Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Long answer:

@BANRYU

Continuing on because I can:

The highest Atk you can expect to have on a consistent basis is +Atk Effie with a Silver Lance+ and Death Blow 3 with Hone Armor and 2 stacks of Goad Armor. Anything more than this requires more setup than can be considered to be "on a consistent basis".

With this setup, Effie has 78 Atk. In order for Glimmer to out-damage Draconic Aura, the enemy needs to have less than

• 44 Def at weapon triangle advantage with Triangle Adept 3. The attack deals at least 97 damage.
• 38 Def at weapon triangle advantage. The attack deals at least 82 damage.
• 32 Def at neutral weapon triangle. The attack deals at least 69 damage.
• 26 Def at weapon triangle disadvantage. The attack deals at least 55 damage.
• 19 Def at weapon triangle disadvantage with Triangle Adept 3. The attack deals at least 42 damage.

Which basically means that any situation where Glimmer deals more damage than Draconic Aura, either one would probably have killed the enemy, making Draconic Aura still the superior choice between the two.

If units had higher HP on average (around 70 or more) with the same Atk, Def, and Res values we have right now, Glimmer would actually be useful on units with extremely high Atk (around 70 or higher), but since almost all relevant units have HP in or near the 35-45 range, the window where Glimmer does more damage than Draconic Aura, but isn't overkill, is simply too small to matter.

[Xaos Steel Wing]

36 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Short answer: No.

Long answer:

(snip)

Which means Glimmer is never the best option. Ever.

Now we know.

I'm glad my little mix-up with abilities ended up resulting in some productive discussion.

[Kaden]

Y'know, it's quite sad that Glimmer and Astra are pretty useless. Might have been an obvious idea, but had they used your character's speed like Bonfire, Draconic Aura, and Iceberg uses your other stats, it might have worked out better. Except Beruka would need a different special since her speed isn't that good.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Kaden

[salinea]

8 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Y'know, it's quite sad that Glimmer and Astra are pretty useless. Might have been an obvious idea, but had they used your character's speed like Bonfire, Draconic Aura, and Iceberg uses your other stats, it might have worked out better. Except Beruka would need a different special since her speed isn't that good.

Yeah using Speed would be a nice fix, if they're willing to make that sort of shift to rules. As it is they're just worse than other skills, which is sad.

[Kaden]

15 minutes ago, salinea said:

Yeah using Speed would be a nice fix, if they're willing to make that sort of shift to rules. As it is they're just worse than other skills, which is sad.

I could see it happening, but after a massive, "season" update. I doubt they would change units a bit even if some of they struggle or are kind of useless because of other units that were introduced like Beruka is to Michalis. 

If they do make Night Sky skills use speed, it would really help units who have high speed, but nothing else like Setsuna who if it follows the 50% and 80% format, would be guaranteed 18 damage with Glimmer/Night Sky or 29 damage with Astra because of her neutral 37 speed which is her only good stat compared to the other archers.

Anna, Lon'qu, and Virion would love it too. Anna and Lon'qu are guaranteed 19 additional damage with Night Sky while Virion is guaranteed 15 damage assuming base neutral speeds and they're all 5*.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Kaden

[BANRYU]

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Short answer: No.

Long answer:

[redacted for length]

Which means Glimmer is never the best option. Ever.

Ahh. I thought as much, but it's still nice to know the specific reasons why. Thanks for saving me the trouble of looking into it myself btw. =3= (that might come across as cheeky but I'm quite serious, I don't have nearly as much time for this stuff as I'd like haha)

9 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Ah, well. There was a glimmer of hope.

NICE /rimshot

8 hours ago, Sylphid said:

Which B passive would +atk -spd Kagero like the most? I was considering her default Daggerbreaker or Bowbreaker from Setsuna before, but she OHKOs pretty much all the archers and thieves anyways after I got her to 5* (I wanted Drag Back on her but that didn't quite work out).

In a situation where breakers aren't really helping you and you don't have the speed to run Desperation or the bulk to run Quick Riposte, I would say Escape Route and Wings of Mercy are both cool options you could go with. There's also specific breakers for specific non-infantry units that your team might struggle with, but those are team-dependent and thus up to your discretion. 

EDIT: Depending on your kit, Vantage would also be good; in my case, I run a Reciprocal Aid + Defiant Atk Kagero, so Vantage is pretty ideal for her. 

4 hours ago, Kaden said:

Y'know, it's quite sad that Glimmer and Astra are pretty useless. Might have been an obvious idea, but had they used your character's speed like Bonfire, Draconic Aura, and Iceberg uses your other stats, it might have worked out better. Except Beruka would need a different special since her speed isn't that good.

Yeah I agree, that's a much better idea than what they went with haha ;; Unfortunate. That'd make Astra even better on Lyn as well, haha~ But yeah, it'd be quite bad on poor Beruka. There's always Vengeance or Reprisal I guess....? That'd be cool. Unfortunately though, I have a hard time seeing them changing that. 

