What are the Best and Worst units in Conquest

[joshcja]

 

11 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Alright, let's talk mediocre units

Odin's growth rates are as follows.

Those are personal growths smrt, include class growths. Then state how they interact with the game including specific benchmarks on key segments of key chapters. Aknowledge the tools in the game and compare similar units at similar invest. Spoilers: I did this before I claimed Odin was a good unit.

And no, you didn't finish reading it because you know you have a niche opinion and can't stand it when people correct you. And when so many people are saying "x character in x game is amazing because [reasons]," you can't just plug your ears and fall back on"lol they're wrong" because it contradicts your own opinion. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

Seems to work for you.

Effie is high on CQ lists made for hard mode by people who have just gotten their first clear. These are not a source worthy of citation.

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

So, uh, OP... Are you fine with your legitimate question spiraling into a flame war about whether or not Odin is good?

Maybe this isn't my place to butt in since I am apparently incapable of beating Conquest on Hard mode, because the game just loves to screw me over, but if you want my perspective on Conquest's units, I can definitively say that you should stay away from anything that sits on a horse and whose name doesn't start with E and ends in -lise (since the person in question should never engage in direct combat anyway). Chapter 19 a.k.a. Kitsune hell will enjoy ripping through all of them. I don't know how many times I've had to reset because Xander, Silas or Leo died to those nine-tailed foxes. And that's just on Normal difficulty (I didn't even make it that far on Hard, admittedly).

Other units I wouldn't recommend are Arthur, Charlotte (both of them don't hit crap and have about as much durability as a wet piece of paper), Nyx (as much as it pains me to say it since she's one of my favourites. You have to invest a lot into her to make her viable), Odin (without additional investment, at least), Laslow (you get more mileage out of Selena since she can actually tank stuff, especially as Hero) and Leo (too slow and too weak to really do anything) and Mozu if you're not planning on giving her that first Heart Seal you can buy.

Units I can recommend are Keaton (he rips through Kitsune hell like it's nothing. For an even better effect, get his daughter Velouria. If you pair him with Selena, they'll rip Conquest to shreds from Chapter 21 onward), Beruka (tanky and actually accurate. A Ninja's nightmare come to life), Strategist!Elise (no one deals more magic damage than her. She kills most enemies in one hit with a standard Fire tome (keep her away from Kitsune hell, though. Use her as a healer there and try to keep her out of enemy range)), Selena (do NOT promote her to Bow Knight. Trust me) and the rest is your choice. Niles and Kaze are nice because they can tank mages pretty well, but their damage output won't be that great, Azura... I hate her, so I refuse to use her and a Dancer's usability depends on playstyle, Xander is on a horse and one of the most overrated units in Fates, second only to Ryoma.

The kids are also nice to have, but most of them are pretty underwhelming (Ignatius, Siegbert, Shigure and Sophie), while others are plain awful in terms of effort put in / difficulty to get them vs. benefit of having them (Dwyer, Forrest, Soleil and Nina).

The only ones I can safely recommend getting are Ophelia (especially with Elise as her mother), Velouria (best with Selena, Effie or Camilla) and the Demon Empress Midori (best with Azura, Beruka, Selena or Corrin). The problem with kids is, you need to invest time in pairing up their parents and if the parents are units you don't want to use (like, say, Selena and Keaton for Velouria), you'll still have to waste two deployment slots for them and you also need to have them engage in combat at times, thus, I only really recommend children if you plan on playing the game using outside resources for grinding supports (visiting other people's castles, DLC maps, etc.). If you plan on using the parents alongside the kid, I recommend trying to get the ones you want before Chapter 20 or 21, when things start to get hairy.

[Extrasolar]

Quote

Those are personal growths smrt, include class growths.
 

I don't need to, because they already identify the main problems with Odin (i.e., he absolutely sucks in every area where he needs to be at least competent). Like I said, there are 100% better options than Odin, including Leo and Izana. Odin is simply not a good unit. Odin is a waste of resources that can be used on better units, simple as that.

