Do you think Echoes will bridge the rift between old and new fans

[Kaze]

3 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Probably not. Both sides have their problems that will just continue festering and will not be resolved, just like any splits in fandom. 

The worst members of the Purists/Old fans hate everything new. For the most part they are the hipsters of the FE fandom, and would have rather seen Fire Emblem die than Awakening ever see the light of day. There is no pleasing that. A literal bit for bit remake of Holy War wouldn't please them. They will always find something to complain about. 

They complain about every new feature, without looks at the flaws of their own beloved games.

The worst parts of the newcomers/casual crowd are completely unwilling to try the older games. To put things short, this is your waifu, weeb, plays just for the dating mechanics and cute anime girls crowd. They aren't willing to try the older games. No avatars, no dating mechanics, older anime style. These are the type that won't be satisfied unless Fire Emblem reverts to a medieval dating simulator. 

 

The rest of us will be fine. We will be fine knowing Fire Emblem has not died, and is now doing better than ever with no end in sight soon. 

So no, Shadows of Valentina won't bridge the gap. The purists wouldn't be happy unless this thing was released with 8 bit graphics on the Atari, and the weebs aren't happy because they can't date their new wiafus. 

The two extremes of the Fire Emblem fandom are why I tend to avoid most Fire Emblem discussions recently. Another reason I tend to disappear when a new Fire Emblem game comes out is that regardless, you see nitpickers that would only be happy if we got a direct translation from the Japanese version even if the context of some things is lost.

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

Correction the purists won't be happy if the Map design isn't changed to be more tactical.

As someone who hasn't played Gaiden, could you explain to me what the primary complaint about Gaiden's map design is?

2 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

And I was really surprised but those newcomers that actually exist that were complaining about the lack of an MU/avatar and marriage the way Awakening/Fates.

I actually have a friend who is a newcomer to Fire Emblem that wishes Awakening and Fates didn't have the My Unit/Avatar or marriage.

I'll be happy if Echoes doesn't have a my unit/avatar.

[Light Strategist]

17 minutes ago, KazeNinja17 said:

There will always be at least one point of complaint in the series.

As such with literally everything that exists.

Joining the conversation personally, Awakening was my first entry in the series and a short while later, I jumped to the GBA for Blazing Blade. I've kinda hopped back and forth in time, so to speak.

Technically, I still need to finish the endgame of Path of Radiance and the last 2 chapters of Sacred Stones but I can't say that my experience has been a bad one (though looking back on Fates...) I've played a bit of Gaiden but it was basically how it's aged that's deterred me from playing the original. On the other hand, I'm trying to play a bit of Genealogy and feel like I could finish it with the patience for it. As for 1 and 3, I'd prefer to stick with the remakes for a simplified control scheme that's more readily stored in my mind. That leaves Binding Blade out of everything I've played at least a little which feels very much like the other GBA entries to me which is satisfactory.

Getting to the point, I feel as though the accessibility of Echoes will be useful for the people that fall into a category similar to myself. Falling into a category of wanting the convenience and simplicity of a control scheme that's functional and responsive with updated features and additional content.

Maybe that's just me though.

[Jedi]

15 minutes ago, KazeNinja17 said:

As someone who hasn't played Gaiden, could you explain to me what the primary complaint about Gaiden's map design is?

It's too straightforward for a number of people and terrain is too strong, those are the main complaints with the map design, some maps are kind of big while being empty. Its not all the time, but I will show you one of the more egregious examples.

 

[Kaze]

Just now, Jedi said:

It's too straightforward for a number of people and terrain is too strong, those are the main complaints with the map design, some maps are kind of big while being empty. Its not all the time, but I will show you one of the more egregious examples.

 

Yeah. I can definitely see that. Then again, these were maps from 25 years ago. Hopefully the maps in Echoes will vastly improve on this. (Note: I haven't paid too close attention to the map design/layout in the clips we've seen in Echoes)

[Jedi]

2 minutes ago, KazeNinja17 said:

Yeah. I can definitely see that. Then again, these were maps from 25 years ago. Hopefully the maps in Echoes will vastly improve on this. (Note: I haven't paid too close attention to the map design/layout in the clips we've seen in Echoes)

They look pretty 1 to 1 from what we've seen in the few videos and screenshots, so we'll see. 

