Colonel M

FE6 Tier List - Redux

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Greetings. You may know me as esteemed Tyrant Colonel M. I have been lurking the forums for a little while and also have been posting a little bit.

Recently I was looking at the this thread and it made me re-consider how the FE6 Tier List hasn't really been updated in a long time. For the short-hand version: I think that the tier list isn't too shabby, but could use some improvement. This topic, by the way, is not to detract from the current "Let's make a tier list" thread. In fact, I heavily encourage users continue to post in there as it helps gauge opinions overall.

Link to old tier list

Basically what I have decided is to re-do the tier list to a point. The rules I will place in the spoiler tag below the tier list. I realize a lot of the higher ups like Gwympage have went to Reddit and some like Red Fox of Fire have since likely retired; however, I figured that I could still post this and maybe finalize everything within it or settle old scores.

The tier list assumes both routes. No route is favored over the other.

-Top Tier-
Miledy
Marcus
Rutger
Percival
Lalum
Elphin

-High Tier-
Saul
Shanna
Shin
Niime
Alan
Lance
Zealot
Tate
Astor

-Upper Mid-
Zeiss
Noah
Deke
Yodel
Cecilia
Clarine
Klein
Sue
Echidna
Igrene
Ellen

-Mid-
Fir
Bartre
Roy
Lugh
Chad
Fae
Lot
Treck

-Lower Mid-
Gonzalez
Garret
Lilina
Cath
Raigh
Oujay

-Low Tier-
Dayan
Juno
Wolt
Dorothy
Karel
Ward
Geese
Hugh
Douglas
Bors

-Utter Shit-
Barth
Sophia

-The Worst Character in Fire Emblem History-
Wendy

Spoiler

(These are being looked over atm)

"Ranks Are Irrelevant in This List"

This is the "Efficiency" Tier List. This tier list does not abide by the requirements of the in-game ranks given to us. For the FE6 Ranked Tier list, please see This Thread.

Efficiency - "accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort."

This is merely stating that we are assuming that we are not wasting time in these chapters. By "jobs" this could mean from seizing the throne, luring in units, killing units, "chapter requirements" (in example getting all of the villages, recruiting a character). Perhaps the best way to state this is that we are not "blitzkreiging" through the game, but at the same time we are not wasting time using the arena, etc.

"When Presenting an Argument, Remember to Provide Evidence"

I never thought I'd see the day when I need to say this, but it's something that I need to address. When you are making an argument that you seriously want to be changed (as in not hinting but insinuating that I change a position of one or two characters), you must present an argument. This argument should include:

- What the character does before the second character joins. How they contribute positively or negatively to efficiency before the other unit joins.
- A side-by-side comparison between the two characters when they are together.
- How the units do against the enemy, offensively and defensively.
- Supports, if they are practical. It is generally assumed that Upper Mids on up are usually considered "valid" to argue on a character. There are exceptions, such as Marcus and Zealot, who are likely dropped when their positives aren't as profound or they are starting to become a negative to the team. You can assume if a Lower Mid support is possible, but keep in mind that it shouldn't be the crux of your argument.
- Obviuosly later comparisons between the two characters.
- If it is a utility unit vs. a long term unit, assume the following scenario. Who's wins are more profound: the utility unit's or the long term unit. For example, would Zealot's contributions from C7 - 13 outweigh Lugh's entire existance.
- Any way to find a tie breaker. Offensive vs. Defensive doesn't really count as a tie breaker. You can use other examples, such as a unit's earlygame contributions or how a unit's profound durability outweighs the unit's offensive advantages. Most of the time tiebreakers are rarely needed.
- Just keep in mind that you are not sandbagging the other unit in question. If you are giving your unit a stat booster or something valuable of the sort, remember to state the opportunity cost and such with said resource. Nothing is free in this game.

Remember that your comparisons should have what is generally found in an argument. Statistics are very important when discussing two characters. For example, stating "Lot has Avoid problems" without backing up the statement will make me leave your argument in question. Saying "Lot's 20 Avoid is not that great. Using the Fighter here, it has 70% Displayed, 82.30% True" will help me become more convinced with your argument. Also please use other statistics such as "Chance of Death" or "Chances to Crit in One of Two Hits" in your arguments. Anything to help show the advantages of the two characters and who stands out a little more. Also, saying a statement such as "OJ is comparable to Dieck" in a OJ vs. Bartre debate is irrelevant to the point. We value who's doing better between the two in this scenario, not who compares best with the team. We outline the unit's positives and compare it with their negatives, which has the least opportunity cost when being used, and finally who creates more of a positive for efficiency's sake.