 

5 minutes ago, joshcja said:

 

Effie is high on CQ lists made for hard mode by people who have just gotten their first clear. These are not a source worthy of citation.

 

I don't know who you are to decide what a "source worthy of citation is." Sorry, but tier lists are tier lists, and Effie appears high on tier lists far more than she appears low on tier lists, so I'm inclined to go with the majority of people rather than a vocal minority. When the majority of people in this very thread are saying Odin is mediocre, it should say something to you, but you've got some sort of logic-block on or something.

By all means, continue trying to put forth that Odin is an amazing unit. Doesn't change the fact that he's just not, purely looking at data sans cheese strats. You're very much willfully blind, so I don't think we'll be getting anywhere with this.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[joshcja]

12 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Stuff about 19.

Put Xander on a dragon with the heart seal, have him hold corrin and the BK. Fly in a circle. GG.

It's terrible exp spread but it works every game.

(Seriously I'm not OK with the way this thread has gone. Apologies to the OP. I tried yo.)

@Extrasolar: Actually yes you do need to include complete factual evidence to dispute or prove a theory. I have done this multiple times because golly gee gosh I hold unpopular opinions. You have not. Wow me with your game knowledge. When fact checking always consider the source. Or do you use wikipedia on research projects?

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Extrasolar]

17 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Put Xander on a dragon with the heart seal, have him hold corrin and the BK. Fly in a circle.

It's terrible exp spread but it works every game.

@Extrasolar: Actually yes you do need to include complete factual evidence to dispute or prove a theory.

Okay. Let's add the dark mage growths on top of Odin's personals then.

HP 55 +0 (moot. Okay HP for a mage.)
STR 35 +10 (45%, shaky. Though admittedly doesn't need this unless he promotes to Dark Knight.)
MAGIC 30 +20 (Puts him at 50%; still shaky, plus Leo and Nyx still outstrip him in this area; Nyx's growth with her dark mage and and personal is 70%. Huge difference there.)
SKILL 55 +0 (moot. Okay skill, but not spectacular. Contributes to him getting a crit every now and then.)
LUCK 60  +0 (moot. Good luck growth, great when passed down to Ophelia with a similarly high luck/skill unit.)
SPEED 35 +5 (40%, shaky. But again, many Conquest units fall victim to the same.)
DEFENSE 40 +5 (45%, shaky. Will be relatively tanky, especially for a mage. But not capable of tanking multiple hits in a row as a dark mage.)
RESISTANCE 20 +10 (30%. Still awful.)

Overall, still very subpar. Not worthless, but most definitely, at base, not great. His contributions to Ophelia are his strongest area.

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[DragonFlames]

23 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Put Xander on a dragon with the heart seal, have him hold corrin and the BK. Fly in a circle. GG.

It's terrible exp spread but it works every game.

This is of course assuming you have the gold to spare and / or haven't used a Heart Seal elsewhere.

Speaking of a terrible EXP spread, that is something I very much like to avoid, especially in a game without level grinding.

And Wyvern!Xander will get squashed in the following chapters when all the Snipers and Kinshi-Knights show up. Granted, Beruka and Camilla will, too, but do you really want to risk having THREE units weak to bow damage in a late-game where Bow users are abound like flies in a trash heap (which is what Xander as a character ultimately amounts to)? Personally, my answer to that question is a big 'no'. Even two is pushing it for me.

Besides, I hate Xander too much to even consider using him. EVER.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DragonFlames
I forgot how to English for a sec.

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

Building up an air force is actually a pretty viable strategy in the chapters after kitsune hell. While you do have to watch out for bows (and the wall sucks), mobility is king in wind hell, on the endless staircase, and in Hinoka's chapter.

also i regret to inform you that you have terrible taste

[joshcja]

19 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Okay. Let's add the dark mage growths on top of Odin's personals then.

