Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[bethany81707]

What skills does Klein like? I'm fairly sure his niche is a player phase delete button, or at least a heavy hitter, and I'm not sure what skills help him in this endeavour for his B and C slots.

He's on a team with my Robin (F) (Gronnraven+ Triangle Adept, a green variant of Robin (M) for the neutral nature), Lissa (Atk aura, Heavenly Light special), and a spot reserved for a Blue unit- Effie and Sharena are competing for it, but Sharena's waiting until my next 5* promotion to show promise.

[MaskedAmpharos]

22 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

What skills does Klein like? I'm fairly sure his niche is a player phase delete button, or at least a heavy hitter, and I'm not sure what skills help him in this endeavour for his B and C slots.

He's on a team with my Robin (F) (Gronnraven+ Triangle Adept, a green variant of Robin (M) for the neutral nature), Lissa (Atk aura, Heavenly Light special), and a spot reserved for a Blue unit- Effie and Sharena are competing for it, but Sharena's waiting until my next 5* promotion to show promise.

In my personal opinion, I like Klein with a weaponbreaker that allows him to ORKO threats he wouldn't normally be able to delete. 

For example, equipping Klein with Swordbreaker grants him ORKOs against many common threats he wouldn't normally be able to ORKO, such as Marth, Alm, Karel, and Ryoma. 

For his C-slot, if you just wanted to benefit Klein personally, Threaten Def is probably the best option. That said, I'm of the personal opinion that C skills are best utilized for Hone/Fortify auras for your allies. You ultimately benefit more from 3 other members of your team gaining +4 Atk or +4 Spd than one of Klein's victim's losing some defense. 

[bethany81707]

2 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

In my personal opinion, I like Klein with a weaponbreaker that allows him to ORKO threats he wouldn't normally be able to delete. 

For example, equipping Klein with Swordbreaker grants him ORKOs against many common threats he wouldn't normally be able to ORKO, such as Marth, Alm, Karel, and Ryoma. 

For his C-slot, if you just wanted to benefit Klein personally, Threaten Def is probably the best option. That said, I'm of the personal opinion that C skills are best utilized for Hone/Fortify auras for your allies. You ultimately benefit more from 3 other members of your team gaining +4 Atk or +4 Spd than one of Klein's victim's losing some defense. 

Well, that'll be something to think about when I get a million blues after Tana comes out. I don't think I've ever gotten Abel or Sully before.

As for his Aura, Lissa has Atk, so I'm leaning on a different one. Depends what I have.

[pianime94]

On 4/23/2017 at 1:08 PM, Zero1000 said:

I'll be waiting until I have feathers for F!Corrin. Thanks for the answers.

Also, should I keep him with Vantage or give him another B skill?

Wings of Mercccyyyyyy for the ultimate shenanigan.

[ILikeKirbys]

8 hours ago, Zero1000 said:

I'll be waiting until I have feathers for F!Corrin. Thanks for the answers.

Also, should I keep him with Vantage or give him another B skill?

Give Reinhardt something other than Vantage. He really doesn't get much out of Vantage since he's supposed to kill everything on his turn, so give him something else.

I remember Lancebreaker being recommended to me once. I haven't had a chance to try it, but it sounds like a good call, since Reinhardt already crushes Reds and can probably handle Colorless pretty well without a B Skill, so you should help him deal with Blues.... And I wouldn't burn a F!Robin for Blue Tomebreaker, so give Reinhardt Lancebreaker from an Arthur if you have/pull one.

[Kaden]

17 hours ago, Kaden said:

Edit: Huh... Budget build for Gaius: +Atk, -Def, Silver Dagger+, Life & Death 3, Swordbreaker 3, any C-slot, default or any Assist, and Moonbow. 62 wins, 3 losses, 55 draws. If he's +Spd, -Def, then 45 wins, 3 losses, 72 draws and if neutral, then 41 wins, 3 losses, 76 draws.

Y'know, I'm just going to explore this part as well. The above was done without Fury 3 on everyone. With it, as will be shown below, Gaius loses almost half of his wins.

Silver Dagger time; everyone with Silver Dagger+ and Life & Death 3 against everyone with Fury 3. Excluded from this is Jaffar since he comes with his own personal dagger that is essentially a stronger Silver Dagger+ i.e. there is absolutely no reason to give him a Silver Dagger+. Saizo will have Smoke Dagger+ as well to compare. Also, no seals just 'cause.

