Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[Arcanite]

Just now, MrSmokestack said:

And then waste all those merges should you ever promote her to 5*. Cute.

Your queen deserves better than this.

I told Sleypnr what he should do, not what I'm doing. If it were me, all of those Oboros would have been 5 star already

[Birdy]

17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

For the two examples in particular (because I'm not going to go down the entire list), the situation with Klein where he has two high-demand low-supply 5-star exclusive skills doesn't apply to them.

Chrom has Defiant Def 3 and Spur Def 2 that he can provide as a 4-star unit, neither of which are particularly useful on their own or as prerequisites. An argument could be made for Spur Def 2 if Ward Armor were locked behind 5-star rarity, but it isn't. If you're intending to use Chrom for Aether, you would have him teach the entire line in one go instead of topping off other existing skills because the other existing skills aren't in high demand or in low supply.

Nowi is in a similar situation where she only has one skill that is worth teaching, that being Lightning Breath+. There's similarly no reason to use her to top off other skills because the only other skill she unlocks at 5-star rarity is Defense +3, which similarly is neither in high demand nor in low supply.

Chrom can still inherit Daylight and Sol as a prerequisite for Aether from someone else. Ike still has Heavy Blade 2, Swordbreaker 3 or a combination of those (by having someone else give Swordbreaker 1/2) to give if you decide to use him for Aether. Aside from those two skills, you can also give Spur Def 1 from Chrom as a prerequisite for Spur Def/Res 1 & Spur Def/Res 2 from Mist, which is a good skill and gives the most arena points as a C-skill, while still having the option of giving one more skill/special to a healer if you choose to do so. 

You can just aswell put people like Cordelia on that list because she only gives Pass 3 as a full skill as a 4*. Yet many people wouldn't say to let her go because she has the prerequisite to Brave Lance +, Triangle Adept 3 and Galeforce. 

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, Birdy said:

Chrom can still inherit Daylight and Sol as a prerequisite for Aether from someone else. Ike still has Heavy Blade 2, Swordbreaker 3 or a combination of those (by having someone else give Swordbreaker 1/2) to give if you decide to use him for Aether. Aside from those two skills, you can also give Spur Def 1 from Chrom as a prerequisite for Spur Def/Res 1 & Spur Def/Res 2 from Mist, which is a good skill and gives the most arena points as a C-skill, while still having the option of giving one more skill/special to a healer if you choose to do so. 

A combo with Ike is getting close to stretching it, but a combo with Mist is entirely unnecessary. Mist has nothing of value to teach to anyone that is capable of learning Sol except Spur Def/Res 2 (Miracle is generally regarded as useless, and her other skills are staff-exclusive), meaning you're never going to need to have another teacher for just Spur Def 1.

 

19 minutes ago, Birdy said:

You can just aswell put people like Cordelia on that list because she only gives Pass 3 as a full skill as a 4*. Yet many people wouldn't say to let her go because she has the prerequisite to Brave Lance +, Triangle Adept 3 and Galeforce. 

Um, no. That's not even close to the same situation with Chrom. Cordelia has prerequisites for several good skills simultaneously. 4-star Chrom has prerequisites for nothing of value except Aether, for which there are easier-to-obtain replacements for (namely anyone with Luna).

 

24 minutes ago, Birdy said:

Chrom can still inherit Daylight and Sol

"Inherit" is on the "learn" side of the learn-teach pair, not the "teach" side.

[Clogon]

1 hour ago, Sleypnyr said:

That's the reason the question was posed. Are there skills that have absolutely 0 value at all? Like Oboro was one of the units I brought up, Heavy Spear, Rally Defense, Seal Def 3 (4*), and and Threaten Res 2 (4*). Going to leave 5* versions out of the conversation for the time being.  I mean I can see some slight arguments to keep her around, though how many units will find use out of those skills. In my case, I have 11 and I know for sure I shouldn't keep that many. Should I only go down to 1? Get rid of her completely, because you'll never use them. 