HP 55 +0 (moot. Okay HP for a mage.)
STR 35 +10 (45%, shaky. Though admittedly doesn't need this unless he promotes to Dark Knight.)
MAGIC 30 +20 (Puts him at 50%; still shaky, plus Leo and Nyx still outstrip him in this area; Nyx's growths with her dark mage and and personal is 70%. Huge difference there.)
SKILL 55 +0 (moot. Okay skill, but not spectacular. Contributes to him getting a crit every now and then.)
LUCK 60 + 0 (moot. Good luck growth, great when passed down to Ophelia with a similarly high luck/skill unit.)
SPEED 35+ 5 (40%, shaky. But again, many Conquest units fall victim to the same.)
DEFENSE 40 + 5 (45%, shaky.)
RESISTANCE 20 + 10 (30%. Still awful.)

Overall, still very subpar. Not worthless, but most definitely, at base, not great. His contributions to Ophelia are his strongest area.

 

Ophelia ends the game on ch13. After that you're watching a black screen. So yes Odin's greatest contribution is his dick.

Now relate Odin's stats at average growths and real hp, function with the games curve in the described useage to show how this unit is less than a stellar EP option. Compare to similar units and include realistic resource usage. Take into account available pair-up and buffs.

You do not need to show the full game ofc that's a ridiculous request. Lets go to Ch13 since second shop is where CQ loses any vestige of scarcity and no reclassing is done on any of the units before that.

I do this before I claim a unit is good. (Or just do the fun version and play with all the toys over and over and then do the math)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit @DragonFlames: Bird status is so strong midgame that draco!xander is actively prefered for ch20 and 21. You get infinite seals in third shop and can just fly xander over the canyon in ch23 and reclass back to pony. With full talisman use and tonics+meal Xander is perfectly capable of tanking the wall so your birds can rush in and clean up as long as you position for Oboro's pairup bot to attack you and leave her exposed on player phase. That said any bird with a pole, knife user on a mountain, or other dork can solo CH19 if you hate Xander. You can feed the right side to the mook squad for more exp and just solo the left for safety if you like.

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

11 minutes ago, DoesntKnowHowToPlay said:

Building up an air force is actually a pretty viable strategy in the chapters after kitsune hell. While you do have to watch out for bows (and the wall sucks), mobility is king in wind hell, on the endless staircase, and in Hinoka's chapter.

also i regret to inform you that you have terrible taste

Sorry

Huh, really? I should try that sometime. I DID have pretty good experiences with fielding Kinshi-Knight!Mozu (especially if paired with Corrin and equipped with two sets of Boots. 10 Mov, baby!) along with Camilla / Beruka before. Although, yes. The Wall was tricky, as was any other chapter with Bow users present.

Thanks for the tip!

Your username belies your capabilities.

Edit @joshcja: Couldn't the Kitsune just climb the mountains, though? I'm pretty sure they can. If not, then that would be a Big-Lipped-Alligator-Moment on my part.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DragonFlames

[joshcja]

12 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Stuff

Yes its more that a bulky knife on a mountain under buffs and pairups is comperable to a bulky dragon with buffs and pairups.

Vantage!Sorc also works but there's no reason to use them for this. Nos users are hilariously over leveled at this point and are better off feeding your mooks with heartseeker.

The most absurd thing is kinshi soloing this map (kitsunes cannot climb peaks).

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[deskita]

10 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Ophelia ends the game on ch13. After that you're watching a black screen. So yes Odin's greatest contribution is his dick.

I wouldn't quite go that far as Ophelia can be subject to RNG problems and in my own run she had low defence and low skill similar to Nyx to the point where I replaced her with Leo as there weren't enough deployment slots. What mother is the most commonly used for Ophelia anyway? I've used Elise and Nyx and both Ophelia ended up with worse defence than Leo. Just a bit curious.

