Jump to content

Which Prepromotes are better? FE6 or FE7


Harvey
 Share

Recommended Posts

On 3/27/2017 at 7:12 AM, Flee Fleet! said:

I just use Cecilia for staffbot work and occasionally killing some enemies with Aircalibur. I kind of find it fun to use her.

So, yeah, she's not really much of a bad unit.

Cecilia isn't entirely worthless, but she is the worst Magic user in the game, so why use her over Lugh, Lilina, Clarine or Hugh? Not to even mention Raigh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 55
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

3 minutes ago, Weeping__Dalek said:

Cecilia isn't entirely worthless, but she is the worst Magic user in the game, so why use her over Lugh, Lilina, Clarine or Hugh? Not to even mention Raigh

Cecilia also doesn't need a Guiding Ring, unlike the lot of them.  And those are quite the rarity in FE6.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Weeping__Dalek said:

Cecilia isn't entirely worthless, but she is the worst Magic user in the game, so why use her over Lugh, Lilina, Clarine or Hugh? Not to even mention Raigh

Eh, didn't say she was the best, but she can do some killing sometimes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Weeping__Dalek said:

Cecilia isn't entirely worthless, but she is the worst Magic user in the game, so why use her over Lugh, Lilina, Clarine or Hugh? Not to even mention Raigh

How is Cecilia the worst magic user in the game when Sophia exists? Not to mention, each of those you mentioned, sans Clarine, are worse than her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FE7, by far.  While the FE6 prepromotes are much more necessary IMO, they don't break the game as hard as FE7 Marcus with Speedwings (and that's before Pent shows up).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

How is Cecilia the worst magic user in the game when Sophia exists? Not to mention, each of those you mentioned, sans Clarine, are worse than her.

Lugh is still the better magic user than Cecilia because his earlygame is pretty good. And for the lategame his speed allows him to double stuff unlike her.
Cecilia, on the other hand, is the better stave user because she shows up with C rank. Lugh barely reaches it at the end of the game.
 

Quote

Cecilia isn't entirely worthless, but she is the worst Magic user in the game, so why use her over Lugh, Lilina, Clarine or Hugh? Not to even mention Raigh

This isn't true, neither referred to their magic stat, nor to their usefulness.
The unit with the worst magic stat at the end is Clarine actually.
As for usefulness Cecilia has bases, not great bases, but good enough to be slightly useful in combat.
Lilina's a walking target: Squishy and slow. Each enemy in the beginning will oneshot a / o double her. If you go to Sacae, she'll get wrecked by all the myrms and nomads.
Raigh's bases are abysmal for his level. He can't even do nosferatu-tanking because he'd get doubled by lots of enemies.
Hugh has ok bases, but he requires payment, A LOT of payment. And the reward for paying him is that you get an unit with almost no potential because his growths are absolutely garbage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

FE7, by far.  While the FE6 prepromotes are much more necessary IMO, they don't break the game as hard as FE7 Marcus with Speedwings (and that's before Pent shows up).

He's like Percival if Percival joined in Chapter 2 levels of ridiculous (I know their stats aren't equivalent but that's the best way I can think of to describe it).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

5 hours ago, eclipse said:

FE7, by far.  While the FE6 prepromotes are much more necessary IMO, they don't break the game as hard as FE7 Marcus with Speedwings (and that's before Pent shows up).

According to our very site, the first HM Speedwings is 25/27. Marcus is gonna go a longgg time without them. On NM, they come as early as 17/18, but NM is cake.

4 hours ago, Magillanica Lou Mayvin said:

Hugh has ok bases, but he requires payment, A LOT of payment. And the reward for paying him is that you get an unit with almost no potential because his growths are absolutely garbage.

20/20 Lugh:

HP 39  Mag 23.2  Skl 26  Spd 25  Lck 18.3  Def 10.7  Res 18.4

10k 20/20 Hugh:

HP 48  Mag 24.2  Skl 20.2  Spd 23.8  Lck 16 Def  15.8 Res  14.6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Hugh has one more magic. The extra bulkiness doesn't matter because Lugh higher evasion can equal it.
Yes, I have to admit I fucking hate Hugh. I prefer to steal his silver card from him and kill him instead to waste 10000 gold which is a better investment in status items. Also another issue for Hugh is that he joins late when most of your units should be promoted already.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hugh just seems like the middle mage to me, who has good speed and has good enough mag too, whereas Lilina usually has more Mag and Lugh is more speedy.

