Fire Emblem Fates Tier List

[KadenTheKitsune]

Effie has better growth rates than Silas, first of all, and when Effie levels up, she levels up, but whenever Silas levels up, he doesn't really get that much from it.
Secondly, the only "copy unit" to Effie is Benny, but Effie has better stats by then.
Silas has Peri and Xander by then, in which case Xander might be the strongest out of these three.
Even though Effie has low speed, if you give her Brave Lance she will just destroy all the enemy units.

[joshcja]

Effie should never outdamage VoF Silias.

Both units have the same base damage at join and while Effie does have higher growth in str...Growth rates mean very little here as Silias will be 2-3 levels ahead of Effie until very late game unless you intentionaly feed the 4 move unit over the 7 move unit. Assuming no-reclass both units end with the brave lance but 4x does more than 2x when the endgame damage gap is 2-3 base.

Silias does not need wings to double. He does want rally in lategame LCQ but thats what rallymaster is for.

I'm not going to pretend 20/20 cav is a thing on any unit but talisman spam xander though. So if you want to believe Effie is stronger in that scenario go for it.

As for 40 def Elise. Buff stacking is insane, 1 point over average enables 40 def but 39 sounds lame. You can go even higher off Effie A+ support if you just want to be silly. She has the speed to double in General Boltaxe mode.

WL Xander in the 19-23 gap crossing is one of the most common LCQ strats. It's used in almost every run that does not outright ban reclassing.

Edited March 15, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

21 hours ago, joshcja said:

Effie should never outdamage VoF Silias.

Both units have the same base damage at join and while Effie does have higher growth in str...Growth rates mean very little here as Silias will be 2-3 levels ahead of Effie until very late game unless you intentionaly feed the 4 move unit over the 7 move unit. Assuming no-reclass both units end with the brave lance but 4x does more than 2x when the endgame damage gap is 2-3 base.

Silias does not need wings to double. He does want rally in lategame LCQ but thats what rallymaster is for.

I'm not going to pretend 20/20 cav is a thing on any unit but talisman spam xander though. So if you want to believe Effie is stronger in that scenario go for it.

As for 40 def Elise. Buff stacking is insane, 1 point over average enables 40 def but 39 sounds lame. You can go even higher off Effie A+ support if you just want to be silly. She has the speed to double in General Boltaxe mode.

WL Xander in the 19-23 gap crossing is one of the most common LCQ strats. It's used in almost every run that does not outright ban reclassing.

What does VoF mena, sorry?

Also, the bolded: BS. effie should get a kill every single time she fights an enemy as long as you know what you are doing (past chapter 7/8 anyways, which are by far her worst maps). I mean, unless she is literally the only person in your party that can take a hit, which is unlikely even with prepromotes banned.

I had thought you meant, like Natural defense. buff stacking is another thing altogether.

[joshcja]

Vow of Friendship = VoF.

Killing power is not a finite resource in CQ. Effie actually winds up mid tier in mid to lategame damage output in no-reclass. Strictly average.

Devoting 3 deployment slots to let Effie keep pace is feeding.

Silias does everything you ever use Effie for... at 7 move. He can gain a level before Effie even reaches her first round of combat ffs. Yeah he gets one hell of an exp lead unless you hard feed the thwomp.

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

Vow of Friendship = VoF.

Killing power is not a finite resource in CQ. Effie actually winds up mid tier in mid to lategame damage output in no-reclass. Strictly average.

Devoting 3 deployment slots to let Effie keep pace is feeding.

Silias does everything you ever use Effie for... at 7 move. He can gain a level before Effie even reaches her first round of combat ffs. Yeah he gets one hell of an exp lead unless you hard feed the thwomp.

 

VoF is just damage +3 and requires planning around Corrin being at 50% health or less.

The second line doesn't even make sense. Knights are, indeed, generally low on damage output because they don't double, so they don't keep up at all with units who can double. But Effie has more than enough raw damage to bypass that weakness. She can one shot most things with little help, if any, which makes factoring double attacks useless unless the enemies are too bulky for her (Stuff like zerks, onis and generals, which she admittedly isn't built to fight). How is 80% STR growth with a +3 damage personal skill that needs no setup and will be active in 99% of conquest midtier? 

Of course, with reclass, Effie is probably going to marry arthur really fast and can get access to Zerk, which not only gives her a bit more attack power, but gives her enough speed to keep up with all but the fastest enemies before pair-up with Zerk!Arthur. And with her sheer attack power, your only worry in that regard would be the ninjas and s.masters in Ryoma's map, assuming the player doesn't Corrin solo.

Third line is completely illogical outside of chapter 8's first two turns, which is a braindead easy matter to deal with.

Silas doesn't one shot things without investment on tonics/reclass/setting up his dumb personal skill/braves/rallies for spd/speedwings/forges...  Effie only needs the latter.