"When Arguing With Units, You Are to Assume The Unit Is Being Used"

This is to delete the recruitment costs of a unit to prevent sandbagging certain units from their more correct tier placements. This statement also promises that the unit will be used throughout the entire game or, in utility unit's cases, until either their positives are less profound or they become a negative to the team. I will not assume that a Unit will be used in Gaiden Chapters; however, due to the restrained deployment slots in most, if not all of them. A unit that is forced is considered a positive under most circumstances with the rare occassion that they make the Chapter(s) completely inefficient. For example, while Ward is considered a positive throughout his earlygame chapters due to what amount of damage counts, units such as Wendy can have profound negatives because they have major negatives that outweigh their minor positives. This is also to prevent auto-toping Roy due to not taking up a unit slot.

"No Arena Abusing"

This should be rather obvious with the Efficiency defitnition, but we are not assuming Arena Abuse. 20/1 Dieck by Chapter 8 is an automatic toss-out.

"The Tier Player Is Not Considered 100% Perfect; However..."

...This does not give the person the freedom to assume things such as "we're getting our healers attacked". Efficiency still has a "cost", which can not only mean time, but also life. A unit that is considered a liability defensively should still be duly noted. We are not, however, assuming stupid tactics such as "what if" situations. The general thoughts through a Tier Player's Mind is:

- What he / she can accomplish this turn
- Who can accomplish said tasks with minimal risks
- Protection of certain units (healers and dancers in particular)
- Who can effectively clear the enemies that are within range
- Who can survive on the Enemy Phase

Etc. It follows mostly to Interceptor's idea that the Tier Player is pefect, but what I am insinuating is that you don't get an auto-pass on being weak durably. There is still an opportunity cost within that unit. While Offense should still be recognized, Defense should as well.

"Availability is a Major Factor Concerning a Character's Use of Powerful Weapons and Stat Boosters"

Pretty self explanatory. Characters with excellent availability on powerful weapons or stat boosters, even if they have to share them, are weighed more favorably than those that come after the weapon or stat booster exists.

"Two Characters Competing For a Promotional Item Are Compared as Having Gotten it For Stat Comparison"

This doesn't negate opportunity cost for taking the Promotional Item if a character is being compared to a pre-promote, especially if there is large competition where a significant number of characters win in stats.

"All Chapters, Including Gaidens, Are Assumed"

Pretty self-explainatory.

"Other Information"

BEFORE ARGUING, PLEASE READ - Vykan's Tier List FAQ

General FE6 Info
True Hit

I also have a few other formulas that I did / asked around for. These might be useful for other characters that you're arguing with, so I'll put them here.

"Chance of Double Crit"

Assume that a unit has a 55% chance to Crit in one hit. The formula would be just multiplying it twice. .55 % .55 = .30. So a unit with 55% Crit would have about a 30% chance to land two criticals in one round.

"Chance of Single Crit"

The formula is taking the Crit rate as a decimal and subtracting it from 1.0. So, for example, a 46% Crit would display as 54% chance to not Crit. Now multiply that value twice (.54 * .54 = 29.16%). Now subtract the result from 100 again. (100 - 29.16 = 70.84%). Therefore a unit that doubles and has a 46% chance to crit has a 70.84% chance to crit in at least one of the two hits.

"Chance to Crit + Hit"

This is useful for units that are a little inaccurate but still wield something like a Killer Weapon. Simply take the True Hit and multiply it by the chance to Crit. For example, a unit with 88% Chance to Hit and 46% Crit would have a .88 * .46 = 40% chance to Critical and Hit the unit. This can "usually" be assumed as a "Chance of Death" if the unit is 3HKOing the enemy.

Feel free to add any more calculations if you'd like. I'd appreciate it, and I'm pretty sure the other people within the lists would as well.

Oh and one more thing:

"Be Nice Kiddies"

This is the internet. I understand that people can instigate others to get mad at their statements, but don't take everything seriously. This doesn't give the person the right to instigate either. Alert me or a mod if you have any problems with this and we'll try to address the situation to the best of our abilities. Despite the bitterness between the parties, it's not that difficult to get along so long as we hold back our elitism towards each other.