[ruruo]

I'd second @joshcja with Effie. I've used her on my first Conquest run. I feel like she seems really good thanks to her high Hp, Str, Def. But I'm happier without her on this Lunatic. I think it might just be that the rest of the party is freed from having to depend on her as a main tank. imo her default classes aren't really that stellar either. General better class because of higher caps, but that movement really hurts. GK is just... ugh. Armour and Beast weakness + low mounted moment ;_; 

Two cents about Odin and no more - don't want to add more fuel to fire: 
I can't imagine Odin not getting comparatively bulk for a magical unit. His growth is really balanced. I'd take 45% defence growth, with 55% hp growth for bulk. Even as a physical unit he still gets decent enough resistance, and magic. His skill is good, I can imagine him becoming decent magic unit with dusts.

@DragonFlamesFor Ch19, you don't even need to do anything special if you don't want to. Predict the foxes - if they've got the green leaf it means those are the ones that will attack you on the next EP, and keep to the edge of their range. (I also think that going from the top by destroying the log is harder. I usually ignore it, and just use the bottom bridge. Kaze with the Hunter's Knife is great, Haitaka with Beast Killer is also great. Taking advantage of Attack Stance really helps too.)

Something I desperately want to know:

How does everyone seem to run out of gold/funds on Conquest? How????? With the money you get, I don't think gold should ever be an excuse for units. 

[joshcja]

Ophelia runs vantage + damage stack. She takes 0 damage when below half HP because she hits the benchmarks to flat ohko every single enemy in the game sans final takumi who gets ORKO'd by forged lightning. This is all 100% safe. This is a thing in no grind and can result in a solo clear of Ch28 though rescue is much more practical. (The 28 solo takes almost every resource in the game and 3 mag statues). Corrin "can" replicate this with 4 statues or simply cap at the Ch26 clear but in order to do this you build and recruit Ophelia. Corrin also consumes more resources to reach the ch26 clear. That said she is usable from Ch1 and is not route locked so it's a fun build option in birthroute. Corin imitating Ophelia is also the best argument against Odin in casual play. That said Corrin imitation is the best argument against any unit not named Niles,Azura, Camilia, or Silias.

@komasa I have no idea how people run out of resources in CQ. The game is effectively post-scarcity from ch13 onwards and is really generous after ch8. I guess they buy all the shinies?

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

18 minutes ago, komasa said:

 

@DragonFlamesFor Ch19, you don't even need to do anything special if you don't want to. Predict the foxes - if they've got the green leaf it means those are the ones that will attack you on the next EP, and keep to the edge of their range. (I also think that going from the top by destroying the log is harder. I usually ignore it, and just use the bottom bridge. Kaze with the Hunter's Knife is great, Haitaka with Beast Killer is also great. Taking advantage of Attack Stance really helps too.)

Something I desperately want to know:

How does everyone seem to run out of gold/funds on Conquest? How????? With the money you get, I don't think gold should ever be an excuse for units. 

So that's it. I always go north first. I feel stupid again.

Thanks for the advice, guys! I greatly appreciate it!

The reason I sometimes run out of gold is because I am overly careful with staves. That's pretty much it. It doesn't happen often, though.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DragonFlames

[Extrasolar]

38 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Ophelia ends the game on ch13. After that you're watching a black screen. So yes Odin's greatest contribution is his dick.

Now relate Odin's stats at average growths and real hp, function with the games curve in the described useage to show how this unit is less than a stellar EP option. Compare to similar units and include realistic resource usage. Take into account available pair-up and buffs.

You do not need to show the full game ofc that's a ridiculous request. Lets go to Ch13 since second shop is where CQ loses any vestige of scarcity and no reclassing is done on any of the units before that.

I do this before I claim a unit is good. (Or just do the fun version and play with all the toys over and over and then do the math)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a disclaimer, I definitely didn't intend this argument to get as hostile as it ended up sort of being. Shouldn't have been as dismissive as I was at points. Apologies.