This map doesn't show why people tend to dislike the terrain, but theres a graveyard you fight in where the gravestones give a massive amount of avoid for you and the foes, but they'll probably tweek that at least.

[Sword_of_Dusk]

39 minutes ago, Jedi said:

It's too straightforward for a number of people and terrain is too strong, those are the main complaints with the map design, some maps are kind of big while being empty. Its not all the time, but I will show you one of the more egregious examples.

 

Wow, what the ever loving fudge? Even though this is way old, I have to wonder who thought this was a good design choice?

[Dandy Druid]

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

They look pretty 1 to 1 from what we've seen in the few videos and screenshots, so we'll see. 

This map doesn't show why people tend to dislike the terrain, but theres a graveyard you fight in where the gravestones give a massive amount of avoid for you and the foes, but they'll probably tweek that at least.

We've only seen the early levels so far. I'm expecting more changes later in the game, where maps were being reused in the original. I'm going to guess that new maps will be available in place of any recyclables, at least I hope.

[Eleanore]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

They look pretty 1 to 1 from what we've seen in the few videos and screenshots, so we'll see. 

This map doesn't show why people tend to dislike the terrain, but theres a graveyard you fight in where the gravestones give a massive amount of avoid for you and the foes, but they'll probably tweek that at least.

There's been a screenshot showing that graves still give +60 avoid, so that doesn't seem to be changed. To be fair that is in Celica's part of the story that is front-loaded with mages who ignore terrain when attacking, but not when getting attacked, so it's mostly a plus for the player I'd imagine. (disclaimer I only read an LP and has no personal experience with the gameplay).

 

7 hours ago, KazeNinja17 said:

Another reason I tend to disappear when a new Fire Emblem game comes out is that regardless, you see nitpickers that would only be happy if we got a direct translation from the Japanese version even if the context of some things is lost.

Dear God, nothing annoys me more than this. Fates was very flawed in its localisation, but the extremes some people go with this translation thing just bugs the hell out of me. I don't know why I subject myself to it honestly, and I should probably be smart like you and just block the tag around release. Pretty sure I was following you on tumblr though (you use the same name, right? cool cosplays?), and the way you handled all the negativity was really impressive.

[Lethakitty]

Echoes could possibly bridge the fans, but its more likely that it won't. I see the half that didn't like Awakening and Fates claiming that they are ruining Gaiden, and the newcomers thrown off by how different Gaiden is. Also the dungeon crawling is being made a big focus which I see will just make another split in the fanbase for the ones who like Echoes.

[mikethepokemaster]

26 minutes ago, Lethakitty said:

Echoes could possibly bridge the fans, but its more likely that it won't. I see the half that didn't like Awakening and Fates claiming that they are ruining Gaiden, and the newcomers thrown off by how different Gaiden is. Also the dungeon crawling is being made a big focus which I see will just make another split in the fanbase for the ones who like Echoes.

I personally like the dungeon crawling I think it a good fecture and it remind me of persona and smt4  when you slash the enmey and cause damage and can go first.

[Lethakitty]

Just now, mikethepokemaster said:

I personally like the dungeon crawling I think it a good fecture and it remind me of persona and smt4  when you slash the enmey and cause damage and can go first.

I like the dungeon crawling too. I am just worried about the depth to the dungeons themselves. The dungeon crawling is a lot like the Tales series which I like exploring the dungeons, but I feel like the dungeons can overstay there welcome in an uninspired way or be too short, but that's my problem with dungeons in general for any game

[Thane]

As has already been stated, Fire Emblem has always had a fragmented fanbase, which is natural given the series' lifespan and number of installments. I don't think one single game will change that unless it's so good no one can find any major flaws with it, which sounds very unlikely. Rather than hoping this game makes us all hold hands and sing Kumbaya, we should all strive to learn to respect differing opinions no matter what game we're discussing.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Thane

[mikethepokemaster]

21 minutes ago, Lethakitty said:

I like the dungeon crawling too. I am just worried about the depth to the dungeons themselves. The dungeon crawling is a lot like the Tales series which I like exploring the dungeons, but I feel like the dungeons can overstay there welcome in an uninspired way or be too short, but that's my problem with dungeons in general for any game

I know what you mean in smt 4:A it was really annoying in the final dungeon with it being g overly complicated. Hopefully  Echoes dungeon are simple but fun.  

