Could Garnef really do it?

[Naglfar94]

Title says all so I was wondering as I just recently got done playing Dark Dragon and Sword of Light. At one point on one of the chapters Garnef tells Marth that Medeus is of no threat to him and that he has him completely under his control with the Falchion and Mafu/Imhullu in his hands.

So I was wondering is this true? Or is he just bluffing? Could Garnef really if he wanted to beat Medeus? Is he strong enough to do it? Seeing as to how early he ''dies'' in the game he doesn`t even make it to the final chapter to fight alongside Medeus. So yeah what do you guys think? Game stats aside I wonder if Garnef truly could put down Medeus if he wanted I mean I guess he could since he is immortal with Mafu and only Starlight could hurt him..But Medeus is half immortal too since Earth Dragons cannot be harmed normally well they can be is just hard.

And seeing as to how Medeus is I think if he heard that he would totally turn on Garnef and try and take him down he seems like that type.

[Magical Glace]

Medeus doesn't have Starlight, so I don't think he'd be able to beat Gharnef.

As far as I remember, it's specifically stated nothing besides that specific tome can get past Imhullu's protective magic.  

Though, Falchion wouldn't be able to help Gharnef much, considering he's 1. a mage and 2. not Altean royalty.

[The Geek]

5 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Medeus doesn't have Starlight, so I don't think he'd be able to beat Gharnef.

As far as I remember, it's specifically stated nothing besides that specific tome can get past Imhullu's protective magic.  

Though, Falchion wouldn't be able to help Gharnef much, considering he's 1. a mage and 2. not Altean royalty.

That's what he has Elice for.  Either brainwash and train her to wield Falchion against Medeus or use her to create a warrior that can wield Falchion.

[Magical Glace]

Just now, The Geek said:

That's what he has Elice for.  Either brainwash and train her to wield Falchion against Medeus or use her to create a warrior that can wield Falchion.

Elice is a female though.

Only male relatives of Anri can use it, before Awakening messed that up and gave it to Lucina.  

That reminds me though, he did have Tiki as well.  

[The Geek]

36 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Elice is a female though.

See the second part of my statement.

[Aircalipoor]

34 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Elice is a female though.

->

39 minutes ago, The Geek said:

Either brainwash and train her to wield Falchion against Medeus or use her to create a warrior that can wield Falchion.

 

Unlike Gharnef, Medeus doesn't requieres a specific weapon to be beaten. Gotoh hints this, if you don't have the Falchion.

Lorewise, I can imagine that Gharnef just points out, that he and Medeus are in a stand-still situation. Neither one can easily hurt the other without taking a risk. I find it plausible, that both would try to kill each other, but currently they had to work together to take controll over the other countries.

[B.Leu]

I actually had to reread the post multiple time to get the undertone.

Where is it said that only guys descendant of Anri can use or wield Falchion by the way ? It seems weird, especially since Anri is 'just' Marth's ancestor uncle.

Eh, maybe he used it only as a potion with unlimited uses ! :p

Imhulu is specifically stated to grant it's user immunity to anything except Starlight, and Medeus is 'only' a dragon, so yeah, I suppose he could have.

[Extrasolar]

32 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Where is it said that only guys descendant of Anri can use or wield Falchion by the way ? It seems weird, especially since Anri is 'just' Marth's ancestor uncle.

It's never absolutely directly stated, but it can be inferred by everyone emphasizing Marth, and him being a son, as the last person able to wield it after Cornelius' death. Like in these from Shadow Dragon's Prologue chapters, copied directly from the script on this site:
 

Quote

Elice:
“Malledus. I am not suggesting. I am commanding. If something befalls Father, Marth will become the last person in the entire world worthy of wielding the Falchion. I want you to guide him, Malledus- even when the rest of us no longer can.”

 

Quote

Cain:
“His last words were as follows: “Tell my son that I leave the future of Altea and our continent in his hands. He must rise now where I have fallen. As Falchion’s rightful heir, he has been born into greatness…Now…he must be great.””