Then again, I only played FE6 once, so I could be wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/4/2017 at 6:53 PM, Just call me AL said:

How is Cecilia the worst magic user in the game when Sophia exists? Not to mention, each of those you mentioned, sans Clarine, are worse than her.

Just how exactly are they worse?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Just how exactly are they worse?

  • Lilina: Joins level 1 in early-midgame. With her bases she'll get doubled a / o oneshotted by most enemies. She has the highest magic growth in the game but her speed leaves to be desired. And with her low speed she hasn't the evasion to equal her awful defense.
  • Lugh: Definitely the best first tier mage because he joins in the hardest part of the game. Good enough to do nice damage to knights and draco knights. His magic is low but therefore possible double attacks can equal this issue. He can turn into a real dodgetank; can technically solo the dracos in chapter 21 on a peak. However a worse healer than Lilina due to his lower magic.
  • Raigh: Joins with abysmal bases (especially speed) for his level.
  • Hugh: Joins late with decent bases but this reuquires 10000 gold. At the end he's just a second Lugh, tankier but slower. Useless if you trained Lugh.

Note: None of these unit will reach the stave level Cecilia has when she joins. (Hugh joins even later than her)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Magillanica Lou Mayvin said:
  • Lilina: Joins level 1 in early-midgame. With her bases she'll get doubled a / o oneshotted by most enemies. She has the highest magic growth in the game but her speed leaves to be desired. And with her low speed she hasn't the evasion to equal her awful defense.
  • Lugh: Definitely the best first tier mage because he joins in the hardest part of the game. Good enough to do nice damage to knights and draco knights. His magic is low but therefore possible double attacks can equal this issue. He can turn into a real dodgetank; can technically solo the dracos in chapter 21 on a peak. However a worse healer than Lilina due to his lower magic.
  • Raigh: Joins with abysmal bases (especially speed) for his level.
  • Hugh: Joins late with decent bases but this reuquires 10000 gold. At the end he's just a second Lugh, tankier but slower. Useless if you trained Lugh.

Note: None of these unit will reach the stave level Cecilia has when she joins. (Hugh joins even later than her)

1. Still doesn't change the fact that Lillina is the strongest magic user you get though. It doesn't matter if Cecilia starts with A in amina  since she cannot use Forblaze unlike Lillina who can and that she is more likely valuable towards the end of the game. And if maxed out, can easily be a better healer than Cecilia.

2. I'd rather have a unit with good avoid and speed than having a horse rider who can't dodge as often as you like.

3. Same case as Lillina only that he can be fixed using body rings.

4. Hugh: Agree with the price..still arguably better than Cecilia in many ways.

To be fair at Cecilia, she does give support bonuses to Lillina so that's something I guess....

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

1. Still doesn't change the fact that Lillina is the strongest magic user you get though. It doesn't matter if Cecilia starts with A in amina  since she cannot use Forblaze unlike Lillina who can and that she is more likely valuable towards the end of the game. And if maxed out, can easily be a better healer than Cecilia.

Cecilia can use Forblaze as soon as she ranks up her anima (which Lilina has to do too), I don't know what alternate dimension you've been living in.

Lilina starts with an E in staves when she promotes, and staff rank growths are sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow in the GBA games.  She'll take ages to hit rank B for Physic.  That's a lot of effort.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

3. Same case as Lillina only that he can be fixed using body rings.

What do Body Rings have to do with this?  Those are a very valuable resource to boot.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

4. Hugh: Agree with the price..still arguably better than Cecilia in many ways.

Like...?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

1. Still doesn't change the fact that Lillina is the strongest magic user you get though. It doesn't matter if Cecilia starts with A in amina  since she cannot use Forblaze unlike Lillina who can and that she is more likely valuable towards the end of the game. And if maxed out, can easily be a better healer than Cecilia.

2. I'd rather have a unit with good avoid and speed than having a horse rider who can't dodge as often as you like.

3. Same case as Lillina only that he can be fixed using body rings.

4. Hugh: Agree with the price..still arguably better than Cecilia in many ways.

To be fair at Cecilia, she does give support bonuses to Lillina so that's something I guess....

 

1. She'll never get to a respectable staff rank, though, because this is FE6 and staff exp rises even more slowly than a Snorlax. Basically, you might as well forget about getting her to a respectable staff rank. Also, Lilina needs to raise her anima rank and promote to use Forblaze (and note the guiding ring shortage).