-7 to Defense or Speed, comes of sounding nice, but is it really that valuable? 

I use her for Rally Def and Heavy Spear. The latter being a GREAT tool to level with as they allow you to kill Armour units dispite being on the wrong side of the triangle. Basically all my 4* units have an Armour breaker for this reason. Silver weapons are only 3 ATK higher while Triangle weapons lock you into a specific role. I also use Seal Def 1 as the last option. Again it makes training units much easier and only costs 60 SP. Reposition is a must have in the arena but Rally def helps you train.

 

57 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

And then waste all those merges should you ever promote her to 5*. Cute.

Your queen deserves better than this.

It doesn't go to waste since the feathers are deducted from the cost.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Clogon

[MrSmokestack]

17 minutes ago, Clogon said:

It doesn't go to waste since the feathers are deducted from the cost.

I meant that the merge level doesn't carry over, but 17k feathers is still a steep cost to promote to 5*.

That said, a 5* at +10 is significantly more expensive than a 4* +10 and has no added advantage aside from additional stats and arena score since there are no restrictions related to * rarity when it comes to inheriting skills.

[mcsilas]

16 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

@mcsilas Draconic Aura.

Between Sword or Lancebreaker, it depends on what gives your team more issues. Swords tend to be pretty frail already though, so I'm voting for Lancebreaker.

Okay thanks for that, although in the end i think i might give Klein Swordbreaker because i'll be feeding him a Sully for Draw Back.

also because Reinhardt will be inheriting Lancebreaker (he already will be deleting most swords, too but Klein is a backup if I use both on the same team).

Getting SP for 5 star pulls is rough though. I only spent SP on Death Blow and I still won't get my planned set yet. Probably will prioritise Draconic Aura, then Swordbreaker. Draw Back might have to wait.

Edited May 27, 2017 by mcsilas

[MaskedAmpharos]

On 5/26/2017 at 0:19 PM, MrSmokestack said:

I meant that the merge level doesn't carry over, but 17k feathers is still a steep cost to promote to 5*.

That said, a 5* at +10 is significantly more expensive than a 4* +10 and has no added advantage aside from additional stats and arena score since there are no restrictions related to * rarity when it comes to inheriting skills.

Honestly, with how difficult and expensive 5* +10s are for non-whales to get, a 4* +10 is honestly probably the best route to go for F2P. You would need the 5* to be at a merge level of about +5 or so to match the stats of a 4* +10, and even a +5 5* is difficult and expensive to attain for F2P. The only real advantage of having the unit at 5* would be the access to better weapons and skills, but that advantage can be circumvented with inheritance.

12 hours ago, mcsilas said:

Okay thanks for that, although in the end i think i might give Klein Swordbreaker because i'll be feeding him a Sully for Draw Back.

also because Reinhardt will be inheriting Lancebreaker (he already will be deleting most swords, too but Klein is a backup if I use both on the same team).

Getting SP for 5 star pulls is rough though. I only spent SP on Death Blow and I still won't get my planned set yet. Probably will prioritise Draconic Aura, then Swordbreaker. Draw Back might have to wait.

For ranged units, I find that running two or even three dancers drastically increases SP farming rate (I mean that applies to any unit, but ranged units in general are easier to train imo)

[Astellius]

I have a couple questions:

First, I had originally planned to make Cecilia a 5* sometime in the future, but, upon thinking about it, I realized I can merge a 4* Cecilia to +5 and the stats will be equivalent to a 5* one. It seems like, as someone not putting money into the game, that actually the 4* +5 is the way to go. What do you guys think? The 4* +5 Cecilia would only cost me 8,000 feathers vs. 20,000 for a 5*, and, should I draw any more Cecilia's, they can be merged to further improve the 4* one. I'm doing a Gronnblade build, so Cecilia's 5* skills are irrelevant.

