Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[MaskedAmpharos]

5 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Tomorrow I will get Masked Marth (I’m already at ≈27.5k). How should I build them? I’m leaning to Fury / Swordbreaker / Spur Atk (?) / Reposition (?) / Luna.

Will this do? If I four-star Sully for her SB2, she will be most useful than she’s ever been for me. And I have several tons of Fredericks, so using up one will not be wasteful.

Looks good to me. 

[Astellius]

8 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Tomorrow I will get Masked Marth (I’m already at ≈27.5k). How should I build them? I’m leaning to Fury / Swordbreaker / Spur Atk (?) / Reposition (?) / Luna.

Will this do? If I four-star Sully for her SB2, she will be most useful than she’s ever been for me. And I have several tons of Fredericks, so using up one will not be wasteful.

Your set looks pretty good. I'm training mine up right now, and I'm undecided on her skills. I might do Renewal 2 + Reciprocal Aid, allowing her to function as a healer. I only have one Hinata left, so she's not getting Fury -- I might do Atk or Spd +3, or maybe LnD 2. Not sure yet.

[TheTuckingFypo]

I've got this:

@Rezzy @MrSmokestack @Arcanite

Spoiler

Azama

43/21/26/35/25 (-atk w/Pain equipped)
43/24/23/35/25 (-spd w/Pain equipped)

+Def/-Atk or -Spd

Weapon: Pain 
Assist: Rehabilitate
Special: Imbue
Passive A: Distant Def 3
Passive B: Live to Serve 3
Passive C: Threaten Attack 3/Savage Blow 3

Monks do not kill. Monks do not pick fights. They tank, heal others and let them do the work for him. Azama does exactly this with this build. +DEF nature, Distant Def 3 are necessary to ensure that no one can kill him if they somehow manage to reach him (which they shouldn't be able to anyways). With the exceptions of +Atk Kagero and +Atk Celica, the rest of the cast cannot leave a big enough dent on him to kill (without Skill Inheritance). This would be super irritating for his opponents, since on his turn, he can fully patch up not only his teammates, but also himself with either Martyr/Rehabilitate and Live to Serve. 

Threaten Attack 3 is the most flexible thing in this build, but since it comes in Azama's natural set, it'll lighten SP costs, and is thus recommended.

Edit: Fixed errors and added suggestions made out by @Arcanite and @Ice Dragon

Edited June 13, 2017 by TheTuckingFypo

[Arcanite]

19 minutes ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

I've got this:

Un question

Why Azama?

Is this for you or are you just fiddling around with sets? just wanted to know before I said my thoughts!

[TheTuckingFypo]

Just now, Arcanite said:

Un question

Why Azama?

Is this for you or are you just fiddling around with sets? just wanted to know before I said my thoughts!

Both.

Also. Azama, because he's the only healer to pull this off. Everyone else dies to someone.

[Arcanite]

3 minutes ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

Both.

Also. Azama, because he's the only healer to pull this off. Everyone else dies to someone.

Oh I know Azama is the only one lol hence the strikethrough

 

Martyr relies a lot on Azama himself taking damage. What if someone is about to die and Azama never had the chance to take any hits or anything? Now the heal won't be as effective because he didn't have rehabilitate.

Even so, that's really my only nitpick. Savage blow is also an option for the C skill hee hee~ Looks pretty nuts to me

[Ice Dragon]

41 minutes ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

If one wanted to troll even more, Absorb is suggested as Azama's weapon of choice.

With neutral Atk and Absorb, Azama has 25 Atk, meaning he heals

0 HP if the opponent has 22 Res or more
1 HP if the opponent has 18-21 Res
2 HP if the opponent has 14-17 Res
3 HP if the opponent has 10-13 Res
4 HP if the opponent has 6-9 Res
5 HP if the opponent has 2-5 Res
6 HP if the opponent has 0-1 Res

That's... really awful.

[TheTuckingFypo]

20 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Oh I know Azama is the only one lol hence the strikethrough

 

Martyr relies a lot on Azama himself taking damage. What if someone is about to die and Azama never had the chance to take any hits or anything? Now the heal won't be as effective because he didn't have rehabilitate.

Even so, that's really my only nitpick. Savage blow is also an option for the C skill hee hee~ Looks pretty nuts to me

I fixed that. Removed Martyr and added Savage Blow.

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

With neutral Atk and Absorb, Azama has 25 Atk, meaning he heals

0 HP if the opponent has 22 Res or more
1 HP if the opponent has 18-21 Res
2 HP if the opponent has 14-17 Res
3 HP if the opponent has 10-13 Res
4 HP if the opponent has 6-9 Res
5 HP if the opponent has 2-5 Res
6 HP if the opponent has 0-1 Res

That's... really awful.

