Is SoV the Only FE Echoes game?

[Isaacgs459]

38 minutes ago, Mox said:

To be honest, I would love to see more remakes, especially Genealogy and Sacred Stones (Sacred Stones for dat Valter though).  But I suppose that the potential to get remakes depends on how well SoV does.  

Those two seem to be the ones most requested by people, or, if not Sacred Stones, the other two GBA.
Hmmm.... In general, if any of you were lead designer on future remakes of 4-8 [since we technically do have New Mystery], how would you go about remaking them? Introduce the complex skill system of other games to the GBA titles? New classes? Any changes to the maps/story?

[Slumber]

On 4/19/2017 at 5:34 PM, Isaacgs459 said:

Outside of Ephraim desert, quality design looking back.

Chapter 5x, 7, Eirika 11, Eirika 12, Eirika 13 and chapter 18 I wouldn't say are "quality". Those maps all have pretty big problems(5x's long stretches of nothing where you're just moving Ephraim down unpopulated hallways, 7's wasted space, 11's pointlessness and unnecessary mountain placements, 13's barrenness, and 18's annoying lava tiles that seem to exist just to be annoying). Definitely solid map design in that game, but it's not all roses.

Also, as for Yooka-Laylee vs. Horizon and The Legend of Zelda, those games got good reviews despite the technical problems(Plenty of reviews talked about BotW's framerate negatively), while Yooka-Laylee probably would have gotten the scores it did, even if it ran flawlessly.

In one case, they're explaining how good the games are, even with the framerate issues. The games are still games they wanted to play, and they were willing to put up with nagging issues like that. Yooka-Laylee, meanwhile, was a game a bunch of reviewers didn't enjoy playing, and framerate issues were just the shit icing on the shit cake(Channeling my inner Jim Lahey).

Edited April 21, 2017 by Slumber

[Isaacgs459]

3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Chapter 5x, 7, Eirika 11, Eirika 12, Eirika 13 and chapter 17 I wouldn't say are "quality". Those maps all have pretty big problems(5x's long stretches of nothing where you're just moving Ephraim down unpopulated hallways, 7's wasted space, 11's pointlessness and unnecessary mountain placements, 13's barrenness, and 17's annoying lava tiles that seem to exist just to be annoying). Definitely solid map design in that game, but it's not all roses.

Also, as for Yooka-Laylee vs. Horizon and The Legend of Zelda, those games got good reviews despite the technical problems(Plenty of reviews talked about BotW's framerate negatively), while Yooka-Laylee probably would have gotten the scores it did, even if it ran flawlessly.

In one case, they're explaining how good the games are, even with the framerate issues. The games are still games they wanted to play, and they were willing to put up with nagging issues like that. Yooka-Laylee, meanwhile, was a game a bunch of reviewers didn't enjoy playing, and framerate issues were just the shit icing on the shit cake(Channeling my inner Jim Lahey).

When are you navigating Ephraim down unpopulated hallways in 5x? I secede your point on 7, although the counter would be the introduction of the ballista that chapter. I am not a fan of Eirika's route as I am Ephraim's, but 11 doesn't have any mountains. Do you mean 12, Saleh's chapter? The lower three rows don't need to exist, but the narrow corridor you have to traverse with those spiders coming down at you from each side. 13 never felt barren with how many enemies swarm you. 17... just needed harder enemies and not a couple dozen eggs.
From what I've seen of Yooka-Laylee, it's a good game. It's major faults were it's a collect-a-thon with old style camera controls [the actual mechanic] and the framerates. It's no rebirth of a genre like Shovel Knight, but it's a step in the right direction. Echoes feels like it's gonna be much better than Yooka-Laylee too.

[Slumber]

3 minutes ago, Isaacgs459 said:

When are you navigating Ephraim down unpopulated hallways in 5x? I secede your point on 7, although the counter would be the introduction of the ballista that chapter. I am not a fan of Eirika's route as I am Ephraim's, but 11 doesn't have any mountains. Do you mean 12, Saleh's chapter? The lower three rows don't need to exist, but the narrow corridor you have to traverse with those spiders coming down at you from each side. 13 never felt barren with how many enemies swarm you. 17... just needed harder enemies and not a couple dozen eggs.
From what I've seen of Yooka-Laylee, it's a good game. It's major faults were it's a collect-a-thon with old style camera controls [the actual mechanic] and the framerates. It's no rebirth of a genre like Shovel Knight, but it's a step in the right direction. Echoes feels like it's gonna be much better than Yooka-Laylee too.