Incidentally, on the topic of not-worthwhile procs, Vengeance and Reprisal really should be 80% and 50% of damage taken respectively... As it stands HP pools are far too low for their current percentages to be even remotely viable and that makes me sad. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by BANRYU

[Kaden]

Well, a friend was wondering, so I'll ask for him here: who would want a Wo Dao+? Specifically, since I know Selena would going off of the Selena build DehNutCase made a while back and most sword users who are running the Wall of Fire/Ice and Sharp Things.

Also, because I summoned them and got screwed, what would a -Atk Rebecca and Setsuna want in general? There'll be a day I summon another one of them, so I'm just going to level them up to get their default skills and maybe inherit some others. That and it's fun hearing Setsuna say anything e.g., "Yay...", whenever you choose her on the map.

Probably not going to do a Brave Bow build on either after being crushed by @DehNutCase -- still love you :p -- showing how Setsuna is pretty much... useless and overshadowed by Takumi as she was in Fates apparently.

Oh, and F! Robin's fate is to become a M!Robin, right? Gronnraven+ from Cecilia, T-Adept, etc.

[DehNutCase]

21 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Probably not going to do a Brave Bow build on either after being crushed by @DehNutCase -- still love you :p -- showing how Setsuna is pretty much... useless and overshadowed by Takumi as she was in Fates apparently.

Brave Bow+ on Setsuna is fine, to be honest. Klein-lite is still damn good as a unit, just... not two whole tiers above Klein himself. (Wiki-logic.jpg)

Unfortunately, -atk ruins units, I suggest using starter Virion instead---low offense grays are destined to debuffers at best, and Virion starts with Seal Speed. 31/31 offenses isn't bad either. Strictly worse than TKJ, but =Virion is still probably around =Setsuna's level, except with a better kit. (Silver Bow+ means he hits harder than brave bow users, 31 speed means that he can double the slower units. Seal-speed is also excellent for de-buffing. He's not top tier, but definitely usable.)

Any way to turn Setsuna into Virion-lite would cost more than feathering Virion to 4*, so not much point trying to force it, I think.

Edit: Just realized you want to use Setsuna, I'd still just use the L&D Brave Bow+ build, to be honest. With Luna as a special you still 1RKO half the cast. You can just merge the -Atk to a better nature afterwards, and she'll keep the learned skills. (And unlearned, but inherited skills).

21 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Well, a friend was wondering, so I'll ask for him here: who would want a Wo Dao+? Specifically, since I know Selena would going off of the Selena build DehNutCase made a while back and most sword users who are running the Wall of Fire/Ice and Sharp Things.

Wo Dao+ is just an excellent sword in general, if you can proc a special every other hit it has effectively 18 MT, 5 of which ignores weapon triangle. (Good if you're fighting blues, worse if you're fighting greens.) Even every third hit is 16MT, equal to legendary swords.

Any sword unit without a legendary weapon themselves would enjoy having Wo Dao+ for the damage, you really can't go wrong with using it, to be honest.

That said, Karel himself is perfectly fine as a unit, so if you don't have any sword you really want to favor, it's fine to just run Karel.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by DehNutCase

[ILikeKirbys]

@Kaden Well, you could try Gronnblade on F!Robin for a Gronnblade-tank-esque unit. If you put Fury 3 in the A Slot (with F!Robin's DEF, Fury 3 and a Fortify/Rally DEF would give her 36 DEF, which is a substantial amount on a 32-SPD (36 with Rally/Hone SPD) unit), Quick Riposte in the B Slot (F!Robin is fast enough to avoid getting doubled by anything below 37 (41 with Hone SPD) SPD, but she won't be doubling much either, so let's give her the ability to always double at high HP, because it charges skills faster when you double), Threaten RES in the C Slot (so F!Robin can deal a little more damage, in case something survives getting doubled by Gronnblade), the HP +3 Sacred Seal (prolongs Quick Riposte: you could also go with ATK +1 if F!Robin needs that more tho), and either Sol (buffed F!Robin would probably get substantial healing out of this, and Quick Riposte means even with a 5-turn cooldown F!Robin will probably get it at least once per map, and it could help push Robin back into QR range when Fury pushes her out of it), I could see her being a fairly competent counter to archers and daggers (and maybe Blue mages, since she gets WTA over them and that might help her survive a hit or two from them) while still being able to nuke fairly well. I would recommend bringing a Dancer (to give F!Robin extra shots with her Gronnblade nuke, as well as just general Dance utility) and a unit that can easily handle Reds (primarily Red Tome users and the Tikis, since they target F!Robin's lower RES, but if they can beat swordies for her that's great too) if you go with this, with the fourth slot being a Red unit (to take out Greens, though I'm not sure if you'll need this). Dunno if this would actually work, it's just a thought.

Of course, Gronnraven/TAdept/XBreaker would work too, as M!Robin proves (though instead of countering swordies, Tikis and possibly red mages, as well as Takumi and maybe Kagero, you'd be countering the Blue Dragons, lancers and possibly blue mages, as well as Takumi and maybe Kagero). I just wanted to suggest something different.

