Turkey conflict

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

As you might have heared in the news the Netherlands didn't allow Turkey's familiy minister Fatma Betül Sayan Kaya to arrange a whistle-stop pro Erdogan for the votum of the constitutional reform on 4th April because the NL doesn't support a politics which offends civil rights.
The reaction of Turkey's government was radical: They called Europe as anti-democratic, threatened the NL with economical sanctions and made a comparison with the NS-regime, of course with the target to rile the Turkish living people in NL up. The NL still doesn't apology for that.
This conflict could affect the parliament election in the NL on 15th March. The Islam-opponent Geert Wilders has a realistic chance to get the majority of the votes. Turkey's reaction could be good fodder for him in his anti-Islam campaign. And this would make the relationship between these two countries only harder. On the other hand 82% of the NL population agreed with the current government's decision of cancelling the arrangement, so it also could catch up some potential pro Wilders voters.

Similar situation happened in Germany a few days ago. Several whistle-stops were cancelled (however for a different reason) and as a result Erdogan also made a comparison with the NS-regime. However unlike in the NL a location for a whistle-stop could be found after several attempts.

Do you agree with the reaction of the NL that the arranging of Kaya's whistle-stop was forbidden? You know it belongs to the free speech, but is it still free speech if it's a whistle-stop pro a politics which restricts this?
Also how to deal with Turkey's provocativeness?

Edited March 14, 2017 by Magillanica Lou Mayvin

[Excellen Browning]

okay, since I dont speak horrid English, I'll explain. Last saturday, the Turkish minister of family affairs visited the Netherlands to campaign for the Turkish referendum to give the Turkish president more power. Apparently a demonstration of Dutch Turks formed outside the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam, (afaik you need a permit for political demonstrations, not sure if they had one, but probably not). Around midnight the crowd started rioting and police dispersed them.

So now the Turkish government is calling us fascists and nazis, says the police violence was disproportionate(complete nonsense), and is threatening economic sanctions against us(not like we care). Really just normal Turkish foreign policy.

No one so far has really given much of a shit, but if anything it steels the resolve of alt-right nationalist type people.

We have parliamentary elections tomorrow, and by the way we don't have a president.

[Wist]

Unfortunately it looks like sensibly self-serving policy. The incident in Rotterdam was after the revocation of the foreign minister's landing permission, right? And the AKP have already trying to drum up support at home and publicity amongst the Turkish diaspora in Europe for Erdogan's power-grab referendum. Surely it was anticipated provoking another incident would accomplish this by creating an excuse to berate the Netherlands for insulting Turkish democracy, which has obviously made both national and international news.

I mean, the threat of Turkey imposing sanctions isn't credible. Hell, the Netherlands invests in Turkey more than any other country. But even the opposition is condemning the Netherlands. So it's evident this conflict has succeeded in capturing politically significant nationalist passions amongst Turks (at least in Turkey).

Of course it ought be fairly considered whether the Dutch politicians involved should have acted differently, or if current laws are inadequate for this situation. But I don't believe the Netherlands behaved strangely. The demonstration was stopped because of the threat to public safety as a result of the manner in which the demonstration was being held.

So I guess it depends on how how you weigh freedom of speech and assembly versus public safety concern, and in this case if you trust how the public safety risk was determined.

As for how to deal with Turkey's provocations... in a sense, the Netherlands, Germany, and Austria (so far) are being treated like pawns, whether or not they allow demonstrations, though none of it unwittingly, and I'm not convinced any real action would be helpful. I would think it's best for them to hold their ground diplomatically, let these events blow over, and see what happens after Turkey has its referendum. But I'm really curious what others think the response should be, especially you Netherlanders!

[Excellen Browning]

The Turkish minister was told beforehand she was not welcome in the Netherlands, as was another Turkish minister, for trying to hold speeches about the referendum here. She came regardless, and was stopped from entering the Turkish Consulate in Rotterdam, along with her retinue (and possibly armed guards) and the Turkish Consul in Rotterdam called up people to come hold a demonstration (which was completely illegal, you need a permit to hold a demonstration).

All in all it was some really shitty behaviour from her, and she's free to try and get her case heard by the EU court of human rights. She did not enjoy political immunity, that's a right only reserved for heads of state, prime ministers, ministers of foreign affairs and diplomats. What still confuses me is the legal basis for banning her from the Netherlands. All of the articles I've read so far speak of "ongewenste vreemdeling", but that's only applicable to EU citizens. The only other option as far as I know is an "inreisverbod", a ban from being in the Netherlands, which can be applied to non-EU folks.

Regardless, the fact she went to Rotterdam despite being told she was banned would normally have her serving jailtime so she got off really easy all told.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Excellen Browning

[Thane]

Isn't this just Erdogan pounding his chest to get more power back home, knowing full well the EU can't do anything because of the refugee agreement? This was bound to happen sooner or later, and I feel for the Netherlands.