 

Quote

Malledus:
“In your veins flows the blood of a hero- the blood of Anri. You are a son of House Archanea, and sole heir to Falchion- our only hope of defeating
Medeus, Emperor of Doluna. Sire, were’t in my power, I would have you choose you own path…but I’m afraid your path has chosen you.

@Glaceon Mage Awakening is kind of weird having Lucina wield it if they're implying that only male descendants of Anri can wield it here in Shadow Dragon, but you could also take these as referring to the fact that Marth is the only one who can wield it because he's the only one of his family aside from Cornelius trained in using swords at all. Maybe Elice can't wield it because she's not a sword-fighter, rather than because she's a daughter. I don't know, but that seems the most reasonable explanation.

Naga doesn't seem to gender-lock weapons on principle. Naga's Book of Naga isn't gender locked, for example, because its first wielder was male, while Julia is female.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Dragrath]

44 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

It's never absolutely directly stated, but it can be inferred by everyone emphasizing Marth, and him being a son, as the last person able to wield it after Cornelius' death. Like in these from Shadow Dragon's Prologue chapters, copied directly from the script on this site:
 

 

 

@Glaceon Mage Awakening is kind of weird having Lucina wield it if they're implying that only male descendants of Anri can wield it here in Shadow Dragon, but you could also take these as referring to the fact that Marth is the only one who can wield it because he's the only one of his family aside from Cornelius trained in using swords at all. Maybe Elice can't wield it because she's not a sword-fighter, rather than because she's a daughter. I don't know, but that seems the most reasonable explanation.

Naga doesn't seem to gender-lock weapons on principle. Naga's Book of Naga isn't gender locked, for example, because its first wielder was male, while Julia is female.

I think it may be a cultural Bias i.e. the royal family saw women as being unfit for the role (as sexism in real royal lines was also quite extreme) I don't think there ever was a true gender lock only that culturally no female would be given an opportunity to even try to wield it. This is assuming multiple real world parallels as well as looking at the class choices for Royal Females which in these particular games were all magic users or mounted fliers(All of which are classes that can't use swords).

Edit: In fact with exception of Lucina who grew up under unusual circumstances the trend holds for Royals as well in Awakening's time I think it is a stereotype bias in universe (in Archanean Fe games at least it seems like there is a preconceived set of roles that are decisively male and female which had been maintained for thousands of years it probably would simply just be unthinkable for a female to be trained in the use of swords for most of that history only breaking down under unusual circumstances due to Chrom's seeming disregard for certain conventions

Edited March 18, 2017 by Dragrath

[HK Motendra]

4 hours ago, Aircalipoor said:

->

 

Unlike Gharnef, Medeus doesn't requires a specific weapon to be beaten. Gotoh hints this, if you don't have the Falchion.

Lorewise, I can imagine that Gharnef just points out, that he and Medeus are in a stand-still situation. Neither one can easily hurt the other without taking a risk. I find it plausible, that both would try to kill each other, but currently they had to work together to take controll over the other countries.

Actually, to clarify this point here,  what Gotoh does is have Marth retrieve a 2nd (weaker) Falchion in another dimension, where a sleeping Nagi (who is implied to be Naga) reawakens. That part of the story only occurs if you both fail to kill Gharnef (and as a result, retrieve Falchion) AND allow Tiki to die. Lore-wise, only the Divine Dragons could stand against the Earth Dragons, and Falchion, itself is made from Naga's fang, ergo its effectiveness.

Quote

Gotoh:
“I know you mean to challenge Medeus. But you and your companions haven’t the power to win.”

Marth:
“What? Why not? Because I failed to retrieve Falchion?”

Gotoh:
“You also failed to save the divine dragon girl.”

Marth:
“I did not mean for anything to happen to her-“

Gotoh:
“You can put your heart at ease. Tiki is not dead. She has merely returned to her slumber. Still, without her power, we must take other steps. Select a handful of your best warriors. I must send into an unseen dimension.”