Edited April 17, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[BANRYU]

Wo Dao seems like one of those weapons that, as DNC said, anyone can run effectively; personally I'd say that units with low Atk (IE Selena and Draug) tend to get the most out of it, and by that I mean they're not necessarily better users of the weapons than any other sword character, but that they stand to gain the most from it VS any other non-legendary sword since they tend to need the most help with damage output. 

EDIT: I think f!Robin can do either really; unlike m!Robin who comes with a good weapon to begin with (making changing it rather expensive and unnecessary), f!Robin pretty much NEEDS a different one, thus either Blade or Raven can be used safely on her, either to the effect of the Raven Adept like m!Robin and/or like a bulky green alternative to Merric, or a more durable Gronnblade user than Cecilia/Nino. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by BANRYU

[Okigen]

Would it be a good idea to give Sharena a brave lance+? I mean, Fensalir is nice but I don't really need its debuff. And Sharena is kinda slow with the base speed of 32 so she can't double Lucina and friends naturally.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

That's a rather big Atk (and Spd) drop for something that could be emulated by taking Swordbreaker. How often are you expected Sharena to initiate, anyway? I find mine is usually just walling.

[Okigen]

4 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

That's a rather big Atk (and Spd) drop for something that could be emulated by taking Swordbreaker. How often are you expected Sharena to initiate, anyway? I find mine is usually just walling.

I have no idea to be honest, never used her in arena before. How good is she at walling? 

She's a bit of an extra in my team at the moment because Eirika can already buff fairly well and Linde can delete all blue/red. Sharena is there just because bonus... I may switch out Eirika and give that buffing role to Sharena though.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Eirika is generally going to be a better buffer than Sharena, though, especially since she can provide triple buffs versus Sharena's double.

While Sharena doesn't have the most amazing defenses, she's overall durable enough to take one or two hits and punish her opponent pretty hard for it. Most of the time she can just finish the enemy off once PP rolls around, so she doesn't have to worry too terribly much about prolonged tanking. If you've got buffed Linde deleting stuff, I doubt Sharena will need to block more than one enemy in most matches.

[Shiro]

My arena team looks like this 

Setsuna +3 with: brave bow / ardent sensor / moonbow / life or death / desperation / No c skill atm

Ephriam + 2 with: siegmund / moonbow / fury / none / none <--- I want to make ephriam like ericka as a buffer like rally res and hone speed for julia 

Julia +3 with: Blade tome / life or death / none / none (Little sp cause of balde tome) 

for the fourth slot should I run a +3 lyn, +6marth, +6 Ericka, +1nowi, Hector, +1 linde or +9 y tiki and what skill set would run well with this team? Or should I run a tank like caeda and inherit distant counter on her to easily kill ninos and julias/camillas with  ruby sword?

 

What are anyones thoughts on this team? and I am trying to run a low merge team cause all of my high merged units are reds.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Shiro

[ILikeKirbys]

@BANRYU Okay, glad to hear F!Robin can run Gronnblade. I was kinda unsure after I wrote that. Do you think Fury/Quick Riposte/Threaten RES/ Sol or Bonfire is a good set for Gronnblade!F!Robin tho? Or is there a better build?

@Shiro I think Lyn, Marth or Young Tiki would be your best options here, since a Red is what you're missing, so if you want to minimize merges, then Lyn would be your best bet. Also, have you considered Rally SPD and Fortify DEF/RES for Ephraim? It would let him buff 3 stats, and you could have Julia get the SPD buff without keeping the two glued to one another while still letting him buff DEF/RES (whichever one you think is more important for your team).

I like your team tho.

And now, I have a few things that I think belong here:

1) I'm thinking of running this on my neutral Klein:

Brave Bow+ (Pretty much makes Klein, can't remove)
Glacies (Don't see anything he could use better, besides maybe Iceberg)
Death Blow (He comes with it naturally, and it's a great skill for a Player Phase-intensive unit)
Wings of Mercy (To teleport to a wounded ally and aid them by deleting whoever's giving them trouble with his Brave Bow, plus it positions Klein so that he's behind another unit, which is pretty good for him, yeah? Got the idea when I saw WoM on Faye's default set)
Spur ATK/DEF (To support his tank when he teleports to them with a minor stat buff) or Breath of Life (To support his tank when he teleports to them with passive healing)

Any suggestions? Does this seem like a good build to you guys?

2) I'm not sure if +DEF/-SPD or +RES/-SPD is better for Faye, since I have both of those (I got lucky with my pulls today. Very lucky.). +RES would give stronger Icebergs than +DEF's Bonfires, but... can Faye could survive more enemy attacks with +DEF or +RES? Because that's kind of an important factor for me.

