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Skill Inheritance Discussion.


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6 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

Actually does Draconic Aura take into account effective atk or just displayed atk? I can get Nino to hit 54 displayed, but she can go as high as 70 with my build. LoD2 Nino only really has 22 res unbuffed and 26 buffed, so the res procs don't feel that great for how I'm using her.

It takes into account all buffs, but not weapon triangle or effective damage modifiers.

I don't think I've ever actually tested if it takes Blade tome bonuses into account.

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1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yes. At low health, as long as the opponent is capable of counterattacking, you will automatically make a follow-up hit.

Basically, you will automatically double attack the opponent as long as the opponent can attack at melee range. If the opponent out-speeds you, both sides will double attack, taking turns to attack.

As a reminder, Brave weapons work by having "every attack hit two times". Brave weapons don't change the order of combat, they just mean you land two hits every time you would normally have landed one.

Okay, so that's how it works. I guess I never noticed since while training units, I sometimes just tap the screen to speed things up, thus, skipping seeing Brash Assault's effect with Bartre or Hinata whenever they're low on HP. And then I got confused even more since I read that Desperation requires that you can double -- I think this one was from a thread about Cherche and someone asking why not have Desperation on her -- to have it work while Brash Assault and Quick Riposte don't.

As for the Brave weapons thing, yeah, I know, that's why I was wondering if Desperation would be a good idea since it would let Raven double, thus, doing 4 total hits if his HP is within the threshold. With his base attack and speed, that's going to be a ton of damage. I think I just worded it poorly by saying "quadruple". It's also the thing that worries me since if Raven gets attacked, then Brave Axe is basically a Steel Axe and whatever follow-up Raven could have depends on if he outspeeds them or if he even lives to make another hit. Kind of why I'd rather make use of Raven's decently high base attack and give him an Emerald Axe or Silver Axe, but doing so might make it more worth it to have a different B-slot skill than Desperation which would be more fitting for a very aggressive Raven.

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7 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Okay, so that's how it works. I guess I never noticed since while training units, I sometimes just tap the screen to speed things up, thus, skipping seeing Brash Assault's effect with Bartre or Hinata whenever they're low on HP. And then I got confused even more since I read that Desperation requires that you can double -- I think this one was from a thread about Cherche and someone asking why not have Desperation on her -- to have it work while Brash Assault and Quick Riposte don't.

As for the Brave weapons thing, yeah, I know, that's why I was wondering if Desperation would be a good idea since it would let Raven double, thus, doing 4 total hits if his HP is within the threshold. With his base attack and speed, that's going to be a ton of damage. I think I just worded it poorly by saying "quadruple". It's also the thing that worries me since if Raven gets attacked, then Brave Axe is basically a Steel Axe and whatever follow-up Raven could have depends on if he outspeeds them or if he even lives to make another hit. Kind of why I'd rather make use of Raven's decently high base attack and give him an Emerald Axe or Silver Axe, but doing so might make it more worth it to have a different B-slot skill than Desperation which would be more fitting for a very aggressive Raven.

HEAVILY depends on which Raven you have!  Regardless, he'll need to be in Defiant Spd range.

If you have my amazing luck and wound up with a -Spd Raven, don't do this.  34 Speed (after Defiant Spd) isn't enough to justify it IMO.  It's an option for neutral, since he'll be at 37 Spd.  If you somehow wound up with +Spd Raven, then definitely, because 40 Spd is pretty good.

EDIT: The one exception is +Spd/-Atk, where Life or Death will take the place of Defiant Spd.  It'll fix his bane, while giving him 38 Speed to play with.  Shove a Speed boost on him and watch him wreck face (until Tharja ruins his day).

Edited by eclipse
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5 minutes ago, Kaden said:

As for the Brave weapons thing, yeah, I know,

Wasn't really targeted at the "quadruple" thing, more just a friendly reminder to keep people from asking the usual "wait, what happens when I have [some skill] and a Brave weapon, do I get [insert number that isn't 2 or 4] attacks?" kind of question.

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26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It takes into account all buffs, but not weapon triangle or effective damage modifiers.

