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Racial Diversity in FE


SullyMcGully
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Extrasolar, chill. I just wasted a good half an hour going through this entire thread again, and you come off as being a bit too eager to jump on people's throats.

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Just now, Sunwoo said:

Extrasolar, chill. I just wasted a good half an hour going through this entire thread again, and you come off as being a bit too eager to jump on people's throats.

Well when someone is deliberately ignoring all the points that you're making, even when you give evidence and refutations to all of them... I'm not exactly sure what you want me to do.

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If people think you're calling them a racist, or implying that they're a racist, do you really think that's going to make them want to listen to you? Would you want to listen to someone who's calling you thickheaded, or implying that you are? If they feel like you're personally attacking them, step back and take a deep breath and try to get your points across without making it sound like you're also insulting them. And if they don't listen to you, then it's a lost cause so you drop it and just ignore them.

Edited by Sunwoo
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14 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I never called you racist. I was calling you out on how strange and/or hypocritical it was that you were upset about skin colors being changed, with the reasons you gave making no sense (I gave you plenty of evidence that non-white people in Europe is historically accurate, and brought up the fact that changing skin colors in FE does nothing to impact the story in any way). You proceeded to insult me and ignore my points. That's how we got to this point. If anything, you're making yourself look that way just by your volatile reactions.
 

...But you were literally just complaining about the skin colors being changed because it was "disrespectful to the creators" "disrespectful to the source material" "ruined the characters" and "ruined the story." I'm not imagining that. I read that. You were literally just making a big deal about that, but now you're suddenly changing your tune because I called you out on how that doesn't make any sense.

And you were bringing up "I need evidence for a non-white character in a European setting to exist," and yet, needed no explanation for a white character. I asked you about this, and you never addressed it. I mean, it's not that big of a leap in logic to question that bit. And I gave you evidence that non-white people have and do exist in European settings forever. It was ignored.

It's not hard to see how I arrive at these conclusions.
 

And because I say that I think the source material is important and should be important i am somehow racist? What? If it is in regard to boey/grey I already said that their own creators changed them so much that it isn't a big deal. 

Yeah, I don't need evidence why a white person is in a country based on a European country. It's like wondering why a black person is in an African country. Which I would also need no explanation for. You provided evidence in the form of a blog. While I won't fully discredit it, I am going to require some more concrete evidence than a blog. 

While i I don't doubt there were other races in medieval time periods, it wasn't nearly as common as the countries own race. It would still require a bit of explanation. Whether that be merchant family, nearby kingdom, traders, etc. Doesn't require a ton, just a bit for context.

Edited by Tolvir
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Just now, Sunwoo said:

If people think you're calling them a racist, or implying that they're a racist, do you really think that's going to make them want to listen to you? Would you want to listen to someone who's calling you thickheaded, or implying that you are? If they feel like you're personally attacking them, step back and take a deep breath and try to get your points across without making it sound like you're also insulting them.

But I never did call anyone a racist. I criticized points that to me seem flimsy and hypocritical, only to never receive a response back and get called "thickheaded." My posts were not insulting. I explained everything to the best of my ability in a non-hostile tone (or what seemed to me like one). Of course, I could be wrong on that point. Can you quote me where I seemed hostile or insulting, outside of me responding to when I was insulted?

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9 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

And because I say that I think the source material is important and should be important i am somehow racist? What? If it is in regard to boey/grey I already said that their own creators changed them so much that it isn't a big deal. 

No, it's not that you think source material is important. But I find it strange that you think changing skin tone in a story which doesn't rely on the characters being a certain race as "insulting the creator," "ruining the story," and "disrespecting the source material". You said you didn't care about minor details, when if the skin color/race doesn't affect the story, is a minor detail. Your focus on skin color even when it's minor is strange to me, because you said you don't care about tiny details... I'm confused.

That's why I took it to mean you see skin color as disproportionately important, even when it's not to the story...

9 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

While i I don't doubt there were other races in medieval time periods, it wasn't nearly as common as the countries own race. It would still require a bit of explanation. Whether that be merchant family, nearby kingdom, traders, etc. Doesn't require a ton, just a bit for context.

