Do you think Echoes will bridge the rift between old and new fans

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'm feeling its going to be not modern enough to draw in the less hardcore fans. I won't mind, but I feel the sea change is just going to turn off too many used to things as they are in Awakening/Fates.

The supposed "game hate cycle" is a cycle of human memory in general. Nowadays we look back on the Middle Ages of Europe with such nostalgia when they, to put it in vulgar terms, sucked. 1950s America is another example- they were great... if you ignored the fears of nuclear annihilation, McCarthyism, and if you were a straight white male of politically "moderate" views. Heck the Bush 2 administration is starting to become a source of nostalgia even. But no politics! 

[L9999]

There is no hope for the rift. I have talked to many new players and most of them are the same. Calling elitists whoever they don't like, saying the older games are anathemas to the world because they don't have casual mode, defending Phoenix Mode even though it obviously spits at the player's intelligence, and most of them are also no censorship warriors who are extremely annoying. 

16 hours ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Dude.

 

There are a lot of people that are starting to defend the prequels, now that TFA is out.

 

It's SICKENING.

Both TFA and the prequels suck. 

[Yula]

5 hours ago, L9999 said:

There is no hope for the rift. I have talked to many new players and most of them are the same. Calling elitists whoever they don't like, saying the older games are anathemas to the world because they don't have casual mode, defending Phoenix Mode even though it obviously spits at the player's intelligence, and most of them are also no censorship warriors who are extremely annoying. 

Both TFA and the prequels suck. 

If you don't want to be called an elitist, stop complaining about optional shit! I've been playing Fire Emblem for the past 14 years now and I've heard some valid complaints about the newer games from the older fans and I've heard some valid complaints about the older games from the newer fans. From BOTH camps, I have heard some stupid complaints, but the dumbest complaints I've heard have always, without fail, come from older fans of the series.

 

The reason why Echoes doesn't have a chance isn't just because of newer fans. It's also because of older fans who have their heads so far up their own ass when it comes to Fire Emblem that they've collapsed into a singularity of irrational hatred for entirely optional additions to the series.

 

Echoes will only serve to fracture the fandom further, as EVERY Fire Emblem game that has come before it has done. Like it or not, there are multiple camps in the fandom. It's not just old vs new fans. Echoes will merely add the Echoes camp to the fandom. BEST case scenario is that the Echoes fanbase merges with the Gaiden fanbase.

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Commander Xelon

[The DanMan]

1 minute ago, Commander Xelon said:

If you don't want to be called an elitist, stop complaining about optional shit! I've been playing Fire Emblem for the past 14 years now and I've heard some valid complaints about the newer games from the older fans and I've heard some valid complaints about the older games from the newer fans. From BOTH camps, I have heard some stupid complaints, but the dumbest complaints I've heard have always, without fail, come from older fans of the series.

 

The reason why Echoes doesn't have a chance isn't just because of newer fans. It's also because of older fans who have their heads so far up their own ass when it comes to Fire Emblem that they've collapsed into a singularity of irrational hatred for entirely optional additions to the series.

I'm sorry, but why the hell are you here on this forum? You jump on your soapbox at the slightest provocation to fling shit in condescension and have been nothing but a pessimist, only responding when you see a chance to further talk down to people. Go around like that and yeah, you're gonna put people on edge. You've been wholly unpleasant-- you just want to bitch about the .1% and throw us in with them.

Optional aspects may not effect the core experience but when critically judging the product as a whole they have to be taken into account. Plus, the "it's optional" argument can be stretched to ludicrous extents. Either way, respecting opinions is a two-way street-- being a complete didact while accusing people of having their heads stuck up their own ass is hypocritical and just plain pathetic.

[Yula]

7 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

You jump on your soapbox at the slightest provocation to fling shit in condescension and have been nothing but a pessimist, only responding when you see a chance to further talk down to people.

Assuming an awful lot about that there. While I am hopeful for Fire Emblem Echoes, I refuse to be optimistic about the fandom.

 

7 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

 You've been wholly unpleasant-- you just want to bitch about the .1% and throw us in with them.

Alright, I'll say something nice. Wait, I already have, in my signature.

 

7 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

being a complete diadect while accusing people of having their heads stuck up their own ass is hypocritical and just plain pathetic.

Fixed it for you. By the way, I admit that I have my own biases.

 

My opinion hasn't changed, Echoes will not bridge the fractured fandom. Best case scenario is that Echoes fans and OG Gaiden fans get together and form the Echoes-Gaiden faction of the fandom.