Going back to your point. Lore-wise, there were only two possible ways to take on Medeus and actually win: the divine Falchion (that only Anri and his relatives could use (at the time)) OR the divine dragons themselves. While Gharnef couldn't wield Falchion, he DID have Tiki, who, at the time, was the last of the Divine Dragons, and Naga's child whose power was said to be SO great, that should she ever become wild, could destroy the world, and is why she is put to sleep.

Quote

Chapter 14: Mystery Revealed

Opening

The unexpected truth revealed by Xane took Marth by surprise.
Tiki was the daughter of the Divine Dragon King, Naga,
and was sleeping in the temple because the king so willed.
The Divine Dragon King's fear of Tiki's power was that of a loving parent.
Were Tiki to awaken, her dreadful hidden power would eventually destroy the world...
So thought the king.

Another point I want to bring up. Gharnef did have a " magical apparatus" that he drew power from, but we never had any idea of WHAT that power was and what it allows him to do: only that if they can't kill him, they instead destroy that, making him less of a threat to the continent, barring Imhullu's shadows.

Then again, APPARENTLY, dragons & manaketes are susceptible to magic (minus the Mage tribe, of course), and while I am unsure if this applies to Earth Dragons (and Medeus, by extension), but assuming the whole general fantasy mythos that "dragons are impervious to magic" doesn't apply to FE lore, theoretically, Gharnef could EVENTUALLY win against Medeus with just Imhullu, alone. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Motendra
Including in game quote

[Acacia Sgt]

I would think that those restrictions on the Falchion were lifted when Naga reforged the bond in the time of the First Exalt. I would agree it wouldn't be practical to have them in the first place, considering that you would kinda want to have the most amount possible of people capable of weilding 

Anyway...

8 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Then again, APPARENTLY, dragons & manaketes are susceptible to magic (minus the Mage tribe, of course), and while I am unsure if this applies to Earth Dragons (and Medeus, by extension), but assuming the whole general fantasy mythos that "dragons are impervious to magic" doesn't apply to FE lore, theoretically, Gharnef could EVENTUALLY win against Medeus with just Imhullu, alone. 

Well, in the original game, Medeus was immune to any ranged attack, courtesy of the Earthstone. I suppose this could've meant that Earth Dragons were immune to magic, but if I remember right, said restriction is no longer there in the remakes. On the other hand, back in the original game, you could also kill Medeus with the Mercurius, Gradivus, and Pachyderm ballistae, since they had the MT to overcome his high Def (assuming the character also had max Str). I suppose it could imply that enough brute force could also kill him? Don't know, that's just gameplay stuff separate from lore.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[HK Motendra]

27 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

 

Well, in the original game, Medeus was immune to any ranged attack, courtesy of the Earthstone. I suppose this could've meant that Earth Dragons were immune to magic, but if I remember right, said restriction is no longer there in the remakes. On the other hand, back in the original game, you could also kill Medeus with the Mercurius, Gradivus, and Pachyderm ballistae, since they had the MT to overcome his high Def (assuming the character also had max Str). I suppose it could imply that enough brute force could also kill him? Don't know, that's just gameplay stuff separate from lore.

OP was disregarding in-game stats, which I had only realized just after I posted and had to edit a part out on how someone actually beat endgame of NMotE by doing so. I don't remember where I saw this, and have yet to even test it out myself, but... apparently that's a thing. Didn't know that about the originals though. Interesting....

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Motendra said:

OP was disregarding in-game stats, which I had only realized just after I posted and had to edit a part out on how someone actually beat endgame of NMotE by doing so. I don't remember where I saw this, and have yet to even test it out myself, but... apparently that's a thing. Didn't know that about the originals though. Interesting....

Well, even disregarding stats I would think Medeus, at least the first time fighting him, is still beatable even without Tiki/Nagi or Falchion. Because even after his second revival, he's still an Earth Dragon, so just a "regular" manakete so to speak. And if you can take down other manakete types without Falchion or a Divine Dragon, then why not an Earth Dragon as well? It would certainly not be as easy, since Earth Dragons seem to be the most powerful tribe after the Divines, but not outright impossible, either.