I don't think I've ever actually tested if it takes Blade tome bonuses into account.

I would do it, but I'll need another 50 sp or so. Alas.

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29 minutes ago, eclipse said:

HEAVILY depends on which Raven you have!  Regardless, he'll need to be in Defiant Spd range.

If you have my amazing luck and wound up with a -Spd Raven, don't do this.  34 Speed (after Defiant Spd) isn't enough to justify it IMO.  It's an option for neutral, since he'll be at 37 Spd.  If you somehow wound up with +Spd Raven, then definitely, because 40 Spd is pretty good.

EDIT: The one exception is +Spd/-Atk, where Life or Death will take the place of Defiant Spd.  It'll fix his bane, while giving him 38 Speed to play with.  Shove a Speed boost on him and watch him wreck face (until Tharja ruins his day).

And that's where his def bane comes into play! :p

How hilarious, the first Raven I've summoned had +Spd/-Atk. Still hit harder and was more useful than +Def/-Atk Barst who struggled to do anything. Attack bane is the WORST. Second Raven was a 4* with +Atk/-HP. All right, but I have a ton of -HP units that it infuriates me and the second Raven was summoned with third Raven, the 5* +Res/-Def one. Yeah, I'd rather use the 5* purely because he has access to Brave Axe+. Why couldn't you have been a different green or better, a non-green unit? Hey, at least I have a lot of angry edgelords with pretty good skills that I can pass on to others. They totally made Raven into an edgelord in the Blazing Sword paralogue where he is a jerk to Lucius and goes on a tirade about revenge in front of his little sister. Weird because the Raven people can summon seems to be a post-Blazing Sword Raven who kind of gave up on revenge and is a better, but still bitter person.

I guess with the Desperation idea, +Spd/-Res would probably be the best nature. Maybe -Def or -HP, but that's annoying to deal with. Definitely not -Atk. Average is of course, the safest route. Otherwise, not having Raven use a Brave Axe, so his speed doesn't take a -5 penalty would work too, but you'd need to find another weapon and another unit to sack. -Spd might work with this one since he'd have a still respectable 30 speed as a level 40, 4*.

27 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Wasn't really targeted at the "quadruple" thing, more just a friendly reminder to keep people from asking the usual "wait, what happens when I have [some skill] and a Brave weapon, do I get [insert number that isn't 2 or 4] attacks?" kind of question.

Oh, okay. Wait, do people really think that? Brave weapons have "attack twice while initiating combat" which is different from what the other skills say about "follow-up attacks".

Anyway, has anyone tried to fix Odin? I don't think it's possible. The fact he's using the highest MT regular tome and he still has one of the lowest total attack is an issue in of itself. You can make him better, but he's still going to pale in comparison to... every unit in the game.

Edited by Kaden
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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

It takes into account all buffs, but not weapon triangle or effective damage modifiers.

I don't think I've ever actually tested if it takes Blade tome bonuses into account.

 

1 hour ago, Thor Odinson said:

I would do it, but I'll need another 50 sp or so. Alas.

Okay I went and did it. Got Nino the 50 sp. It does takes Gronnblade bonuses into account.

So I went to a lv 1 map. Took 0 damage from this green mook for 5 turns straight and buffed Nino up to 70 atk. With Gronnblade bonuses she does 91 damage before res (70*1.3), and 86 if it's not taken into account (70+54*.3)

Mook had 2 res, and took 89 damage. So yeah, it stacks.

Edited by Thor Odinson
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2 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

 

Okay I went and did it. Got Nino the 50 sp. It does takes Gronnblade bonuses into account.

So I went to a lv 1 map. Took 0 damage from this green mook for 5 turns straight and buffed Nino up to 70 atk. With Gronnblade bonuses she does 91 damage before res (70*1.3), and 86 if it's not taken into account (70+53*.3)

Mook had 2 res, and took 89 damage. So yeah, it stacks.

Thanks for confirming.

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15 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

Okay I went and did it. Got Nino the 50 sp. It does takes Gronnblade bonuses into account.