I might mean 12, yeah.

Like, all of 5x? The portion of the map between where Ephraim's group starts, and where the throne room it, is just a lot of empty space. And there's that whole right side of the map which doesn't get any use at all... I hate the map. It takes too long for what it tries to accomplish.

And 13 is just a flat landmass with no obstacles between you and the boss besides the number of enemies. It's just a gauntlet. You slam your units against the enemy's. It's not a very fun map in replays.

Seeing Yooka-Laylee and playing it are two different things. It just... isn't fun to play past the first two or three worlds.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Slumber

[Isaacgs459]

Just now, Slumber said:

I might mean 12, yeah.

Like, all of 5x? The portion of the map between where Ephraim's group starts, and where the throne room it, is just a lot of empty space. And there's that whole right side of the map which doesn't get any use at all... I hate the map. It takes too long for what it tries to accomplish.

And 13 is just a flat landmass with no obstacles between you and the boss. It's just a gauntlet. You slam your units against the enemy's. It's not a very fun map in replays.

I usually try to one turn chapter 13, so it's not too fresh on my mind. The reason I think it's acceptable is it changed the way you played the chapter in a unique way; survive the onslaught from all sides and wait for Cormag.

Or not realize Cormag shows up in that chapter and skip it like me >>

[Mox]

5 hours ago, Isaacgs459 said:

Those two seem to be the ones most requested by people, or, if not Sacred Stones, the other two GBA.
Hmmm.... In general, if any of you were lead designer on future remakes of 4-8 [since we technically do have New Mystery], how would you go about remaking them? Introduce the complex skill system of other games to the GBA titles? New classes? Any changes to the maps/story?

 

(Forgive me if none of this makes sense, just getting out of a massive assignment write up and have the worst headache smh).

Hmm... what aspects would I introduce into Sacred Stones (for example and because of bias).
Spoiler tags just because it's long. 

Spoiler

1. The introduction of a skills system: I really enjoy the skills system akin to Fates, and by this, I mean being able to acquire different skills from spouses and buddies.  I feel that this would add new depth to the way you build up characters rather than just promoting them once they hit the desired level. Upon saying this, however, I don't think that buying skills from another person's version of the same unit should return, I feel like it takes the work and achievement out of creating a certain build that you can be proud of. 

2. Clarification of the Affinity System.  I believe that the affinity system should be kept as an extra means of padding out battle bonuses and strategies, however, it would be nice to have it clarified when playing.  Sacred Stones was the first fire emblem GBA game I played and I didn't understand what pairing affinities specifically did (and, rather embarrassingly, I still have difficulties with it now).  I mean, I know certain affinities provide bonuses to critical and hit rate, etc., however, I never saw it clarified or explained when I played.  I know it's all available on the wikia, and this might sound like a poor excuse, but I haven't properly digested it all yet.  Upon saying this, I don't think that it should be explained by the characters, I think that it should just be its own category in the pre-battle screen where you are able to view the bonuses characters with supports have.  

3. Redesign of characters and maps.  Similar to what has been done with SOV but kept true to Sacred Stones's original designs.  

4. Keep Valter's dialogue.  It's gold and it's what got me to choose Sacred Stones as my first FE GBA game in the first place.  Keep shining true, Valter.  

5. Pooled experience but less grinding outside of battle.  I think that in a harder difficulty there should be fewer opportunities to grind for experience, similar to the older games and conquest, however, I really like the idea of having small pooled amounts of experience that are either allocated automatically and distributed like in SOV or POR (correct me if I'm wrong please).  

6. Cutscenes for important or thrilling sections of the game.  Personally, for me anyway, nothing can be more thrilling than a well-executed cutscene and I feel like SS has a lot of potential them.  I really feel that proper cutscenes would add to most of the older games and if implemented correctly would add to a lot of people's excitement and appreciation of the game.  Plus, they usually look good.  Some specific cutscenes for certain boss battles might be nice, like Caellach vs Joshua, Ephraim vs Formortis, Eirika vs Lyon, Ephriam vs Orton, or Cormag vs. Valter, etc. - even Glen vs Valter, that'd be pretty cool to see.