Second, what skills would be best for Cecilia's A- and B-slots? She has Gronnblade, and runs in Horse Emblem. I have been using a +Res -Def one, but I just pulled a +Atk -HP one, I could switch to that one. My current thought is Darting Blow 3 for the A-slot, but Fury 3 might be good too. LnD 2 is a possibility, but I like having her be able to take a hit, so I'm disinclined towards it.

Third, is the +Atk -HP nature the preferable one?

Thanks!

[DehNutCase]

9 minutes ago, Astellius said:

I have a couple questions:

First, I had originally planned to make Cecilia a 5* sometime in the future, but, upon thinking about it, I realized I can merge a 4* Cecilia to +5 and the stats will be equivalent to a 5* one. It seems like, as someone not putting money into the game, that actually the 4* +5 is the way to go. What do you guys think? The 4* +5 Cecilia would only cost me 8,000 feathers vs. 20,000 for a 5*, and, should I draw any more Cecilia's, they can be merged to further improve the 4* one. I'm doing a Gronnblade build, so Cecilia's 5* skills are irrelevant.

Second, what skills would be best for Cecilia's A- and B-slots? She has Gronnblade, and runs in Horse Emblem. I have been using a +Res -Def one, but I just pulled a +Atk -HP one, I could switch to that one. My current thought is Darting Blow 3 for the A-slot, but Fury 3 might be good too. LnD 2 is a possibility, but I like having her be able to take a hit, so I'm disinclined towards it.

Third, is the +Atk -HP nature the preferable one?

Thanks!

+Atk/-Hp is the better Cecilia, yes.

A 5* weapon is worth 2 merges---4 MT = 4 Atk. (And Cecila is pretty good with her Raven Tome. TA3 & Raven smacks Rein to death like 2 damage taken or something, and she kills colorless by herself.)

That said, since you're going the -blade route rather than the TA 3 raven route, it's probably fine to leave her 4*. Fury 3 if you have spare Hinata is probably best, and B-slot would depend on what holes you need Cecilia to fill. (If there's a Axe/G-Tome that really needs killing, if you need her to counter-kill some faster mages, etc.) If there's no particular hole she needs to fill, Renewal is a good 'filler' since you pretty much can't go wrong with it.

You can also run Vantage to counter opposing 2 range Vantage users (if you're both low, and you don't have Vantage, you're at risk of getting 1HKOd, but if you do have Vantage, you can just kill the Vantage user during EP.)

B-slot is probably the most team-oriented slot, since it depends more on the team a unit's in than the unit itself to see what's best. A-slot is: Fury 3 is basically never the wrong choice. Darting feels pretty meh, since 25 base speed isn't too hot. +Spd goes to 29, which is 35 with Hone Cav, and thus 'decent,' but +Atk isn't fast enough to use Darting well, in my opinion. Better to run either Fury, DB3, TA3 etc. (TA 3 is better with Raven tome, though, which you aren't planning to use.)

[Astellius]

23 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

+Atk/-Hp is the better Cecilia, yes.

A 5* weapon is worth 2 merges---4 MT = 4 Atk. (And Cecila is pretty good with her Raven Tome. TA3 & Raven smacks Rein to death like 2 damage taken or something, and she kills colorless by herself.)

That said, since you're going the -blade route rather than the TA 3 raven route, it's probably fine to leave her 4*. Fury 3 if you have spare Hinata is probably best, and B-slot would depend on what holes you need Cecilia to fill. (If there's a Axe/G-Tome that really needs killing, if you need her to counter-kill some faster mages, etc.) If there's no particular hole she needs to fill, Renewal is a good 'filler' since you pretty much can't go wrong with it.

You can also run Vantage to counter opposing 2 range Vantage users (if you're both low, and you don't have Vantage, you're at risk of getting 1HKOd, but if you do have Vantage, you can just kill the Vantage user during EP.)

B-slot is probably the most team-oriented slot, since it depends more on the team a unit's in than the unit itself to see what's best. A-slot is: Fury 3 is basically never the wrong choice. Darting feels pretty meh, since 25 base speed isn't too hot. +Spd goes to 29, which is 35 with Hone Cav, and thus 'decent,' but +Atk isn't fast enough to use Darting well, in my opinion. Better to run either Fury, DB3, TA3 etc. (TA 3 is better with Raven tome, though, which you aren't planning to use.)