 

Edited by Colonel M

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Reserved post as I will be detailing some changes that I made on the side.

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Reikken's website is giving me some sort of error.

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Just now, eclipse said:

Reikken's website is giving me some sort of error.

He might've purged it. The website was from years ago. I'll remove it for now or dig around for it in the meantime.

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What was the deal with Miledy & Percival being so high, in spite of their availability? Don't they appear at the later half of the game?

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30 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

What was the deal with Miledy & Percival being so high, in spite of their availability? Don't they appear at the later half of the game?

Their bases make up for their join time.

 

Woah. Marcus, Niime, Astore, and Zealot are WAY too high. Same for Yodel and Cecilia.  Lilina should be above Treck. Dayan isn't better than Wolt. Geese should be higher. Bartre needs to go WAYYYYY down.

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Mostly seems good!  A few querries (not necessarily objections, just because I'm not sure where you're coming from):

-Why is Tate above Allan/Lance/Zealot?  I feel like they have more unique contributions than a third tier flier.

-Similarly, Astohl seems a little high.  I know he can steal things and has pretty good combat for a while, but a lot of his contributions can still be replicated by Chad (I don't disagree with Chad's placement, but being a better Chad doesn't strike me as something that should put Astohl so high up).

-Sue seems fairly underrated.  I agree Shin is better than her but keep in mind that she can mostly do what Shin does as well, AND with a better bow rank to boot (actually, it's the same rank, but she has several chapters on him).

-Lott should be in the same tier or one higher than Ward (but not by a huge amount of positions).  He's noticeably better for sure, but it's nothing ridiculous.

-Oujay seems a bit high but admittedly I've never used him so I'm unsure as to what exactly his contributions would be.

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42 minutes ago, Colonel M said:

Red Fox of Fire

Who's this?

Hehe, "retired." I never thought of it like that, but I did eventually get over it, partially because of how my own ideas about how to rate units have changed.

Unfortunately, as a result of both the above and me just not being that interested in FE6 in the first place, I don't think I'll be participating here, but if enough interest is shown here, I have been throwing around ideas for a FE7 ranked tier list in my head that I wouldn't mind putting down.

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i've never understood the huge gap between alan/lance and percival.

Percival is awesome and stuff but Alan and Lance are basically the same unit by the time he shows up and can easily use durandal if you really want them too.  

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3 hours ago, Soul~! said:

What was the deal with Miledy & Percival being so high, in spite of their availability? Don't they appear at the later half of the game?

Fliers are great, Miledy has amazing bases, Zeiss has a sick strength base with lot of room to growth due to his low level and Percy has sick bases and weapon levels.
Miledy is like Jill only with less availibility but therefore less requirement of becoming fantastic.
 

Looks quite plausible to me. The only things I find a bit questionable are:

  • Astore + Tate > Alance
  • I would put Dieck one tier higher due to his great early game.
Edited by Magillanica Lou Mayvin

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Just now, Magillanica Lou Mayvin said:

Astore > Alance

  • Tate > Alance + Zealot

dafuk dude

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-Top Tier-
Miledy
Marcus
Percival
Rutger
Lalum
Elphin

Suggested changes

Spoiler

-Top Tier-
Miledy
Marcus
Rutger
Percival
Lalum
Elphin

Percival's contributions are a lot easier to replicate than Rutger's, especially since the point of the game he's dominant in is not lacking in powerful units. Percival is also not available for nearly as long, nor does he fly.

-High Tier-
Saul
Shanna
Shin
Niime
Tate
Astor
Alan
Lance
Zealot

Suggested changes

Spoiler

-High Tier-
Saul
Shanna
Shin
Niime
Zealot/Tate/Alan/Lance
Astor

Slashed Zealot, Tate and the Cavs together because they're basically all about the same; Tate flies but she's effectiveely the third flier so diminishing returns kick in + availability and only passable combat, Alance are mostly self improving whilst Marcus and Rutger carry till they promote, Zealot doesn't have as good availability but comes with the same bases and ranks to fill in no matter what and is pretty competant combat wise till like Chapter 19I. Astor dropped because Chest Keys and Door Keys are really abundant, he does not deserve to be above these other units who have better combat and utility than he does.

