Localization, Cultural Translation and Censorship Thread

[Acacia Sgt]

6 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

My mistake. You're right about that. It seems like they're concerned with changing names most of the time, but for some reason made an exception for Arthur. Not sure why - maybe it's because of how comparatively obscure Genealogy is in the west, so they knew that most newer FE fans or FE fans who have only played the western games would have no idea who the new Arthur is. With Aran and Arran, if they had just called them both "Aran," then someone could get confused.

Well, every time "Sety" the Crusader is mentioned in dialogue or narration, unless they want to attach "the Crusader" to his name every time he's mentioned, someone with little knowledge of FE4 story or FE in general could assume they're talking about the descendant, or vice versa. I'm not saying that everyone would be confused or that everyone is a moron, but you're taught to adjust for those people. They're both green-haired mages who wield the Forseti tome, so I can see someone who's only casually interested in the story or who hasn't perused the story in-depth getting confused. Sure, one is long-dead, but if someone just says "Wind Mage Sety" they could either be talking about the crusader of the descendant.

Further context would flesh it out, but a lot of people miss that too, or skip past it.

Keep in mind Sety/Ced is from the same game as the first Arthur. Besides, both were Einherjar in Awakening, where one kept his name, and the other got the name change. So Genealogy Arthur retaining the name in localization predates Fates Arthur, who was named Harold in Japan, so the name was different. Localization deliberately changed his name to one another character in localization had. By the way, it's the same thing for Arran and Aran. Arran was also Arran in Japan, but Aran's Japanese name is Brad.

Context is important, as you say. So consider this. One of them is a background character, an important one, but background nonetheless. The other is a PC who has appeared in three games, and as mentioned before, Awakening being one of them, where Ced would certainly gain notoriety for the FE fans not quite well versed in Genealogy yet. Also, they don't look alike. It's Lewyn who looks like Sety, if we go by that artwork of the crusaders, not Ced. Even a casual glance should give enough info to avoid confusion.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Extrasolar]

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Keep in mind Sety/Ced is from the same game as the first Arthur. Besides, both were Einherjar in Awakening, where one kept his name, and the other got the name change. So Genealogy Arthur predates Gates Arthur, who was named Harold in Japan, sot he name was different. Localization deliberately changed his name to one another character had. By the way, it's the same thing for Arran and Aran. Arran was also Arran in Japan, but Aran's Japanese name is Bradd

Context is important, as you say. So consider this. One of them is a background character, an important one, but background nonetheless. The other is a PC who has appeared in three games, and as mentioned before, Awakening being one of them, where Ced would certainly gain notoriety for the FE fans not quite well versed in Genealogy yet. Also, they don't look alike. It's Lewyn who looks like Sety, if we go by that artwork of the crusaders, not Ced. Even a casual glance should give enough info to avoid confusion.

Arthur doesn't share a name with another character from his own game, whereas Ced in the original does. He was indeed an Einherjar, but a lot of players simply didn't use those features, and thus, never encountered him. I know I didn't; granted, I've been in the FE fandom since RD came out, and the only reason I know anything about Genealogy is because of this very site.

Even those that did use them would have no idea who he is besides the few lines he gives on some of the DLC maps, which is why I can see them thinking that he'd be forgettable to most new players in the first place, which is why I think they didn't mind giving Arthur from Fates the same name. But I think Brad was changed to Aran just because it was too common a name, as most common names in FE get fantasy-ified or mythological-ified up. Except Oscar, for whatever reason. But he's meant to be the normal, grounded guy, so I can see why they gave him a normal name.

Oh, I'm not denying that storywise Genealogy Arthur is more important than Fates Arthur..but Fates Arthur would be infinitely more recognizable to a western audience.

They don't look alike, but we also never see any of the Crusaders in-game. It's the supplementary Japanese material that finally gave us a picture of the Crusaders. Before, Sety was just referred to with his name or his title of "Wind Mage Sety" and was described as wielding the Forseti tome. The descendant is also a Wind Mage Sety who wields the Forseti tome. If anything, I can see them changing the name in preparation for a potential remake of FE4 - they don't want two Setys running around in the same game.

Of course at the end of the day, I can only give you what I believe their reasoning for the change are. Avoiding confusion is paramount to them, it seems.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Acacia Sgt]

12 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Arthur doesn't share a name with another character from his own game, whereas Ced in the original does. He was indeed an Einherjar, but a lot of players simply didn't use those features, and thus, never encountered him. I know I didn't; granted, I've been in the FE fandom since RD came out, and the only reason I know anything about Genealogy is because of this very site.