Maybe it's just a case of misunderstanding. I take "which units are good" to mean which units work without real investment, or which units can be good without having to be reclassed or Paired Up. I know these mechanics exist and are integral to winning the game, especially on harder difficulties, and I'm not denying that you can't get creative and make a unit wreck face with enough setup, but there are also units that don't require setup (or as much setup) to be good. In all fairness, I'm speaking from a non-Lunatic point of view, considering the OP didn't make it clear that they were playing on the harder difficulties, so I assumed the Normal difficulty was what we were talking about here. I'm aware that Hard and Lunatic requires much more creative strategies to win, and some things just flat-out don't work on Lunatic that work on Normal.

Question though. If Odin's main contribution is Ophelia (and I'm definitely not denying that Ophelia is amazing), wouldn't that make her the good unit, not him, considering he exists mainly as a way to get her? I'm trying to follow this here.

 

23 minutes ago, komasa said:

I'd second @joshcja with Effie. I've used her on my first Conquest run. I feel like she seems really good thanks to her high Hp, Str, Def. But I'm happier without her on this Lunatic. I think it might just be that the rest of the party is freed from having to depend on her as a main tank. imo her default classes aren't really that stellar either. General better class because of higher caps, but that movement really hurts. GK is just... ugh. Armour and Beast weakness + low mounted moment ;_;

How does everyone seem to run out of gold/funds on Conquest? How????? With the money you get, I don't think gold should ever be an excuse for units. 

Great Knight is very subpar, as I've found. General is a far better promotion for Effie in every way. She is pretty much the tank of the team, but Keaton also serves this role, as does Benny. Xander comes in as a tank to anything not magical, and Leo can work as an off-tank in a pinch. But I can see how her low movement might be a problem on harder difficulties. She soloes Normal, for the most part, though.

Buying weapons mostly, for me. The more expensive weapons get super expensive.
 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Soanevalcke6]

On 3/2/2017 at 5:26 PM, Anomalocaris said:

• Niles... He's also got the Capture skill if you want to mess with that (and there's one unit you should definitely consider capturing).

Who is that one Unit?


Also, should any of the good units mentioned in this topic be reclassed? Specifically Royals, Jakob, Effie, Ophelia, Velouria or Corrin?

[DragonFlames]

8 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Question though. If Odin's main contribution if Ophelia (and I'm definitely not denying that Ophelia is amazing), wouldn't that make her the good unit, not him, considering he exists mainly as a way to get her? I'm trying to follow this here.

Great Knight is very subpar, as I've found. General is a far better promotion for Effie in every way. She is pretty much the tank of the team, but Keaton also serves this role, as does Benny. Xander comes in as a tank to anything not magical, and Leo can work as an off-tank in a pinch. But I can see how her low movement might be a problem on harder difficulties. She soloes Normal, for the most part, though.

I would say so, yes.

For tanks, my go to is Beruka on the physical and Elise on the magical side. Beruka only needs to be careful around bows and Elise needs to be kept away from anything dishing out physical hits, but both have very high movement, which is my main reason for dropping Effie after Chapter 11 or so and both can actually double if it comes down to it. For Generals, I like Benny more than Effie because of a higher Defence stat and growth. Keaton is a tanking god, as is Velouria. Selena can actually be considered a tank, as well, especially if promoted to Hero (seriously, the Heroes in Ch27 don't stand a chance against her, not even the one with the Brave Sword. She might need Sol, though).

Edit @Soanevalcke6: I think Haitaka and that one Master of Arms with the Rally skills are two units that are recommended for capturing.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DragonFlames

[ruruo]

 

@Soanevalcke6, That awesome boss in Ch9 called Haitaka 

(on Lunatic - consider Rallyman on Ch23 and on Hard/Lunatic: PassFalco on Ch 24)

[Extrasolar]

3 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

For tanks, my go to is Beruka on the physical and Elise on the magical side. Beruka only needs to be careful around bows and Elise needs to be kept away from anything dishing out physical hits, but both have very high movement, which is my main reason for dropping Effie after Chapter 11 or so and both can actually double if it comes down to it. For Generals, I like Benny more than Effie because of a higher Defence stat and growth. Keaton is a tanking god, as is Velouria. Selena can actually be considered a tank, as well, especially if promoted to Hero (seriously, the Heroes in Ch27 don't stand a chance against her, not even the one with the Brave Sword. She might need Sol, though).