You'd be surprised. It wasn't "1 or 2 non-white people." It was a pretty significant amount of the population - especially in Spain. They had families there for generations. They were Spanish, even if they originated centuries ago from somewhere else. Why can't "I just live here" be an appropriate explanation? I mean, if you're American, do you feel the need to or have to explain yourself? "Oh, I live here in America, but my ancestors were actually 11th century French merchants who emigrated." Like...no, you're just American. You've been here long enough to just exist here.

9 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Yeah, I don't need evidence why a white person is in a country based on a European country. It's like wondering why a black person is in an African country. You provided evidence in the form of a blog. While I won't fully discredit it, I am going to require some more concrete evidence than a blog. 

But it's a blog run by a certified European art historian, showing real works of arts with dates and place stamps... I mean, there's not much more concrete evidence that you can get. Did you look through it?

Edited by Extrasolar
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I still don't see the need to explain the existence of a non-white person in a white setting just because it was uncommon; what if that person was simply born and raised there? It did happen. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:But I never did call anyone a racist. I criticized points that to me seem flimsy and hypocritical, only to never receive a response back and get called "thickheaded." My posts were not insulting. I explained everything to the best of my ability in a non-hostile tone (or what seemed to me like one). Of course, I could be wrong on that point. Can you quote me where I seemed hostile or insulting, outside of me responding to when I was insulted?

"It's not hard to see how I arrived to these conclusions."

"When it changes the story in no other way than seeing a brown person on screen and you are still upset...hmm..."

Twice what you said could be interpreted as calling someone racist. Thus my comments. 

 

 

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I never said that you called anyone a racist, but if people thought you were calling them that then they were less likely to listen. Words are not easy and sometimes you get across a tone that you may not intend or notice, but other people do and take it in a way you didn't mean. It's also easy to want to insult someone back when they are insulting you, but that's an impulse we're just going to have to learn to keep a lid on.

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70223-racial-diversity-in-fe/&do=findComment&comment=4751003

I get what you're trying to say, but there's definitely a less "accusatory" and "putting words in your mouth" way to say this.

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70223-racial-diversity-in-fe/&do=findComment&comment=4751159

Dismissing those "butthurt" people as "whiny bigots" and that "we're better off without them" is the type of attitude that got Trump elected. I'm not saying I agree with that kind of sentiment either. But not all of those people are whiny bigots either and with this kind of blanket statement, you will offend people who aren't whiny bigots who may not necessarily like seeing established characters changed.

Also, in the last reply in that post: automatically assuming that the guy you quoted is implying it's a bad thing.

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70223-racial-diversity-in-fe/&do=findComment&comment=4752042

I may not like Tolvir very much, but his response in the post you're quoting here was relatively civil. But I think you're coming off as a bit too hostile, with comments like "why aren't you asking why Alm and Celica are here" or "you can have your white Spiderman".

Now I'm going to stop derailing this massively derailed topic. If you want to continue this, then send me a message in private because I'm done here.

Edited by Sunwoo
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16 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

"It's not hard to see how I arrived to these conclusions."

"When it changes the story in no other way than seeing a brown person on screen and you are still upset...hmm..."

Twice what you said could be interpreted as calling someone racist. Thus my comments. 

 

 

I apologize, that was passive-aggressive. I didn't mean to imply that you were racist (an uncalled for accusation on my part). I was just confused as to your arguments, since they don't make much sense to me. Also I felt like you were deliberately ignoring the points I brought up, which frustrated and confused me. I shouldn't have thought along those lines, but I wasn't exactly sure why you were ignoring them and focusing on skin color so much.

15 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Dismissing those "butthurt" people as "whiny bigots" and that "we're better off without them" is the type of attitude that got Trump elected. I'm not saying I agree with that kind of sentiment either. But not all of those people are whiny bigots either and with this kind of blanket statement, you will offend people who aren't whiny bigots who may not necessarily like seeing established characters changed.

True. I apologize, I shouldn't have generalized like that. I think there was a way better and more fair way to get across my point.

15 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I may not like Tolvir very much, but his response in the post you're quoting here was relatively civil. But I think you're coming off as a bit too hostile, with comments like "why aren't you asking why Alm and Celica are here" or "you can have your white Spiderman".

For the first point, I just didn't understand why Kamui, Boey and Gray needed an explanation for being in Valentia whereas Alm and Celica didn't. It seems to be a double standard, which if we're just going off skin color (what we've been talking about this whole time) seems arbitrary and unfair.