So I went to a lv 1 map. Took 0 damage from this green mook for 5 turns straight and buffed Nino up to 70 atk. With Gronnblade bonuses she does 91 damage before res (70*1.3), and 86 if it's not taken into account (70+54*.3)

Mook had 2 res, and took 89 damage. So yeah, it stacks.

Good to know. Much appreciated for confirming. Welcome to the scientists' guild.

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Is there any way to make Niles at least somewhat good with skill inheritance? I've got one with an ideal nature (+Spd/-Def) and been considering upgrading him to 5*s next time I hit 20k feathers since I have no one else to unlock potential for.

I'm going to wait until the new banner of course in case I pull a unit more worthy of an upgrade but he is one of my favourite characters and my Conquest daddy so hmmm. Plus I think investing into a character you like rather than go by tier lists is kinda dope.

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A brave weapon is always good, so give Niles a Brave Bow for a chance to do x4 attacks. Glacies uses his high Res stat so I think you can keep that as is.

For assist, you can choose Swap (useful for tight spaces) or Pivot (for escaping approaching melee units or hit-and-run tactics when used with a Dancer). That or a Rally/Reciprocal Aid if you keep Niles as a kiting unit.

A slot- Warding Blow makes him a good mage killer but if you want something different, maybe Death Blow for more damage output against all units.

Close Counter is always good for ranged units if you have a spare Takumi and can be used with Vantage to annoy people before getting killed. Otherwise, Fury also has a bit of synergy with Vantage plus gives you stat boosts across the board.

B slot- Desperation works as long as you keep him healthy. Otherwise, using say, Fury, then Vantage works, too. Other options include the always useful Wings of Mercy or a breaker of your choice depending on what your team is weak to.

C slot- Breath of Life can work with Wings of Mercy for some small healing bonus to your ally. Savage Blow if you want a more offensive route and is good at punishing groups. Otherwise, Threaten Defense/Speed also supports your other teammates.

 

If you want him to focus on his strengths as a bow version of Felicia, this set works as a Wings of Mercy Mage killer that also heals the low-health ally that you teleported to.

-Brave Bow+

-Reciprocal Aid

-Glacies

-Warding Blow/Death Blow

-Wings of Mercy

-Breath of Life

Otherwise if you want a more offensive, sniper version of the above, then swap Breath of Life with Savage Blow and definitely go with Death Blow. You can then change the assist to something like Rally Attack/Speed or Shove/Smite, depending if you want to go for offensive momentum or for more movement coverage for your teammate.

Edited by mcsilas
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13 minutes ago, mcsilas said:

A brave weapon is always good, so give Niles a Brave Bow for a chance to do x4 attacks. Glacies uses his high Res stat so I think you can keep that as is.

For assist, you can choose Swap (useful for tight spaces) or Pivot (for escaping approaching melee units or hit-and-run tactics when used with a Dancer). That or a Rally/Reciprocal Aid if you keep Niles as a kiting unit.

A slot- Warding Blow makes him a good mage killer but if you want something different, maybe Death Blow for more damage output against all units.

Close Counter is always good for ranged units if you have a spare Takumi and can be used with Vantage to annoy people before getting killed. Otherwise, Fury also has a bit of synergy with Vantage plus gives you stat boosts across the board.

B slot- Desperation works as long as you keep him healthy. Otherwise, using say, Fury, then Vantage works, too. Other options include the always useful Wings of Mercy or a breaker of your choice depending on what your team is weak to.

C slot- Breath of Life can work with Wings of Mercy for some small healing bonus to your ally. Savage Blow if you want a more offensive route and is good at punishing groups. Otherwise, Threaten Defense/Speed also supports your other teammates.

 

If you want him to focus on his strengths as a bow version of Felicia, this set works as a Wings of Mercy Mage killer that also heals the low-health ally that you teleported to.

-Brave Bow+

-Reciprocal Aid

-Glacies

-Warding Blow/Death Blow

-Wings of Mercy

-Breath of Life

 

**Post hijack inbound**

Nile's natural attack is too low to take advantage of a brave bow as well as Gordin or Klein. Assuming you wanted him to fill that niche, though, he would have to take Death Blow over Warding Blow for +12 attack.

