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How Many Archetypes Do You Acknowledge?


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Ah archetypes, are there 333333333, 333, or just 3? These are disputed by fans. Some shove (more like smite) virtually everyone into some archetype. Whereas others state that few true archetypes exist (I doubt anyone can really say there aren't any at all).

For myself, I recognize the Jagen, the Gotoh, the Merric, the Navarre/Nabarl, and the Red & Green Knights. Yes, I deny that the Est truly exists, because outside of Est and Nino, is it truly possible to say we've had any? A true Est would need good or amazing bases for their level, incredible growths, and a late joining time. Donnel and Mozu are just plain old growth units.

With regards to Merrics, I acknowledge only 3 true Merrics: Merric, Asbel Lhant, and Soren (and Luc).

Lugh, Lewyn, Ced, Ricken, and Hayato are all simply "inspired by Merric". They possess fragments of the Merric archetype, but not all the criteria. All the criteria are: a relation to the main character, green hair, male, wind magic affinity, and early joining time (at least in one game- as Merric himself lacks this in FE3). Other "inspired" characters include Melady, Cherche and Jill- they're all inspired by Minerva. But in this case, I by "inspired" I mean a cohesion between certain units, but not so tight and or so frequent as to warrant calling it an archetype.

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Jagen- (my definitions)- "Early game promoted unit who is much stronger than the other starting units."

 All of the start of the game paladins are Jagens to me. Even Seth, FE7!Marcus, and Titania. There is no special classification for the "good" ones. I would even consider FE10!Sothe and the chick from FE5 as Jagens.

 

Christmas Cavaliers- "red and green colored cavaliers"

 

Gotoh- "Lategame joining unit who can help deal with the endgame if for some reason you got screwed and otherwise can't beat it."  I've never really thought about this one as an archetype before, but I guess it definitely exists.

 

THAT'S IT. There is no such thing as an "Est". At least not by the way people seem to see it. People seem to try to throw this moniker around onto just about any unit they can to the point where it has become bastardized to me.

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What is a Navarre nowadays? An edgy myrmidon? A myrmidon recruited from the enemy? An edgy myrmidon recruited from the enemy?

The last time we actually recruited a myrmidon from the enemy was Zihark in Path of Radiance. (Shadow Dragon need not apply)
Is there such an archetype anymore?

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Red and Green Cavaliers, the Jagen (and its spin-off the Oifey, who can still be useful despite being pre-promotes), the Est (I see it as "any unit who joins at a low level with low stats while the rest of the army is a higher level, but grow to be among the best units in the army, even if it's not at the end of the game." So imo Mozu and Donnel count, as well as Hayato on Birthright, and Coirpre from FE4), the Navarre, and the Gotoh. Pegasus Knight trio, though that one's been slightly fading as of late.

I see the Merric as more of a downplayed archetype, as relatively few of them fit the bill. As for villains go, there's been quite a few Camii as well (though how well they're done is a topic for another conversation - that "Creating a Camus" thread in particular).
 

28 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

What is a Navarre nowadays? An edgy myrmidon? A myrmidon recruited from the enemy? An edgy myrmidon recruited from the enemy?

I always saw it as "an edgy myrmidon with a mysterious and/or dark and troubled past, who may or may not start as an enemy." Navarre himself, Galzus, Shiva, Rutger, Karel, Zhihark, and Lon'qu fit the bill imo.

Edited by Extrasolar
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Jagen: Useful early game promoted unit with bad growths. (i.e. Jagen himself, FE6!Marcus)

Oifaye: Early game promoted unit with good growths (ie FE7!Marcus, Oifaye himself, God Seth)

Gotoh: Usually joins last chapter, meant to help if player is underleveled/final chapter is too hard (Athos)

Camus: Good guy on the wrong side (i.e. Eldigan, Selena)

cavaliers: Strengths lie in different stats, and are usually early game units. Most of the time one knight has red armor, the other has green armor.  (i.e. Sain and Kent, Forde and Kyle)

Tiki: mid-late game units that turn into dragons. Weak stats but amazing growths but weapons are limited in use (i.e. Fae, Myrrh)

Pegasus Trio: Trio of pegasi in games. Can usually perform triangle attack, and are most of the time related (i.e. Farina, Flora, Florina, or Katria, Est, Palla)

Hardin: ANy person of a high class (usually an emperor or king), that, due to some tragic circumstance, is now a villain (i.e. Arvis, Zephiel)

Est: Any unit that has low bases/levels and usually joins endgame but has good-great growths (i.e. Nino, Amelia)

^Those are the only ones I acknowedge. 