3) So, I'm considering this possible build for Faye:

Firesweep Bow+ (Much like Brave+ makes Klein, Firesweep+ is necessary for Faye)
Iceberg (Still stronger than Bonfire, even on +DEF Faye, so it's what I'd go with either way, gives a way for Faye to maybe kill things)
Death Blow (Faye needs it, since she's only getting one shot, it might as well count for as much as possible)
A Breaker (Depends on what my team needs softened up/killed, since Faye can do that safely via Firesweep Bow and it's the only way she'll double with 21 SPD) or Poison Strike (to deal as much extra damage as possible to soften up an enemy for her allies)
Threaten DEF (to make Faye hit slightly harder against enemies who fail to kill her, or attack a unit she's hiding behind) or a Spur (could help allies finish off units she softens up)

Any suggestions? Does this seem like a good build to you guys? I really wanna use Faye, since she's cute and an Arena Bonus unit this season, so any advice would be appreciated.

4) Does anyone besides Faye want the Firesweep Bow? Just curious.

[Shiro]

58 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

 

@Shiro I think Lyn, Marth or Young Tiki would be your best options here, since a Red is what you're missing, so if you want to minimize merges, then Lyn would be your best bet. Also, have you considered Rally SPD and Fortify DEF/RES for Ephraim? It would let him buff 3 stats, and you could have Julia get the SPD buff without keeping the two glued to one another while still letting him buff DEF/RES (whichever one you think is more important for your team).

 

Any suggestions? Does this seem like a good build to you guys?

2) I'm not sure if +DEF/-SPD or +RES/-SPD is better for Faye, since I have both of those (I got lucky with my pulls today. Very lucky.). +RES would give stronger Icebergs than +DEF's Bonfires, but... can Faye could survive more enemy attacks with +DEF or +RES? Because that's kind of an important factor for me.

3) So, I'm considering this possible build for Faye:

Firesweep Bow+ (Much like Brave+ makes Klein, Firesweep+ is necessary for Faye)
Iceberg (Still stronger than Bonfire, even on +DEF Faye, so it's what I'd go with either way, gives a way for Faye to maybe kill things)
Death Blow (Faye needs it, since she's only getting one shot, it might as well count for as much as possible)
A Breaker (Depends on what my team needs softened up/killed, since Faye can do that safely via Firesweep Bow and it's the only way she'll double with 21 SPD) or Poison Strike (to deal as much extra damage as possible to soften up an enemy for her allies)
Threaten DEF (to make Faye hit slightly harder against enemies who fail to kill her, or attack a unit she's hiding behind) or a Spur (could help allies finish off units she softens up)

Any suggestions? Does this seem like a good build to you guys? I really wanna use Faye, since she's cute and an Arena Bonus unit this season, so any advice would be appreciated.

4) Does anyone besides Faye want the Firesweep Bow? Just curious.

I would say no not really firesweep bow isnt that great imo but maybe on a high atk high speed unit that can double itll be kinda like brave bow but without the speed reduction and higher atk.

As for that Klien build I would say overall solid maybe give him an assist skill that like drawback is nice on ranged units. 

Also what would be a good skill set on Lyn? I have 4 of her all lvl 1 and dont know the optimal boon and bane and builds.

[Kaden]

6 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Brave Bow+ on Setsuna is fine, to be honest. Klein-lite is still damn good as a unit, just... not two whole tiers above Klein himself. (Wiki-logic.jpg)

Unfortunately, -atk ruins units, I suggest using starter Virion instead---low offense grays are destined to debuffers at best, and Virion starts with Seal Speed. 31/31 offenses isn't bad either. Strictly worse than TKJ, but =Virion is still probably around =Setsuna's level, except with a better kit. (Silver Bow+ means he hits harder than brave bow users, 31 speed means that he can double the slower units. Seal-speed is also excellent for de-buffing. He's not top tier, but definitely usable.)

Any way to turn Setsuna into Virion-lite would cost more than feathering Virion to 4*, so not much point trying to force it, I think.

Edit: Just realized you want to use Setsuna, I'd still just use the L&D Brave Bow+ build, to be honest. With Luna as a special you still 1RKO half the cast. You can just merge the -Atk to a better nature afterwards, and she'll keep the learned skills. (And unlearned, but inherited skills).

Yeah, I know, since -Atk ruined these units for me: Barst, Cherche, Jaffar, Lon'qu, Ninian -- she's a dancer, but it would have been nice if she had =Atk --, Rebecca, M!Robin, Setsuna, Sophia, and Subaki. It's so freaking annoying, especially if it's the first and only time I've summoned them. It's even worse when they leave enemies with 1 HP because I just know that they would have killed had they not been -Atk. The only units who were able ignore -Atk for me were Bartre and Raven since they're fast enough to still be able to dish out enough damage. And it seems like Jaffar is going to be on that list too, especially with Deathly Dagger and Life & Death helping. The others, no so much, but Barst and Subaki were redeemed by +Atk versions. Anyway, I digress.

Re: Virion:

Spoiler

I do have a Virion and he's a 4*... He was the only archer I had until I finally got another, non-Virion archer in the 21st summon which was a +Atk, -Spd Niles who's doing fine -- my bar is really low for archers right now since I've summoned a total of 4 archers out of 23 summons --, but having -Spd is stopping him from making full use of his +Atk at times. I might want to switch to the quest Niles who is average... Game, really? Why couldn't it have been Gordin? Then Rebecca and Setsuna showed up in the 22nd and 22rd summons respectively both with -Atk; Rebecca is +Def while Setsuna is +Res.