[The DanMan]

Not really. Everybody who likes Gaiden seems to be happy, but besides that I'm not so sure. We're going to see newer fans and some major gaming "journalism" outlets dismiss it for lack of an Avatar, pair-up, and S-supports (looking at you, Gamespot; criticized RD for the story but not Fates and whined about Conquest not having grinding), and people on both sides just not thrilled with Gaiden's little intricacies. I hope I'm proved somewhat wrong on this...

[mikethepokemaster]

7 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

Not really. Everybody who likes Gaiden seems to be happy, but besides that I'm not so sure. We're going to see newer fans and some major gaming "journalism" outlets dismiss it for lack of an Avatar, pair-up, and S-supports (looking at you, Gamespot; criticized RD for the story but not Fates and whined about Conquest not having grinding), and people on both sides just not thrilled with Gaiden's little intricacies. I hope I'm proved somewhat wrong on this...

Really RD from what I hear is a good story probably was boring to the reviewer or he wasn't a fan of srpgs. The fan probably going to be more split. YouTube will be even more toxic

[The DanMan]

2 minutes ago, mikethepokemaster said:

Really RD from what I hear is a good story probably was boring to the reviewer or he wasn't a fan of srpgs. The fan probably going to be more split. YouTube will be even more toxic

A lot of people are pretty mixed on RD's story... to me, the fact that RD was criticized for it by many outlets and yet Awakening got praised to high heaven demonstrates an erosion of critical thinking (as in, thinking about a game critically). As such, gamers have gravitated towards a select few who are hypercritical of everything to the point of being basically contrarian-- but that's a topic for some other time.

[Eleanore]

1 hour ago, Lethakitty said:

I like the dungeon crawling too. I am just worried about the depth to the dungeons themselves. The dungeon crawling is a lot like the Tales series which I like exploring the dungeons, but I feel like the dungeons can overstay there welcome in an uninspired way or be too short, but that's my problem with dungeons in general for any game

I don't think it's a problem if they are too short for something like FE. In Tales they are a big part of the gameplay and SMT/Persona is completely based around the dungeon crawling. There's also the matter of random encounters, in normal RPGs the point of them is that you get done with them in seconds (especially tales), but with SRPGS that bring you to a new grid map that isn't possible.

Either the dungeons have to be pretty short for this to not become an annoyance, the encounter rate have to be really, really low or very easy so you can pretty much press auto play after a while. Having grind maps isn't a problem in something like Awakening or Devil Survivor where it is a choice, but could get annoying fast if the game keeps forcing you onto them.

Not to sound too critical, because I do really like the inclusion of the dungeons in Echoes, I just hope that the encounter rate will be low, or we'll have some item that makes them easy to avoid.

[Lethakitty]

1 minute ago, Eleanore said:

I don't think it's a problem if they are too short for something like FE. In Tales they are a big part of the gameplay and SMT/Persona is completely based around the dungeon crawling. There's also the matter of random encounters, in normal RPGs the point of them is that you get done with them in seconds (especially tales), but with SRPGS that bring you to a new grid map that isn't possible.

Either the dungeons have to be pretty short for this to not become an annoyance, the encounter rate have to be really, really low or very easy so you can pretty much press auto play after a while. Having grind maps isn't a problem in something like Awakening or Devil Survivor where it is a choice, but could get annoying fast if the game keeps forcing you onto them.

Not to sound too critical, because I do really like the inclusion of the dungeons in Echoes, I just hope that the encounter rate will be low, or we'll have some item that makes them easy to avoid.