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Props to Kaze and Saizo giving us the Christmas Ninja archetype.

I refer to all chapter 1 paladins as Jagens, but only Jagen and Gunter get the honor of being called a "true jagen" in my eyes. FE6 Marcus I'm on the fence with. Clearly his bases dwarf the other two, but his growths are only a tad bit higher overall.

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I ackknowledge the Jagens, Oifeys, Gotohs and the RG Cavaliers, but all the others are just... not Archetypes. There is no other character than Est who has 70-80% grwoths in almost every stat. Nino and Ewan are nothing like Est. Instead od an "Est Archetype", I'd rather say there is a "Tiltyu/Elice Archetype": A low-level magic users (who joins later than usual) that is hard to train up but has somthing special going for him/her (outstanding growths, unique weapon, special skills...). Units would be: Elice, Tiltyu, (Canas,) Nino, Ewan, Knoll, Tormod etc.

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jagen

stuff like the red and green cavaliers and the pegasus trio are less archetypes and more traditions. they don't have much in common aside from being red and green cavaliers and pegasus trios

jagen is the only one where i can actually say "oh i guess this character is the jagen of this game"

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On 3/12/2017 at 8:24 AM, unique said:

stuff like the red and green cavaliers and the pegasus trio are less archetypes and more traditions. they don't have much in common aside from being red and green cavaliers and pegasus trios

But the Red and Green Cavaliers have stats in common, with the Red focusing on Strength and Defense, and the Green focusing on Speed and Skill (granted, whichever knight focuses on which two attributes tends to get switched). Not to mention, they often share the contrasting personalities: Red Cavaliers tend to be serious and intense, while the Green is more laidback and friendly (Kieran & Oscar; Saizo and Kaze; Cain and Abel, going off their Heroes incarnations; Naoise and Alec; Kent and Sain, etc.)

As for the Pegasus Trio, while some of the time they're sisters like in FE1 and 6, have personality traits in common too: The oldest one is the most serious and responsible, the youngest one tends to be happy-go-lucky and childish, and the middle one is...the middle one.

Most of the Jagens don't have any personality traits in common  Sothe is absolutely nothing like Jagen or Arran. The only thing they share is starting stronger than everyone else, but becoming weaker than most other units in the lategame.

Edited by Extrasolar
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Jaegan: EXP hog who starts out better than others but may or may not continue to be that way (Seth, Titania, Frederick)

Pure Jaegan: EXP hog who starts out better than others but will DEFINITELY NOT continue to be that way (Jaegan himself)

Navarre: Early-game recruitable sword-user with a killing edge. Usually starts as an enemy (Navarre, Rutger, Guy, Joshua, Zihark, Lon'qu)

Est: Unit with a lower level but potential for greatness (Est, Nino, + FE8 trainees and 3DS villagers if you are playing without infinite grinding)

Bastian/Lucia: My own invention. Units with poorer stats, given in case better units were not recruited, trained, or kept alive. (Shadow Dragon has lots of these)

Gotoh: Powerful unit hampered by their late joining time (Gotoh, Karel, Athos)

Christmas Cavaliers: Red focusing on Speed and Skill, Green focusing on Strength (Cain and Abel, Allan and Lance, Kent and Sain, Kyle and Forde, Sully and Stahl)

Pegasus sisters: 3 peg. knights who can perform triangle attack (Thany, Tate, and Juno, Florina, Fiora, and Farina, Vanessa, Tana, and Syrene)

Edited by SullyMcGully
Accidentally posted before finished
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10 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

Jaegan: EXP hog who starts out better than others but may or may not continue to be that way (Seth, Titania, Frederick)

And this is reasoning that I'm understanding less and less with each passing day. In fact, I think "EXP charity donor" would be more apt. And that's because of the fact that they start off  higher than everyone else, making them require less effort than everyone else. Which in turns allows the effort that could otherwise go to them to be more easily spread amongst everyone else in the army.

13 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

Pure Jaegan: EXP hog who starts out better than others but will DEFINITELY NOT continue to be that way (Jaegan himself)

Clearly, you have never played FE 1/3pt1, and given him a Speedwing and an Energy Ring. Or watched the playthrough that has this videoas its 2nd one in the list.

21 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

Est: Unit with a lower level but potential for greatness (Est, Nino, + FE8 trainees and 3DS villagers if you are playing without infinite grinding)

Except that lower level is what makes a unit an "EXP hog", and that "potential for grestness" actually doesn't allow them to become stronger than other units.