I think Virion would be able to run Setsuna's skills better than she can. Assassin's Bow and Bowbreaker or any -breaker skill would eliminate his good, but not fast enough speed against archers and thieves which would probably be more helpful in GHB and singleplayer than in arena. Having higher HP, defense, and attack helps as well. That said, only one decently leveled Virion at the moment -- I still have the 2 special map Virions who I plan to use one to give Seal Speed to Felicia or someone -- and only one Setsuna.

Re: Rebecca and Setsuna:

Spoiler

Anyway, outside of liking Rebecca, Setsuna, and Virion, I'd like to not have to use Virion since while he's all right and I like him as a character, being stuck with one archer for 21 summons without the hope of getting (a good) one constantly crushed is not fun. I don't like Gordin, Niles, or Takumi as characters, but I would have been happy with them or any other non-Virion archer 15 summon ago.

The main thing is as I said and you said, I'm going to train Rebecca, Setsuna, and Jaffar since eventually another one will come by hopefully with =Atk and by that time I would have at least their default skills which are pretty good for all three. Just a question of what should I pick up along the way since they will have excess SP by then which would be efficient. If I summon a completely average 3* Setsuna, I would just merge the 4*, -Atk, +Res one with to get the default 4* skills taken care of and whatever I decided to give her. Oh look, now Setsuna has at least 540 SP free to spend and if I somehow was able to get her to level 40 as a 3* without getting any skills, she'd have 1080 SP free to spend between being a 3* and 4*.

Unfortunately, there's no special that uses speed like Bonfire using defense which I think could give Setsuna the edge against the others since with neutral speed, she's guaranteed 18 damage while the others only reach 16 or 17 if you used Rebecca and Niles, so a +Atk or maybe a +Spd Quadsuna could keep up instead of trailing behind Jeorge, Klein, and Takumi with that extra burst of damage. Anyway, I guess she'll be stuck with Luna as the safest bet until maybe in the future Glimmer and Astra are changed to used speed or a speed-based special is introduced. C-slot can be anything with Setsuna or anyone in general... I do have a spare 4* Matthew and Setsuna having Hone Speed would make sense. Or if I really wanted to sack 2 Fredericks for some reason, New Moon and Fortify Def 2 and Luna and Fortify Def 3 from the 4* one. I might want to save it for Threaten Attack instead of slapping a C-slot skill just because I can.

The other question is that is there even any other build she could do that is good? I could check, but I can't think of anything other than Firesweep Bow which the other archers could do just as well if not better.

Anything for Rebecca? If she were +Res and not -Atk or -Spd, so, +Res, maybe -Def, -HP, etc., she could have used Iceberg or Glacies instead of Luna. Default skills are good, Silver Bow is fine, and C-slot which... can be anything.

 

6 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Wo Dao+ is just an excellent sword in general, if you can proc a special every other hit it has effectively 18 MT, 5 of which ignores weapon triangle. (Good if you're fighting blues, worse if you're fighting greens.) Even every third hit is 16MT, equal to legendary swords.

Any sword unit without a legendary weapon themselves would enjoy having Wo Dao+ for the damage, you really can't go wrong with using it, to be honest.

That said, Karel himself is perfectly fine as a unit, so if you don't have any sword you really want to favor, it's fine to just run Karel.

I should have asked him specifically what he would want to do. Right now, he's trying to build a +Spd, -Res M!Corrin and Karel's the only one with Desperation at the moment. Another friend quickly advised him to not get rid of Karel just for Desperation of all things. Something about Darting Blow + Desperation on M!Corrin...

Anyway, yeah, Karel's a good unit, but it could be bad like Karel's -Atk which another friend has.

@BANRYU and @ILikeKirbys,

F!Robin's been a pretty good anti-cavalry killer, but yeah. Gronnblade would be good, but I only have one Gronnblade source: one spare Odin who I feel like if Gronnblade were to go to someone, it should be Ursula who I could also give Tomebreaker. I've never summoned Henry or Nino on this file. That and don't you need a specific set-up for -blade tomes? I'd also need to get replace her default Ignis since it would be a 5 charge special. Getting Gronnraven would be easier since I have a couple of Cecilias I could sack -- would be ideal, but expensive to get one to 5* and then give F!Robin a -blade tome. Another problem is if you read a bit from the top about the units screwed by -Atk, the only M!Robin I have is a 4* with -Atk, +Def. He's still stronger than Odin, but it's still a pain in the buttocks. Tanks stuff better, but yeah...

Edited April 18, 2017 by Kaden

[DehNutCase]

53 minutes ago, Kaden said:

The other question is that is there even any other build she could do that is good?

Setsuna does have the advantage of being able to use Galeforce the most times in any given battle. Her damage is so low that even if she kills someone, she'll need all 4 hits to do it.

So now she can hit for 0 damage 8 times instead!