 

As for why I'm on this forum, I like Fire Emblem and I'm an idealistic fool.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Commander Xelon

[The DanMan]

18 minutes ago, Commander Xelon said:

Assuming an awful lot about that there. While I am hopeful for Fire Emblem Echoes, I refuse to be optimistic about the fandom.

 

Alright, I'll say something nice. Wait, I already have, in my signature.

 

Fixed it for you. By the way, I admit that I have my own biases.

 

My opinion hasn't changed, Echoes will not bridge the fractured fandom. Best case scenario is that Echoes fans and OG Gaiden fans get together and form the Echoes-Gaiden faction of the fandom.

 

As for why I'm on this forum, I like Fire Emblem and I'm an idealistic fool.

I'm going off of everything I've seen from you here. You don't address what people have to say unless you can criticize or correct it (see: the post of yours I'm quoting, dropping by the pre-order thread to say "Amazon sucks" and leaving it at that, your own sales prediction thread). Pretty much nobody says Echoes will bridge the divide-- but you feel the need to hang around and insult those who may disagree.

And no, some vague quote about the goodness of humanity and another condemnation of the wonderfully vague "fandom" in your signature doesn't make up for anything.

EDIT: Oh look, a response in your sales thread saying you'd changed your opinion that was made minutes before my post.

Edited March 20, 2017 by The DanMan

[Yula]

5 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

 dropping by the pre-order thread to say "Amazon sucks" and leaving it at that, .

And I was proven wrong and had accepted that I was wrong. Also way to paraphrase it in your own words to support your own cause. I can go openly admit that I was wrong about Amazon if you'd like.

 

5 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

 your own sales prediction thread).

Check the latest post before ya make that connection.

 

5 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

 another condemnation of the wonderfully vague "fandom" in your signature doesn't make up for anything.

So pointing out that Gaiden was a divisive game within the fandom, which by the way everyone already knows is a condemnation? Good to know, I'll change it immediately.

 

No, none of this is sarcasm. By the way, the quote about the goodness of humanity is a Castlevania: Symphony of the Night reference.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Commander Xelon

[L9999]

37 minutes ago, Commander Xelon said:

If you don't want to be called an elitist, stop complaining about optional shit! I've been playing Fire Emblem for the past 14 years now and I've heard some valid complaints about the newer games from the older fans and I've heard some valid complaints about the older games from the newer fans. From BOTH camps, I have heard some stupid complaints, but the dumbest complaints I've heard have always, without fail, come from older fans of the series.

 

The reason why Echoes doesn't have a chance isn't just because of newer fans. It's also because of older fans who have their heads so far up their own ass when it comes to Fire Emblem that they've collapsed into a singularity of irrational hatred for entirely optional additions to the series.

 

Echoes will only serve to fracture the fandom further, as EVERY Fire Emblem game that has come before it has done. Like it or not, there are multiple camps in the fandom. It's not just old vs new fans. Echoes will merely add the Echoes camp to the fandom. BEST case scenario is that the Echoes fanbase merges with the Gaiden fanbase.

Why should I be called an elitist for criticizing a game to begin with? If something is optional it doesn't matter, it exists. 

[The DanMan]

2 minutes ago, Commander Xelon said:

And I was proven wrong and had accepted that I was wrong. Also way to paraphrase it in your own words to support your own cause. I can go openly admit that I was wrong about Amazon if you'd like.

 

Check the latest post before ya make that connection.

 

So pointing out that Gaiden was a divisive game within the fandom, which by the way everyone already knows is a condemnation? Good to know, I'll change it immediately.

 

No, none of this is sarcasm. By the way, the quote about the goodness of humanity is a Castlevania: Symphony of the Night reference.

My apologies for the paraphrase, but I was put on edge. And I edited the post you responded to noting that you'd just posted in the sales prediction thread.

Anyways, most people haven't experienced Gaiden-- if SoV's a good game, people will generally like it. Fans aren't going to be "horrifically split"-- unless you exclusively use "fandom" to describe those with extreme opinions who have largely split themselves off into echo chambers.

[KliffIsTheOG]

4 hours ago, The DanMan said:

My apologies for the paraphrase, but I was put on edge. And I edited the post you responded to noting that you'd just posted in the sales prediction thread.

Anyways, most people haven't experienced Gaiden-- if SoV's a good game, people will generally like it. Fans aren't going to be "horrifically split"-- unless you exclusively use "fandom" to describe those with extreme opinions who have largely split themselves off into echo chambers.

ECHO CHAMBERS?

[ChibiToastExplosion]

2 hours ago, KliffIsTheOG said:

ECHO CHAMBERS?

Gonna admit, I really laughed because as I saw this I scrolled down and saw your cliff signature...