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14 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

What is a Navarre nowadays? An edgy myrmidon? A myrmidon recruited from the enemy? An edgy myrmidon recruited from the enemy?

The last time we actually recruited a myrmidon from the enemy was Zihark in Path of Radiance. (Shadow Dragon need not apply)
Is there such an archetype anymore?

I mean, PoR was the last time we saw a lot of long-running archetypes for the franchise. Hell, some, like Bord and Cord, died in FE7.

Jaegan: EXP hog who starts out better than others but may or may not continue to be that way (Seth, Titania, Frederick)

From what I remember, Oifey is the reference for these kinds of units nowadays.

Edited by Slumber
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Hmm The only archetypes that have really stood the test of time

Jagen-Initially "strong" pre-promoted unit with abysmal growths meant to be used to support the development of other units rather than solo the game(though naturally some people can very well do so) Usually old and past their prime

Oifey-A early pre-promoted unit with good growths-adult but not old

Gotoh-An endgame unit given to help out with the final fight in case the player got screwed over unit wise or such.

Red Green Duo-same class different stat specialties both join around the same time

None of the other archetypes have really stood the test of time to survive to the newer main series titles... 

 

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I recognise the Jagen, the Christmas Knights, the Pegasus Sisters, the Navarre and the Gotoh, personally. 

The Christmas Knights remain my favourite :D I am ever hopeful they randomly add them to Echoes xD 

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1. Jeigan - The "starter prepromote" (usually a Paladin), intended to help players out early game. I include all forms of Jegans here, including "Oifeys" like Seth and Titania.

2. Christmas Cavaliers - Can't be Fire Emblem without the Red and Green Cavalier (or Ninjas in the case of Fates).

3. The Trainee - Probably fits more in line of "Est," but is essentially a weak unit with poor starting stats, but becomes amazing if properly trained. Some examples include Ross, Amelia, Donnel, and Mozu.

4. Pegasus Trio - The reason I don't say sisters is because they are not always sisters. Also, true Pegasus Trios know the magnificent "Triangle Attack."

5. Gotoh - I really don't call them Gotohs and instead just call them "Late OP Units." Essentially, they show up at the end to save the iron players who do not reset when a character dies, giving them a chance at beating the game.

6. Bandit Twins - They do exist, even if they are not always discussed. Where is the Heroes version?

7. Camus - I acknowledge the term, but I really don't use it myself.

Edited by Sire
Green, folks. Cavaliers are Red and Green.
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3 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Red and green~

Nah, it's totally Red and Blue. I mean, the enemy forces are always red and the player forces are always blue!

Thanks for the correction, it has been fixed.

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Jagen/Jeigan: This archetype is so strong that I and many of my RPG-playing friends use it outside the context of Fire Emblem, meaning a character who joins initially much stronger than the rest but does not remain that way. (For instance, Kazan in Legaia 2 is a blatant one.) I find most attempts to subclassify jeigans as missing the point of the archetype. They ALL get significantly weaker relatively; how much doesn't feel important to me, and in many cases is debatable anyway (Frederick and either Marcus, depending on where you draw the line).

Red/green cavaliers: I don't refer to them by any other name, but yeah it's an obvious trend that has basically continued into the present (although Fates mixed up it by making them ninjas).


That's basically it. Navarre (myrmidon with a killing edge recruited from the enemy) is another I might consider though it's been largely retired since we haven't seen it since PoR Zihark. "Noble silver bow sniper" (does this have a name? The Jeorge?) is one we saw a lot of for a while, but has seemingly been retired with Innes. "Est" doesn't seem to translate to much besides "significantly underlevelled" but who does and doesn't qualify isn't always clear. Is Tormod the Est of PoR, and if so does FE6 have around 5 of them due to Sophia/Zeiss/Fir/Lilina/Wendy all being at least as underlevelled as Tormod was relative to their join times?

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The Jagen: Pre-promote, usually joining in the first chapter, with good bases and awful growths whose job is to act as a crutch until the units you actually want to use get a few levels on them; includes Jagen, Arran, FE6 Marcus and Gunter in Revelation. Has a subtype, the Oifey, where said unit has good bases and good enough growths to be useful for the entire game; includes Oifey himself, Seth, Titania and Frederick.

The Christmas Duo: Two, characters, usually Cavaliers, who are color-coded red and green and who generally work as a team, with different stat specializations, regardless of which stats; examples include Cain and Abel, Alen and Lance, Sain and Kent, and Sully and Stahl.