But yeah, that second part. I apologize for that. That did come off as pretty passive-aggressive as well...

Edited by Extrasolar
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23 minutes ago, Res said:

I still don't see the need to explain the existence of a non-white person in a white setting just because it was uncommon; what if that person was simply born and raised there? It did happen. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

No, it's not that you think source material is important. But I find it strange that you think changing skin tone in a story which doesn't rely on the characters being a certain race as "insulting the creator," "ruining the story," and "disrespecting the source material". You said you didn't care about minor details, when if the skin color/race doesn't affect the story, is a minor detail. Your focus on skin color even when it's minor is strange to me, because you said you don't care about tiny details... I'm confused.

That's why I took it to mean you see skin color as disproportionately important, even when it's not to the story...

You'd be surprised. It wasn't "1 or 2 non-white people." It was a pretty significant amount of the population - especially in Spain. They had families there for generations. They were Spanish, even if they originated centuries ago from somewhere else. Why can't "I just live here" be an appropriate explanation? I mean, if you're American, do you feel the need to or have to explain yourself? "Oh, I live here in America, but my ancestors were actually 11th century French merchants who emigrated." Like...no, you're just American. You've been here long enough to just exist here.

But it's a blog run by a certified European art historian, showing real works of arts with dates and place stamps... I mean, there's not much more concrete evidence that you can get. Did you look through it?

Ok. I don't think either of you two are seeing this here. In explaining why it doesn't need to be explained, you did just what you said doesn't need to be done. Explained why they are there. Extra, you brought up that the moors conquered Spain (and enslaved the people of Spain btw.) And that is why through many generations, there were other races present. Res, in giving your example that maybe they were born and raised there, you did the same. In giving those example, you did exactly as I wanted. Explained why they are there. Is there a problem in liking a bit of a story? A bit of context as to why things are the way they are?

 

That is all I want. An explanation. World Building. Not throwing things around for the sake of doing so, claiming it needs no explanation, and continuing on our way. I would rather we don't revert back to Fates level of world building. When I say that the main "race" if you will of the certain country doesn't need an explanation, I should probably word it better. What I mean is that it requires less explanation. Showing me a country similar to that of say, Norse origin, lets me come to the conclusion that these people are likely based on Vikings. Therefore, I have all the explanation needed. Two chapters in, and a character of another race shows up, I would find that interesting. I would want to know their back story, why are they there? Is there a nearby kingdom of another type? Is he a traveling merchant, or his family? Has his family been here for generations? Why is that?

 

Is it somehow a bad thing wanting these kind of details? In the end its just world building, adding details to what has happened in this world. In the end I would want information on why the country is there anyways.

 

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3 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Is it somehow a bad thing wanting these kind of details? In the end its just world building, adding details to what has happened in this world.

Okay let me just say I think I've been misunderstanding the problem here the whole time. I think I automatically assumed the worst when you said you wanted an explanation for those characters, probably because of my own experiences.

See, I've had problems with people assuming I and lots of people like me aren't "from here [America]" because we're not white, so I see that as them saying "well, you're not white, so you obviously don't really belong here/you obviously aren't really an American." I thought that was what you were saying about these characters, in so many words. But I think I was wrong about that.

Sorry. I get a little sensitive when such a thing is brought up, as well as how little people know that non-white people in Europe go way, way back.

I understand what you're saying now. You want lore about other continents and other people, and how they came to a continent with a native population of another race/skin color. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you aren't implying that Kamui, Boey and Gray aren't "really" Valentian because they're not white, which isn't what you seem to be implying.

Yeah, I think taking a chill pill about certain things is probably what needs to happen for me...

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3 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Okay let me just say I think I've been misunderstanding the problem here the whole time. I think I automatically assumed the worst when you said you wanted an explanation for those characters, probably because of my own experiences.

See, I've had problems with people assuming I and lots of people like me aren't "from here [America]" because we're not white, so I see that as them saying "well, you're not white, so you obviously don't really belong here/you obviously aren't really an American." I thought that was what you were saying about these characters, in so many words. But I think I was wrong about that.

Sorry. I get a little sensitive when such a thing is brought up, as well as how little people know that non-white people in Europe go way, way back.

I understand what you're saying now. You want lore about other continents and other people, and how they came to a continent with a native population of another race/skin color. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you aren't implying that Kamui, Boey and Gray aren't "really" Valentian because they're not white, which isn't what you seem to be implying.