I see dungeons being a bigger focus in Echoes. we do know that the Alm and Celica Amiibo unlock a new dungeon. also the Dungeons in the original Gaiden weren't as major as they seem like they are in Echoes now.

[Yula]

1 hour ago, The DanMan said:

As such, gamers have gravitated towards a select few who are hypercritical of everything to the point of being basically contrarian-- but that's a topic for some other time.

The fact that someone in the fire emblem fandom can say this without a shred of sarcasm tells me that the fandom has no sense of irony. Being hypercritical of everything and contrarian is the Fire Emblem fandom's modus operandi at this point. It has been this bad since awakening came out, primarily due to the powerful blinding force of nostalgia. The other MO of the fandom is complaining about optional things, but that is neither here nor there.

 

As I have stated before, the section of people in this fandom that will be the most hostile towards Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia will be the Seisen no Keifu fanboys. Not the newcomers, not the Tellius group, not the GBA fans like myself. It'll be the people who blindly look at FE4 as if it was the greatest thing ever, because in their minds, it's an insult that Gaiden was chosen for a remake over Seisen. How do I know this? I watched this go down with Shin Monsho no Nazo.

 

As for how the rest of the fandom will treat Echoes? Those who love the NES(Or DS) games will love it. Those who love the GBA games could potentially like it. Those that love the Tellius games may be put off from it as might the people who started with the 3DS games. There are variables within each part of the fanbase, so this is a generalization. The biggest variable lies not within the fandom(Which is so predictable at this point it ceases to be funny. Even the Sonic Fandom has surprised me in the last few years because the fandom seems to come together, both old and new when it comes to Sonic Mania), but it lies with people who will be picking up Fire Emblem for the first time in their lives, starting with Shadows of Valentia.

 

If you dislike what I said, then you're free to have your own opinion. I'm just stating my predictions based on patterns I've been seeing for nine years.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Commander Xelon

[The DanMan]

1 minute ago, Commander Xelon said:

The fact that someone in the fire emblem fandom can say this without a shred of sarcasm tells me that the fandom has no sense of irony. Being hypercritical of everything and contrarian is the Fire Emblem fandom's modus operandi at this point. It has been this bad since awakening came out, primarily due to the powerful blinding force of nostalgia. The other MO of the fandom is complaining about optional things, but that is neither here nor there.

 

As I have stated before, the section of people in this fandom that will be the most hostile towards Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia will be the Seisen no Keifu fanboys. Not the newcomers, not the Tellius group, not the GBA fans like myself. It'll be the people who blindly look at FE4 as if it was the greatest thing ever, because in their minds, it's an insult that Gaiden was chosen for a remake over Seisen. How do I know this? I watched this go down with Shin Monsho no Nazo.

 

As for how the rest of the fandom will treat Echoes? Those who love the NES(Or DS) games will love it. Those who love the GBA games could potentially like it. Those that love the Tellius games may be put off from it as might the people who started with the 3DS games. There are variables within each part of the fanbase, so this is a generalization. The biggest variable lies not within the fandom(Which is so predictable at this point it ceases to be funny. Even the Sonic Fandom has surprised me in the last few years because the fandom seems to come together, both old and new when it comes to Sonic Mania), but it lies with people who will be picking up Fire Emblem for the first time in their lives, starting with Shadows of Valentia.

 

If you dislike what I said, then you're free to have your own opinion. I'm just stating my predictions based on patterns I've been seeing for nine years.

I've seen none of that behavior over Echoes. I haven't seen a single person mention FE4 and it in the same context other than "I hope it gets remade next". Those people you described are either tucked tightly into the backside of the internet or virtually extinct because I've seen a lot on here, gamefaqs, the subreddit, heck even youtube comments and nobody's been that unreasonable. Heck, Fates pretty much drove them out entirely from what I've observed-- the fandom's changed quite a bit since 2010, you know. If anything, you're straw-manning based on distant precedence. 

[Yula]

7 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

the fandom's changed quite a bit since 2010, you know.

It's gotten more filled with vitriol and denial in my experience.