The Camus: "Noble" antagonist who stays loyal to his or her lord to the end, also sometimes blond(e) and sometimes a mounted unit. Examples include Camus himself, Eldigan, Brunnya and Lloyd and Linus.

And that's about it. Most of the other "archetypes" have maybe one or two things in common, but not enough to classify them as recurring archetypes, or are otherwise too ill-defined.

Edited by AzureSen
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There's too few to be an actual archetype at this point, but I wish Intsys continues to make asshole snipers ie Innes/Shinon/Takumi. Though they need to stop gaining more power with each incarnation. 

I'm pretty open to accepting any type of archetype though, just show me a clear correlation between the units and I'll buy into it.

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Were there any asshole snipers before Innes? Though yeah if we overlook the remakes and exclude RD Rolf that's three snipers in a row who are kinda that way. (Takumi's not technically a sniper but he joins higher-levelled unlike most archers so eh he works.)

I wasn't thinking about NPCs with my previous post but yeah "Camuses" are certainly a recurring NPC in this series... though the noble general fighting for the wrong side is a trope throughout fiction so it seems unnecessary to come up with a FE-specific name for it.

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I definitely acknowledge the Jagen, Cain, Abel, Est, pegasus sisters, and Gotoh Archetypes.

As for things like the Ogma, Cord, Bord, Navarre, Julian, Lena, Merric, etc. archetypes... sometimes I do? I mean, I definitely think that pairs like Lot & Wade and Dorcas & Bartre are very similar to Bord and Cord. Same with Ayra and Rutger being quite similar to Navarre. Though I don't think that characters like Raven and Gerik are similar enough to Ogma (aside from being mercenaries). Same with Azel and Erk not being similar enough to Merric (despite them all being mages).

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I acknowledge the Jagen, and the Red and Green Duo. I would normally recognize the Navarre, the Ogma, Lena, Julian, Merric, the Minerva, the Est( Low level with decent bases and good growths that is under-leveled compared to the other units), and the pegasus trio but really, they've been lacking most of the time. I more or less acknowledge the fact we usually get units of these types in the game. We usually get a Myrmidon (or Samurai in fates), a mercenary, a female cleric, a thief, a mage, a wyvern rider/lord, a trainee as I like to call them, and usually 3 pegasus knights (awakening made me very sad with the lack of triangle attack)

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The way I see it, there are a decent amount, albeit some less common than others. I'm trying to exclude archetypes that are purely "the first character you get of X class", because in order for it to truly count as an archetype, it needs to go a bit deeper than that.