Even those that did use them would have no idea who he is besides the few lines he gives on some of the DLC maps, which is why I can see them thinking that he'd be forgettable to most new players in the first place, which is why I think they didn't mind giving Arthur from Fates the same name. But I think Brad was changed to Aran just because it was too common a name, as most common names in FE get fantasy-ified or mythological-ified up. Except Oscar, for whatever reason. But he's meant to be the normal, grounded guy, so I can see why they gave him a normal name.

Oh, I'm not denying that storywise Genealogy Arthur is more important than Fates Arthur..but Fates Arthur would be infinitely more recognizable to a western audience.

They don't look alike, but we also never see any of the Crusaders in-game. It's the supplementary Japanese material that finally gave us a picture of the Crusaders. Before, Sety was just referred to with his name or his title of "Wind Mage Sety" and was described as wielding the Forseti tome. The descendant is also a Wind Mage Sety who wields the Forseti tome. If anything, I can see them changing the name in preparation for a potential remake of FE4 - they don't want two Setys running around in the same game.

Of course at the end of the day, I can only give you what I believe their reasoning for the change are. Avoiding confusion is paramount to them, it seems.

And that was the point. Sety, even if Lewyn isn't his father, is named Sety after the crusader (despite how much Genealogy itself pushes Lewyn/Erin, it wasn't until Thraccia776 that turned it canon). Also, even if people don't use the Einherjar themselves, there are still plenty of ways to become aware of them. The DLC, the Spotpass Teams, etc. The Spotpass is free, unlike the DLC, so it's not like people wouldn't have the chance to meet them. Also, hearing it second-handed.

Maybe, but keep in mind Tellius names also include people like Edward, Laura, Leonardo, etc.

And that's key. Sety the Crusader doesn't even appear in person, so why should anyone be confused? Again, it would take both of them to be alive and present in the same scenario for a statement like, "Look, it's Sety over there!" to be followed up with, "Which Sety is that one, again?" Otherwise, you can easily tell who it is, since both were never alive at the same time. Since they've yet to do it, confusion can be avoided because it wouldn't be there in the first place.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Extrasolar]

14 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

And that was the point. Sety, even if Lewyn isn't his father, is named Sety after the crusader (despite how much Genealogy itself pushes Lewyn/Erin, it wasn't until Traccia776 that turned it canon). Also, even if people don't use the Einherjar themselves, there are still plenty of ways to become aware of them. The DLC, the Spotpass Teams, etc. The Spotpass is free, unlike the DLC, so it's not like people wouldn't have the chance to meet them. Also, hearing it second-handed.

Maybe, but keep in mind Tellius names also include people like Edward, Laura, Leonardo, etc.

And that's key. Sety the Crusader doesn't even appear in person, so why should anyone be confused? Again, it would take both of them to be alive and present in the same scenario for a statement like, "Look, it's Sety over there!" to be followed up with, "Which Sety is that one, again?" Otherwise, you can easily tell who it is, since both were never alive at the same time. Since they've yet to do it, confusion can be avoided because it wouldn't be there in the first place.

Well, that requires you to have friends or encounter people also playing FIre Emblem. While Fire Emblem is much more popular in the west than it used to be, it's still not amazingly popular that anyone you run into knows what it is or has played it, simply from my experience.

And just speaking personally, even if they are FE fans, there aren't a lot in my general vicinity at any time. Plus, I and lots of other people in the US don't live in crowded cities like most Japanese players do (I live in essentially a suburban/relatively rural area), so the likelihood of running into someone playing it too is very, very low. Also, hearing it second-handed would require people to know fans of FE who themselves have gotten exposure to the original games either through sites like these or something similar. It's not as high a chance as you're implying that it is.

It's just a rather common practice in the series. There are some relatively normal names left, but a good portion of them tend to get made fancy, like Kevin to Kieran. That's why I thought they did it...and they didn't know they'd have to localize Arran till years after that.

It doesn't depend on him appearing in person, or either of them appearing in person. If someone says "Wind Mage Sety guides us all" or "Wind Mage Sety believed in a peaceful solution to all problems" or something, someone could be like, "Wait...which Sety? The freedom fighter or the Crusader?" It would be unnatural to force "Sety the Crusader" into every line of dialogue with the Crusader being mentioned, since no other Crusader would need that to be done.

I mean, you do lose a little continuity with them not sharing the same name, but...I guess they thought that clarity was more important for potential new fans and players.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Extrasolar said:

Well, that requires you to have friends or encounter people also playing FIre Emblem. While Fire Emblem is much more popular in the west than it should be, it's still not amazingly popular that anyone you run into knows what it is or has played it, simply from my experience.