[HK Motendra]

40 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, even disregarding stats I would think Medeus, at least the first time fighting him, is still beatable even without Tiki/Nagi or Falchion. Because even after his second revival, he's still an Earth Dragon, so just a "regular" manakete so to speak. And if you can take down other manakete types without Falchion or a Divine Dragon, then why not an Earth Dragon as well? It would certainly not be as easy, since Earth Dragons seem to be the most powerful tribe after the Divines, but not outright impossible, either.

Considering how within CH20 of NMotE (Idk if that also applies to the original) there is one lone Earth dragon present in the castle before reaching Hardin that IS beatable, I'd normally agree with you there. However, in Anri's time, when Medeus first waged war against humans, Duke Cartas more or less had Dolhr on the ropes, until Medeus, himself, entered the battlefield and all hope of winning was gone. That, is where Anri came into the picture and ended the war for him. I... forget which of the games states this, otherwise, I'd get the direct quote, but if that means anything, then... there ya go.

EDIT: While I'm unsure of the credibility of the wiki page, apparently, being able to take out an Earth Dragon with anti Dragon weapons only applies to New Mystery, and wasn't a thing in the original

Edited March 18, 2017 by Motendra
extra info

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Motendra said:

Considering how within CH20 of NMotE (Idk if that also applies to the original) there is one lone Earth dragon present in the castle before reaching Hardin that IS beatable, I'd normally agree with you there. However, in Anri's time, when Medeus first waged war against humans, Duke Cartas more or less had Dolhr on the ropes, until Medeus, himself, entered the battlefield and all hope of winning was gone. That, is where Anri came into the picture and ended the war for him. I... forget which of the games states this, otherwise, I'd get the direct quote, but if that means anything, then... there ya go.

Well, that would agree on the idea that Earth Dragons are above the other tribes but the Divines, since Medeus at the time was the only one around. And it would certainly agree on how things were in the original game, where only Falchion and Tiki could reliably hurt him (Tiki was certainly not an option back then), and select weapons could only hope to deal scratch-damage. Sometimes, gameplay will integrate with story, and I would think stuff like the immune to magic and bows in the original game was done for a reason. But well, hard to say at this point.

In any case, I would think Garnef could really beat Medeus if it had come to that. Not an easy feat and perhaps even coming off as a pyrric victory for him. Since Medeus's third revival relied on Garnef to begin with, it's not like Garnef would've neede to worry on that front, after killing him.

[RJWalker]

Only males being able to wield Falchion was a localisation only thing in FE11.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Falchion shouldnt be locked to descendant of Anri. That just doesnt made sense

Marth isnt a descendant of Anri. Hes the descendant of Marcellus. Anri died childless

Edited March 19, 2017 by JSND

[Dragrath]

9 hours ago, JSND said:

Falchion shouldnt be locked to descendant of Anri. That just doesnt made sense

Marth isnt a descendant of Anri. Hes the descendant of Marcellus. Anri died childless

Well besides the point it seems to be locked to genetic relatives (Siblings share 50% of DNA so the lock clearly seems to work for anyone who is biologically related to  Anri. Presumably there could even be "lost" branches that are related enough to use the weapon) It all really depends on how exactly the Dragon genetic locks work...

[Naglfar94]

On 3/18/2017 at 8:11 AM, Glaceon Mage said:

Medeus doesn't have Starlight, so I don't think he'd be able to beat Gharnef.

As far as I remember, it's specifically stated nothing besides that specific tome can get past Imhullu's protective magic.  

Though, Falchion wouldn't be able to help Gharnef much, considering he's 1. a mage and 2. not Altean royalty.

Hmm So not even Medeus would be able to hurt Gharnef then wow damn Imhullu is no joke I forgot where did he get that tome again? So Gharnef if there is no Starlight as I thought is immortal pretty much.

On 3/18/2017 at 9:00 AM, Aircalipoor said:

->

 

Unlike Gharnef, Medeus doesn't requieres a specific weapon to be beaten. Gotoh hints this, if you don't have the Falchion.