The point about EXP lead is simply ridiculous too, assuming you are using effie. If she isn't killing one thing per Player Phase at the very least, you are not using her right. If she is, the exp will come to her anyways.

 

[joshcja]

Effie does not have the skill for zerk. Silias buries Effie in concrete if reclassing is permited.

4 move is not 7 move. See Silias gaining a level before Effie ever reaches combat. Unless 2-3 units carry Effie around all the time this is where the level gap comes from.

Tonics are neutral every main combat unit spams that shit. Effie needs the exact same resource invest as Silias to do her job. She is just objectively worse at that job for the entire game.

You can play the entire game with Corin in heavy combat at or below half hp. It's not even difficult or dangerous.

Why would I pairup bot Arthur on Effie when Arthur starts dealing higher damage on Ch9?

Edited March 16, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

5 hours ago, joshcja said:

Effie does not have the skill for zerk. Silias buries Effie in concrete if reclassing is permited.

4 move is not 7 move. See Silias gaining a level before Effie ever reaches combat. Unless 2-3 units carry Effie around all the time this is where the level gap comes from.

Tonics are neutral every main combat unit spams that shit. Effie needs the exact same resource invest as Silias to do her job. She is just objectively worse at that job for the entire game.

You can play the entire game with Corin in heavy combat at or below half hp. It's not even difficult or dangerous.

Why would I pairup bot Arthur on Effie when Arthur starts dealing higher damage on Ch9?

Effie has sufficient skill as long as you respect the weapon triangle. Well, you're given the Dual Club, but even arthur with maxed skill has crap hit rates with that vs swordmasters and such...welp.

Effie doesn't need to be carried in any context outside of the first turn of chapter 8 and perhaps the first one of 21 if you are not cheesing that with Camilla or even just a flier Corrin.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but Tc has not stated anywhere that "efficiency' or turn count is relevant to this discussion. Given that Fates has no ranking system, such a thing is but self-imposed challenge, so if it isn't mentioned, it isn't assumed. Of course... TC has been a bit sloppy in that regard, given that reclass ban that is not in the OP... but the fact he holds Effie in high regard is a dead ringer for that kind of mindset. (If not, i'll just say "Fine, silas is better" because in that alternative context, he would indeed be placed higher in this alternative tier list as Effie is not great at lowering turn counts)

What would be valued in a list when turn count is not relevant: combat performance, how much a unit needs to be good in terms of resources (the more-> the worse they are, unless they have Siegfried), how safe their playstyle is for no deaths (which is the only thing people can and should assume about tier lists when unmentioned), how much they contribute to lowering the difficulty of the chapter when deployed. Value brought.

You don't need high move nor you don't need Effie to keep up when letting enemies come to you for effortless, low-cost clears is the superior strategy.

You certainly don't need her to use Tonics or keep reclassing to get her to full power either, unlike Silas. Nor you need to even care about Corrin's HP, as the only time he takes any heavy damage is when enemies are all easy to kill anyways (AKA turns you have draccorin tanking).

Arthur has a lower effective STR (13 vs Effie's 12+3) and lower growth (65 vs her 80%). Arthur CAN outdamage Effie if he doubles. but as the game goes on, this won't hold true unless you keep giving him SPD boosts and SPD boosts and SPd boosts. His expected SPD at 20/20 zerk is just 27. Once Effie reclass, she will outspeed Arthur. So she will be both faster ANd stronger than him in the long run.

Reclassing effie to Figther at 15/00 will have an endgame Effie average with 51 effective STR prior to tonics, weapon rank and pair-up, and 31 SPD. Zerk boost from arthur puts her at 58 effective STR and 34 speed.

Not that Chapter 9 is a concern for any unit. The first enemies are easy to bait and clean up. The entire central/right part of the map will be at 1 HP so damage is not a concern.

[joshcja]

6 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

stuff

Stat/Damage stacking is by far the most effective strategy in fates. Stop pretending this is anything but a neutral cost.

No really. Effie does not have the skill stat to zerk. Effie also cannot hit the axe rank to wiled the brave axe at a relevant point in casual play without an arms scroll. Effie's str lead is worthless in reclass runs because her highest damage stack is +9. Lets compare this to Arthur's +15 or higher (In better classes). Given that speed buffing caps out at +17 there is no situation in the entire game where Effie's stat spread, class set, or growths are preferable. She's slightly better than 2 units on Ch7. That's her niche. In no reclass Arthur does more damage because axes are one of the best weapons for flat damage and WTA (if you have the skill stat) and lances are literally worthless past D rank.

There is no imaginable situation where a 4 move unit is better than a 7 move unit because she gains 2-3 more str at 20/20. Ever. I know you worship the god of turtles but just. No.