And just speaking personally, even if they are FE fans, there aren't a lot in my general vicinity at any time. Plus, I and lots of other people in the US don't live in crowded cities like most Japanese players do (I live in essentially a suburban/relatively rural area), so the likelihood of running into someone playing it too is very, very low. Also, hearing it second-handed would require people to know fans of FE who themselves have gotten exposure to the original games either through sites like these or something similar. It's not as high a chance as you're implying that it is.

It's just a rather common practice in the series. There are some relatively normal names left, but a good portion of them tend to get made fancy, like Kevin to Kieran. That's why I thought they did it...and they didn't know they'd have to localize Arran till years after that.

It doesn't depend on him appearing in person, or either of them appearing in person. If someone says "Wind Mage Sety guides us all" or "Wind Mage Sety believed in a peaceful solution to all problems" or something, someone could be like, "Wait...which Sety? The freedom fighter or the Crusader?" It would be unnatural to force "Sety the Crusader" into every line of dialogue with the Crusader being mentioned, since no other Crusader would need that to be done.

I mean, you do lose a little continuity with them not sharing the same name, but...I guess they thought that clarity was more important for potential new fans and players.

We live in an era that has the Internet, though. That simplifies, even if not completely.

Again, context is key. To take one of your example quotes, "believed" is past-tense, so unless we know Sety/Ced changed his mind, or has also died, the past-tense should tell you it refers to the long-dead Crusader. And that's if we are using the time of the Jugdral games as time setting. If it was said in the times of the 12 Crusaders, then it defaults to the Crusader, naturally.  Also, Sety the Crusader has the title of Wind User ( Kaze Tsukai ). Sety the PC is either called titles like Prince, and his ending title is Holy Warrior of the Wind ( Kaze no Seisenshi ). In fact, just by referring him with Prince, then you know it's not the Crusader. It's not like it has stopped being canon, since Ced in Awakening still carried the Forseti tome.

[NinjaMonkey]

On ‎08‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 7:43 PM, Res said:

However, the Ace Attorney series did fail in trying to relocate the setting from Japan to the U.S.; many of the cultural references haven't translated and it's become a big joke amongst fans (and doesn't make any sense to newcomers).

There are ways to explain that, such as, in the AA universe there was an influx of Japanese immigrants into the USA and, like most immigrants do, they took their culture with them. Also, starting with Justice For All, Capcom replaced references to Japanese culture with Western pop culture references.

Edited March 18, 2017 by NinjaMonkey

[Tetragrammaton]

7 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

you're taught to assume that the audience are morons

This is definitely the answer.

While, it's common that the royal Henry I and II or Richard I and II use the same name, I think your audience are absolutely morons to not recognize Sety I and Ced I are not the same person.

[Extrasolar]

7 hours ago, hanhnn said:

This is definitely the answer.

While, it's common that the royal Henry I and II or Richard I and II use the same name, I think your audience are absolutely morons to not recognize Sety I and Ced I are not the same person.

And there will be always people who will confuse them if they are given the same name. Unless you called him "Sety II," then people exist that will think you're talking about the same guy when referring to his ancestor and get confused. People will misconstrue or be confused about everything and anything that isn't 1100% directly stated/differentiated, and you can't have that when clarity is the key to immersion. It's easy to realize that Richard I and Richard II are different people just based on the Roman numeral alone.

14 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

We live in an era that has the Internet, though. That simplifies, even if not completely.

Again, context is key. To take one of your example quotes, "believed" is past-tense, so unless we know Sety/Ced changed his mind, or has also died, the past-tense should tell you it refers to the long-dead Crusader. And that's if we are using the time of the Jugdral games as time setting. If it was said in the times of the 12 Crusaders, then it defaults to the Crusader, naturally.  Also, Sety the Crusader has the title of Wind User ( Kaze Tsukai ). Sety the PC is either called titles like Prince, and his ending title is Holy Warrior of the Wind ( Kaze no Seisenshi ). In fact, just by referring him with Prince, then you know it's not the Crusader. It's not like it has stopped being canon, since Ced in Awakening still carried the Forseti tome.

I mean, there are plenty of ways that they can write around it, try to make it as clear as possible, but at the end of the day, there will always be someone out there who will be confused and misconstrue two characters with the same name, and that's the guy we're taught to cater to, to make sure that he or she is not confused and their experience isn't jeopardized because of it.

I'm not saying that it's good that we're taught to treat people like morons, but it's what we do. It's all about safety. We want to make absolute, absolute sure that no one can be confused by these two characters, so giving them two different names at the end of the day is the safest option.

[Acacia Sgt]

13 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I mean, there are plenty of ways that they can write around it, try to make it as clear as possible, but at the end of the day, there will always be someone out there who will be confused and misconstrue two characters with the same name, and that's the guy we're taught to cater to, to make sure that he or she is not confused and their experience isn't jeopardized because of it.