Close Counter is not only expensive but also a poor option on such as set as well. Niles has low physical bulk and brave reduces his speed, which leaves him even more vulnerable to enemy units than usual.

What stat spread is your Niles in question? He really needs a +Atk roll if you want to use him viably, since that puts him at 38 attack at Lv. 40 with  brave bow equipped. Factoring in Death Blow, that becomes 44 attack.

There is one alternative I can suggest over Death Blow, but it's expensive and done better by other bow users assuming you want a good one for arena: Life and Death. +5 Spe neutralizes the brave penalty and leaves him at his default 34 speed. However, +Spe puts him at 37, which is not bad at all for a brave user. Combine that with Desperation--as well as Reciprocal Aid / Ardent Sacrifice to take him below the threshold--and he has solid damage output with his special and 4x attack that is unaffected by the weapon triangle. @hunty, May I suggest the following set?

Niles @ Brave Bow+ (+Spe -HP / Def)

Life and Death 3

Desperation

Any, but preferably Threaten Defense 3

Ardent Sacrifice or Reciprocal Aid

Iceberg

Edited by MrSmokestack
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Fliers already have Iote's Shield to protect them from arrows. Unless you're more interested in the doubling effect, which can be replaced by a Brave Weapon?

As for Bowbreaker if you had to inherit it, I guess it would be good for your ranged units as insurance against faster archers like Setsuna. Maybe a Poison Dagger user to ensure the kill against archers? 

Or a Raven tome user (Robin/Henry), with Triangle Adept as a sure counter to archers? (Although they probably want other skills for B slots).

 

edit: Ah, I forgot about Brave Bow's Speed lowering effect. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of more attacks + faster charging time for Glacies.

 

 

Edited by mcsilas
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On 3/27/2017 at 0:17 AM, Ice Dragon said:

With a Silver Axe+, Moonbow, Distant Counter, and Quick Riposte for a guaranteed double attack, [+Spd, -Def] Camilla's match-ups against vanilla mages looks like this:

  • Survives neutral Leo and Raigh and kills on player phase. Cannot kill +Def versions on player phase without an Atk buff.
  • Survives neutral Sophia and Henry, but cannot kill on player phase. Cannot survive another round of attacks from Sophia, but can survive Henry. Cannot win either engagement without support.

I'm using these (as well as the other calcs listed in the original post) to make a build for Camilla on the FE Heroes wiki and just wanted to throw it out there that Camilla can KO everyone mentioned here except Henry on player phase after Threaten Defense, so... that's pretty cool and I guess that cements that as her best C-skill lol. 

Borrowing the calcs as well btw (and giving credit ofc), hope that's cool

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Thanks a lot @MrSmokestack and @mcsilas! I currently do not have the right units in order to pass on Death Blow but LaD3 would actually be a possibility and works better with his +Spd nature I'm assuming? Pulled a -Spd Jaffar this banner I am willing to sacrifice but still have to consider whether it is worth me giving up one of the most valuable skills in the game right now as some of my other units might appreciate it more. I will wait a bit and see what the new banner brings but making Niles viable is definitely a project I want to focus on in the near future.

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Today I look at Stahl 5* Stat. I cry a little.

This is really awfully bad. I dont even know how to build him anymore.

 

I am a Stahl fan from awakening but looking at his hero stats is just sad. When you put him next to Cordelia... he loses in like everything except HP (Lol), DEF.
If only there's a HP skill to remove them.

 

The best build I came up with is
+Atk/-HP (-HP is literally the only thing you have to rely on)


Wo Dao+, MoonBow, Fury, SwordBreaker...
this is bad.

 

 

Are there any other Saizo build. The one I have is Poison Dagger+, Close Counter, Vantage. (Pretty much a slightly tankier/weaker Takumi build)

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59 minutes ago, Lucıůs said:

Hi! What skills are ideal for Tiki(Y), Raven, and Klein? :): I don't exactly recall what their Boons/Banes are though...

Klein: Swap glacies for iceberg for a faster trigger.