Wow. I can't math XD. Fixed. 

[MrSmokestack]

@TheTuckingFypo Sorry I'm a bit late for this, but I'd suggest Gravity or even Candlelight over Pain, since they offer more utility. Unless this is just a training tower build.

Ditto on Distant Defense. You could replace it with either HP Plus or Fortress Defense, if resources were no object; it's not as though Azama will mind the Atk drop. With Dazzling Staff, you can also apply Gravity and Savage Blow's debuffs safely since Azama has rather mediocre Res to deal with mages. The C skill is mostly tech so you can either leave it as is or run some Hone or Spur his teammates might need.

[TheTuckingFypo]

1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

@TheTuckingFypo Sorry I'm a bit late for this, but I'd suggest Gravity or even Candlelight over Pain, since they offer more utility. Unless this is just a training tower build.

Ditto on Distant Defense. You could replace it with either HP Plus or Fortress Defense, if resources were no object; it's not as though Azama will mind the Atk drop. With Dazzling Staff, you can also apply Gravity and Savage Blow's debuffs safely since Azama has rather mediocre Res to deal with mages. The C skill is mostly tech so you can either leave it as is or run some Hone or Spur his teammates might need.

Interesting... I can see both arguments there. I guess that proves that his weapon is somewhat flexible. Fear would also be viable if one wishes to have Savage blow in place of Threaten attack.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Question about the mechanic of "Effective weapons"

As far as i know Luna make it so that you do combat as if enemy defense is halved

While Draconic Aura and friends adds a certain value according to target stats to increase your damage

Mechanic wise does:

Draconic Aura added damage multiplies the 1.5 multiplier

Luna scales ridiculously well with effectiveness because it scales off damage you dealt?

[MaskedAmpharos]

2 minutes ago, JSND said:

Question about the mechanic of "Effective weapons"

As far as i know Luna make it so that you do combat as if enemy defense is halved

While Draconic Aura and friends adds a certain value according to target stats to increase your damage

Mechanic wise does:

Draconic Aura added damage multiplies the 1.5 multiplier

Luna scales ridiculously well with effectiveness because it scales off damage you dealt?

Draconic Aura, Bonfire, Iceberg, etc deals a flat amount of damage that scales off of your own atk/def/res stat. 

Luna's damage scales off of your enemy's def/res stat. 

So for example, if you have an attack of 50, then Draconic Aura will deal 15 damage. It doesn't matter if your opponent has 0 def or 30 def or 60. You will always deal an extra 15 damage with Draconic Aura.

For Luna to deal 15 damage, your opponent would need to have at least 30 def/res. If the opponent has less def/res, like 25, then Luna would only deal 12 damage. If the opponent has more, like 40, then Luna would deal 20 bonus damage. 

So basically, Luna is more effective on bulkier opponents and weaker on frailer ones. Draconic Aura/Bonfire/Iceberg are equally good against bulky or frail opponents.

Does that answer your question?

[DehNutCase]

21 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

So basically, Luna is more effective on bulkier opponents and weaker on frailer ones. Draconic Aura/Bonfire/Iceberg are equally good against bulky or frail opponents.

Strictly speaking, all damaging specials are better vs. bulkier opponents than squishy opponents, if only because bulkier opponents take less damage in general, meaning even a fixed amount of damage adds more, percentage wise, vs. bulkier opponents.

Luna just happens to add more damage even in absolute terms.

Edit: The glimmer line is an exception, of course.

Edited June 13, 2017 by DehNutCase

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 hour ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Draconic Aura, Bonfire, Iceberg, etc deals a flat amount of damage that scales off of your own atk/def/res stat. 

Luna's damage scales off of your enemy's def/res stat. 

So for example, if you have an attack of 50, then Draconic Aura will deal 15 damage. It doesn't matter if your opponent has 0 def or 30 def or 60. You will always deal an extra 15 damage with Draconic Aura.

For Luna to deal 15 damage, your opponent would need to have at least 30 def/res. If the opponent has less def/res, like 25, then Luna would only deal 12 damage. If the opponent has more, like 40, then Luna would deal 20 bonus damage. 

So basically, Luna is more effective on bulkier opponents and weaker on frailer ones. Draconic Aura/Bonfire/Iceberg are equally good against bulky or frail opponents.

Does that answer your question?