Yeah, I think taking a chill pill about certain things is probably what needs to happen for me...

Not at all, I just want to know why they are there. Kamui is already explained, as he is already said to be from another country, and as far as I know is a mercenary. Boey and Gray are different now, so a little explanation would be nice. Especially if it adds character development and world building.

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I think you either question/world-build everyone's origins or noone's. 

To take the example of the U.S.: I am a white immigrant in the U.S. Know how many times I'm asked where I'm from? Never, unless someone is really interested in my accent, and even then no one ever implies that I don't really belong in the U.S. (which people do with U.S.-born Mexicans, etc., all the time.

Also, if I give my current city (say, if I think someone is asking where I live) no one ever says 'no, where are you REALLY from', like they do with non-white Americans, even though my accent clearly marks me as a non-American! 

It often happens that a white, Anglo-last name is assumed to be American, but actual Native American names are often questioned, or thought not to be real. That's how prevalent the assumption that the default American is white is - that not even the people indigenous to the country are considered to be a part of it.

So yes, I wouldn't be especially curious about an uncommon face. And it would be cool to know more about the characters' origins, but I would expect more information to be given about all characters.

 

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38 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Not at all, I just want to know why they are there. Kamui is already explained, as he is already said to be from another country, and as far as I know is a mercenary. Boey and Gray are different now, so a little explanation would be nice. Especially if it adds character development and world building.

I don't necessarily think we need a 'why they are there' when Alm and Celica don't get the same treatment. We assume that Alm and Celica are Valentian natives, so why not assume the same with Boey and Gray? Their ancestors could have settled on the island at the same time that Alm and Celica's did. Even if they settled there later and came from a different place, I don't necessarily think flagging them as "needing a reason to be here" is a good thing... Because that leads to a lot of thinking like I've experienced.

I'm not necessarily opposed to them fleshing out the timeline like: "X centuries ago, our ancestors came from y place and settled this land" is fine, especially if it includes Boey and Gray in there. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to "And y centuries ago, this group of people came from continent z and settled here alongside us." But yeah, make it equal opportunity development.

They could simply be Valentian. Rather, their ancestors could have originated on another continent, but if we don't wanna bring it up, we shouldn't bring it up for anyone.
 

35 minutes ago, Res said:

I think you either question/world-build everyone's origins or noone's. 

This is a fair point. I definitely don't want Boey and Gray marked as "other" when Alm and Celica are simply assumed to be Valentian, just on virtue of their skin color. (With Kamui it's already a moot point, since we have confirmation that he's non-Valentian. Getting a bit of development from his homeland would definitely be cool.)
 

Edited by Extrasolar
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5 hours ago, Tolvir said:

To bring things into a different medium, whether that be books, movies, television ,etc. Doesnt mean there needs to be huge changes. Minor ones sure, as I said before I am against changing everything outside minor details. I am all for updating something for the modern times, but this doesnt mean we should just start changing things all we want.

 

Here is my issue with changing these larger details, since I dont think I specified it well enough with just respecting the source material. My problem with it is where does it end? Where does the updating to a modern audience end, and just changing for the sake of changing it start? If we are completely ok with race and ethnicity changed, then why are we against their back story changing? Why are we against their name changing? The details about their character? At what point do we stop someone from adapting the source material, and completely changing the source material into a completely different story?

 

My issue isn't with diversity, in fact I am all for adding diversity. My issue is with changing already established characters and stories for any reason. At what point does it change from adapting and updating to just changing without respect for the source material. That is my issue with the modern Star Trek movies. No race was changed, no details about any characters, but the problem with it is that the overall idea of Star Trek was changed. It changed from a story about space exploration from a guy who was looking to the future that inspired generations of children, into a generic action sci fi movie with crazy aliens and fun CGI action sequences. It lost the essence of what Star Trek is supposed to be because they started changing the source material. They lost respect for what it was originally meant to be, and therefore created something completely different and attached to the original in name only. That is my problem with allowing these changes.

 

So just skimming the rest of the thread so forgive me if this particular issue has already been discussed and I've missed it.