Savage blow or Breath of life or a fortify skill in particular on the C

I like pivot so he can dive out of danger when he's low, assuming he lives a hit anyway heh

Life and Death 3 on Raven instead of defiant speed

Threaten attack, I'm not too sure about

Renewal + Sol equals maximum recovery

I didn't look up any stats or do any calculations so this sets might be trash

Edited by Arcanite
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1 hour ago, Ryuke said:

Are there any other Saizo build. The one I have is Poison Dagger+, Close Counter, Vantage. (Pretty much a slightly tankier/weaker Takumi build)

i posted a support AOE debuffer Saizo with Savage Blow/Smoke Dagger/Death Blow/Threaten speed/Growing Wind here if you're interested: 

 
Although it seems like you have a pretty good frontliner Saizo, too. Maybe Threaten Speed for the last slot? He'll be even more like Takumi but it's good team support.
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18 minutes ago, mcsilas said:

i posted a support AOE debuffer Saizo with Savage Blow/Smoke Dagger/Death Blow/Threaten speed/Growing Wind here if you're interested: 

 
Although it seems like you have a pretty good frontliner Saizo, too. Maybe Threaten Speed for the last slot? He'll be even more like Takumi but it's good team support.

Yeah. It's really hard to sacrifice Kagero. Espeicially when you love both of them.

 

I like your Saizo build. I like Moonbow... if there's a 2 Turn BonFire (or Bonfire) it will be amazing. Bonfire use your def. Saizo is known to have high def for dagger. (Though you might do less to Effie). Death Blow is better if you are relying on Bonfire...but at the same time.. Life and Death power up Saizo like crazy. I hope there's another weapon for him (Brave)..

 

It's weird dagger not having a brave weapon. You think its easier to throw dagger(shuriken) than bow.

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3 hours ago, Arcanite said:

Klein: Swap glacies for iceberg for a faster trigger.

Savage blow or Breath of life or a fortify skill in particular on the C

I like pivot so he can dive out of danger when he's low, assuming he lives a hit anyway heh

Life and Death 3 on Raven instead of defiant speed

Threaten attack, I'm not too sure about

Renewal + Sol equals maximum recovery

I didn't look up any stats or do any calculations so this sets might be trash

Thanks a bunch! What's a good B skill for Raven? Was thinking of drag back so it would provide extra positioning and evasion since he's more likely to be a glass cannon. *Sigh* Wish I could pull a 4☆ Fae for the Renewal 3. Eldigan also needs that skill but so far, I've no luck in pulling her. :(:

 

Any recommendations for Young Tiki? I think she offers a good utility as tank and attacker while also pocket-healing her teammates. Looks like a pretty solid unit (of course, not until a Falchion user appears on the map). 

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28 minutes ago, Lucıůs said:

Thanks a bunch! What's a good B skill for Raven? Was thinking of drag back so it would provide extra positioning and evasion since he's more likely to be a glass cannon. *Sigh* Wish I could pull a 4☆ Fae for the Renewal 3. Eldigan also needs that skill but so far, I've no luck in pulling her. :(:

 

Any recommendations for Young Tiki? I think she offers a good utility as tank and attacker while also pocket-healing her teammates. Looks like a pretty solid unit (of course, not until a Falchion user appears on the map). 

Now for b skills I'm at a loss, if you can't get renewal. Drag back is only good if he's able to survive a hit back, which he probably won't since he has no defenses. For the B you might just have to put vantage so if he does live a hit he can talk back and smack them up before they have a chance. You can alternatively keep defiant speed so this way his defenses won't be Dusseldorf'd as much. This way vantage will actually be a little more nice. He loses out on the neutralizing effect of Life and Death + Brave ax but at least he can take a hit. If that is what you opt for then moon bow might work better in combination with Vantage.

Young tiki: Sword breaker, Fury, Sol, Reposition or just sword breaker and reposition. These sets basically explain themselves lol

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5 hours ago, Lucıůs said:

Hi! What skills are ideal for Tiki(Y), Raven, and Klein? :): I don't exactly recall what their Boons/Banes are though...

I'm actually going to suggest some different skills than Arcanite.