: D

(Actually she dies after getting 6 hits off because she needed to take a counter to charge the first galeforce, and anything that doesn't 1HKO her will 2HKO her. There's a reason you don't sacrifice everything else to pump speed. With no HP, Atk, Def, or Res, she literally has no way to do damage even with specials, Luna is best simply because it functions off the opponent's stat (def) rather than hers.)

Not to mention sacrificing Cordelia or Lyn to give her Galeforce is the same level of derp as sacrificing +Atk Klein to give her Brave Bow+. High speed simply doesn't do anything in this game if you don't have the other stats to back it up---no def or res means you can't abuse the fact that no one doubles you to tank, no atk means you can't even kill with quad hits.

53 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Anything for Rebecca? If she were +Res and not -Atk or -Spd, so, +Res, maybe -Def, -HP, etc., she could have used Iceberg or Glacies instead of Luna. Default skills are good, Silver Bow is fine, and C-slot which... can be anything.

Rebecca is in the Atk tier where she loses 4 Atk rather than 3 with a bane. -Spd\+Atk Rebecca is salvageable (turns her into Virion), -Atk Rebecca is just -_-

If you force it her decent res means she can run Glacies well, but Klein does it better. Like a lot of other archers, you can turn the -spd version into ghetto Klein so long as you run a lot of +Atk buffs, and hand her DB 3 (say... from Klein) or L&D.

53 minutes ago, Kaden said:

I should have asked him specifically what he would want to do. Right now, he's trying to build a +Spd, -Res M!Corrin and Karel's the only one with Desperation at the moment. Another friend quickly advised him to not get rid of Karel just for Desperation of all things. Something about Darting Blow + Desperation on M!Corrin...

Navarre has Desperation.

Karel's spread is good enough that you can just let his sword carry even the -Atk version. (-Atk Karel has more damage than =Atk Selena, and similar bulk.) Corrin has a legendary sword, maybe a bit worse in damage than Wo Dao+, but it's good enough that killing Karel for a marginal increase isn't worth it. (Unless he's a huge whale, but a huge whale would have Shannas.)

 

Can't comment on F!Robin since I joined after her GHB.

 

Blade-tomers don't actually need a lot of set-up, they're decent tomes on their own, and amazing tomes with buffs. Tharja and Nino's spread are good enough that even with 0 buffs, they're still great. Odin is trickier to use, but does have a 'counter-kill everyone' set if you invest Takumi into him (lol) and buff him +4 to all stats---usually you want to just hand his tome to another blue mage.

Edited April 18, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

20 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Odin is trickier to use, but does have a 'counter-kill everyone' set if you invest Hector and +4 to all stats into him (lol)---usually you want to just hand his tome to another blue mage.

Hector gives Distant Counter. Odin wants Close Counter, which comes from Takumi.

[DehNutCase]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Hector gives Distant Counter. Odin wants Close Counter, which comes from Takumi.

Derp. Will fix now.

[ILikeKirbys]

@Shiro Okay, then I'll merge all of my Fayes into one mega-Faye once I figure out whether +DEF or +RES is better on her.

As for Klein, glad you like it! I'll consider Draw Back, or maybe Reposition, for the Assist skill.

For Lyn, I would say +SPD (40 SPD is a very good number, though 37 is great too, but 40 doubles more stuff) or +ATK (gives a total of 47 ATK, which is pretty solid, though 44 is hardly unworkable) is the best boon, with -RES as the best bane.

For a build for Lyn, I would recommend Draconic Aura (for +ATK, since Lyn will reach 50 ATK without buffs while attacking, thus making DracAura deal 15 damage), Luna (for +SPD, since she'll have trouble breaking down bulky enemies without it), or Galeforce (Lyn can deal acceptable damage without an offensive Special skill, so running Galeforce would give her an extra turn, which sounds pretty useful to me) for a Special skill, Death Blow for the A Slot (assuming you have someone you can burn for Death Blow 3, it's better than Defiant ATK because it's always available while attacking and Lyn can get +10 ATK if you give her a Hone ATK 3 buff, or +9 if you just use Siegmund's ATK buff), Brash Assault for the B Slot (Lyn has Desperation 2 built into her Sol Katti, so Brash Assault's guaranteed second attack would occur immediately after the first attack, making it very useful on Lyn), and Spur SPD in the C Slot (it's already there, and there's not much need for a specific C skill here, so let's just leave it there; besides, who doesn't like occasionally going a little faster?).
Essentially, we're going to make Lyn into a glass cannon by exploiting the fact that, with her Sol Katti's Desperation 2, she becomes much better if you can double while at or below 50% HP. As such, giving her Brash Assault makes her essentially into a super-fast Brave Sword unit, while Death Blow buffs Lyn's ATK considerably on your turn, making those guaranteed consecutive doubles at low HP significantly scarier and giving her potent Draconic Auras if you choose to run that. You can give her whatever you wish in the C Slot, that's pretty flexible.

Hope that helps, mate.