Details in spoiler.

Spoiler

Felicia (+Atk, -Res) with B Tomebreaker and Moonbow gets 20 wins, 7 losses, and 93 wins. Dagger- and G Tomebreaker drops her by 1 win while Axe-, Bow-, Lance-, R Tome-, and Swordbreaker do not change her wins from having no -breaker skill; it drops her to 18 wins, 7 losses, and 95 draws.

Gaius (+Atk, -Def) with Swordbreaker and Reprisal gets 37 wins, 3 losses, and 82 draws. Bow-, B Tome-, and Daggerbreaker drops him by 2 wins, and Axe-, G Tome-, Lance-, and R Tomebreaker drops him by 3 wins. The only way he can reach his -breakerless results of 33 wins, 2 losses, and 85 draws is if he doesn't have one in the first place. Also, Moonbow drops him by 1 win.

Jaffar (+Atk, -Def) with his Deathly Dagger, Bow-, B Tome-, or Daggerbreaker, and Moonbow gets 24 wins, 2 losses, and 94 losses. Lance- and Swordbreaker drops him by 1 win and Axe-, G Tome-, and R Tomebreaker drops him by 3 wins. Like Gaius, the only way he can reach his -breakerless results of 20 wins, 2 losses, and 98 draws is by not having one. Also, Reprisal drops him by 1 win.

Jakob (+Spd, -Def) with Bowbreaker and Moonbow gets 22 wins, 1 loss, and 97 draws. B Tomebreaker drops him by 1 win, Dagger- and Lancebreaker drops him by 2 wins, and G and R Tomebreaker drops him by 3 wins while Axe and Swordbreaker does not change his results without a -breaker skill of 18 wins, 2 losses, and 100 draws.

Kagero (+Atk, -Def) with Swordbreaker and Moonbow gets 47 wins, 8 losses, and 65 draws. Dagger- and Lancebreaker drops her by 7 wins, Axe-, B Tome- drops her by 12 wins, G Tomebreaker drops her by 13 wins, and Bow- and R Tomebreaker drops her by 14 wins. Her -breakerless results is 32 wins, 8 losses, and 80 draws. Reprisal drops her by 2 wins.

Kagero (+Spd, -Def) with Swordbreaker and Moonbow gets 44 wins, 9 losses, and 67 draws. Dagger- and Lancebreaker drops her by 4 wins, B Tome- drops her by 7 wins, Axe-, Bow-, G Tome-, and R Tomebreaker drops her by 8 wins. Her -breakerless results is 35 wins, 9 losses, and 76 draws. Reprisal drops her by 1 win.

Matthew (+Atk, -Def) with Bowbreaker and Moonbow gets 21 wins, 3 losses, and 96 draws. B Tomebreaker drops him by 1 win, Dagger- and Lancebreaker drops him by 2 wins, and G and R Tomebreaker drops him by 3 wins while Axe and Swordbreaker does not change his results without a -breaker skill of 17 wins, 3 losses, and 100 draws.

Saizo (+Atk, -Def) with Silver Dagger+, Bowbreaker, and Moonbow or Reprisal gets 24 wins, 13 losses, and 83 draws. B Tome-, Dagger-, Lance-, and Swordbreaker drop him by 1 win and Axebreaker drops him by 3 while G and R Tomebreaker do not change his results without a -breaker skill of 20 wins, 13 losses, and 87 draws.

Saizo (+Atk, -Def) with Smoke Dagger+, Bowbreaker, and Moonbow or Reprisal gets 23 wins, 13 losses, and 84 wins. Same thing happens with the other -breaker skills for Smoke Dagger+ Saizo.

First off, never give Kagero a Silver Dagger. The moment you do, she drops by 14 wins and gains 3 losses. Like in the previous check with Poison Dagger on everyone else, she retains her commanding lead. +Atk, -Def Kagero has 10 wins over the second-best, Gaius, but that comes at the cost of being very volatile since she's dependent on Swordbreaker to have that many wins. Without Swordbreaker, she can drop by upwards of 15 wins and compared to a +Atk, -Def Gaius without -breaker skills, Gaius actually comes out as being slightly better. +Spd, -Def Kagero is more stable and without a -breaker, Kagero beats +Spd, -Def Gaius without -breaker skills and even comes close to matching him when he has Swordbreaker 3 when she doesn't.