She's running in a Horse Emblem team, so, while 25 base isn't great in itself, the boosts from the team will make it very good. Factoring in Hone Cav, Goad Cav, and Darting Blow, her speed reaches an effective 41 on the player phase, allowing her to double practically the entirety of the cast, even a Spd neutral Nino or Lucina. With Fury 3, she doubles about 30 characters less than she would with Darting Blow 3, so that's a very considerable drop.

[DehNutCase]

3 minutes ago, Astellius said:

She's running in a Horse Emblem team, so, while 25 base isn't great in itself, the boosts from the team will make it very good. Factoring in Hone Cav, Goad Cav, and Darting Blow, her speed reaches an effective 41 on the player phase, allowing her to double practically the entirety of the cast, even a Spd neutral Nino or Lucina. With Fury 3, she doubles about 30 characters less than she would with Darting Blow 3, so that's a very considerable drop.

The thing is, other people also get A-slot that give speed, and occasionally +Spd boons. (And I'm not too fond of Goad Cav on -blade teams, since Fort Cav gives 12 damage and +6 to defenses. Not much need to double people when you can just straight up 1HKO.)

I don't rely too much on things that increase speed for doubles in general, because, being a 'breakpoint' stat, it ends up being too volatile to guarantee.

But if you think it's good, go for it.

[Astellius]

57 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

The thing is, other people also get A-slot that give speed, and occasionally +Spd boons. (And I'm not too fond of Goad Cav on -blade teams, since Fort Cav gives 12 damage and +6 to defenses. Not much need to double people when you can just straight up 1HKO.)

I don't rely too much on things that increase speed for doubles in general, because, being a 'breakpoint' stat, it ends up being too volatile to guarantee.

But if you think it's good, go for it.

Certainly, of course there will be situations with +Spd boons or natures, etc., I simply was presenting why I thought Darting Blow 3 would look good on my Cecilia. My planned Horse Emblem team is Cecilia w/Hone Cav, Xander w/Hone, Reinhardt w/Fortify, and Camus w/Goad (whenever he finally comes out!). So Cecilia can get the benefits of Hone, Fortify, and Goad Cavalry all at once! With all of that, if Cecilia is doubling, she'll kill pretty much anything, even probably sword lords!

Fury might be preferable if it allows her to kill and/or tank archers/mages better than she would with Darting Blow. This is something I don't know. But, I guess it's likely this: I probably can't go wrong with either skill in the A-slot.

[Roflolxp54]

Camus's GHB is in the datamine - I wonder who wants Grani's Shield?

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Camus's GHB is in the datamine - I wonder who wants Grani's Shield?

No one uses Litrwolf if they have the means to replace it because it's a shit weapon.

[Roflolxp54]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

No one uses Litrwolf if they have the means to replace it because it's a shit weapon.

I'm aware; it's pretty much as situational as Iote's Shield and Svalinn Shield.

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

I'm aware; it's pretty much as situational as Iote's Shield and Svalinn Shield.

Iote's Shield has some use due to bows being an entire weapon class, and Svalinn Shield is at least somewhat useful in the training tower because armor-effective weapons have a bad habit of showing up there really often when you have an armor on your team.

Litrwolf is such a terrible weapon that a cavalry team typically doesn't even care that it exists because the user is already dead. Maybe if Thani became a thing, though...

Edited May 30, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Tenzen12]

I am thinking about giving Minerva (-HP + Def) Iota shield for my flier emblem. Team work pretty well, with Cordelia, Camila and Palla as other units and especially Cordelia can kill any archer in most case, but they are all quite squishy so having Minerva with her 35 defense and no extra damage from bows might be worth.

Any thoughts?