The line is drawn when the spirit of what the original work wanted to envoke is lost. Booey's race is not an important factor to his original character. It's meaningless. While a character like Allan Quatermain is as his story ties pretty heavily with the concept of British imperialism. Race, gender, religion, these things can be an important aspect of a character and likely shouldn't be changed without good reason (and getting a more reocgnised and talented actor to play them actually is a good reason in my book) but for the vast number of fictional characters, especially those in a fantasy setting it's completely irrelvant. It's a purely cosmetic thing.

Take Gankustou, The Count of Monte Cristo. That's an anime based on a ninteenth centure French novel and they inexplicably decide to st it in the future where people dual with mechs, every non French location is set in space and the count is possessed by an ancient cave demon. It sounds ridiculous but it's probably the best damn adaptation of the Count of Monte Cristo out there because it still manages to respect the original book and knows exactly what themes and emotions it was trying to convey (and actually running for 26 epiosdes instead of a 120 minute move helped massively too).

Another example, Genesis of the Daleks, one of the most wildly praised of the classic Doctor Who stories. It changed the baskstory of the Daleks from the survivors of a neculear war that were hostile but content to go about their own business and even ngeotiate, to an intentionally evil creature created by a mad science for the express purpose of conquering all life (and a heavy dose of Nazi allegory to booth). It's a massive change from the original but it stays in tune and even matches better with the spirit of the Daleks themselves and what they've always represented.

5 hours ago, Tryhard said:

On the bright side, they are keeping Juda's skin blue.

That's real diversity right there.

10/10 best comment on the thread.

Edited by Jotari
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11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So just skimming the rest of the thread so forgive me if this particular issue has already been discussed and I've missed it.

The line is drawn when the spirit of what the original work wanted to envoke is lost. Booey's race is not an important factor to his original character. It's meaningless. While a character like Allan Quatermain is as his story ties pretty heavily with the concept of British imperialism. Race, gender, religion, these things can be an important aspect of a character and likely shouldn't be changed without good reason (and getting a more reocgnised and talented actor to play them actually is a good reason in my book) but for the vast number of fictional characters, especially those in a fantasy setting it's completely irrelvant. It's a purely cosmetic thing.

Take Gankustou, The Count of Monte Cristo. That's an anime based on a ninteenth centure French novel and they inexplicably decide to st it in the future where people dual with mechs, every non French location is set in space and the count is possessed by an ancient cave demon. It sounds ridiculous but it's probably the best damn adaptation of the Count of Monte Cristo out there because it still manages to respect the original book and knows exactly what themes and emotions it was trying to convey (and actually running for 26 epiosdes instead of a 120 minute move helped massively too).

Another example, Genesis of the Daleks, one of the most wildly praised of the classic Doctor Who stories. It changed the baskstory of the Daleks from the survivors of a neculear war that were hostile but content to go about their own business and even ngeotiate, to an intentionally evil creature created by a mad science for the express purpose of conquering all life (and a heavy dose of Nazi allegory to booth). It's a massive change from the original but it stays in tune and even matches better with the spirit of the Daleks themselves and what they've always represented.

10/10 best comment on the thread.

Yes, when the spirit of what the original work was going for is lost, I have a huge issue. I don't mind Boey as much as his depictions have changed so much through time. He never really had a set anything from the original creator, so what he is, is entirely up to interpretation.

In the end I would rather things not be changed too much, but as long as it is done for a reason I don't have an issue. I have no issue with Chiwetel Ejiofor being cast as Mordo in Dr Strange, even though the character being Asian originally. Chiwetel did an amazing job bringing the character from the comic books to on screen, and it was clear it was done because of that, and not for a quick 5 minutes of media attention. At the same time I have an issue with Michael B Jordan being cast as Johnny Storm as he isn't the right actor to bring him to life on screen, and didn't fit with the original version of Johnny Storm at all.

 

I didn't specify this too well in my posts, but while I would rather things be kept close to the source material, but if something might turn out better by changing certain aspects (which is why I was fine with Chiwetel as Mordo). At the same time, if it is being changed for no real reason other than something petty, like a quick media attention grab, then I have an issue as it is a deviation from source material with no real reason to change it at all.

 

 

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It's funny when you said "It doesn't need explanation" then you explain why it doesn't need explanation because of this and that.

You're actually trying to explain a situation so it does not need explanation.