  • The CAIN/ABEL, AKA CHRISTMAS KNIGHTS: A pair of two units of the same class, with one having a more hotheaded personality, and the other being more calm, with the differences in their stat balances tailored to match. These units are almost always Cavaliers, although on rare occasions they will be other classes instead, and almost always one of the characters will be given a predominantly-green color scheme, and the other a predominantly-red color scheme. They will almost always be recruited very early in the game, and frequently, although not always, at the same time.
    Examples: Cain/Abel, Boey/Mae, Luke/Roderick, Noish/Alec, Kane/Alva, Alen/Lance, Kent/Sain, Forde/Kyle, Oscar/Kieran, Sully/Stahl, Kaze/Saizou
  • The CECIL: A bit of a sub-archetype to the Christmas Knights, and the archetype's awkward, less-common little sibling. A third unit of the same class as the Christmas Knights who is more or less equally as viable as they are, and who generally either stands in for them in their absence, is somehow affiliated or friends with them, or both. They tend to have their own third type of stat balance, as well as their own color scheme.
    Examples: Cecil, Lowen, Franz, Makalov, Frey, Kagero
  • The JAGEN: Some love them, some hate them, everyone knows them. The prepromoted unit who joins the party very early on, if not from the get-go, and are intended serve primarily as a "panic button" unit to help you out of tricky situations. They're usually a class that promotes from Cavalier, but not always.
    Examples: Jagen, Arran (in FE3/12), Quan, Eyvel, Marcus, Seth, Titania, Sothe (in FE10), Frederick, Gunter
  • The DRAUG: The first Knight recruited into the player's party, and a vassal in service of either the main character or another plot-important ally. They often join very early on.
    Examples: Draug, Lukas, Arden, Bors, Oswin, Gilliam, Gatrie, Kellam, Effie
  • The GORDIN: The first Archer recruited into the player's party. They often have humble origins, although not always. They often join very early on.
    Examples: Gordin, Python, Ryan, Midir, Tania, Runan, Wolt, Wil, Rebecca, Neimi, Rolf, Leonardo, Virion, Setsuna
  • The NORNE: A more specific sub-archetype of the Gordin. A plucky young villager who is proficient in archery and joins the protagonists early on, often as a result of being affected by some misfortune that protagonists seek to oppose. They are often tied to another recruitable character via a childhood friendship.
    Examples: Tania, Wil, Rebecca, Neimi, Norne
  • The BORD/CORD: A pair of two axe Fighters, often with complementary personalities, similar to the Christmas Knights. Much like the Christmas Knights, there is often one more fiery Fighter with a more offense-oriented stat build, and a calmer Fighter with a more balanced or Skill-oriented stat build. Also much like the Christmas Knights, they tend to come at the same time as a pair.
    Examples: Bord/Cord, Orsin/Halvan, Lot/Wade, Dorcas/Bartre, Garcia/Ross
  • The NAVARRE: Often the first Myrmidon the player recruits, Navarres very often wield Killing Edges, are almost exclusively recruited from the enemy side, and tend to have long hair and rather mysterious, secretive vibes.
    Examples: Navarre, Samuel, Ayra, Chulainn, Shiva, Rutger, Guy, Joshua, Marisa, Zihark, Lon'qu
  • The LENA: A healer who joins the party early in the game after they are rescued or escape from enemy captors or assailants, and/or they come to the protagonists seeking help.
    Examples: Lena, Silque, Edain, Elen, Serra, Natasha, Laura, Maribelle
  • The POWER TRIO: A trio of characters of the same class, very often a set of three Pegasus Knight sisters, with a special bond with one another. They can perform a Triangle Attack together when arranged in a certain position around a target enemy.
    Examples: Palla/Catria/Est, Vampa/Fetra/Eliu, Bleg/Meng/Maybell, Shanna/Thea/Juno, Bors/Gwendolyn/Barthe, Florina/Fiora/Farina, Vanessa/Tana/Syrene, Boyd/Oscar/Rolf, Marcia/Tanith/Elincia(/Sigrun), Barst/Bord/Cord (FE12 only)
  • The EST: A character who joins later in the game, severely underleveled, but with great potential when trained. They are almost always fairly young in age.
    Examples: Est, Coirpre, Charlot, Miranda, Sara, Sophia, Zeiss, Nino, Ewan, Elincia
  • The ARRAN/SAMSON: A pair of two units around mid-game, of whom the player can either recruit one or the other, but not both.
    Examples: Arran/Samson, Deen/Sonya, Iuchar/Iucharba, Olwen/Ilios, Saias/Ced, Lalum/Elffin, Echidna/Bartre, Wallace/Geitz, Harken/Karel
  • The GOTOH: A very powerful character, generally elderly who joins the party close to or during the endgame in order to provide the player with a failsafe in case they've lost many strong characters already.
    Examples: Gotoh, Mycen, Ced (FE5), Karel (FE6), Athos, Tibarn, Naesala, Giffca, Nagi, Basilio, Flavia
  • The GHARNEF: A sinister manipulator with a proficiency in the magical arts. While rarely the true final boss of the game, they are the ultimate driving force behind many of the story's calamities.
    Examples: Gharnef, Judah, Manfroy, Nergal, Riev, Lyon, Sephiran, Validar, Iago
  • The CAMUS: An enemy commander with a just and noble heart, but convictions that force them to fight the protagonists' party against either group's wishes.
    Examples: Camus, Eldigan, Ishtar, Reinhardt, Galle, Lloyd, Linus, Selena, Shiharam, Levail, Xander (Birthright)
  • The BANDIT BROTHERS: A more recent archetype, originating in Binding Blade. A pair of bandit siblings who are quite fond of each other, and often have rather flamboyant and somewhat effeminate personalities. Their character designs tend to directly call back to the original pair to a noticeably greater degree than most archetypes.
    Examples: Maggie/Rose, Paul/Jasmine, Pain/Agony, Vincent/Victor, Lloyd/Llewelyn
Edited by Topaz Light
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I think that it's more like two types of Est.

The magic ones usually have really high growths in one stat (usually MAG), average/good growths in others, and are terrible with def/hp, like sophia, nino, ewan, etc. Usually becomes pretty powerful, but can also sometimes turn out pretty average or bad.

However, there are the ones which are weird, like zeiss, which has pretty awesome growths all around and don't really fit the "est" archetype to me.

I dunno really, but i tend to like leveling up est-like characters, cause sometimes i get really good RNG and end up capping magic at level 10 before promotion.

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