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Tenzen12 said:

I am thinking about giving Minerva (-HP + Def) Iota shield for my flier emblem. Team work pretty well, with Cordelia, Camila and Palla as other units and especially Cordelia can kill any archer in most case, but they are all quite squishy so having Minerva with her 35 defense and no extra damage from bows might be worth.

Any thoughts?

I guess?  Michalis works just fine with it.

[Lucıůs]

Hello lovely folks of SF~ 

I'm currently building Lord Raven at the moment and I would like to know your take on whether this idea might be good for him or might unfortunately harm him.

Spoiler

I'm planning to build him as a glass cannon Lucina-esque build. He is +Res/-Hp which is kinda meh but at least it did not affect his attack and speed. With his def and res at an equilibrium, I figured Life and Death would fit his stats. As for his weapon, I'm having doubts if I should replace his Brave Axe into Hammer to have a good competition against all the Hectors out there. Not only will this give him a bonus against armors but it would also improve his overall stats. If I am not mistaken, his attack and speed will go up tremendously at 51 and 40, respectively, assuming Life and Death 3 is applied. It might actually be risky though since his survivability is on the line, but with good positioning, I guess i don't see much of a problem...

As for the team he's in, I think he receives a decent amount of support:

->Lucius with Martyr, Wrathful Staff, and Hone Atk 3

-> Ninian with Fury, Escape route, and Fortify Def 2

-> Rebecca with Draw Back, Darting Blow, and Seal Spd (Still thinking about a good C-slot)

But what are your thoughts? I am about to blow a huge amount of feathers for this project (RIP 5☆ Hana and Bartre) and it'd be nice to hear your insights about this build before I take the leap. 

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Lucıůs

[eclipse]

47 minutes ago, Lucıůs said:

Hello lovely folks of SF~ 

I'm currently building Lord Raven at the moment and I would like to know your take on whether this idea might be good for him or might unfortunately harm him.

With no red units to your name, you'll need to worry about the following enemies:

- Hector
- Nino
- Julia
- Cecilia in Horse Emblem
- a other green flier with Iote's Shield
- a competent -raven user of any color, especially if they have Triangle Adept
- Kagero

A Hammer will take care of Hector, at the cost of everyone else.  The "everyone else" is somewhat important, since you really don't want the likes of an enemy Michalis alive.  The spellcasters will (mostly) melt to Brave Axe+ + Life and Death 3.  So will Kagero - as long as you can get into her range before she murders someone!  The last bit are the -raven users, with Henry being the toughest one.  However, I have yet to see a competent Henry in the arena.

The sticky issue is Hector.  If you want a build that will win if you initiate, you'll need:

- Brave Axe+
- Dragon Fang/Dragonic Aura
- Life and Death 3

Which special you use is absolutely dependent on whether or not you think Hector will saunter into Raven's range first.  If he does, then Threaten Def will kick in, which means that Dragonic Aura works.  Otherwise, you MUST have Dragon Fang to guarantee the ORKO on Hector, and Raven needs to be at full (+Atk Hector sort-of ruins his day).

Rebecca should have Hone Spd 3, for everyone else's sake.  Or, she should be replaced by Lyn (for the theme) or Lucina (for effectiveness' sake).

[Lucıůs]

7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

With no red units to your name, you'll need to worry about the following enemies:

- Hector
- Nino
- Julia
- Cecilia in Horse Emblem
- a other green flier with Iote's Shield
- a competent -raven user of any color, especially if they have Triangle Adept
- Kagero

A Hammer will take care of Hector, at the cost of everyone else.  The "everyone else" is somewhat important, since you really don't want the likes of an enemy Michalis alive.  The spellcasters will (mostly) melt to Brave Axe+ + Life and Death 3.  So will Kagero - as long as you can get into her range before she murders someone! 

34 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The sticky issue is Hector.  If you want a build that will win if you initiate, you'll need:

- Brave Axe+
- Dragon Fang/Dragonic Aura
- Life and Death 3

Which special you use is absolutely dependent on whether or not you think Hector will saunter into Raven's range first.  If he does, then Threaten Def will kick in, which means that Dragonic Aura works.  Otherwise, you MUST have Dragon Fang to guarantee the ORKO on Hector, and Raven needs to be at full (+Atk Hector sort-of ruins his day).