Nope the question is about effective weapon. Let me rephrase since.... lets be honest that post is a trainwreck

 

Take say Kagero. 40 ATK

Vs 30 defense enemy 

 

Draconic Aura

 10 from Calc, 12 from converted from atk

Case 1: it does 33 damage because the calculated damage and bonus from Draconic Aura is multiplied by 1.5 from Poison Dagger

Case 2: you get 1.5 damage on caculated only. So you get 27

My question is basically "does Draconic Aura bonus stacks with Effective damage multiplier?"

 

Luna

Usually the simplified calculation of Luna is to "increase your damage by opponents def" but the way it actually works have always been halving your.opponent defense.

So using the same case as above:

Does Luna works like this?

15 cut defense added to 10 calculated damage. 25 x 1.5 = 37 damage rounded down

 

In general i just dont fully understand how effective weapon damage works so thats the core problem

[Vaximillian]

18 minutes ago, JSND said:

My question is basically "does Draconic Aura bonus stacks with Effective damage multiplier?"

No, Draconic skills work off base Atk.

40 Atk becomes 60 Atk due to ×1.5; 60 − 30 = 30 damage.
Draconic Aura bonus damage is 40 × 0.3 = 12 damage.
Total damage is 42.

With Luna 30 Def becomes 15 Def; 60 − 15 = 45 damage.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Vaximillian

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

10 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

No, Draconic skills work off base Atk.

40 Atk becomes 60 Atk due to ×1.5; 60 − 30 = 30 damage.
Draconic Aura bonus damage is 40 × 0.3 = 12 damage.
Total damage is 42.

With Luna 30 Def becomes 15 Def; 60 − 15 = 45 damage.

 

Oh, so Effective Weapons multiplied base attack instead of multiplying the damage.

 

Thanks Vax

[Vaximillian]

3 minutes ago, JSND said:

Oh, so Effective Weapons multiplied base attack instead of multiplying the damage.

Oh, and this, yeah. I thought it was long known that it is Atk that gets multiplied and not damage.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

54 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Oh, and this, yeah. I thought it was long known that it is Atk that gets multiplied and not damage.

I was kinda confused about the mechanic lol so i never really grasped the whole thing

[MaskedAmpharos]

5 hours ago, JSND said:

I was kinda confused about the mechanic lol so i never really grasped the whole thing

Just in general, the damage from specials scales off base stats and not damage dealt.

The only exception is the Glimmer/Astra line, which does stack with effective damage. Doesn't make them any more useful though since if you're doing effective damage to something, chances are you can already kill the thing with any other special (or with no special at all).

[Vaximillian]

10 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Doesn't make them any more useful though since if you're doing effective damage to something, chances are you can already kill the thing with any other special (or with no special at all).

As I usually say, these either tink (in which case you’d have been better off with a different special) or overkill (in which case you’d have been better off with a different special).

[Clogon]

With the introduction of Firesweep Lance, Sword and Axe will be coming too. At 15 might, they give a significant damage boost over Brave+. They also free up the Desperation B slot. But I am having trouble seeing the advantages over Quad Brave users. These guys basically deal 7 more damage per hit, have 5 more SPD and a free B Slot at the cost of being able to Counter. Granted they can run Death Blow so that they do not sacrifice any bulk while still having the +1 ATK and same SPD as LaD3 Quad users.

Desperation LaD Quad users basically kill everything. Will the Firesweep variety be able to match up? Using Cordelia as an example, since only Firesweep Lance is coming atm, she kills like 5 less people using Firesweep, Hone Fliers, +ATK nature, Moon Bow, LAD3, Quickened Seal compared to Brave Lance, Hone Fliers, +ATK nature, Gale Force, LAD3, Desperation, +ATK seal. Unlike her Bridal version, she can tank a hit with her higher stats and access to Fortify Fliers. It will even enable her WoM dancer to warp to her so that she is basically guaranteed to kill 3 enemies in 1 go. This means that the usual 3 turn set up/2 turn+dancer for desperation is non existant.

I am having trouble seeing what kind of team they would be good where Quad users are not better. Availability is the only issue that pops up.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Clogon

[Ice Dragon]

19 minutes ago, Clogon said:

With the introduction of Firesweep Lance, Sword and Axe will be coming too. At 15 might, they give a significant damage boost over Brave+. They also free up the Desperation B slot. But I am having trouble seeing the advantages over Quad Brave users. These guys basically deal 7 more damage per hit, have 5 more SPD and a free B Slot at the cost of being able to Counter. Granted they can run Death Blow so that they do not sacrifice any bulk while still having the +1 ATK and same SPD as LaD3 Quad users.

