Dark Dragons...What are they?

[Jotari]

Medeus is a pretty interesting character. He manages to simultaneously be completely generic but also really interesting due to minimalist story telling that was around when he was first created. He has all this backstory and lore yet he does sod all throughout the games with Gharnef taking the bulk of the villainy. One of the stranger things about this mix match is his race. Despite calling their original game Dark Dragon (and the remake Shadow Dragon), they instead created Earth Dragons to combat the Divine Dragons. Rather than a more obvious Dark Dragons...but then in the sequel they said nuts to that idea and brought back Medeus as a Dark Dragon? Was this particular transformation ever explained? Because it's pretty a massive in terms of visuals. Earth Dragons didn't even have wings yet the Dark Dragon model has the largest of any Manaketes.  I'm 90% sure they just brought him back in a new class to make the final boss more intimidating than the first game but it still does beg the question, what and why did Medeus change so much?

And what of Loptyr? He's said to be an Earth Dragon but he's definitely more dark in nature and even has the same sort of lizard ears as Medues gained. So did he become a Dark Dragon too somehow?

Edited March 16, 2017 by Jotari

[Jedi]

I believe his transformation had something to do with his revival, but its been awhile since I've looked into the Lore of Marths games, I do know the Earth Tribe in particular loathed humans and refused to co-exist with them, and it eventually led them to become mad beasts.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I believe his transformation had something to do with his revival, but its been awhile since I've looked into the Lore of Marths games, I do know the Earth Tribe in particular loathed humans and refused to co-exist with them, and it eventually led them to become mad beasts.

Oh it undoubtedly had something to do with his revival but it's still pretty weird. Especially considering this wasn't even the first time he was revived.

[Replica Model]

As far as my knowledge goes, the first time he was revived was in Shadow Dragon in Marth's time and Medeus looked the same as he did even during Anri's time. So, the way I see it, is that FE 3 Medeus was pulling some "sequel magic" and saying "he's back and he's bigger and badder than ever!" 

[Interdimensional Observer]

Dark Dragons seem to be just Earth Dragons souped up with extra hatred and power.

How Loptyr gained the power is uncertain. How Medeus did, well, you'd be pretty angry if you were slain twice. And being at the Dragon's Table with all those other angry dragons might have upped his power.

Grima, if it is appropriate to speak of him in this case, begins where Medeus left off. Marth slew Medeus and also Gharnef and his lackies, and afterwards nobody was bad enough to contemplate resurrecting Medeus. With the Binding Shield now actively suppressing the feral dragons again, they were trapped in the Dragon's Table, cut off from the outside world. As their minds and bodies degenerated, their resistance to the Shield grew weaker and weaker. However, eventually the individuality of their minds was dissolved due to degeneration and magical pressure. This led to their primal rage and hatred coalescing together. This had a synergistic effect which kept increasing until it applied enough pressure on the seal enough to break through. Now free, this amalgamation of hatred and feral draconic power took on a solidified form- Grima.

[Extrasolar]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Dark Dragons seem to be just Earth Dragons souped up with extra hatred and power.

I always saw them as partially this, and partially Earth Dragons corrupted by foul influence/dark, tainted magic. In Medeus' case, he was a normal Earth Dragon until being slain by Anri, and then resurrected through some manner of unholy magic by Gharnef...twice, becoming a Dark Dragon.

For Loptyr, I don't think he was a Dark Dragon until after he was slain - or mortally wounded, to be more accurate - by the Crusaders the first time, but kept artificially in existence through his essence/soul being warped through dark magic coming from the Loptyrian cultists and transmuted into the Loptyr tome.

Of course, Tellius Black Dragons seem to be the laguz analogue to the Manakete Dark Dragons, and they show that darker-themed dragons (not only in looks, but they breathe a darkness-infused breath) can exist without necessarily being evil.

So far we've only seen Earth Dragons fall to becoming Dark Dragons, but I see no reason why other dragons couldn't fall victim to the same... Seeing a corrupted Divine Dragon or Fire Dragon transformed into a Dark Dragon would be kind of cool (other than Duma, who I'm not sure what kind of dragon he started off as; he seems to have been a Divine alongside Mila, unless his reddish color seen in the Echoes trailer mural implies that he was a Fire Dragon?).