 

Oh sweet! This gives me a good bunch of reasons not to replace Brave Axe+ then! I mainly use Lucius as a mage so he can effectively take care of low-res but ultra high-def units like Michalis and Lukas. Kagero isn't much of a threat either, I think, since I always stay out of her range (mostly by accident, phew). As for Hector... *Sigh* he easily wins the duels most of the time. But I'm really excited to try the build you suggested so that lord Raven would hopefully be able to put up a fight. 

21 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 The last bit are the -raven users, with Henry being the toughest one.  However, I have yet to see a competent Henry in the arena.

I very much agree with this like, 110% agree.

One time I did 10th stratum with this team and it was Celica's 11-5 map and oh boy, all mages (like 4 of them) had -Raven tomes on them (Henry was also there)! Terminated my team big time!  

38 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Rebecca should have Hone Spd 3, for everyone else's sake.  Or, she should be replaced by Lyn (for the theme) or Lucina (for effectiveness' sake).

I was honestly debating with myself on whether to put Hone Spd or Savage Blow to her. But I think Hone Spd will help me out more so that everyone can get to double/avoid being doubled. And alas, I've been searching for dear Lyn since day 1 and she still hasn't come home yet... Lucina already has another team and I designed her to a specific role to that team. 

Thank you very much for this! I can already see Brave Axe+ fitting lord Raven. Guess I'm only spending 20k feathers instead of 40k lol 

[Tenzen12]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

I guess?  Michalis works just fine with it.

Of course he does, but I have pretty long line of units waiting for promotion. What I was asking is sacrificing offense (LoD) worth for getting more defense given she is only one capable of potentially tanking?

[Roflolxp54]

So, I've recently gotten hold of Bride Caeda that has +Atk/-HP. I wonder how viable she would be with the Blarblade tome.

She gets 32 Atk and 37 Spd with +Atk and neutral Spd. Her HP is awful though, at only 30.

[eclipse]

15 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

Of course he does, but I have pretty long line of units waiting for promotion. What I was asking is sacrificing offense (LoD) worth for getting more defense given she is only one capable of potentially tanking?

The best way to experiment is to temporarily kick Minerva for Michalis.  You already have a green offensive unit in Camilla, so you can see how a pure tank works.  I find having someone capable of absorbing a hit or two is pretty useful.  YMMV.

4 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

So, I've recently gotten hold of Bride Caeda that has +Atk/-HP. I wonder how viable she would be with the Blarblade tome.

She gets 32 Atk and 37 Spd with +Atk and neutral Spd. Her HP is awful though, at only 30.

Off the top of my head, neutral Tharja has 32 Atk and 34 Spd.  Neutral Nino has 33 Atk and 36 Spd.  If my foggy-as-hell memory is correct about those two, then it should follow that Caeda will do just fine with a -blade tome.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

4 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

So, I've recently gotten hold of Bride Caeda that has +Atk/-HP. I wonder how viable she would be with the Blarblade tome.

She gets 32 Atk and 37 Spd with +Atk and neutral Spd. Her HP is awful though, at only 30.

Shes SLIGHTLY worse than Linde assuming you run the standard 3/4/2/4.

Fury 3, 3/4/2/4 standard on +ATK Caeda with Blarblade have 121 wins · 1 losses · 12 draws, 124/1/13 with Blarblade+

 

Linde is 124 and 126 respectively with +ATK. The difference between these two are Anna, Zephiel(surviving with 2 HP), Camilla, Hawkeye, Fae

 

For another comparison, Fury 3, 6/6/2/4 Ursula is only 121 wins · 2 losses · 11 draws.... and she's already broken as fuck

 

You need monsters like Cordelia to even come close to Blarblade Users tbh

Edited May 31, 2017 by JSND