Edited March 17, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

You waste too much money to accomplish somethign that is easy without even touching reclassing seals.

[joshcja]

There is no incentive to spend less than 100,000 over the course of a CQ run, but for a moment lets pretend moneys are a significant limiting factor in CQ.

Seals become the cheaper option past +1 iron or hand axes. One tonic on a unit for 20 chapters is on par with a +1 forge in terms of cost. Full tonics for 22 chapters is on par with +2.

A no reclass no tonic run is the most expensive route possible.

Edited March 17, 2017 by joshcja

[Eselred]

I don't get it.  Effie is an armor unit.  That automatically limits her usefulness.  I mean come on this is like Fire Emblem basics here.

[ruruo]

I used Effie on my hard run, and really liked having her bulk to lean on. Then I dropped her on the lunatic run, and have no regrets. Dropping her really does free up Silas, and the party doesn't need to follow her pace - her mov is really the biggest issue for me. Arguably the party becomes more flexible without her. I'd rate her B+ at best?

 

[guedesbrawl]

5 hours ago, joshcja said:

There is no incentive to spend less than 100,000 over the course of a CQ run, but for a moment lets pretend moneys are a significant limiting factor in CQ.

Seals become the cheaper option past +1 iron or hand axes. One tonic on a unit for 20 chapters is on par with a +1 forge in terms of cost. Full tonics for 22 chapters is on par with +2.

A no reclass no tonic run is the most expensive route possible.

Except that you get a fair bit of steel and iron weapons for enemy drops and characters being recruited, so the overall cost is still less than tonic, without the unnecessary hassle of having to keep buying and applying it to everyone.

Have you ever tried to turtle ever? On a no reclass/no tonic/no mess hall/no repeated class tree/no prepromotes (Servant 1 aside for these last two)/no pair-up bots/no kids/no dlc/no path bonus/no capture... you practically never need anything than the basic bronze/iron and 1-2 forges and weapons the game gives you gratuitously. You'd only ever want a couple beast weapons and a shining bow to make Niles have more great match-ups, and Nosferatu for CQ10.

Just adding base Xander and Camilla alone to this equation makes the game beat itself, especially with them getting slots from the clean-up duty crew (Arthur/Beruka/FEAkids). Captured units, namely Haitaka's godlyness, Rallyman and whatever Pass Falcon you get for endgame, just is a kick in the nuts.

3 hours ago, Eselred said:

I don't get it.  Effie is an armor unit.  That automatically limits her usefulness.  I mean come on this is like Fire Emblem basics here.

On games where time is a resource of any meaning, perhaps. But in fates, where the level design breaks in two when you simply bait enemies with a tank and swarm them in the next turn for a no effort/no cost clear? Yeah.

It's only really an issue for her first two maps, where you actually will be pressed to move a fair bit.

[joshcja]

23 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Except that you get a fair bit of steel and iron weapons for enemy drops and characters being recruited, so the overall cost is still less than tonic, without the unnecessary hassle of having to keep buying and applying it to everyone.

Damn the game gives you weapons? I never knew that!

Have you ever tried to turtle ever?

Yes. Turtling is objectively higher risk lower reward in this game.

 

Lets consider the steel lance, you get enough to upgrade to +2 at a relevant point with only one purchased in shop. This is 2k moneys, this gives you +2 damage. A seal costs 2k moneys, A seal gives more damage.

We've had the turtle argument before. Go re-read that instead of doing this broken record shit again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shoutouts the the sane reasonable posts above this. (Not sarcasm for once)

Edited March 17, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

Turtling is literally zero risk unless you lead with Arthur or something.

[Eselred]

7 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

On games where time is a resource of any meaning, perhaps. But in fates, where the level design breaks in two when you simply bait enemies with a tank and swarm them in the next turn for a no effort/no cost clear? Yeah.

It's only really an issue for her first two maps, where you actually will be pressed to move a fair bit.

There are great armors in other games too, such as Oswin and Gatrie. But they are still armors and that limits their effectiveness.  I've only ever found them useful to hold a choke point once in a while.  Otherwise they are just too slow and hold your army back.

[Interdimensional Observer]

I think it says something that Effie is constantly raised up and shot down when comparing units. Maybe it just has to do with Fates's being recent and popular, but the other hand, it might be a sign that IS finally made an Armor Knight not unabashedly outclassed (I know Oswin and Gatrie exist, but I don't think anyone would argue them as vital as some do Effie).

Takumi is a similar deal with the Archers, one that even some non-super casuals admit to being rather usable and solid. Yet of course, others, recognizing the classic flaws of Archers as still largely existing, are not so persuaded that Takumi is worthy of being in the highest echelons.

[joshcja]

Niles is the archer unit that even mega-elitists rank on par with freaking Camilia.