Lorewise, I can imagine that Gharnef just points out, that he and Medeus are in a stand-still situation. Neither one can easily hurt the other without taking a risk. I find it plausible, that both would try to kill each other, but currently they had to work together to take controll over the other countries.

You know that makes me think.. Gharnef and Medeus may not have really been on very good terms and simply worked together till they took control of Akaneia eventually afterwards I could see a split or falling out happening between the two had the succeeded and Marth lost the battle.

On 3/18/2017 at 1:50 PM, Dragrath said:

I think it may be a cultural Bias i.e. the royal family saw women as being unfit for the role (as sexism in real royal lines was also quite extreme) I don't think there ever was a true gender lock only that culturally no female would be given an opportunity to even try to wield it. This is assuming multiple real world parallels as well as looking at the class choices for Royal Females which in these particular games were all magic users or mounted fliers(All of which are classes that can't use swords).

Edit: In fact with exception of Lucina who grew up under unusual circumstances the trend holds for Royals as well in Awakening's time I think it is a stereotype bias in universe (in Archanean Fe games at least it seems like there is a preconceived set of roles that are decisively male and female which had been maintained for thousands of years it probably would simply just be unthinkable for a female to be trained in the use of swords for most of that history only breaking down under unusual circumstances due to Chrom's seeming disregard for certain conventions

Hmm but what about Midia though? She could use swords and such. And in FE1 and FE3 female units could use swords (if they were dismounted that is) But they could still use `em and in FE1 could use while mounted. Hmm now I forgot how it went in FE11 though. I think only Midia could use them in that game swords due to being paladin.

[Dragrath]

9 hours ago, Naglfar94 said:

Hmm So not even Medeus would be able to hurt Gharnef then wow damn Imhullu is no joke I forgot where did he get that tome again? So Gharnef if there is no Starlight as I thought is immortal pretty much.

You know that makes me think.. Gharnef and Medeus may not have really been on very good terms and simply worked together till they took control of Akaneia eventually afterwards I could see a split or falling out happening between the two had the succeeded and Marth lost the battle.

Hmm but what about Midia though? She could use swords and such. And in FE1 and FE3 female units could use swords (if they were dismounted that is) But they could still use `em and in FE1 could use while mounted. Hmm now I forgot how it went in FE11 though. I think only Midia could use them in that game swords due to being paladin.

AH I should specify that I was referring to the royal line she may be of nobility but she isn't a royal (particularly in this case it is even more specific as only  Altean royalty can use Falchion) Nobles are basically a social rank down as families given some privilege for past deeds by the Royal line. 

[HK Motendra]

9 hours ago, Naglfar94 said:

Hmm So not even Medeus would be able to hurt Gharnef then wow damn Imhullu is no joke I forgot where did he get that tome again? So Gharnef if there is no Starlight as I thought is immortal pretty much.

Imhullu was created from the Darksphere, which is the very thing that both corrupted and housed his soul to allow him to survive the War of Shadows. Like Imhullu, the one in possession of it cannot be harmed. The only thing that could counter the Darksphere was the LightSphere, which Starlight is made from both it and the Starsphere

[JJ48]

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 3:01 PM, Dragrath said:

Well besides the point it seems to be locked to genetic relatives (Siblings share 50% of DNA so the lock clearly seems to work for anyone who is biologically related to  Anri. Presumably there could even be "lost" branches that are related enough to use the weapon) It all really depends on how exactly the Dragon genetic locks work...

How long after Marth's time did Awakening take place?  With that many generations, it's conceivable that half your army could claim Marth as an ancestor and thus should be able to wield the Falchion.  Though, I guess that's not as mythic, from a narrative aspect.

[Dragrath]

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

How long after Marth's time did Awakening take place?  With that many generations, it's conceivable that half your army could claim Marth as an ancestor and thus should be able to wield the Falchion.  Though, I guess that's not as mythic, from a narrative aspect.

Oh indeed Though that depends on how the dragon locks actually function presumably there might be another requirement than just having ancestry from whatever figure I think the Jugdral weapons needed a certain amount of holy blood to accept the user so perhaps it has some additional check?