7.  Keep the 'dark' element in both story and character.  I really enjoyed this, especially in the villain characters.  I always felt like there was something more to each of them that was hinted at for most of the game and it kept me engaged.

8. Make it more challenging in general.  I felt that SS was incredibly easy to play and have seen a lot of people describe it as the easiest game in the series.  So why not make it a bit more challenging?  Having multiple difficulties would be good for this, but making the game in general harder would also be a good way to target different play styles and people.  

9. Remove limited uses from legendary weapons but keep the uses for every other weapon.  I really enjoy the need to manage weapon use and money, however, when I get legendary weapons with uses I tend not to use them, which in itself is also sort of a waste.  

10.  An indication of when certain characters are ready to support.  I think that I missed out on a lot of supports because I just didn't realise that certain characters were ready to support.  So why not add a little notification or symbol when they're standing next to each other to help facilitate this.  I know that all you need to do is press the menu to attack, etc when you stand next to them and then 'support' will come up, but honestly I more often than not missed it.  

4

There's probably more to think of in terms of mechanics and how they might be retained or improved, however, I'm pretty much asleep at the keyboard right now so I'll leave it here.  If anyone else can think of anything I'd love to hear it.  

[Folt]

On 21.4.2017 at 1:00 PM, Mox said:

(Forgive me if none of this makes sense, just getting out of a massive assignment write up and have the worst headache smh).

Hmm... what aspects would I introduce into Sacred Stones (for example and because of bias).
Spoiler tags just because it's long. 

  Hide contents

1. The introduction of a skills system: I really enjoy the skills system akin to Fates, and by this, I mean being able to acquire different skills from spouses and buddies.  I feel that this would add new depth to the way you build up characters rather than just promoting them once they hit the desired level. Upon saying this, however, I don't think that buying skills from another person's version of the same unit should return, I feel like it takes the work and achievement out of creating a certain build that you can be proud of. 

2. Clarification of the Affinity System.  I believe that the affinity system should be kept as an extra means of padding out battle bonuses and strategies, however, it would be nice to have it clarified when playing.  Sacred Stones was the first fire emblem GBA game I played and I didn't understand what pairing affinities specifically did (and, rather embarrassingly, I still have difficulties with it now).  I mean, I know certain affinities provide bonuses to critical and hit rate, etc., however, I never saw it clarified or explained when I played.  I know it's all available on the wikia, and this might sound like a poor excuse, but I haven't properly digested it all yet.  Upon saying this, I don't think that it should be explained by the characters, I think that it should just be its own category in the pre-battle screen where you are able to view the bonuses characters with supports have.  

3. Redesign of characters and maps.  Similar to what has been done with SOV but kept true to Sacred Stones's original designs.  

4. Keep Valter's dialogue.  It's gold and it's what got me to choose Sacred Stones as my first FE GBA game in the first place.  Keep shining true, Valter.  

5. Pooled experience but less grinding outside of battle.  I think that in a harder difficulty there should be fewer opportunities to grind for experience, similar to the older games and conquest, however, I really like the idea of having small pooled amounts of experience that are either allocated automatically and distributed like in SOV or POR (correct me if I'm wrong please).  

6. Cutscenes for important or thrilling sections of the game.  Personally, for me anyway, nothing can be more thrilling than a well-executed cutscene and I feel like SS has a lot of potential them.  I really feel that proper cutscenes would add to most of the older games and if implemented correctly would add to a lot of people's excitement and appreciation of the game.  Plus, they usually look good.  Some specific cutscenes for certain boss battles might be nice, like Caellach vs Joshua, Ephraim vs Formortis, Eirika vs Lyon, Ephriam vs Orton, or Cormag vs. Valter, etc. - even Glen vs Valter, that'd be pretty cool to see.

7.  Keep the 'dark' element in both story and character.  I really enjoyed this, especially in the villain characters.  I always felt like there was something more to each of them that was hinted at for most of the game and it kept me engaged.

8. Make it more challenging in general.  I felt that SS was incredibly easy to play and have seen a lot of people describe it as the easiest game in the series.  So why not make it a bit more challenging?  Having multiple difficulties would be good for this, but making the game in general harder would also be a good way to target different play styles and people.  