Edited March 16, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Dragrath]

6 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I always saw them as partially this, and partially Earth Dragons corrupted by foul influence/dark, tainted magic. In Medeus' case, he was a normal Earth Dragon until being slain by Anri, and then resurrected through some manner of unholy magic by Gharnef...twice, becoming a Dark Dragon.

For Loptyr, I don't think he was a Dark Dragon until after he was slain - or mortally wounded, to be more accurate - by the Crusaders the first time, but kept artificially in existence through his essence/soul warped through dark magic coming from the Loptyrian cultists into the Loptyr tome.

Of course, Tellius Black Dragons seem to be the laguz analogue to the Manakete Dark Dragons, and they show that darker-themed dragons (not only in looks, but they breathe a darkness-infused breath) can exist without necessarily being evil.

So far we've only seen Earth Dragons fall to becoming Dark Dragons, but I see no reason why other dragons couldn't fall victim to the same... Seeing a corrupted Divine Dragon or Fire Dragon transformed into a Dark Dragon would be kind of cool (other than Duma, who I'm not sure what kind of dragon he started off as; he seems to have been a Divine alongside Mila, unless his reddish color seen in the Echoes trailer mural implies that he was a Fire Dragon?).

Part of the situation for Medeus's transformation might be a combination of the method he was revived Gharnef's magic was originally derived through the Darksphere but also the synergy with how he died and the opponents he immediately faced after revival (i.e. he was used by Gharnef as a puppet/tool twice and then ends up facing the same person who just killed him with the same weapon Anri used... If that doesn't set someone into a state of rage perfect for corruption by Gharnef's corrupting magic then I don't know what will)

Using the analogy of Canas regarding the corrupting side of Dark magic being  the result of going beyond ones means to acquire power and effectively "staring into the abyss, Loptyr honestly seems more comparable to Gharnef in that he seems to have been a practitioner of Dark magic initially who basically seems to have done the equivalent of becoming the FE equivalent of a D&D Lich somewhat analogous to Gharnef's  Imhullu. The big difference being that as a dragon he was/is vastly more powerful than an equivalent corrupted human and thus way more of a threat.  Galle was a puppet probably part of Loptyr's scheme to avoid degeneracy w/out becoming a  Manakete.

I really want to know how far Loptyr's planning really went to be honest it seems it would require way more coincidences than reasonable to believe for it to not have been planned out... Pick a far away continent? Check. Find some power hungry Gullible insect that will serve as a nice pawn? check. Suspicious dark rituals(I have no doubt that this implies a larger endgame) Check.

The TLDR is Loptyr is more likely to have intentionally become a "Dark Dragon" Where as Medeus may have been more of a side effect/plan by Gharnef.

[Extrasolar]

10 minutes ago, Dragrath said:

Using the analogy of Canas regarding the corrupting side of Dark magic being  the result of going beyond ones means to acquire power and effectively "staring into the abyss, Loptyr honestly seems more comparable to Gharnef in that he seems to have been a practitioner of Dark magic initially who basically seems to have done the equivalent of becoming the FE equivalent of a D&D Lich somewhat analogous to Gharnef's  Imhullu. The big difference being that as a dragon he was/is vastly more powerful than an equivalent corrupted human and thus way more of a threat.  Galle was a puppet probably part of Loptyr's scheme to avoid degeneracy w/out becoming a  Manakete.

Huh, you make a good point here regarding dark magic. Considering it is the most powerful type of magic in just raw numbers, and considering one is in danger of losing oneself to being possessed by the dark powers themselves without sufficient, deliberate force of will to stay otherwise, it all makes sense in context. Considering that humans can communicate and invoke dark spirits/mysterious forces from beyond, there's no reason that dragons couldn't do it too. (Especially considering in Archanea, magic that humans use in general originated from and is devised from dragons), I definitely don't think it's a stretch that the power-hungry Earth Dragon Loptyr would turn to forces of darkness to try and get an edge over Naga and Divine Dragons during the conflict between them and the Earth Dragons.

Though as for him not wanting to become a Manakete, iirc that whole thing hadn't happened yet, and the dragons were still in their fully dragon glory. Loptyr was mortally wounded before all of that went down back on Archanea.

I definitely think Medeus was a victim of circumstance for the most part in regards to him transforming into a Dark Dragon (corrupted not only by the dark magic used to resurrect him, but his own rage and hatred of humans meaning that he gave into the darkness in return for being powered up), but yeah, it seems that Loptyr's designs and actions were more deliberate in nature.