2. A 20/1 Lugh isn't THAT much better at dodgetanking than Cecilia is...

3. See 1. Also, body rings are contested.

4. If you're gonna say something like that and not back it up, you shouldn't be surprised if you're not taken seriously...

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

She'll never get to a respectable staff rank, though, because this is FE6 and staff exp rises even more slowly than a Snorlax. Basically, you might as well forget about getting her to a respectable staff rank. Also, Lilina needs to raise her anima rank and promote to use Forblaze (and note the guiding ring shortage)

 

29 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Cecilia can use Forblaze as soon as she ranks up her anima (which Lilina has to do too), I don't know what alternate dimension you've been living in.

Lilina starts with an E in staves when she promotes, and staff rank growths are sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow in the GBA games.  She'll take ages to hit rank B for Physic.  That's a lot of effort.

That's why I mentioned IF MAXED OUT, she's a better healer which is kinda possible to do if you arena abuse correct? I mean, why else would Tiana's staff show up?

9 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

A 20/1 Lugh isn't THAT much better at dodgetanking than Cecilia is...

In my playthrough, Lugh was just better than her in dodging. I don't know about others.

Its also important to note that the RNG is a bit screwed in FE6 so that also plays a factor here.

33 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

What do Body Rings have to do with this?  Those are a very valuable resource to boot.

The only few candidates that need body rings are Ogier, Echinda and Raigh though...pretty much everyone else has decent con.

As what it has to do with Cecilia low con? Ray can pretty much double and use powerful attacks and his speed is good enough that he won't get often doubled with the help of the body ring unlike Cecilia  who even when using body ring cannot help her chances of not being doubled.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Harvey said:

That's why I mentioned IF MAXED OUT, she's a better healer which is kinda possible to do if you arena abuse correct? I mean, why else would Tiana's staff show up?

And that takes FOREVER.  No thanks.  It's possible, but it's incredibly tedious to do and honestly not worth it.

 

59 minutes ago, Harvey said:

In my playthrough, Lugh was just better than her in dodging. I don't know about others.

Its also important to note that the RNG is a bit screwed in FE6 so that also plays a factor here.

RNG in FE6 is the same as RNG in FE7.  This is a known fact.  It's perfectly known an predictable.  Don't ever use that second statement as an argument if you want to be taken seriously.

Though, 20/1 Lugh has an average of 16.5 speed and 11.65 Luck, base Cecilia has 10 Speed and 10 Luck.  Meaning that Lugh at 20/1 is indeed the better dodger of the two, having ~13-16 avoid on her which can be significant because of True Hit.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

The only few candidates that need body rings are Ogier, Echinda and Raigh though...pretty much everyone else has decent con.

As what it has to do with Cecilia low con? Ray can pretty much double and use powerful attacks and his speed is good enough that he won't get often doubled with the help of the body ring unlike Cecilia  who even when using body ring cannot help her chances of not being doubled.

Pegasi?  Most female characters?  Roy?  Young characters?

Raigh doubling won't happen for a while, not helped by dark tomes being heavy compared to the feathers that are Anima and Light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

1. Still doesn't change the fact that Lillina is the strongest magic user you get though. It doesn't matter if Cecilia starts with A in amina  since she cannot use Forblaze unlike Lillina who can and that she is more likely valuable towards the end of the game. And if maxed out, can easily be a better healer than Cecilia.
Yeah, she's the strongest mage but still she does less damage than Lugh in total because he can double attack. Lilina is the better healer but not better stave user than Cecilia. Cecilia can restore and use barrier already and only needs one level to reach B to use rescue unlike Lilina who needs three.

2. I'd rather have a unit with good avoid and speed than having a horse rider who can't dodge as often as you like.
Well yes, Lugh is definitely the better combat unit.

3. Same case as Lillina only that he can be fixed using body rings.
You mean using a body ring to use nosferatu without AS penalty? Well, it lowers the number of enemies which can double him, but some prepromoted enemies can still double => ORKO him and nosferatu's accuracy is still not best.

4. Hugh: Agree with the price..still arguably better than Cecilia in many ways.
In how many ways exactly? Yeah, if you really baby Hugh he will have better stats and become a better magic user than Cecilia because she's a prepromote. As for stave user he won't reach D most likely.

Quote

The only few candidates that need body rings are Ogier, Echinda and Raigh though...pretty much everyone else has decent con.

