohrians are the enemy of Hoshido so it's in Ryoma's interest that Elise die. Denying her access to medicine is appropriate for his goals, and he only offered to spare her because he wanted leverage on getting Kamui to rejoin Hoshido. Elise being sick and unarmed is irrelevant. Once she has recovered, she will rejoin the war effort.

Edited March 2, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Slyfox]

18 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, I have read Ryouma's dialogue in Conquest. What, you think I argue against something without knowing the full picture of it?

No, I just operate under the assumption that most of us do not have photographic memory. We tend to generalize things, remember only what we want or remember the gist of things, etc. No offense was intended. Many people here know their Fire Emblem much more than I do, but I'll still debate various points regardless. Also, often my memory isn't great, so I take frequent trips to the wiki and sometimes the games to refresh my memory when writing replies and such.

As for the rest of your post, again, my arguments are centered around Ryoma. We are starting to get off topic, as evidenced by many of the recent posts that showed up before I posted this one.

18 hours ago, AzureSen said:

The thing is, though, is that Xander didn't do either of those things for the sake of the Hoshidans or out of the kindness of his heart, he did it because he felt they brought dishonor to Nohr. In Chapter 18, Xander even says "Hoshido may be our enemy, but to murder its royals while they are unarmed... I won't have us win the war this way. We will win with honor or die trying," which pretty clearly shows that the only problem he has with the whole situation is that the Hoshidan siblings can't fight back.

Motive (I'll put in a "usually" here, just in case) doesn't change whether an action is right or wrong. Elise was dying from an illness and unarmed. He forced Corrin into an impossible situation, considering the Nohrian army won't forgive such a betrayal easily. Nothing Ryoma does in this map is honorable.

18 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Even if that was true (which it isn't, given posts from earlier in this thread criticizing Ryoma, and the amount of criticism I've seen for him in general), how does make Ryoma worse than Xander when considering all factors?

I actually think Ryoma is a better person than Xander. Which, to me, makes it all the more frustrating seeing Ryoma act the way he does in the story.

 

18 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Also, Xander didn't intend to do a suicide by cop until Elise interfered. He was planning to fight Kamui to the death before then, which is in stark contrast with Ryoma, who was planning to spare Kamui until the latter goaded him into fighting by claiming that he killed Hinoka.

I went through the chapter script for Ryoma and I did not find any evidence of this. He seemed pretty set on killing Corrin either way.

 

18 hours ago, AzureSen said:

I was going to comb through all of the relevant scripts like I did with the concubine wars, but instead I'm going to ask you to quote specific lines and or passages from Ryoma in Conquest that back up this claim.

Looking back at the scripts again a day later (chapters 6, 12, 18, 25 and endgame), it's clear he isn't on Takumi levels of hatred. Oops. I'll give you this one.

However, he still reads like a hotheaded version of Xander, no question about that. His unwillingness to try talking with Corrin on all occasions he met him/her before dying probably got to me in some way.

[Altrosa]

No, Spear, it wasn't you who made frankly unnerving comments.

 

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I don't think anyone wanted her to kill herself via plot-curse, they wanted her to be more proactive in getting people to Valla where she could tell them without killing herself.

This is exactly what she and Kamui do when you play Revelation.

That's a far more objectively fair argument. 

Azura had the stance that Valla was far too dangerous to try to get people to visit, and only took Corrin by choice when refusing to take a side meant everyone wanted them dead and they had no option but to try to hit the puppet-master verses bolstering one side over the other.

It's a major flaw in her character that she didn't have the confidence or fortitude to try take matters into her own hands and do this on her own, but I guess if she did, the Yato would've landed in her hand, instead.

 

 

After taking a moment, I realize I inadvertently fed the troll by getting heated over intentionally gross language, and made a bit of an ass of myself. For that, I apologize.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Altrosa

[Rapier]

On 01/03/2017 at 7:57 PM, NekoKnight said:

The topic here isn't "how should the Hoshidans feel about surrendering to a tyrant", it's "was it a good decision to not end the war sooner by Kamui's agency". Everyone who serves under Sauron is evil and planning to enslave or murder the people they conquer. The Nohrians we control, however, don't intend to do that, and they could prevent a lot of negative consequences of the Hoshido's defeat if the war is ended sooner.