@Kaden F!Robin probably would only need regular Gronnblade (though + would certainly be nice, but it isn't strictly necessary), and like BANRYU said, her default weapon isn't that good (except maybe to counter Reinhardt, but sufficient buffs on Gronnblade F!Robin or Triangle Adept on Gronnraven F!Robin would probably do the trick there too, hell, Rexcalibur+ or Green Egg+ F!Robin could probably win if you have B Tomebreaker equipped). Still, if you wish to make F!Robin into Green!M!Robin, more power to you! At least this one can't be -ATK.

@DehNutCase For F!Robin, picture neutral M!Robin, but with an anti-cavalry tome (inferior to the -blade and -raven tomes), Defiant RES instead of Defiant SPD (not nearly as useful IMO, unless you run Iceberg/Glacies on F!Robin for some reason), and B Tomebreaker (this is actually pretty nice, keep this if her Grand Hero Battle ever comes back around and you catch her). She's not nearly as good as M!Robin... but she can be fixed via Inherit Skill, giving her either a niche as a bulky Gronnblade user or a bulky Gronnraven user, neither of which exist normally (Nino, the Gronnblader, and Cecilia, the Gronnravener, are both strong, but fragile units; F!Robin is the opposite, being fairly slow and a fair bit weaker, but having the defenses to take hits). I'm not sure which is better (I would prefer a bulky Gronnblader, but that's just because I already wrote up what I think is a good build for that), but the point is, F!Robin is basically a more tweakable M!Robin that comes with a unique Breaker skill (B Tomebreaker), so hopefully they'll rerun her Grand Hero Battle so you can pick her up and tweak her into a bulky user of whichever Green tome you need.

Also, which units would be good recipients for Galeforce, outside of Cordelia and Lyn? I'm just curious.

Edited April 18, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[MrSmokestack]

@Shiro @ILikeKirbys, I wouldn't bother with Galeforce. It's CD is massive at 5 and while the effect is highly potent, especially with a dancer, it simply will not be exercised very often in most games, practically speaking.

Lyn should have +Atk roll, always, since Brash Assault / Desperation forces a consecutive doubleattack anyway. To trigger Brash and Defiant more easily, Reciprocal Aid should go on her or one of your units, since Ardent Sacrifice won't take her close to the 50% threshold. At 51 Atk (54 if +Atk) Draconic Aura adds 15 (16) extra damage and procs every other round of combat Lyn participates in. Meanwhile, Luna would need to proc against an enemy with 30 def to output the same amount.

Overall, Lyn's default kit is pretty great. All you really need is Brash Assault and you'll be set.

 

Also, Faye has higher resistance and gets more damage off of Iceberg than Bonfire. Take +Res.

Edited April 18, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[DehNutCase]

4 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Also, which units would be good recipients for Galeforce, outside of Cordelia and Lyn? I'm just curious.

Anyone with great coverage already without needing specials is a candidate, and brave or killer users especially so. (Killers almost never have great coverage, however, and neither Minerva nor Michalis want Galeforce that much in their regular builds).

Lucina, for example, is a candidate, since a L&D Lucina with +Atk or +Spd 1RKOs like 90 units, although not using a brave means you probably need desperation in the B-slot.

In blue, Cordelia is hands down the best user---Reinhardt is a contender because good damage + brave tome, but he doesn't charge it nearly as easily as Cordelia.

In green, Raven probably does okay, so does Minerva if you force it, and, worst comes to worst, Camilla can also swing it, though not nearly as well as the other two.

In red, a lot of the sword lords are 'decent' with it, but they're all around Lyns level anyway, so not much point.

 

tl;dr Galeforce is fine on the people who have it in the first place. Cordelia easily murders 90+ of the cast without needing a special, and anyone she doesn't, you can have another, different Galeforce user to cover. (2 Galeforcers + a dancer kills a whole team in 1 round, since Dancer + 1 galeforcer kills 3, while the other galeforcer kills the last, the one the danced one has problems with.)

[Kaden]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Setsuna does have the advantage of being able to use Galeforce the most times in any given battle. Her damage is so low that even if she kills someone, she'll need all 4 hits to do it.

So now she can hit for 0 damage 8 times instead!

: D

(Actually she dies after getting 6 hits off because she needed to take a counter to charge the first galeforce, and anything that doesn't 1HKO her will 2HKO her. There's a reason you don't sacrifice everything else to pump speed. With no HP, Atk, Def, or Res, she literally has no way to do damage even with specials, Luna is best simply because it functions off the opponent's stat (def) rather than hers.)

Not to mention sacrificing Cordelia or Lyn to give her Galeforce is the same level of derp as sacrificing +Atk Klein to give her Brave Bow+. High speed simply doesn't do anything in this game if you don't have the other stats to back it up---no def or res means you can't abuse the fact that no one doubles you to tank, no atk means you can't even kill with quad hits.