Felicia performs the worst, as to be expected. It might actually be overkill for her when you consider that most mages don't have high defenses and you're giving her a glass cannon build. Felicia's probably better off doing a similar build to Niles with Fury, Quick Riposte, and Iceberg, but she'll underperform when there is no such thing as a Killer Dagger to let her activate Iceberg per round.

Gaius is once again, the second-best candidate for a Silver Dagger as he has a 13 win lead over Saizo, the third-best. He is also uniquely the only one that actually wants Reprisal rather than Moonbow. Then again, he has the highest HP out of the current thieves and is the fastest by default.

And once again, I did not expect Jakob to perform this bad. He's around Felicia and Matthew's level. Bowbreaker is good, but probably more situational than Lancebreaker and Swordbreaker which does not change his results like Matthew. Maybe Jakob is a bit too balanced...

As for Matthew, I realized when I did the Poison Dagger check that Matthew's stats are pretty similar to Jaffar's, but he lacks the natural edge Jaffar has of having a personal weapon, Life & Death, and a special.

Lastly, Saizo. Silver Dagger is probably not worth it for 1 overall extra win. He's better off being given Poison Dagger in the future rather than a Silver Dagger.

Eh, just to compare a bit since big numbers are just that: big numbers. So, +Atk, -Def Gaius vs. +Spd, -Def Kagero -- higher overall wins without any -breaker skill.

Spoiler

Gaius's wins over Kagero: Azura, Cecilia, Jaffar, Jeorge, Ninian, Sanaki, Peri, and Takumi.

Gaius survives over Kagero: Cecilia, Jeorge, Rebecca, Ryoma, Sanaki, Takumi, and Virion.

Kagero's wins over Gaius: Abel, Azama, Camilla, Spring Camilla, Faye, Florina, Hinoka, Merric, Raven, and F!Robin. Okay, apparently Kagero cannot KO any of the dancers because she's 1 speed off. Speed Seal +1 lets her KO Azura, Olivia, and Ninian.

Kagero survives over Gaius: Nobody; she shares with Gaius: Kagero and Setsuna, as losses.

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Kaden

[Zero1k]

6 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Give Reinhardt something other than Vantage. He really doesn't get much out of Vantage since he's supposed to kill everything on his turn, so give him something else.

I remember Lancebreaker being recommended to me once. I haven't had a chance to try it, but it sounds like a good call, since Reinhardt already crushes Reds and can probably handle Colorless pretty well without a B Skill, so you should help him deal with Blues.... And I wouldn't burn a F!Robin for Blue Tomebreaker, so give Reinhardt Lancebreaker from an Arthur if you have/pull one.

Would Lancebreaker 2 be enough? (Though I'll probably give him Lancebreaker 3 from Narcian when he's rereleased).

[ILikeKirbys]

Just now, Zero1000 said:

Would Lancebreaker 2 be enough? (Though I'll probably give him Lancebreaker 3 from Narcian when he's rereleased).

Ideally Reinhardt never gets hit ever because he's murdering everything with 1-2 hits of Dire Thunder before anyone can get in a counter on him, so yeah, Lancebreaker 2 should be enough for Reinhardt.

[Clogon]

1 hour ago, Zero1000 said:

Would Lancebreaker 2 be enough? (Though I'll probably give him Lancebreaker 3 from Narcian when he's rereleased).

You will not get a good score. Skills come in 4 different categories. Bronze, Silver, Gold and Unique (the boarder is a mixture of all 3 previous ones). The last 2 yields the best score.

 

Edit:

You can see the 3 different boarders here:

 

Unique B skills like Knockback are the most SP efficient arena point boosters.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Clogon

[Vaximillian]

@Arcanite Killer Lance + Luna on Oboro, yay or nay?

[MrSmokestack]

11 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

@Arcanite Killer Lance + Luna on Oboro, yay or nay?

Killer Lance works fine, but if you want to use it I would suggest another proc skill instead: Ignis. With a Killer Lance, the CD drops to 3, which makes it highly spammable with Quick Riposte, adding 30 damage to her second attack; Luna would need to proc against a unit with 60 (!!!) defense in order to output the same amount, which of course doesn't exist in the game.

Spoiler

Yet

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Vaximillian]

1 minute ago, MrSmokestack said:

Killer Lance works fine, but if you want to use it I would suggest another proc skill instead: Ignis.