Klein: While the lower CD of Iceberg is usually favored on characters over the higher damage of Glacies, Klein is a Brave weapon user. Since all of his attacks happen in sets of 2, he'll trigger Glacies during the same round of combat he would have triggered Iceberg, in which case you'd prefer the additional damage. I'm personally not a fan of his default Quick Riposte because it's a skill reliant on tanking hits during the enemy phase, which runs counter to Klein's player phase nuke playstyle. Instead, I'd recommend a breaker skill, such as Swordbreaker, to help him ORKO units he wouldn't normally be able to (since it would let him hit 4 times instead of 2, regardless of the speed difference). 

Raven: While Life and Death is an okay skill on Raven, I personally think Raven would do better with Death Blow if you can get it. Brave weapon users in general are meant to be played as player phase nukes, so you want to optimize their damage on your turn as much as you can. Death Blow in particular is extra good because the bonus attack will be added to both of the Brave hits, allowing you to get more out of the skill than a non-Brave unit. For his B slot, I like Wings of Mercy to let him teleport around the map, but if you did decide to go with Arcanite's Life and Death suggestion, another option would be Desperation to take advantage of his relatively decent speed and attack opponents 4 times before they can react. 

Tiki: I'm not actually sure about Tiki, so I'll let someone more knowledgeable, like @Ryu Yuki give it a shot. Either way though, I would personally recommend giving her Lightning Breath+ from her adult form if you can, as the innate Distant Counter is generally more useful than the extra damage from Flametongue. For her special, I personally don't find the Growing or Blazing specials to be particularly useful given how unlikely it is you'll manage to get off a 5-charge special in most Arena matches (especially on a character as slow as Tiki), so I would replace it with a lower CD offensive special, such as Moonbow. Noontime is another option if you'd prefer healing over damage. Her B-slot depends a lot on what else your team already covers. In general, Quick Riposte is a good, safe option, especially for slower but bulkier units like she is. However, if you don't already have a reliable way to deal with Falchions, then Swordbreaker is a good option to allow her to deal with those units. Alternatively, if you have a good blue anti-sword unit but don't have a reliable way to deal with Julia, consider giving her G Tomebreaker and Triangle Adept. If you can deal with both just fine, then I would probably suggest Quick Riposte. If Julia is not an issue, I think Fury is probably the best overall A-slot skill to give Tiki as she benefits quite a bit from all of the stat boosts, given her balanced stats across the board. 

Assist skills are extremely variable, and you can work with just about anything on anyone. Swap and Draw Back are probably the most overall solid assist skills to have on anyone while Pivot is extra useful on armored units (that doesn't apply for these characters but just in general). Reposition is another option, more for ranged units like Klein than melee units, to allow you to throw a melee unit in front of you to tank a hit if need be, though Swap often does that just fine. If you choose to go the LoD/Desperation route on Raven, consider Ardent Sacrifice as his assist skill to help him get into Desperation range. 

C-skills in general are also heavily dependent on what your team is since they're more for team utility than for the individual unit in question. I think Raven's default Threaten Def and Tiki's default Breath of Life are fine, though for Tiki you could consider either Threaten Atk to help her stay alive or Hone Atk to benefit Raven and/or Klein's Brave attacks. As a ranged unit, Klein would benefit more from a C-skill like Savage Blow than the melee units, but you could also give him a skill like Spur Atk or Def to help out Raven and Tiki. 

Anyways, this was a lot of information, but I hope you find it at least somewhat helpful!

EDIT: Just added slight changes (mostly color) to make it easier to find information for each of the specific characters. 

Double EDIT: You didn't ask, but I personally think a dancer like Olivia has amazing synergy with a team like this. Dancers in general are a lot more player phase oriented, and I consider them a Brave unit's best friend. They can either let them Brave someone in the face twice (which basically guarantees a kill), they could let the Brave unit delete a unit and then retreat out of range of the other enemies, or if you're feeling extra ballsy, you can delete two units in one turn. As a bonus, Olivia comes with Hone Atk, which benefits Brave units considerably. 

Edited by MaskedAmpharos
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