Setsuna's stats rant:

Spoiler

Well, blame the developers. Setsuna's the same as she was in Fates: high speed, average to terrible everything else -- the later more so in Heroes -- and somehow that was considered okay for a unit. She has to compete with Anna, Nile and Takumi, units with better balanced stats, in both Fates and Heroes. I can understand a unit having insane attack or defenses and having nothing else, but only having high speed means nothing, especially in this game where you cannot avoid attacks. Niles is apparently not like himself in terms of attack, but it's justified in that he's meant to fight mages which if he had average, 30 attack as an archer, might have been too much. If Setsuna's base neutral attack was 30 instead of 28, she probably would be doing better than she is now. She'd at least have average attack instead of the second-lowest attack of the archers while tying for the lowest HP, and I want to say the overall worst defenses -- Jeorge's is similar, but Parthia can protect him if he initiates combat and he at least hits hard --, well, let's see, fourth lowest defense and fifth lowest resistance, sounds about right of having the worst defenses.

Other high speed units I can think of with average to low attack have other qualities: Caeda has high resistance and while expensive, she can be an insane mage killer, Beruka is bulky in defense, Eirika has a legendary weapon and has well-balanced defenses, Gaius can access Poison Dagger, has his default Rogue Dagger to help him out, and has high HP; Jaffar has a personal dagger and default access to Life & Death, Henry is defensively bulky and comes with a -raven tome, Lon'qu has high HP, Selena is bulky in both defense and resistance, Subaki is also bulky, especially in defense, and even Odin as much as I rip on him at the very least comes with a -blade tome to help out alongside Defiant Attack and having high HP. Outside of Gaius and Jaffar, all of them have weapon triangle advantage to help them out. That's at least 2 high stats to make up for 2 low stats and 1 average or 3 low stats. Even speaking in relative terms, since Setsuna's resistance being fifth lowest would put her as average for an archer, it's low compared to the entire cast. One high stat, low 4 other stats. Really? The easiest to fix is her attack: at least 30, at least average like she's supposed to be in Fates. The stupid thing is if Inherit Skill was planned in the beginning which it probably was considering the empty slots and unused special quotes for playable units, then the developers would have known that Setsuna and others would have been screwed regardless because of their stats and how skills can make other units, sometimes already good units, even better.

I like Setsuna because she's derpy, but using a character just because you like them and when they have pretty much nothing on other units is not fun. Even the smallest of niches can make them worthwhile, but dear Naga, Setsuna has absolutely nothing on the other archers. There's always that reminder of someone or rather, someones are just better and it sucks massive donkey butt.

I just checked with Firesweep Bow, she outperforms everyone, but a +Spd Takumi. With Firesweep Bow+ and Life & Death 3 against everyone with Fury 3 and neutral stats -- they can't counter back; maybe I should have used +Def --, a normal Jeorge gets 31 wins, Klein and Rebecca get 29, Setsuna gets 36, and Takumi gets 33. If all are +Atk, then Jeorge and Klein get 38 wins, Rebecca gets 36, Setsuna gets 42, and Takumi gets 41. If all are +Spd, then Jeorge gets 39 wins, Klein gets 38, Rebecca gets 37, Setsuna gets 42, and Takumi gets 45. Once again, the superior archer proves he's the best at everything given the right edge and with a bow that isn't as great as a delete button as Brave Bow+. There's also the issue of being unable to counter back which would suck with Setsuna's shoddy defenses and removing Takumi's default Close Counter shtick. Rebecca was there since I wondered if she'd like to use Firesweep. The answer is no and also a no to Brave Bow.

Getting screwed by the game by giving me a -Atk Setsuna is not fun either.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Rebecca is in the Atk tier where she loses 4 Atk rather than 3 with a bane. -Spd\+Atk Rebecca is salvageable (turns her into Virion), -Atk Rebecca is just -_-

If you force it her decent res means she can run Glacies well, but Klein does it better. Like a lot of other archers, you can turn the -spd version into ghetto Klein so long as you run a lot of +Atk buffs, and hand her DB 3 (say... from Klein) or L&D.

Yeah, I know, -Atk means her base attack is going to be 25 which is Matthew and Niles's neutral attack and -Atk M!Robin's... UGH... I don't have a -Spd one, but yeah, at least she's salvageable which Niles should be too since their base neutral speed is the same.

The +Res idea was that if she had 30 resistance, it would be useful for her to run Iceberg over Luna since she'd have a guaranteed +15 damage regardless of what units she fights.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Navarre has Desperation.

Karel's spread is good enough that you can just let his sword carry even the -Atk version. (-Atk Karel has more damage than =Atk Selena, and similar bulk.) Corrin has a legendary sword, maybe a bit worse in damage than Wo Dao+, but it's good enough that killing Karel for a marginal increase isn't worth it. (Unless he's a huge whale, but a huge whale would have Shannas.)

He has a Navarre too -- both hard and lunatic Navarre --, but only Shanna can give a full set of it as a 4* which he said was going to try to get instead of spending 20k feathers for a should be inexpensive skill compared to say, Wo Dao+ or Close and Distant Counter. He had a Shanna, but he has no idea what happened to her since she's listed in his Hero Merit -- he said he might have sent her home before Inherit Skill was a thing.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Kaden