  • Roy could benefit by one to use killing edges without AS penalty
  • Tate to use iron lances
Edited by Magillanica Lou Mayvin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

 

That's why I mentioned IF MAXED OUT, she's a better healer which is kinda possible to do if you arena abuse correct? I mean, why else would Tiana's staff show up?

In my playthrough, Lugh was just better than her in dodging. I don't know about others.

Its also important to note that the RNG is a bit screwed in FE6 so that also plays a factor here.

The only few candidates that need body rings are Ogier, Echinda and Raigh though...pretty much everyone else has decent con.

As what it has to do with Cecilia low con? Ray can pretty much double and use powerful attacks and his speed is good enough that he won't get often doubled with the help of the body ring unlike Cecilia  who even when using body ring cannot help her chances of not being doubled.

 

And you don't see a problem with that? I mean, FFS, it takes 50 uses of a staff to get up one rank. You might as well forget about having her able to use the likes of Restore, much less Physic.

He has better avoid as I said earlier, but he isn't exactly the king of avoid tanking...

Why do you bring that up? That's been busted before. 

Glace already listed other units that could want a body ring, so I don't have much else to say, except for there only being one body ring in the game (for most of it, at least).

Maybe on Normal, but I wouldn't expect Raigh to double any time soon on hard mode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

 Don't ever use that second statement as an argument if you want to be taken seriously.

I was referring to how the hit-rate for the weapons is lower than FE7, while the critical bonus for swordmasters and berserkers is much higher. 

And while the RNG in FE7 is the same as the one in FE6, FE7 is a bit more polished in terms of the hit rate system..it could have been worse.

19 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Cecilia can use Forblaze as soon as she ranks up her anima (which Lilina has to do too), I don't know what alternate dimension you've been living in.

Lilina starts with an E in staves when she promotes, and staff rank growths are sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow in the GBA games.  She'll take ages to hit rank B for Physic.  That's a lot of effort.

Again, I said that if effort is made whether its tedious or not, she's a good healer. Someone will do it for that reason. The same as those who find babying Nino or Karla interesting enough to do as pointless as they are.

As for Cecilla, she may be serviceable but other units beat her by a crapton. Lillina starts earlier and the later starts at a time where a lot of your units are better than her. And even if Lillina is outclassed by her, Yoder and Niime(who are prepromotes btw) are better stave users compared to her.

Other points are valid so I won't argue there.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, Yodel and Niime are better staffers than Cecilia, with the only exception of Cecilia's higher movement. But Niime doesn't join before chapter 19/20 (depending on the route), so that's seven or eight chapters (14-18/19 plus two gaidens) without her.

39 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Again, I said that if effort is made whether its tedious or not, she's a good healer. Someone will do it for that reason. The same as those who find babying Nino or Karla interesting enough to do as pointless as they are.

Well, I like babying Nino, but I would never call her a good unit, just a fun one. ;) Also, leveling up healers is yet another can of worms since staff XP is very limited in the GBA games. I would probably use L'Arachel in every playthrough if she had any kind of offense before promotion, but as is, she almost always instantly hits the bench.

I think you might overrate unit potential compared to their initial strengths and weaknesses quite a bit. Yes, Lilina with S rank staves is the 4th-best healer in the game (druids with capped magic and Apocalypse would still outmagic her), but as Glace and Levant already said - it's incredibly tedious to get her to that point. Her start as a healer isn't nearly as impressive since units with a higher staff rank can mitigate her Mag advantage quite a bit (or even turn it around) by using Mend staves instead of basic Heals. C rank also means that Cecilia can use both Restore (increasingly important as the game progresses) and Barrier (if only to get to Physic a little faster), so while Lilina will take the lead in raw HP healed, she would still need another 50 heals to match Cecilia and your promoted Saul/Elen/Clarine in terms of utility.

And one important thing: Cecilia needs literally zero investment to function. You can just slap her on your team, knowing that she'll probably be replaced by Niime later, and use her as your secondary staffer and occasional chip damager. While it is usually a good move to have two healers on the team, actively training a second one would just delay the process. If you're willing to spend hours just arena abusing, that's fine, but for any player who doesn't want to bother with it, Cecilia is a very useful addition to the team when she arrives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, ping said:

Yeah, Yodel and Niime are better staffers than Cecilia, with the only exception of Cecilia's higher movement. But Niime doesn't join before chapter 19/20 (depending on the route), so that's seven or eight chapters (14-18/19 plus two gaidens) without her.