[Dragrath]

5 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Huh, you make a good point here regarding dark magic. Considering it is the most powerful type of magic in just raw numbers, and considering one is in danger of losing oneself to being possessed by the dark powers themselves without sufficient, deliberate force of will to stay otherwise, it all makes sense in context. Considering that humans can communicate and invoke dark spirits/mysterious forces from beyond, there's no reason that dragons couldn't do it too. (Especially considering in Archanea, magic that humans use in general originated from and is devised from dragons), I definitely don't think it's a stretch that the power-hungry Earth Dragon Loptyr would turn to forces of darkness to try and get an edge over Naga and Divine Dragons during the conflict between them and the Earth Dragons.

Though as for him not wanting to become a Manakete, iirc that whole thing hadn't happened yet, and the dragons were still in their fully dragon glory. Loptyr was mortally wounded before all of that went down back on Archanea.

I definitely think Medeus was a victim of circumstance for the most part in regards to him transforming into a Dark Dragon (corrupted not only by the dark magic used to resurrect him, but his own rage and hatred of humans meaning that he gave into the darkness in return for being powered up), but yeah, it seems that Loptyr's designs and actions were more deliberate in nature.

Yeah the time line isn't something I am really confident in so I may have screwed up on the timeline. (Thanks for the fact check) But the rest seems to be the best explanation considering the evidence I have found I mean just imagine the emotional state Medeus was in and compare that to the more methodical plotting of Loptyr. Loptyr seems to have far more in common with Gharnef than Medeus rebirth and it fits more with our knowledge of Dark magic this way.

[B.Leu]

The wikia trivia about it theorize that it might be stage that all Manakete have access to in one way or another.

Here's the full quote.

Quote

It is unclear if Dark Dragons are a form unique to Earth Dragons or a state that all powerful Dragons can eventually achieve. TearRing Saga appears to suggest the latter interpretation, if it is to be considered canon to the Fire Emblem series. The Binding Blade might also suggest the latter interpretation as well. As despite being referred to as a Demon Dragon, Idunn, who was originally born as a Divine Dragon, seems to display traits assoiated with Dark Dragons well after being corrupted. Including the ability to breathe noxious fumes towards her foes in dragon form in order to damage her enemies.

 

As to how to do it... well, it seems like it's about the mental state, I guess ?

 

[Emperor Hardin]

Its stated Gharnef accelerated Medeus transformation into a Shadow/Dark Dragon in book II, so its possible Medeus would've achieved naturally.

Spoiler

The artwork of Anri and Medeus also seems to depict Medeus as a Shadow Dragon. Its possible, Medeus's true power was a Shadow Dragon and he was an Earth Dragon in book 1 due to not recovering his full power.

In TRS, a man who obtained power from a Divine Dragon also became a Shadow Dragon. In that game, the Shadow Dragon class is identical to the unused Divine Dragon class outside of color scheme.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Its stated Gharnef accelerated Medeus transformation into a Shadow/Dark Dragon in book II, so its possible Medeus would've achieved naturally.

  Hide contents

The artwork of Anri and Medeus also seems to depict Medeus as a Shadow Dragon. Its possible, Medeus's true power was a Shadow Dragon and he was an Earth Dragon in book 1 due to not recovering his full power.

In TRS, a man who obtained power from a Divine Dragon also became a Shadow Dragon. In that game, the Shadow Dragon class is identical to the unused Divine Dragon class outside of color scheme.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. That definitely looks more Dark Dragon than Earth Dragon and Medeus was always known as the Shadow Dragon. Still it kindof raises more questions than it answers. Like how did he transform in the first place and why wasn't any of it mentioned in lore?

Edited March 22, 2017 by Jotari

[Emperor Hardin]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think you hit the nail on the head there. That definitely looks more Earth Dragon than Dark Dragon and Medeus was always known as the Shadow Dragon. Still it kindof raises more questions than it answers. Like how did he transform in the first place and why wasn't any of it mentioned in lore?

Perhaps because Medeus was royalty, experienced, and powerful he became a Shadow Dragon? Keep in mind, Naga chose him to singlehandedly guard the table, not an easy task.

I've no idea, so little is mentioned about Shadow Dragons?