Edited by hanhnn
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At the risk of getting tarred and feathered, I'm going to say that racial diversity should only be added when it better develops the world rather than "There are not enough Pacific islanders in my European fantasy setting". I like other ethnic groups being featured when they come from a part of the world where that ethnicity is prevalent. To give an example, Sacaens are from Sacae. Lon'qu and Say'ri are from Cho'sin. What they should not do is insert ethic minorities without an explanation. I've seen people bring up the proximity of Africa and Asia to Europe to explain why it's okay for non-whites to show up in a European setting. Fair enough, if this is the real world where Africa and Asia exist but what about the fantasy setting? Danved comes from...where? Are Basillo and Flavia the only two dark skinned people on the continent?

"But NekoKnight, it's possible that multiple ethnic groups have lived in the same country for a long time!" Right you are, contrarian voice in my head, but those groups are worth explaining. To give an example, Rinka is ethnically different from the other Hoshidans but the game tells you she's from a different part of the country. It wasn't just "She's got a rocking tan and painted-on abs that no one else does for no reason"

2 hours ago, Res said:

I think you either question/world-build everyone's origins or noone's. 

Sort of. If the nation has a majority of one ethnic group, you don't need to go out of your way to express they are native to that country.

 

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I find the "Diversity wouldn't make sense because it's based on Europe and everyone's white" argument hilarious. True, in a historical fiction set in, say, medieval Sweden, it wouldn't make too much sense for there to be more than one minority character (unless the focus of the story was about foreigners or something). But Fire Emblem is not set in the real world. Do you hear these same people saying, "Well, they should remove magic from the games, as it does not exist in the real world"? No. No, you do not. Especially since nobility fights in the front lines of a war and talks to peasants, it's safe to assume that this is vastly different culturally.

We should get more diversity honestly, since we hadn't too many in the past. I don't really consider Hoshidans to be "East Asian" per se - few of them have the dark hair, and their skin is as fair as or often lighter than the Nohrians. True, their are the names, but because I have a Nordic name does not mean I am Scandinavian. I would like a more noticeably East Asian character, if you will.

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I feel like pidgeonholing "East Asian-ness" to hair color in an anime is incredibly unfair, considering pink and blue are natural colors in that type of style, and facial features depend drastically on the abilities of the artist (I like Kozaki, but he does suffer from sameface to a degree) . I would think Japanese people making characters based on their own culture is a better indication of "East Asian-ness" than specifically having dark hair, as if every single other (very unnatural) hair color is now coded white. I mean, take Ryoma, for example. He even has the dark hair you're looking for, and I've done a lot of reading into his character--read a Chinese translation of Hakagure, even, and while reading it I was comparing what Yamamoto wrote about samurai and bushido, and how Ryoma was characterized, and it applies to even some of the more subtle parts of Ryo's character that most don't even pick up. If that's not a "East Asian" character I don't know what constitutes one. I hope it's not stereotypes.

I feel a part of Hoshido's "lack" of "East Asian" codifiers have more to do with them not being portrayed as a racial minority, because hair colors aside they have many cultural signifiers of. Certainly, there could be more portrayals of non-Japanese East Asians in FE (given that FE is Japanese after all), but we should not discount Hoshidans because the mainstream anime trends is colorful hair everywhere. In that context, it would be quite jarring---and othering, if every Hoshidan ever were to have dark brown hair all the time. Hell, I knew this Chinese kid who was 9 who had natural red hair. It happens.

I do think there should be more skintone variation, even within a single ethnic group, though. I'm pretty light-skinned as far as Chinese people go--only slightly darker than my (equally nerdy and hates outside) white boyfriend. Some of my Chinese friends are several shades darker, because they have ancestry from southern parts of China. Or they just like going outside more.

Edited by Thor Odinson
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So, like, is everyone just forgetting that there can be more than one "native" race/ethnic group to a continent...?

Eurasia is all one continent, and it has tons of different races/ethnic groups. Africa is one continent and it also has plenty. I haven't really looked into it, but I'm sure the Americas had a good amount of ethnic groups, too, even before they started being colonized by various European nations. I get that Fire Emblem continent sizes are generally implicitly not quite that large, but I still don't think it'd be a far cry to say that there's just more than one race native to the continent.

In regards to how they got there, I feel it also warrants bringing up that humans, in general, did not originate on a bunch of different continents at once. We arose in Africa, and over many, many years, spread out to other regions and continents. This happened many millennia ago, and if we're going by that, then technically, humans, as a species in general, are not native to any continent but Africa. My point here is that there's also sort of a cutoff point where the time and manner at which X ethnic/racial group arrived in Y geographical location kinda stops being important or relevant for most intents and purposes.