And is it possible to get her rank to S? Is it even worth doing that when you have Clarine who's just better than her in pretty much everything besides not being a prepromote?

Not to mention that her using A anima is also pointless due to her poor magic. To each its own but for those bashing on her, they have every reason to do so since she is joined on a desert chapter that hinders her movement, her aircalibur being pointless that you might as well give it to someone like either Lugh or Lillina who can make better use of it and that they join at better times unlike her so they will be able to use B weapons by then.

Like I said earlier, the only good benefit about her is her support bonuses. To each its own maybe but to those who find her lame have every reason to find her lame including me since this is FE we're talking about where people will bash units that they don't find either fun to use or don't find them a place in their strategies.

14 minutes ago, ping said:

Well, I like babying Nino, but I would never call her a good unit, just a fun one. ;) Also, leveling up healers is yet another can of worms since staff XP is very limited in the GBA games. I would probably use L'Arachel in every playthrough if she had any kind of offense before promotion, but as is, she almost always instantly hits the bench

Odd how you find levelling Nino fun but don't find that fun factor raising healers...

15 minutes ago, ping said:

I think you might overrate unit potential compared to their initial strengths and weaknesses quite a bit. Yes, Lilina with S rank staves is the 4th-best healer in the game (druids with capped magic and Apocalypse would still outmagic her), but as Glace and Levant already said - it's incredibly tedious to get her to that point. Her start as a healer isn't nearly as impressive since units with a higher staff rank can mitigate her Mag advantage quite a bit (or even turn it around) by using Mend staves instead of basic Heals. C rank also means that Cecilia can use both Restore (increasingly important as the game progresses) and Barrier (if only to get to Physic a little faster), so while Lilina will take the lead in raw HP healed, she would still need another 50 heals to match Cecilia and your promoted Saul/Elen/Clarine in terms of utility

So what? The option is there for those who want to do it and I'd rather do that and put up with a healer who joins at the wrong time.

19 minutes ago, ping said:

And one important thing: Cecilia needs literally zero investment to function.

Doesn't matter since she joins at the wrong time like I said before. The timing of units also plays a role here and if seeing her join in a wrong time where you most likely will have a better healer(which is clarine btw), there's very little reason for her to exist except for support reasons.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Odd how you find levelling Nino fun but don't find that fun factor raising healers...

Nino can earn more than 12 XP per action. :rolleyes: And again, I do not claim that Nino is a good unit in any way.

9 minutes ago, Harvey said:

And is it possible to get her rank to S? Is it even worth doing that when you have Clarine who's just better than her in pretty much everything besides not being a prepromote?

What is even your point about the S rank? Of course Cecilia won't reach S staves, but she can reach B rank for Physic and Rescue somewhat quickly. And even if she doesn't - Cecilia --

32 minutes ago, ping said:

Cecilia needs literally zero investment to function.

-- oh, I already went over it. She does her job perfectly fine even without it.

Cecilia does not join at the wrong time. She will be a clear upgrade to your secondary healer, even if you have spend 10 hours arena abusing, because you can't get your second Guiding Ring before chapter 14. And

36 minutes ago, ping said:

If you're willing to spend hours just arena abusing, that's fine, but for any player who doesn't want to bother with it, Cecilia is a very useful addition to the team when she arrives.

again, if you like spending hours of time grinding, that's fine, but I refuse to ignore that requirement when judging a character.

(And since I suspect that you're referring to Cecilia joining in the desert map: It's not as bad as you tend to describe it. 2 movement sucks, but it's the same as it is for unpromoted foot units, e.g. Roy. In addition, Cecilia can move after rescuing/... and has rather high Aid and low Con, so she can still help out quite nicely in rescue/dropping to get through the sand quicker)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, ping said:

Nino can earn more than 12 XP per action. :rolleyes: And again, I do not claim that Nino is a good unit in any way.

I hardly mentioned Nino being a good unit or not. Like I said, I find it odd that you have fun levelling her but not healers...

20 minutes ago, ping said:

What is even your point about the S rank? Of course Cecilia won't reach S staves, but she can reach B rank for Physic and Rescue somewhat quickly. And even if she doesn't

Still means nothing when her skill is low as well as magic. Might as well hold those staves till you get Niime.

Yeah I get that some prefer it that way and to each its own like I said earlier. I just said that for those who find her difficult, they have EVERY reason to bash her for that.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...