"nerdy voice" ECHO CAMBERS *crits*

[ElfenTaiga]

15 hours ago, L9999 said:

defending Phoenix Mode even though it obviously spits at the player's intelligence

What reason is there not to defend Phoenix Mode? I'll never understand the hate for optional gameplay modes. I've played classic mode in Awakening/Fates because not having permadeath makes everything way too easy. Casual makes it so I can play carelessly and not face any consequences for it. I'm not a fan of Casual or Phoenix but I don't see any reason to hold any particular hatred towards the modes though. It's optional. I don't like it, so I don't use it. It's like condemning a game for having a Very Easy/Easy mode. What's the point of that?

 

Aside from that the people with more extreme positions in the fandom aren't going to come together for echoes. They both have wildly different expectations for the franchise.

Edited March 21, 2017 by ElfenTaiga

[L9999]

33 minutes ago, ElfenTaiga said:

What reason is there not to defend Phoenix Mode? I'll never understand the hate for optional gameplay modes. I've played classic mode in Awakening/Fates because not having permadeath makes everything way too easy. Casual makes it so I can play carelessly and not face any consequences for it. I'm not a fan of Casual or Phoenix but I don't see any reason to hold any particular hatred towards the modes though. It's optional. I don't like it, so I don't use it. It's like condemning a game for having a Very Easy/Easy mode. What's the point of that?

 

Aside from that the people with more extreme positions in the fandom aren't going to come together for echoes. They both have wildly different expectations for the franchise.

If there is an "easy mode" for begginers or rushed play Casual mode is right there. In Phoenix Mode units that die return instantly, killing the entire point of strategy when you can clear maps without thinking, and I criticize it because being too easy is a flaw. Just because it is optional doesn't mean I can pretend it doesn't exist, just like perverted minigames and one dimensional supports. 

[Altrosa]

Even as someone whom freely abused Pheonix Mode, I won't miss it. It really does make Fates degrade into a press to win button, and I understand it was included to aid new fans adjust to Conquest's higher difficulty, it was simply too much.

The Mila's Device thing seems to be a better alternative.

 

That said, Fates was supposed to be the game that bridged fans new and old, and if it couldn't, despite giving all the characters, multiple routes, and difficulties, I really doubt SoV can. 

 

To go back a bit, I always assumed the level of vitriol that surrounded Fates localization came down to the fact the fan-made English patch, which was as much a direct translation of the JP scripts as possible, was up and out months before the official Treehouse translation, with the crew behind it making it as accessible as possible.

So, seeing all these inexplicable changes made many players angry, as if Treehouse somehow tainted the game as a "pure" translation was already available. Shoot, Soleil was such a hot topic, Treehouse released their entire Corrin/Soleil support script weeks early to calm people down.

Honestly, I feel like people really don't know the difference between localization and translation. 

 

And, comparing the FE fanbase to Sonic's is an outright disservice. FE has fandom vitriol, but Sonic has a fandom for it's fandom vitriol.

Shoot, one day after Forces was announced and many major gaming jounalists were decrying it for basically existing. It's clickbaity nonsense that no other franchise deals with, just begging fans to get riled up and defensive on their sites, giving haters content to trash, making this disgusting cycle of nonsense that's been going for nigh on a decade now with gaming sites cashing out (and it's partly Sega's fault.) But that's a discussion for another day. Sonic '06 is eleven years old.

[SuperIb]

15 minutes ago, Altrosa said:

That said, Fates was supposed to be the game that bridged fans new and old, and if it couldn't, despite giving all the characters, multiple routes, and difficulties, I really doubt SoV can. 

Only Conquest was tailored for older FE fans and from what I noticed, older FE fans did like and appreciate it. The stuff that bothered most older FE fans was all the fan-service-y stuff, which Echoes seems to not have. The multiple routes was definitely not an attempt to unite the different generations of fans and just because there are a lot of characters, doesn't mean people will inherently like them.

Sorry if I'm coming off as like, "attacking" you or whatever. That's not my intention... I just want to add clarity. I think Echoes has a much better chance than Fates, if I'm being honest. Then again, I don't think it really matters one way or another.

57 minutes ago, L9999 said:

Just because it is optional doesn't mean I can pretend it doesn't exist

Phoenix mode REALLY shouldn't bother you. It's optional for a reason. You act as if it's the worse thing to happen to FE. I get your reasons, but seriously? I know that you still acknowledge it even though it's optional, but it's just another play-style for those who want to play literally for the story. I don't get why people playing a certain way should bug you, it just makes no sense.