[ping]

9 hours ago, Thane said:

Isn't this just Erdogan pounding his chest to get more power back home, knowing full well the EU can't do anything because of the refugee agreement? This was bound to happen sooner or later, and I feel for the Netherlands.

It is, with a good helping of 'No, it is you who is totally fascist and me imprisoning journalists is child's play compared to your vile evil!'. But to be fair, it seems to me that Rutte wasn't exactly sad about the opportunity to puff his own chest a little bit right before the election, especially with the (extreme right-wing) Geert Wilders being close to winning the election. €: *getting the most votes in the election. As far as I know, him becoming the prime minister is basically impossible since no other party is going to support Wilders.

Edited March 14, 2017 by ping

[Thane]

1 minute ago, ping said:

It is, with a good helping of 'No, it is you who is totally fascist and me imprisoning journalists is child's play compared to your vile evil!'. But to be fair, it seems to me that Rutte wasn't exactly sad about the opportunity to puff his own chest a little bit right before the election, especially with the (extreme right-wing) Geert Wilders being close to winning the election.

One would think that with all the conflicts going on right now and the mess that is Brexit, people wouldn't be so quick to vote for a guy like him. But you're right; a newspaper back in my country said that it could actually somehow work in the favor of both Erdogan and Rutte.

So how are the polls looking? When do you guys vote?

[Yojinbo]

17 hours ago, Wist said:

So it's evident this conflict has succeeded in capturing politically significant nationalist passions amongst Turks [...]

That's like the easiest thing in the world to do though.

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

One would think that with all the conflicts going on right now and the mess that is Brexit, people wouldn't be so quick to vote for a guy like him. But you're right; a newspaper back in my country said that it could actually somehow work in the favor of both Erdogan and Rutte.

So how are the polls looking? When do you guys vote?

We vote tomorrow. As of now the landscape presented by the polls look very splintered. Out of the 150 seats the populists and the currently reigning right wing party are at about 25-22 seats. The greens, democrats, socialists and. Christian democrats are all in the 16-20 range. Labour is steering to a bloodbath and a bunch of newbies and fringe parties will probably stay at around 1-5 seats.

The populists have been losing position in the polls pretty consistantly but we've heard that story twice before . There's a good chance they won't be the biggest but its still a solid possibility. It hardly matters however since they are in self imposed isolation and in the Netherlands you need partners to govern.

 

 

 

[Thane]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

We vote tomorrow. As of now the landscape presented by the polls look very splintered. Out of the 150 seats the populists and the currently reigning right wing party are at about 25-22 seats. The greens, democrats, socialists and. Christian democrats are all in the 16-20 range. Labour is steering to a bloodbath and a bunch of newbies and fringe parties will probably stay at around 1-5 seats.

The populists have been losing position in the polls pretty consistantly but we've heard that story twice before . There's a good chance they won't be the biggest but its still a solid possibility. It hardly matters however since they are in self imposed isolation and in the Netherlands you need partners to govern.

I see. What do you think the best course for the Netherlands is? I dearly don't want to see the EU more fractured; the Brexit nonsense has led to so much instability in Europe and it plays right into the hands of some of the less benevolent competitors, to put it mildly. 

[Moblin Major General]

Ataturk must be rolling in his grave right now. Erdogan has basically ruined everything he did to get Turkey up to snuff.

[Excellen Browning]

So who are you guys voting tomorrow? For me, VVD is definitely off the list. Their health care reforms are messy to say the least, and I would like to see the next parliament do something about it. Furthermore: PVV is out because it's the PVV, PvdD is out because their focus is animal rights, SGP is out because they're fundamentalist christians. SP is out because they're idiots.

 

My core issues this election:

• Temporary contracts are dumb and bad, and while very popular right now, need to be mostly eliminated.
• The latest batch of health care reforms need some major reworking. Insurers make some mad profit while they're not even for-profit companies, the eigen risico is outrageously high and the budget cuts imposed on health care providers have gone too far. They've commonly hit the point where increased efficiency can make up the difference and quality of care and capacity have often suffered. Several hospitals have faced insolvency.
• Department of Defense spending should be increased to more reflect the 2% of bnp NATO norm
• Stay in the EU, integrate where possible
• Refugees welcome

My viewpoints mostly align with PvdA, D66, DENK and Groenlinks. I'm thinking of voting PvdA.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Excellen Browning

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Thane said:

I see. What do you think the best course for the Netherlands is? I dearly don't want to see the EU more fractured; the Brexit nonsense has led to so much instability in Europe and it plays right into the hands of some of the less benevolent competitors, to put it mildly. 