-Upper Mid-
Zeiss
Noah
Deke
Yodel
Cecilia
Clarine
Klein
Sue
Echidna
Igrene
Ellen

Suggested changes

Spoiler

-Upper Mid-
Zeiss
Deke
Yodel
Cecilia
Clarine
Klein
Noah/Sue
Echidna
Igrene

Ellen

Noah was too high. I agree with bumping him and Sue up a bit but over Deke? Sorry man, that's whaaack. Deke's availability and earlygame clutch outweighs Noah's role as a tertiary Paladin by a decent amount, and Deke has solid potential if he gets the first Hero Crest too. Like, I get that Noah is statistically not that far behind Alan if you compare it favorably for him, but really, one of the Cavs can easily have a notable EXP lead on him so it's not quite as close as one might want to think, and Noah has pretty blagh lategame prospects compared to the Christmas Cavs.

I think Klein is ever so slightly better than Noah or Sue because of his immediate slotability into just about any team comp, along with not costing a promotion item which saves money for Boots, which is maybe my prepromote bias showing.

Echidna above Igrene is fair I think given Igrene needs to work on her Bow Rank to reach A, and can't realistically get to S in efficiency. Her bases don't really offer a significant advantage over Klein since the two of them tend to use the Brave Bow anyway, just Igrene can double a few things with a Killer Bow for a chance of an ORKO instead.

-Mid-
Fir
Bartre
Roy
Lugh
Chad
Fae
Lot
Treck

Suggested changes

Spoiler

-Mid-
Bartre
Fir

Lugh
Lot

Roy
Chad
Treck
Fae

Bartre doesn't cost a promotion item so he cinches it over Fir (both are a bit superfluous though), Roy doesn't really have enough going for him to be over Lugh and Lot. Lugh has pretty much the same clutch as Roy early on and can actually reach strong status if trained, Lot has less clutch but is overall more solid across the board and is arguably the most average character in the game. Treck should be over Fae because we're basically weighting utility and he has more availability.

-Lower Mid-
Gonzalez
Garret
Lilina
Cath
Raigh
Oujay

Suggested changes

Spoiler

-Lower Mid-
Garret
Lilina
Gonzalez

Cath
Raigh
Oujay

Garret has heaps better accuracy than Gonzalez and doesn't cost a promotion item (gee this is a running trend). Gonzalez does not have a significant speed lead over Garret to the point where he doubles things Garret doesn't without being invested in significantly or promoted, but this in itself is awkward due to how I've noted in the other thread that he can't be rescued by nearly any mount if he promotes. Both are basically banking on a crit to kill things and will likely never use anything but a Killer Axe so Garret's axe rank is irrelevant.

-Low Tier-
Dayan
Juno
Wolt
Dorothy
Karel
Ward
Geese
Hugh
Douglas
Bors

Suggested changes - bump Hugh above Geese because even minimum stats Hugh is still in a better class with better weapons with okay bulk.

 

1 hour ago, General Horace said:

i've never understood the huge gap between alan/lance and percival.

Percival is awesome and stuff but Alan and Lance are basically the same unit by the time he shows up and can easily use durandal if you really want them too.  

That's a bit of an exaggeration, Alance statistically are like 3 to 5 points behind him offensively and do not have nearly as good weapon ranks. A in one of Lances or Swords is doable (A in swords is kinda ass to get tbh), but it's at detriment to the other, and they're not packing C Axes either. Percival also has a gigantic bulk lead, especially in resistance. He's also RNG proof.

Edited by Irysa

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I agree with Rutger>Percival. Percival is better in pretty much every chapter after he joins, but this is less important than the reliability+turns saved of what Rutger does before Percival joins IMO. I think the dancers might be better than him too- Percival is a good unit and all but I think Miledy ends up overshadowing him a lot.

Noah seems kinda high. On an average run, Alan and Lance will both outclass him upon Noah's jointime and Noah's offensive growths are the lowest of the three. We don't have enough Knight's Crests to promote them all immediately, so odds are on a given run Noah will be unpromoted and without a promotion his stats are pretty meh offensively. I think in most cases I'd rather have a unit like Cecilia with 1 more Mov+ staff utility+ anima tome stuff than mediocre combat. Noah's value does go up if we don't use Alance or they both get screwed I suppose.

I kinda think Zeiss>Tate because his durability allows him to engage a lot more enemies which is important for maximizing flight utility, but I'm not sure who would move where.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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I think Tate is much much too high, even with HM bonuses she's rather unimpressive.