[mikethepokemaster]

14 minutes ago, Commander Xelon said:

The fact that someone in the fire emblem fandom can say this without a shred of sarcasm tells me that the fandom has no sense of irony. Being hypercritical of everything and contrarian is the Fire Emblem fandom's modus operandi at this point. It has been this bad since awakening came out, primarily due to the powerful blinding force of nostalgia. The other MO of the fandom is complaining about optional things, but that is neither here nor there.

 

As I have stated before, the section of people in this fandom that will be the most hostile towards Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia will be the Seisen no Keifu fanboys. Not the newcomers, not the Tellius group, not the GBA fans like myself. It'll be the people who blindly look at FE4 as if it was the greatest thing ever, because in their minds, it's an insult that Gaiden was chosen for a remake over Seisen. How do I know this? I watched this go down with Shin Monsho no Nazo.

 

As for how the rest of the fandom will treat Echoes? Those who love the NES(Or DS) games will love it. Those who love the GBA games could potentially like it. Those that love the Tellius games may be put off from it as might the people who started with the 3DS games. There are variables within each part of the fanbase, so this is a generalization. The biggest variable lies not within the fandom(Which is so predictable at this point it ceases to be funny. Even the Sonic Fandom has surprised me in the last few years because the fandom seems to come together, both old and new when it comes to Sonic Mania), but it lies with people who will be picking up Fire Emblem for the first time in their lives, starting with Shadows of Valentia.

 

If you dislike what I said, then you're free to have your own opinion. I'm just stating my predictions based on patterns I've been seeing for nine years.

I feel like you response was the most accurate of the fandom response to Echoes. I really like it.

[Ertrick36]

10 hours ago, Jedi said:

It's too straightforward for a number of people and terrain is too strong, those are the main complaints with the map design, some maps are kind of big while being empty. Its not all the time, but I will show you one of the more egregious examples.

*Pic*

I totally forgot about this map.  Probably because it was that dull.  Also, your point shows just how clueless I am about the fandom.  I've played the games, sure, but I know next to nothing about how much of the fandom works aside from the fact that they're apparently divided on every game in the series.  Which honestly seems to be every fandom nowadays.

35 minutes ago, Eleanore said:

Not to sound too critical, because I do really like the inclusion of the dungeons in Echoes, I just hope that the encounter rate will be low, or we'll have some item that makes them easy to avoid.

I'm betting there'll be an item.  Or encounter rate will be tied to difficulty.  If nothing else, there's a spell you get at some point in Gaiden that outright removes a number of enemies.

 

New thought regarding the topic...  When I said I thought Echoes would bridge for newer fans, I was only thinking from my own perspective; I recognize that many newer fans won't find Echoes appealing for numerous reasons.  But regardless, this is all that really matters to me as someone who has grown accustomed to niche games:

11 hours ago, eclipse said:

For the rest of us, I think we'll have fun with it~!

 

Also, I think regardless of whether the game is good or not, I think one thing we can truly bridge on is that the music is pretty damn good... right?  Or maybe that's just me...

[The DanMan]

52 minutes ago, Commander Xelon said:

It's gotten more filled with vitriol and denial in my experience.

Are you trying to claim I'm in denial?

I've seen maybe three people on SF act like FE4's the literal best thing ever. On other sites it's equally as infrequent (a lot of people really like FE4, but most recognize it has issues). I'd say the vitriol and denial has largely stayed the same, with the difference of the most elitist members leaving made up for by newer fans who find it easier to cry that term at anybody who dare disagree with them. I've been called a "blind elitisit who's just objectively wrong" for trying to argue Awakening's localization was worse than Fates'.

Heck, the part of my initial post you replied to was on gaming culture in general rather than talking about anything specific within the FE fandom. Should I have strayed that far from the topic at hand in hindsight? No. But you took time to type up a wall of text condemning some vague group of individuals, spurred on by that alone. What has that accomplished other than a thread derail?

Edited March 17, 2017 by The DanMan

[Yula]

1 minute ago, The DanMan said:

Are you trying to claim I'm in denial?

No. I'm not. By the way, I didn't quite derail the topic, I was explaining why this ain't going to bridge a thing.