That depends on what you think the biggest problem is. For me its populism so I think its vital they are kept out of power and made obselete as soon as possible.

The economic crisis has passed so I think its time to revert the austerity and start easing a lot of burdens. Ensure that the people who vote populist because they are desperate are no longer that desperate. At the same time the more insane ideas like leaving the EU should be ressisted as fiercely as possible. To get fully past the crisis which strengthen the populists we need time, I think we now have a chance which gives us that time.

[Magical CC]

Video clip of Erdogan's young branch burning Netherlands flag:

 

 

They have gone too far.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Magical CC

[Moblin Major General]

5 minutes ago, Magical CC said:

They have gone too far.

How are you offended by them burning your flag? I mean, yes, I can see why YOU as a Dutchman would be offended, but I personally would not if they burned the Stars and Stripes. Burning flags is valid protest in my opinion, even if it manages to anger the victim flag's people.

[Excellen Browning]

1 hour ago, Magical CC said:

Video clip of Erdogan's young branch burning Netherlands flag:

They have gone too far.

OH MY GOD SOME TURKISH MANCHILDREN SEVERAL THOUSAND MILES AWAY TRIED TO PROVOKE US BY BURNING OUR NATIONAL FLAG! Surely I can't do anything but be offended now.

whatever nerds.

[Tryhard]

flags have about as much power as you give them

they look like morons favoring one piece of cloth over another, and it's childish yes but hardly worth gawking about

also lmao that looks like the french flag not the dutch

so yeah, chances of Geert Wilders?

Edited March 14, 2017 by Tryhard

[Moblin Major General]

3 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

also lmao that looks like the french flag not the dutch

Their holding it upside down, that's why. It wouldn't be so confusing if their flag went back to using orange. You know, the national color?

[Excellen Browning]

We'll use the flag we damn well want to use

Edited March 14, 2017 by Excellen Browning

[Etrurian emperor]

58 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

flags have about as much power as you give them

they look like morons favoring one piece of cloth over another, and it's childish yes but hardly worth gawking about

also lmao that looks like the french flag not the dutch

so yeah, chances of Geert Wilders?

Well....I heard its quite the opposite actually. According to some polls large groups of Wilders voters are moving towards the prime minister because they liked how he handled the situation. I even heard it affects Wilders to the points of him lowering to 16 seats in the polls, something I don't fully believe but Wilders has been losing grounds steadily the last few weeks.

Also I did wonder whether that's not actually a French flag held in a different manner. I've seen it happen before. 

[Magical CC]

7 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Their holding it upside down, that's why. It wouldn't be so confusing if their flag went back to using orange. You know, the national color?

Well, if that is the case then this picture would be more valid. What is the last time you see someone stabbing an orange with such....emotion?

I think the words are pretty easy to understand even if you dont know the language. Now, these guys burned Dutch (or French) flag, abused the fruits Netherlands dont grow, raid Dutch embassy and stick Turkey flag on its top then screamed "Allahu Akbar". Unless I am mistaken, attacking the embassy also means provoking war. Of course, this is all for the new voting that gonna give Erdogan total control of the country so we will have to see how things play out.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Magical CC

[Oricorio]

Turkey's reaction to this is pretty hilarious, as their government has pretty much no concept of free speech (as seen when they jail people for speaking the truth about the Armenian Genocide). The government is starting to get a bit unstable and totalitarian, so maybe they need to be put in their place.

[Excellen Browning]

So, I come bringing more clarification.

The Netherlands, Germany, and Turkey all have a law that forbids campaigning for national political issues in foreign countries. (in case of Turkey, it's rarely enforced) As far as I know, the Netherlands and Germany also have laws forbidding other countries from campaigning in their country.

To put things into further perspective, the majority of Dutch Turks or Turkish Dutch have dual nationality. They were born and live their entire lives in the Netherlands, and have a vote in Dutch elections, but at the same time they have a vote in Turkey. And over the past few years there have been a few incidents.

Two years ago there was the case of (all) Dutch Turks receiving a letter from the (ruling) Turkish AK party, urging them to vote for them. The Turkish government probably has their adresses and names, but there's no way the AKP should have access to them, let alone use the official government for campaigning purposes.

Then at the tail end of last year, there was the arrest of a Turkish spy working to assassinate Kurdish and opposition members in Germany, and the subsequent reveal that there was also a Turkish spy network in the Netherlands.

And finally, following the attempted coup in Turkey, there was a flurry of violence and threats between Turkish groups in Europe.

[Etrurian emperor]

It seems this might turn out to be a tale where the bad guy wins. Because this conflict was likely engineered to make people more likely to support Erdogan and if the recent results are to be believed Erdogan has now won the refurendum that makes him the official dictator of Turkey.

On the other hand the conflict may also have served to strengthen our own prime minister against our populist.