Benny just doesn't do it for me. Sure, he's a wall, but he's got a pathetic strength stat in comparison to Effie; I've always liked my generals to hit hard, and be able to tank hits. Benny only offers the latter.

Leo is my magical tank for the most part. I have a hard time training up sole healers pre-promotion, since they just don't get a lot of experience in general from healing. I never even get to promoting Elise on my runs of Conquest. I tend to use Izana, Niles and Shura to cover my healing needs, as they're easier to train in general, with Jakob in there once his damage falls into oblivion.

Selena always turns out so squishy for me, and I find her very hard to train. She doesn't seem to deal much damage to anything, and struggles to take a hit. It could be that Laslow's strength and defense are just better, despite the fact that he starts out comparatively fragile (I had to restart so many times during Chapter 13 because the guy died on me...).

4 minutes ago, Soanevalcke6 said:

Who is that one Unit?

Also, should any of the good units mentioned in this topic be reclassed? Specifically Royals, Jakob, Effie, Ophelia, Velouria or Corrin?

Archer you get in Chapter 9. One eye, white hair. Sadistic with a penchant for innuendos.

I would say no on all counts. All of them work fine in their base classes, though of course you can experiment to your heart's content.

[ruruo]

13 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Archer you get in Chapter 9. One eye, white hair. Sadistic with a penchant for innuendos.

You get the sadistic one eyed archer with a penchant for innuendos on Ch8 with Odin last time I checked. 

Leo as a Dark Knight imo is too balanced on higher difficulties. I actually felt he was my worst unit on my Hard run, even Elise outclassed him as a Strategist. 

I can understand Brave Weapons, but not Silver - don't think they're worth the price. Forges imo are better because there isn't any stat drops. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by komasa
typo

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, joshcja said:

I didn't say he capped naturally, that would be ignorant as all hell. I said any unit that uses mag in conquest will probably cap magic, this is completely true.

Except Odin does not. Even at 20/20 average (and I don't usually hit that, so I judge people by their performance at lower levels), he needs four Spirit Dusts to cap. Even if you manage to get that many (which I believe requires buying the one from the store, but I don't have this memorized), there are other units who want them. Other methods of temporarily raising stats exist but do not contribute to whether a stat is considered capped, and can be applied equally to the other magic users without running into their caps.

Therefore Odin does not cap Mag.

Most Conquest tier lists have Effie above Odin, this is an easily verifiable fact. You're free to say "well those tier lists are made by idiots who cause my brain to shut off" but (a) you may find such words are counterproductive to getting your point across effectively, and (b) you probably shouldn't invoke "most tier lists" in your argument.

[ruruo]

11 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Except Odin does not. Even at 20/20 average (and I don't usually hit that, so I judge people by their performance at lower levels), he needs four Spirit Dusts to cap. Even if you manage to get that many (which I believe requires buying the one from the store, but I don't have this memorized), there are other units who want them.

You can get more than four spirit dusts in Nohr: 

Ch 11, Ch15, Ch22, Ophelia's recruit chapter. 

Buying gets you five. If you're using MyCastle you can get six

[Dark Holy Elf]

Thank you for the correction.

Needless to say it does not change my point.

[Agro]

Who wants the other Spirit Dusts? Maybe Camilla with Bolt Axe? That's about all I can think of.

[joshcja]

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Thank you for the correction.

Needless to say it does not change my point.

Your point is that you're missing the point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children

Yes it's wikipedia and I know shame, couldn't find the short essay series fsr. Considering the subject matter here, I'll allow it.

Edited March 5, 2017 by joshcja