I'm not saying that it's good that we're taught to treat people like morons, but it's what we do. It's all about safety. We want to make absolute, absolute sure that no one can be confused by these two characters, so giving them two different names at the end of the day is the safest option.

Well, the writers of Genealogy certainly were taught otherwise, else they wouldn't have made both called Sety back in 1996 in the first place.

I mean, if we can get evidece right now that people in Japan are getting the two mixed up (since to this day both are still Sety over there), then I could agree with your point. On the other hand, despite so, both people are still called Sety. And it's not like Genealogy isn't big over there. Mayne not to the extent of MotE/NMotE, but still quite well known.

[Extrasolar]

18 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, the writers of Genealogy certainly were taught otherwise, else they wouldn't have made both called Sety back in 1996 in the first place.

I mean, if we can get evidece right now that people in Japan are getting the two mixed up (since to this day both are still Sety over there), then I could agree with your point. On the other hand, despite so, both people are still called Sety. And it's not like Genealogy isn't big over there. Mayne not to the extent of MotE/NMotE, but still quite well known.

Well, obviously that's not 100% of the case all the time, and it's not like characters never, ever have the same names. I'm just telling you what I've been taught since 2014. I'm sure that Japan and America have different practices or beliefs when it comes to naming characters and such. And I'm sure things have changed, even slightly, since 20 years ago.

I mean, I can't tell you 100% why they changed it, I'm just giving you my best guess based on what I've learned, and also based on what has been the common localization practice over the years.

[Tetragrammaton]

My assumption is that the American players are indeed more moronic than Japanese players.

That's the same reason why the localized games are usually more easier than original JP games.

[eclipse]

43 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

My assumption is that the American players are indeed more moronic than Japanese players.

That's the same reason why the localized games are usually more easier than original JP games.

You're on an American-based forum.  So either learn how to express yourself more diplomatically, or keep it to yourself.

[Tetragrammaton]

13 minutes ago, eclipse said:

You're on an American-based forum.  So either learn how to express yourself more diplomatically, or keep it to yourself.

It's not my fault to think that way.

As Extrasolar said, it is how the game designers were taught at schools.

Edited March 22, 2017 by hanhnn

[eclipse]

9 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

It's not my fault to think that way.

As Extrasolar said, it is how the game designers were taught at schools.

Yes.  Yes, it is.  You choose your thoughts, and you choose whether or not to post them.

To claim otherwise means that you have no place in this subforum.  So choose your next words wisely.

[Emeraldfox]

I don't care just let me play my game.

 

Even if there are changes that I think are silly, they wouldn't change how I feel or how much I enjoy it.

[Augestein]

On 3/22/2017 at 4:17 AM, hanhnn said:

My assumption is that the American players are indeed more moronic than Japanese players.

That's the same reason why the localized games are usually more easier than original JP games.

Except that's not entirely true. The localizations may be different at moments, but most of the changes aren't to make things easier, they are because they weren't well received in Japan, and sometimes it's meant to be things that were there in the first place but not added. 

Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones for instance uses 2x damage for might bonus instead of 3, which doesn't actually make the game easier-- in many instances, it makes the games more difficult. How does "Lyndis getting a unique animation in the localization" make the game easier? I guess if Lyndis' sweet animation is better to look at, it does make it easier to stomach watching her attacks. And hilariously enough, the localized change ends up being used in Path of Radiance. Which would lead me to believe that they wanted to see how the audience would receive the global changes. 

And some games like Streets of Rage 3 are infamous for being harder than their Japanese counterparts. Bare Knuckle 3 is an incredibly easy game, with 5 difficulties. Streets of Rage 3 on the other hand, is easily the most difficult one in the franchise and added about 3 new ways to not "win" the game perfectly. It also removed difficulties from the game-- the two of which it chose were the easiest difficulties, gave damage boosts to enemies as well as movement speeds, removed 1ups from the Japanese version, and made "Easy" mode (the closest gauge to the difficulty being Normal), doesn't even allow you to finish the game and instead mocks you for being a wuss and playing easy mode. 

Contra games also are objectively harder in the US over Japan as well. I'm of the mindset that the games that are more difficult in Japan are more difficult due to a lack of playtesting and shoving the game out the door, not because they are of the mindset that Americans are stupid. If that was the case, they wouldn't make their action games-- which give far less time for thinking ,or pattern recognition  intentionally more difficult. 

And realistically, it's generally taught in writing to not have people have the same names, let alone have the same letters for names if you can help it. IE, Anna, Bob, Cathy, Dan, so the localizations changing this up may not be because people are "stupid" but because the localization team though that the original translations made a poor decision.