9. Remove limited uses from legendary weapons but keep the uses for every other weapon.  I really enjoy the need to manage weapon use and money, however, when I get legendary weapons with uses I tend not to use them, which in itself is also sort of a waste.  

10.  An indication of when certain characters are ready to support.  I think that I missed out on a lot of supports because I just didn't realise that certain characters were ready to support.  So why not add a little notification or symbol when they're standing next to each other to help facilitate this.  I know that all you need to do is press the menu to attack, etc when you stand next to them and then 'support' will come up, but honestly I more often than not missed it.  

4

There's probably more to think of in terms of mechanics and how they might be retained or improved, however, I'm pretty much asleep at the keyboard right now so I'll leave it here.  If anyone else can think of anything I'd love to hear it.  

Make Supports faster in any GBA FE remake! That's all I need to be happy with a hypothetical Binding Blade/Blazing Sword/Sacred Stones remake!

For the hypothetical Genealogy/Thracia remakes, please add some of the more practical stuff from the newer FEs! It's not that I can't deal with antiquated mechanics (I thought Final Fantasy III DS was great fun! And also the GBA remake of Final Fantasy II! Not to mention I've played and gotten incredibly far on the OG Final Fantasy many times over! And I know I'll love Yooka-Laylee as N64 3D collectathon platformers were my most played games back in the day, to the point where I could actually play through DK64 multiple times and clear it multiple times!), but in my opinion, SoV through the addition of some of the latter FE mechanics (+ overall expanded content) really helps making an "oldie of a goldie" stand together with it's contemporaries of the modern age of gaming.

[Armagon]

41 minutes ago, Folt said:

Make Supports faster in any GBA FE remake! That's all I need to be happy with a hypothetical Binding Blade/Blazing Sword/Sacred Stones remake!

This. Getting Supports in the GBA games takes forever. Unless it's Roy x Lilina. That Support can max out in just one or two chapters.

 

43 minutes ago, Folt said:

For the hypothetical Genealogy/Thracia remakes, please add some of the more practical stuff from the newer FEs! It's not that I can't deal with antiquated mechanics (I thought Final Fantasy III DS was great fun! And also the GBA remake of Final Fantasy II! Not to mention I've played and gotten incredibly far on the OG Final Fantasy many times over! And I know I'll love Yooka-Laylee as N64 3D collectathon platformers were my most played games back in the day, to the point where I could actually play through DK64 multiple times and clear it multiple times!), but in my opinion, SoV through the addition of some of the latter FE mechanics (+ overall expanded content) really helps making an "oldie of a goldie" stand together with it's contemporaries of the modern age of gaming.

For Genealogy, I could see them putting in Pair-Ups simply because it'll help build the Love Points faster. And of course, add in Support Conversations. As for Thracia, I don't know. Literally everything in that game gives you Fatigue (unless your name is Leif) and Fatigue sucks in Thracia. I wouldn't want yet another way to get Fatigued in that game.

I'm gonna be completely honest, I kinda don't want Pair-Ups in remakes of older games (outside of Genealogy of course). I wouldn't mind if it were in remakes but like. I feel like Pair-Ups should just be a thing for the newer games.

[Folt]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

This. Getting Supports in the GBA games takes forever. Unless it's Roy x Lilina. That Support can max out in just one or two chapters.

 

For Genealogy, I could see them putting in Pair-Ups simply because it'll help build the Love Points faster. And of course, add in Support Conversations. As for Thracia, I don't know. Literally everything in that game gives you Fatigue (unless your name is Leif) and Fatigue sucks in Thracia. I wouldn't want yet another way to get Fatigued in that game.

I'm gonna be completely honest, I kinda don't want Pair-Ups in remakes of older games (outside of Genealogy of course). I wouldn't mind if it were in remakes but like. I feel like Pair-Ups should just be a thing for the newer games.

Pair Up being only for newer games is fine, but what I really want for Genealogy is to trade freely between units. Fatigue could be less bad if they went with SoV's version (and had ways to cure it), but then again, Thracia was pretty much designed to be so unfair that to win it you must break it over your knee and show it your utter domination of all things Fire Emblem.

[Armagon]

Just now, Folt said:

but what I really want for Genealogy is to trade freely between units.