Desperation LaD Quad users basically kill everything. Will the Firesweep variety be able to match up? Using Cordelia as an example, since only Firesweep Lance is coming atm, she kills like 5 less people using Firesweep, Hone Fliers, +ATK nature, Moon Bow, LAD3, Quickened Seal compared to Brave Lance, Hone Fliers, +ATK nature, Gale Force, LAD3, Desperation, +ATK seal. Unlike her Bridal version, she can tank a hit with her higher stats and access to Fortify Fliers. It will even enable her WoM dancer to warp to her so that she is basically guaranteed to kill 3 enemies in 1 go. This means that the usual 3 turn set up/2 turn+dancer for desperation is non existant.

I am having trouble seeing what kind of team they would be good where Quad users are not better. Availability is the only issue that pops up.

You're not running Death Blow with a Firesweep weapon. You're running Life and Death because defenses don't matter when your opponent can't counterattack.

Units that can't afford the Spd loss from a Brave weapon, especially those without access to the movement-type-specific buffs, appreciate the Firesweep's higher damage and lack of a Spd penalty.

Frail units that normally do die to a counterattack appreciate not having to run Escutcheon, Ardent Sacrifice, and Desperation, thus having those slots open for other skills..

 

26 minutes ago, Clogon said:

It will even enable her WoM dancer to warp to her so that she is basically guaranteed to kill 3 enemies in 1 go.

Which requires you to fail to kill one of the first two opponents in 2 hits. Many of the popular Brave weapon users actually have some trouble letting the opponent counterattack in the first place.

[Clogon]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're not running Death Blow with a Firesweep weapon. You're running Life and Death because defenses don't matter when your opponent can't counterattack.

I agree but I am sure there are some speedy units that prefer the +1 ATK over the +5 SPD.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Units that can't afford the Spd loss from a Brave weapon, especially those without access to the movement-type-specific buffs, appreciate the Firesweep's higher damage and lack of a Spd penalty.

Can you please give me an example?

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Frail units that normally do die to a counterattack appreciate not having to run Escutcheon, Ardent Sacrifice, and Desperation, thus having those slots open for other skills..

I totally forgot that Desperation builds need Ardent Sacrifice too. Yeah the extra versitily is great dispite the lower kill power.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which requires you to fail to kill one of the first two opponents in 2 hits. Many of the popular Brave weapon users actually have some trouble letting the opponent counterattack in the first place.

I am not saying it is a common occurrence just a possible outcome of the Quad build.

 

Edit:

Thanks for reminding me of the added versatility! It makes me appreciate the weapons even more.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Clogon

[Ice Dragon]

13 minutes ago, Clogon said:

Can you please give me an example?

I haven't run numbers, but Bride Charlotte on @Thor Odinson's suggestion comes to mind first with her 36/32 offenses where she entirely has the potential to be fast with a neutral stat spread of 46/56/37/19/14 with Firesweep Lance+ and Life and Death 3. With a +Spd nature, Hone Atk 3, and Hone Spd 3, she one-hit kills every fast sword that she cannot double attack (except things like +Spd Fury Karel).

 

 

Since I did run the numbers for Firesweep Lance+ on Peri, where it does lose out compared to Brave Lance+ is against very bulky lances (only Gwendolyn since Lancebreaker lets Peri barely punch through an unbuffed Effie in one round) and moderately bulky greens. On the other hand, Peri can indiscriminately attack greens at will with Firesweep since they cannot counterattack, and she punches through any green without Triangle Adept in two rounds of combat (and a Draconic Aura activation) without losing a single point of health.

 

Since Firesweep means you can attack without fear of counterattack, it's entirely possible to forgo an offensive B skill altogether and be annoying with Hit and Run. Bride Charlotte can run Renewal and Reciprocal Aid off of her massive HP pool as an off-healer since she should never be getting attacked.

[Clogon]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Since Firesweep means you can attack without fear of counterattack, it's entirely possible to forgo an offensive B skill altogether and be annoying with Hit and Run. Bride Charlotte can run Renewal and Reciprocal Aid off of her massive HP pool as an off-healer since she should never be getting attacked.

Yeah, freeing up the Assist and B slot is such a major + for the weapon. Hit and Run/Drag Back will be very good on them. The minor loss of some kill coverage for the huge boost in versatility is very appealing since you have teamates to cover the missing kills.

Edit:

Lunge+firesweep on defense sounds SO evil!

Edited June 14, 2017 by Clogon