Takumi hype is something I will never understand. He would be considerably better if he wasn't competing with a stupidly good pre-promoted Kinshi in Birthroute but even then he's low-mid at best.

[De Geso]

6 hours ago, joshcja said:

Niles is the archer unit that even mega-elitists rank on par with freaking Camilia.

Takumi hype is something I will never understand. He would be considerably better if he wasn't competing with a stupidly good pre-promoted Kinshi in Birthroute but even then he's low-mid at best.

I agree on this, Takumi is ridiculously overrated. People put him on par with units like Ryoma or Corrin which is totally absurd. His damage is high and having flier-movement is good but he's still an archer not named Niles

[TheLongCon]

Will update later with explanations

Edited April 3, 2017 by TheLongCon

[eclipse]

No logic, terrible formatting, 0/10.

In other words, not cool.  Read the first post.

Edited April 3, 2017 by eclipse

[Zkirsche]

Hi

I am interested in talking/discussing fates but can see that opening discussion is limited right now. If I may be so bold to presume and theorise for why this is (aside from just a tiredness for tiers) my main thought is that right now it's quite unorganised. How exactly is this first tier list being ranked: by popular view through voting or from input given to Kaden for him to formulate a tier list? If it's the latter then I suggest you just go ahead and make a list of your liking so we can go about improving it bit by bit rather than going for these vague discussions (people were discussing Effie vs Silas but we have no indication of how far apart each is tiered which skews the perspective). If it's the former then doing a "rate the unit" thing like they are currently doing for Radiant Dawn would be a better way of maintaining initial interest, before the debates properly begin.

Also I would probably set some ground rules going to get a basis: these rules can often be changed later on if the majority agrees with it. The biggest thing for me is: how does Effie's performance in Revelation and performance in Conquest add up? A unit may be better in one game but worse in the other due to join time and map mechanics and trying to factor that in is a bit of a pain. Also, what difficulty are we playing on? Hard or Lunatic? For reclassing both arguments hold a lot of weight to me: I refused to debate awakening because it was a pain trying to work out which class was best for each unit imo, but it doesn't really make sense to just ignore these items that the game gives you for free. I propose a sort of compromise: how about allowing heart seals but denying partner/friendship seals? This way we don't just lock units into classes but we also don't allow for near infinite possibilities. This also avoids painful arguments in the short term like: Silas is better because he can help more people promote into cavaliers.

My proposed ruleset would be:

Spoiler

1. Conquest Hard mode
2. No partner*/friendship seals
3. No DLC/Spotpass/Einherjar/Lottery Shop/Invasions etc
4. No Kids.
5. Standard "efficiency" clause: Characters that help us complete maps the fastest the safest are better, with speed being the priority. Here this means that so long as the chance of failure is acceptable (<5-10%), characters that can pull of the fastest clears are the best.

By no means just assume these rules straight up and I don't mean to take over from the groundwork Kaden was built but hopefully what I've said can prompt some discussion.

Edit: *meant no partner seals

Edited May 1, 2017 by kirsche

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'd prefer to see Heart/Friendship Seals allowed, they're a valid resource. However, they're rather limited early on, so anyone taking one then is a notable negative since it prevents anyone else from using it. Still, if a unit can be shown to have an excellent performance with one (e.g. Jakob), that strikes me as relevant.

I'm all for speed but there is definitely such a thing as over-rewarding it. I'm not sure I'd agree with saying speed takes priority over safety (speed is safety in many cases, but I'll take a strategy that wins 100% of the time in 1 more turn over one that wins 90% of the time), and I'm not really interested in shaving off turns with Rescue shenanigans as a way of inflating a unit's worth.

[Zkirsche]

They're not as limited as you might think considering you can buy them quickly. The hardest part is probably getting the S support which can take from as few as 5 to over 10 chapters.

The worst part of it all is that mid discussion I'll have to constantly reevaluate numbers as the growth rates and class bases change. It just seems like such a painful endeavor as you'd have to compare Bowknight!Selena with Sky Knight!Selena and Wyvern Knight!Selena and their performances on each chapter so as to effectively rank her performance their, as one example. That's like 1.5* the work for probably little payoff.

[joshcja]

You're not comparing Bowknight!Selena and WL!Selena on every chapter with growths/bases/etc.Consider units within their specific niche without assuming a void in terms of resources.

You're Comparing BK/Kinshi Selena with and without draco line skills and looking at where it's actually productive to dip for these skills to see if this is even a positive investment on Selena. In this case the question is where does lunge matter, what breakpoints does Str+2 hit, and can a late dip through MK hit breakpoints in 25-26 while keeping kinshi on Ch20-24. More importantly do these investments actually improve her performance as a unit enough to justify this expenditure over a comparable unit, or does this use offer incomparable benefits (also known as a new niche)?

Edited April 30, 2017 by joshcja