[thecrimsonflash]

4 minutes ago, SuperIb said:

Only Conquest was tailored for older FE fans and from what I noticed, older FE fans did like and appreciate it. The stuff that bothered most older FE fans was all the fan-service-y stuff, which Echoes seems to not have. The multiple routes was definitely not an attempt to unite the different generations of fans and just because there are a lot of characters, doesn't mean people will inherently like them.

The way I see it, if you bought conquest and not birthright, they still got 40 bucks out of you.

IS can be pretty smart sometimes.

[SuperIb]

4 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

The way I see it, if you bought conquest and not birthright, they still got 40 bucks out of you.

IS can be pretty smart sometimes.

I mean yeah, but I was specifically talking about how doing that isn't an attempt to "bridge the gap" between older and newer fans lol.

[thecrimsonflash]

 

1 minute ago, SuperIb said:

I mean yeah, but I was specifically talking about how doing that isn't an attempt to "bridge the gap" between older and newer fans lol.

That kinda cements it further though, when you think about it. In this regard I don't think that IS really has close the "fandom rift" as much of a priority.

I suppose that could be me just thinking too hard about it.

[SuperIb]

7 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

That kinda cements it further though, when you think about it. In this regard I don't think that IS really has close the "fandom rift" as much of a priority.

I suppose that could be me just thinking too hard about it.

I don't even know, man. xD Regardless Echoes seems like it'll do better at this, so that's good I guess.

[Altrosa]

51 minutes ago, SuperIb said:

Only Conquest was tailored for older FE fans and from what I noticed, older FE fans did like and appreciate it. The stuff that bothered most older FE fans was all the fan-service-y stuff, which Echoes seems to not have. The multiple routes was definitely not an attempt to unite the different generations of fans and just because there are a lot of characters, doesn't mean people will inherently like them.

Sorry if I'm coming off as like, "attacking" you or whatever. That's not my intention... I just want to add clarity. I think Echoes has a much better chance than Fates, if I'm being honest. Then again, I don't think it really matters one way or another.

No worries.

That is a good point, though, but it was all that fanservice that rubbed players wrong. Fates Conquest had the gameplay, but covered it in content that leaves a bad taste in some fans mouths. Birthright waa accessible, but same problem. Revelation attempted to be happy medium, but is a mess storywise.

Fates attempting to please everyone hurt the game's overall quality.

 

I'd rather IS just make the best version of Gaiden they can by implementing all the good ideas they've accrued since then verses adding way too much superfluous fanservice, again.

[SuperIb]

15 minutes ago, Altrosa said:

That is a good point, though, but it was all that fanservice that rubbed players wrong. Fates Conquest had the gameplay, but covered it in content that leaves a bad taste in some fans mouths. Birthright waa accessible, but same problem. Revelation attempted to be happy medium, but is a mess storywise.

Fates attempting to please everyone hurt the game's overall quality.

I'd definitely agree with that. All I hope is that support conversations are added... I think that might be the deal breaker for a lot of people. If they aren't added then oh well, but that's definitely an aspect that the modern FE games have done rather well with.

[Altrosa]

14 minutes ago, SuperIb said:

I'd definitely agree with that. All I hope is that support conversations are added... I think that might be the deal breaker for a lot of people. If they aren't added then oh well, but that's definitely an aspect that the modern FE games have done rather well with.

I agree with that, too. That seems to be the one thing everyone can agree on is the desire for some of supports in SoV.

[bufkus]

I mean there are so many different tiers of "old fans" that this is an impossible thing to gauge. It'll bring back Gaiden fans, but not much else.

If you want most of the original diehard FE fans to return, Nintendo needs to reconcile with Shozo Kaga and bring him back to lead the franchise. Anyone who's played Vestaria Saga knows that Kaga is still at the top of his game.

Of course that will never happen, so the best we can hope for is new FE games that retain the spirit of FE, even if they don't capture the devilish game design of the past.

Edited March 21, 2017 by bufkus

[mikethepokemaster]

I have my doubts now, since the trailer on youtube drop and Alm Grandpa said the stuff about pair up and archers all I see is flame wars and arguments and return to form all over YouTube. I admit I been trigger by some comments and even put my two scents in but come on! More than anything they were saying since it a remake it won't have modern fire  emblem game play.

[Dragonage2ftw]

19 minutes ago, mikethepokemaster said:

I have my doubts now, since the trailer on youtube drop and Alm Grandpa said the stuff about pair up and archers all I see is flame wars and arguments and return to form all over YouTube. I admit I been trigger by some comments and even put my two scents in but come on! More than anything they were saying since it a remake it won't have modern fire  emblem game play.

Yeah.

 

This.

 

See what I meant? The remake is burning bridges, not building new ones.