And I've been so conveniently given a pair of Robins! [+Atk, −Spd] Oboro will still work better than [+Def, −Atk] one, right?
Do I give up a Gwendy or a Catria for a killer lance? QR means a Subaki which I only have one of.

[MrSmokestack]

6 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

And I've been so conveniently given a pair of Robins! [+Atk, −Spd] Oboro will still work better than [+Def, −Atk] one, right?
Do I give up a Gwendy or a Catria for a killer lance? QR means a Subaki which I only have one of.

+Atk would work better for the build, since Oboro's speed tier isn't very good to begin with and her role is to tank and counter-kill on enemy phase, so her speed isn't as important when she's guaranteed a double via QR.

Unless you want Hone Armor to pass around to other units, I personally would drop Gwen since Catria is good out of the box already. The main issue here might be having just the one Subaki, as QR is a valuable skill for quite a few units to inherit, but if you're committed to using Oboro, then give it to her by all means.

...You are passing Killer Lance+, right?

Edited April 24, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Vaximillian]

2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

...You are passing Killer Lance+, right?

I'm not passing anything yet, it's all just theoretical. So many units, so few feathers. Right now I'm saving for 5⋆'ing a [+Atk, −Res] Reinhardt.

Then I want to promote Hana for L&D3 for Navarre, then possibly promote him.

[Arcanite]

23 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Then I want to promote Hana for L&D3 for Navarre, then possibly promote him.

I don't even understand your obsession with this Scarlet Sword dude (I think he's a guy anyway....), but if it were me, I'd rather give Life and Death to someone else.

The fact that you're "baller" enough to start promoting units just for inheritance is pretty cool though.

37 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

And I've been so conveniently given a pair of Robins! [+Atk, −Spd] Oboro will still work better than [+Def, −Atk] one, right?
Do I give up a Gwendy or a Catria for a killer lance? QR means a Subaki which I only have one of.

If you only have one Subaki, I'd wait before you start making The babe of dreams Oboro OP.

Wait until you get 2 so this way you can have a spare if QR on something else will work better for you even though Oboro deserves it more

Spoiler

Also, I'd personally go for Bonfire, but Ignis works just as well (if not better). The reason why I say so is because someone would have to be fast enough to double Oboro in order for her to proc Ignis on the same turn. 

Ex: Enemy attacks Oboro with 12 more speed

Enemy attacks (Special trigger: 2)

Oboro counters (Special trigger: 1)

Enemy attacks (Special trigger: Charged)

Oboro counters again with special (Quick Riposte)

Now with bonfire, 2 turns would have been wasted on the charge since they're faster, but on the incredibly rare situation they aren't faster you'd have to wait until Player phase to use Ignis. Your Oboro is -Spd though (Like mine, except her boon is resistance) so the VAST Majority of the time, she's probably going to get doubled which means Ignis procs everywhere. Here, there, everywhere. 

Ignis procs in your pocket,

 Ignis procs in your nose,

 Ignis procs in your sandwich,

 Ignis procs in your toes

Ignis procs in your soup

Ignis procs in your scone

I don't know it kinda just happened okay

 

[Vaximillian]

12 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

I don't even understand your obsession with this Scarlet Sword dude (I think he's a guy anyway....), but if it were me, I'd rather give Life and Death to someone else.

The fact that you're "baller" enough to start promoting units just for inheritance is pretty cool though.

He's cool and he's the original edgelord swordsman. Also he's red, and everybody knows that the red goes faster.

I've been doing it for a while now, that's how Michalis has QR2, for example.

12 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

If you only have one Subaki, I'd wait before you start making The babe of dreams Oboro OP.

Yeah, I'm certainly not in a hurry at all. Subakis are a resource to be wisely managed (past the first one, who is a person).
Also, have an Oboro for your troubles.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Vaximillian

[Arcanite]

2 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Also he's red, and everybody knows that the red goes faster.

In before Joshua gets 39 speed at base

4 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Also, have an Oboro for your troubles.

Wow!

I like it!

I also saw the three others in that art thread you posted!

SWEET!

[Vaximillian]

1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

In before Joshua gets 39 speed at base

That's because of the hat. You can't argue with the hat.

Speaking of Sacred Stones, I wonder whether they will remember to make Marisa left-handed ifwhen she's added to the game.