THIS! SO MUCH THIS! OUT OF ALL THE PROBLEMS I HAD WITH GENEALOGY'S GAMEPLAY, THAT WAS MY BIGGEST ONE! It doesn't look that bad at first, but then you look at literally every other game in the series, and you see that you can freely trade. I swear, Genealogy only did that to justify the Pawn Shop.

Note: I don't hate Geneaolgy, I just had a lot of problems with it's gameplay, and that+Thracia 776 is the reason why Judgral is my least favorite FE series. I will say Geneaolgy's story, characters, and music made up for it tho.

 

[Heruseus]

Update!

I emailed Nintendo this afternoon. I told them that a great marketing position would be to release these games, so...

 

 

I may have just screwed us all over...

[LowestRes]

49 minutes ago, Heruseus said:

Update!

I emailed Nintendo this afternoon. I told them that a great marketing position would be to release these games, so...

 

 

I may have just screwed us all over...

Awakening remake yall!

[Dandee Leone]

On 4/18/2017 at 9:57 AM, Dandee Leone said:

Yes, Shadows of Valentia will be the only Echoes video game because nobody (except literally only Ghast) cares about Gaiden and the 3DS is old news in 2017 and thus the game will be the worst selling FE game ever and IS will lose faith in creating remakes and thus we can kiss Judgral remakes goodbye for eternity. 

 

 

And what do you know, the game bombed in Japan.

Fire Emblem is on it's death bed just as soon as it got off of it. 

Echoes will literally only have better sales than Tellius, which is quite frankly horrible in an era where FE is supposedly at the pinnacle of its popularity. Reaching a million would be a miracle, given the fact that #NobodyCaresAboutGaiden 

[Armagon]

14 minutes ago, Dandee Leone said:

And what do you know, the game bombed in Japan.

Fire Emblem is on it's death bed just as soon as it got off of it. 

Echoes will literally only have better sales than Tellius, which is quite frankly horrible in an era where FE is supposedly at the pinnacle of its popularity. Reaching a million would be a miracle, given the fact that #NobodyCaresAboutGaiden 

You do realize that the game still reached an 80-100% sellthrough, right? In other words, the game is technically a success.

Besides, ONE game with low-ish sales isn't gonna kill the series. Or did you forget that IS is making a ton of money with Heroes?

[Dandee Leone]

9 minutes ago, Armagon said:

You do realize that the game still reached an 80-100% sellthrough, right? In other words, the game is technically a success.

Besides, ONE game with low-ish sales isn't gonna kill the series. Or did you forget that IS is making a ton of money with Heroes?

Fine, the series overall will be doing good, with Awakening and Fates and Heroes, but there is clearly no more incentive or reason to ever remake other FE games or implement mechanics form older games, when clearly, they will only sabotage the potential success IS can have by only focusing on Awakening and Fates mechanics/structure.

While I personally don't mind too much (since Awakening is my fav game) I still really like the mechanics and themes of older FE's, and want new FE games to be a blend of the best of old and new FE. Older FE mechanics, it seems, simply have no place in 2017.

And there is literally no financial incentive, at all, for IS to remake a game as ambitious as FE 4 in HD for the Switch, since development costs will be through the roof (in comparison to 3DS), thus making FE 4 bomb even harder than SoV. 

So it's either classic/old FE games have no place in 2017, or people really, really dislike Echoes: -SoV- for being a Gaiden remake (which is perhaps the most hated game in the franchise, by being part of the line of infamous "number two" sequels that plagued NES games back in the day, like Zelda II  and Mario II which was a Doki Doki panic reskin).

Edited April 28, 2017 by Dandee Leone

[Armagon]

Just now, Dandee Leone said:

Fine, the series overall will be doing good, but there is clearly no more incentive or reason to ever remake other FE games or implement mechanics form older games, when clearly, they will only sabotage the potential success IS can have by only focusing on Awakening and Fates mechanics/structure.

While I personally don't mind too much (since Awakening is my fav game) I still really like the mechanics and themes of older FE's, and want new FE games to be a blend of the best of old and new FE. Older FE mechanics, it seems, simply have no place in 2017.

And there is literally no financial incentive, at all, for IS to remake a game as ambitious as FE 4 in HD for the Switch, since development costs will be through the roof (in comparison to 3DS), thus making FE 4 bomb even harder than SoV. 