18 minutes ago, Bandido Banderas said:

I find the "Diversity wouldn't make sense because it's based on Europe and everyone's white" argument hilarious. True, in a historical fiction set in, say, medieval Sweden, it wouldn't make too much sense for there to be more than one minority character (unless the focus of the story was about foreigners or something). But Fire Emblem is not set in the real world. Do you hear these same people saying, "Well, they should remove magic from the games, as it does not exist in the real world"? No. No, you do not. Especially since nobility fights in the front lines of a war and talks to peasants, it's safe to assume that this is vastly different culturally.

We should get more diversity honestly, since we hadn't too many in the past. I don't really consider Hoshidans to be "East Asian" per se - few of them have the dark hair, and their skin is as fair as or often lighter than the Nohrians. True, their are the names, but because I have a Nordic name does not mean I am Scandinavian. I would like a more noticeably East Asian character, if you will.

...And also this. Fire Emblem is literally made up, including the worlds it takes place in. Sure, continents and countries may take inspiration from various real-life nations and cultures, but that hardly means they are or are obligated to be perfect 1/1 equivalents.

As for Hoshidans being East Asian, it's worth noting that they wear very East Asian style clothes, wield weapons to match—by default, at least—and come from a nation with a very East Asian culture and very East Asian architecture. I don't think them having wacky anime hair colors is really a point against that, considering wacky and improbable hair colors have been all over the Fire Emblem series—and many, many more works, many of which star characters who are explicitly Japanese—since the very beginning. If anything, the problem is that Yusuke Kozaki isn't so great at diversifying the facial features of his characters. At least, not along the axis of race/ethnicity.

Edited by Topaz Light
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20 minutes ago, Topaz Light said:

So, like, is everyone just forgetting that there can be more than one "native" race/ethnic group to a continent...?

Eurasia is all one continent, and it has tons of different races/ethnic groups. Africa is one continent and it also has plenty. I haven't really looked into it, but I'm sure the Americas had a good amount of ethnic groups, too, even before they started being colonized by various European nations. I get that Fire Emblem continent sizes are generally implicitly not quite that large, but I still don't think it'd be a far cry to say that there's just more than one race native to the continent.

If you purely mean ethnicity, then yeah. The plains Americans, the central Americans, the south Americans, and the extreme north Americans all had very distinct cultures, and even distinct physical features, purely because of the lands they adapted in. I'm honestly probably generalizing the "big groups" too much, with there probably being more that I'm not considering. And even within those big general groupings, there were distinct cultures that arose.

But ethnicity and race aren't really the same thing, even if the words tend to get tossed around in the same conversations. Ethnicity has a lot more going on than just where you come from/who your ancestors were. And racially, they were pretty much 100% all considered descendants of the east-Asian Mongoloids, and as far as I know, there's never been any sort of breakdown beyond their race based on where they came from prior to moving to the Americas. The Americas were actually probably the most racially homogeneous continents on the planet before Europeans showed up. In the grandest sense, they all originated from northern/east Asia, and very, very, VERY few people ever made it to the Americas aside from the people who straight up walked there tens of thousands of years ago. And the few people who did touch ground(Like the Vikings in the early 1000s), typically did not stick around long or move to the Americas in large numbers. The Americas were very isolated for thousands and thousands of years.

Edited by Slumber
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Dear lord, what is this?  I came here and started to find interesting discussion in the first page, and was inclined to offer my opinion, how ever small it may be.  Then page 2 came along, and oh boy, I tried to skim, but...  this is just a little much for just some simple skin tone changes, right?  I mean, it doesn't really matter.  While we are here arguing about the representation of fictional characters, real people in the real world are still being mistreated for the most petty reasons.

To be honest, I'm glad that Mr. TryHard remembered that Garret exists.  People usually forget about him.  What were we "talking" about again?  Oh, right.  Racial/cultural diversity in a fictional game series... really?  In my opinion, it doesn't matter.  Race shouldn't matter in the first place in real life, but society already makes my opinions look like crap.  I just think we should appreciate that these characters are getting a redesign at all, and call it a day.  (Boey is the best mage because he knows fire magic)

Edited by Lord Tullus
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