[MaskedAmpharos]

@Vaximillian If you're still looking for Oboro advice, I'd recommend QR + Bonfire. 

With a Killer Lance, she'll proc Bonfire every round of combat (on enemy phase, which is when a tank like her should be doing most of the work) on units that double her, which is...a lot of people but most notably basically every red sword she's designed to counter anyways. 

Ignis, as @MrSmokestack suggested, is fine too, but I personally prefer being able to proc Bonfire every round of combat instead of getting a proc every other round. If you go the Ignis route though, you'll get a bigger proc that's primed at the beginning of your next phase though, so there's that. (But if you aren't strong enough to kill without a proc, then you'll have to use Ignis on the person that hit you on the last enemy phase, thus achieving nothing Bonfire couldn't except for wasting a turn). 

EDIT: Ignore me I'm tired 

Edited April 24, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[MrSmokestack]

15 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

@Vaximillian If you're still looking for Oboro advice, I'd recommend QR + Bonfire. 

With a Killer Lance, she'll proc Bonfire every round of combat (on enemy phase, which is when a tank like her should be doing most of the work) on units that double her, which is...a lot of people but most notably basically every red sword she's designed to counter anyways. 

Ignis, as @MrSmokestack suggested, is fine too, but I personally prefer being able to proc Bonfire every round of combat instead of getting a proc every other round. If you go the Ignis route though, you'll get a bigger proc that's primed at the beginning of your next phase though, so there's that. (But if you aren't strong enough to kill without a proc, then you'll have to use Ignis on the person that hit you on the last enemy phase, thus achieving nothing Bonfire couldn't except for wasting a turn). 

What?

Ignis and Bonfire proc in the same round of combat assuming Oboro gets doubled with Quick Riposte. Killer Lance reduces Ignis CD to 3 so the order goes like this: Enemy attacks (2) --> Oboro counters (1) --> Enemy finishes (0) --> Oboro procs. Oboro is more likely to be doubled than to double, considering his -Spd Oboro would have 23 Spd at 5* 40.

Unless I'm missing something, Ignis is a straight upgrade for the higher damage (28 vs 17) and the better timing.

Edited April 24, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[MaskedAmpharos]

Just now, MrSmokestack said:

What?

Ignis and Bonfire proc in the same round of combat assuming Oboro gets doubled with Quick Riposte. Ignis reduces CD to 3 so the order goes like this: Enemy attacks (2) --> Oboro counters (1) --> Enemy finishes (0) --> Oboro procs. Oboro is more likely to be doubled than to double, considering his -Spd Oboro would have 23 Spd at 5* 40.

Unless I'm missing something, Ignis is a straight upgrade for the higher damage (30 vs 19) and the better timing.

No, you're absolutely right. Serves me right for trying to help people minutes after waking up. 

Bonfire is only better if the enemy does not double Oboro, but if the enemy does, then Ignis is indeed better w/ Killer Lance + QR. 

[Vaximillian]

@MaskedAmpharos Bonfire is adult Tiki, right? Because I've a whole harem of adult Tikis.
I've a similar experience with QR+Bonfire Michalis, and it works well on him.

+Atk Oboro has 33/35 Atk and Def at 4⋆/5⋆ respectively. That's respectable.

@Arcanite Here, have some more:

I tried to mimic her attacking artwork here.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Vaximillian

[MaskedAmpharos]

@Vaximillian Wait no go back and read up on what Smoke just said in case you missed it. 

Ignis is indeed better on Oboro assuming a Killer Lance + QR set. 

[Vaximillian]

1 minute ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Ignis is indeed better on Oboro assuming a Killer Lance + QR set. 

@MrSmokestack Yes, I just read the post. Won't Ignis be overkill? Which targets does she need Ignis for?
I'm pretty much spoilt by Michalis' 50 Atk.

[Arcanite]

I mean, I basically said Ignis is better in my "Ignis poem" not too long ago

6 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

@MaskedAmpharos Bonfire is adult Tiki, right? Because I've a whole harem of adult Tikis.
I've a similar experience with QR+Bonfire Michalis, and it works well on him.

Amphy hasn't had his morning coffee, so just keep in mind that Ignis is better, and use your Adult tiki for lightning breath fodder if you ever pull a young Tiki

7 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

I tried to mimic her attacking artwork here.

You're making me want to change my profile picture :(