The plan was always highly improbable. You're saying that "Because this highly improbable plan worked, it must have been a good plan (instead of bad writing)". The logic the game wants us to swallow is that Garon is deadset on sitting on that chair for some reason. If we are to be consistent with this (stupid) logic, he would have done so even if the war ended sooner. Nothing suggests Garon only went to Hoshido because the war lasted longer.

I can't disprove the limitless possibilities of things that could have gone worse had the war ended sooner. It's up to you provide evidence of said possibilities happening.

The Nohrians we control don't intend to do that, but that's not very reassuring since they abided by Garon's orders. Keeping them imprisoned would be the same as handling the royals to Garon, and god knows what could've been done to them because Gooron is almost literally our saturday morning Disney cartoon villain and Iago states that the only reason they kept Sakura alive was to use her as a hostage (for reasons the game doesn't explain because of bad writing, since they never use her to their advantage). In any case, whether it was a good decision or not wasn't the topic. Instead, whether it was noble to release the royals instead of ending the war and avoiding the loss of more lives was the topic (for that paragraph, at least). I think that giving your opponents a fighting chance to defend their freedom and lives fairly instead of being subjugated and opressed without one is noble, despite the losses. An action does not need to be smart to be noble, see Ned and Rob Stark. This, at least, is not bad writing.

By the way, the aforementioned Iago's dialogue with Corrin, from Chapter 23's script:

Spoiler

Avatar: Takumi...is leading Hoshido's core legion?

Iago: Yes. We received word of it from our scouts not too long ago.

Avatar: I see.

Iago: We already have Princess Sakura as a hostage, so no need to keep him alive. I'm sure you would prefer to spare him, but I doubt our dear king would agree...

EDIT (or PS): Found this while re-reading Conquest's script (Chapter 24). Garon would very likely not spare the royals from execution if they were imprisoned and delivered to him.

Spoiler

Xander: Hmm, so it would seem. This bodes well for us. Our army is large enough to surround the entire premises. We might be able to secure their surrender without raising a blade.

Iago: Oh, I'm afraid that won't do, Lord Xander.

Xander: Pardon?

Iago: This is our only chance to finally eliminate those pesky Hoshidan insects. They don't deserve the honor of a clean and quick surrender. Besides, so long as they live, those who follow them will never stop fighting. Now is the perfect opportunity for us to kill their royalty and stake our claim. For The glory of Nohr, every last one of the Hoshidan royals must die.

Xander: That's low even for you, Iago!

Iago: Oh? Well let's ask our king, shall we? King Garon! Your Majesty! What do you think of my plan? May I proceed?

Garon: Kill them all.

Iago: I thought you might say that. Thank you, my liege.

I didn't say it was a good plan, I said it was the best outcome from all possible evils. I said that without the invasion (ending the war there would also end the invasion) Garon wouldn't be close because he came explicitly to oversee their march toward the capital. Without Garon being close (and, as I said, at the capital's doorstep), he wouldn't have sat on the Hoshidan throne. Without sitting on the Hoshidan throne, Gooron would never have been exposed, and that leads to the worst outcome even if Hoshido were to surrender. Yes, it is possible that Hoshido surrenders, no royals are killed (unlikely, due to what Iago says and the Candle Wax Monster's past decisions) and Garon travels all the way from Nohr to the capital to sit in the throne (unlikely, for not being the point. The subjugation of Hoshido, instead, is the point), but how likely would it be for him to travel all the way from Krakenburg to the Hoshidan capital just for sitting in their throne? It is never stated that Garon literally wants to sit in the Hoshidan throne so much - he always put emphasis on subjugating Hoshido instead. Without the situation making it convenient for him to do so (and, again, not because of bad writing - it is not a stretch for a conqueror king to sit on the conquered country's throne, and it wasn't a stretch to send Garon to oversee the march toward the capital), I dare claim that this wouldn't have happened.

I can't prove it could've gone worse had the war ended sooner, just as you and anyone else probably can't prove it could've gone better had the war ended sooner. All we can do is speculate and point out evidence to back up the possibility that it could've been better or worse. The original position to which I objected was that it could've been better if they had maintained the Hoshidan royals captive because that's an objective claim in need of proof, and so far I haven't seen evidence that it could've been so. I've only responded speculation with further speculation. I think I should've demanded the burden of proof first before dirtying my hands, but I chose to join the fun. Now I'm honestly beginning to feel that our speculations aren't going to lead anywhere conclusive and no evidence will be solid enough to settle this.

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Rapier