So it's either classic/old FE games have no place in 2017, or people really, really dislike Echoes: -SoV- for being a Gaiden remake (which is perhaps the most hated game in the franchise,being the infamous sequel that plagued NES games back in the day, like Zelda and Mario).

Again, Echoes isn't actually bombing, seeing as how it's gotten an 80-100% sell-through. You know what that means, right? It means that the game is technically already a success. Oh and btw, that's just Week 1 in Japan. We haven't even gotten the game here yet and, by the way, America is the source of the majority of FE's sales.

I doubt an FE4 remake would "bomb", seeing as how it's often regarded as the best FE.

Also, Classic FE does have a place in 2017 and onwards. You see, Gaiden is Classic but it's also different from the rest of FE. Binding Blade, for instance, as well as the Tellius games, are constantly being requested to be remade/re-released. Gaiden is divisive but it actually isn't as hated as you claim it to be. It's just disliked at most. Just like Zelda II. I've seen more people hate on Binding Blade, Radiant Dawn, and of course, Fates. And Shadow Dragon.

[Dandee Leone]

9 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Again, Echoes isn't actually bombing, seeing as how it's gotten an 80-100% sell-through. You know what that means, right? It means that the game is technically already a success. Oh and btw, that's just Week 1 in Japan. We haven't even gotten the game here yet and, by the way, America is the source of the majority of FE's sales.

I doubt an FE4 remake would "bomb", seeing as how it's often regarded as the best FE.

Also, Classic FE does have a place in 2017 and onwards. You see, Gaiden is Classic but it's also different from the rest of FE. Binding Blade, for instance, as well as the Tellius games, are constantly being requested to be remade/re-released. Gaiden is divisive but it actually isn't as hated as you claim it to be. It's just disliked at most. Just like Zelda II. I've seen more people hate on Binding Blade, Radiant Dawn, and of course, Fates. And Shadow Dragon.

First off, Fire Emblem always have frontloaded sales, meaning that the majority of each game's liftime sales occur during launch week.

Secondly, an FE 4 remake indeed does have a much higher chance than Echoes: SoV to bomb because it would be developed for Switch, and HD assets and making use of the advanced Switch infrastructure would cost way more money to develop for than the 3DS, meaning that it would have to sell much more than SoV to break even or make a profit. 

Thirdly, you only ever see people clamoring for remakes online, in dedicate gaming forums. To the average newbie who joined the series with Awakening and or Fates, they could care less about a game from the past, and will simply want a new game with familiar mechanics from the two they played instead of having to deal with the different mechanics in older FE games. 

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Dandee Leone

[Armagon]

8 minutes ago, Dandee Leone said:

First off, Fire Emblem always have frontloaded sales, meaning that the majority of each game's liftime sales occur during launch week.

Secondly, an FE 4 remake indeed does have a much higher chance than Echoes: SoV to bomb because it would be developed for Switch, and HD assets and making use of the advanced Switch infrastructure would cost way more money to develop for than the 3DS, meaning that it would have to sell much more than SoV to break even or make a profit. 

Thirdly, you only ever see people clamoring for remakes online, in dedicate gaming forums. To the average newbie who joined the series with Awakening and or Fates, they could care less about a game from the past, and will simply want a new game with familiar mechanics from the two they played instead of having to deal with the different mechanics in older FE games. 

 

1. The majority of Fire Emblem sales also tend to come from America. Meaning that American sales will patch things up for Echoes.

2. Yes and no. Yes, it would cost more than SoV. No because an FE4 remake on the Switch would use the same engine as FE16, thus, reducing costs.

3. Wrong, i have seen several casual players who started with Awakening or Fates who want to play the older games but can't because they are inaccesable as fuck, unless you use emulator. And when it comes to emulators, a good chunk of people don't use them, mainly because it doesn't support the developers. The only clasic FE games that are actually accesiable are Blazing Blade and Sacred Stone, both of which are on Virtual Console, and both of which are well liked, even among newer players who have played them.

[bethany81707]

If IS thinks hard enough, they'll notice that Tellius's popularity is coming from an event that happened after Radiant Dawn's release, and figure that rereleasing the title will have much better sales.

But I don't know how much stuff like that is observed by the market statisticians.

[Heruseus]

Shit, this turned into a warzone real quick.