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Irysa saw this and then I told him on Discord I wouldn't respond until after he posted.

6 hours ago, Soul~! said:

What was the deal with Miledy & Percival being so high, in spite of their availability? Don't they appear at the later half of the game?

Magillanica Lou Mayvin covered it pretty well honestly.

6 hours ago, Refa said:

Mostly seems good!  A few querries (not necessarily objections, just because I'm not sure where you're coming from):

-Why is Tate above Allan/Lance/Zealot?  I feel like they have more unique contributions than a third tier flier.

-Similarly, Astohl seems a little high.  I know he can steal things and has pretty good combat for a while, but a lot of his contributions can still be replicated by Chad (I don't disagree with Chad's placement, but being a better Chad doesn't strike me as something that should put Astohl so high up).

-Sue seems fairly underrated.  I agree Shin is better than her but keep in mind that she can mostly do what Shin does as well, AND with a better bow rank to boot (actually, it's the same rank, but she has several chapters on him).

-Lott should be in the same tier or one higher than Ward (but not by a huge amount of positions).  He's noticeably better for sure, but it's nothing ridiculous.

-Oujay seems a bit high but admittedly I've never used him so I'm unsure as to what exactly his contributions would be.

I'll address the Tate issue more in a moment with Irysa's post.

I do agree Asthol is a bit too high. I think the main reason I put him there above Alan and Lance is because they both require funneling, and there could be argued a rather large cost of not being able to funnel Shanna. Still, Alan or Lance trained is very good so they need to be re-represented properly.

Sue's biggest issues lie in that she really requires some funneling. What helps is she's useful in Chapters 7 and 8 while being forcefully deployed in 9. The issue is Sue still needs to be shoveled kills and she desperately needs C Bows. I think her ranking is pretty fine honestly, I don't see where she should suddenly skyrocket against

Lott is kind of meh I admit, but I think he's better than some people give credit to. Probably could drop a bit, but I don't think by a lot honestly. Lot has more usable bases from the getgo in comparison to Ward. To compare Ward loses 2 AS in comparison to Lot's 3 when using Hammer. Ward has 3 AS. Lot has 4. Some AKs do have 0 Speed too. It is rare, but there are also instances where AKs that have 2 AS and Wade never doubles those either.

Oujay could probably drop below Juno and Dayan. Outside of that, it gets really shaky since we're looking at super extremes as to why to use a unit over another.

4 hours ago, General Horace said:

i've never understood the huge gap between alan/lance and percival.

Percival is awesome and stuff but Alan and Lance are basically the same unit by the time he shows up and can easily use durandal if you really want them too.  

Although Irysa mentioned this, it's really helpful that Percival is a lot more RNG-proof per se and has more workable weapon ranks. C Axes, for example, gives Killer Axes which are nice against some units. He never has to purposely touch Axes just to use Hammers, either, whereas Alan and Lance have to force themselves to use it once. He needs so much less grinding to use Durandal too.

3 hours ago, Magillanica Lou Mayvin said:

Fliers are great, Miledy has amazing bases, Zeiss has a sick strength base with lot of room to growth due to his low level and Percy has sick bases and weapon levels.
Miledy is like Jill only with less availibility but therefore less requirement of becoming fantastic.
 

Looks quite plausible to me. The only things I find a bit questionable are:

  • Astore + Tate > Alance
  • I would put Dieck one tier higher due to his great early game.

Deke going up a tier is something that's always discussed from time to time. I think the stopping plug is that Deke is an above average foot unit - while great, it's not something that screams awesome either. He has some things going for him and it's worth looking into some comparisons for him at the least. I'll state that I'm open to the idea, but I think there will need to be a lot to argue for Deke in comparison to some of the units in the same tier.

Quote

Percival's contributions are a lot easier to replicate than Rutger's, especially since the point of the game he's dominant in is not lacking in powerful units. Percival is also not available for nearly as long, nor does he fly.

I'll explain why I put Percival above Rutger.

Percival's contributions, though they can be replicated by a trained Alan or Lance, are still difficult to replicate in a sense. Percival just has very solid base stats at the start (including weapon rank). Percival can contribute quite a bit from when Marcus passes the baton as shown in many of dondon's playthroughs. Such examples are:

- Being one of the better killers for Zephiel since he has a faster access to Durandal and has much better combat parameters.

- Clear through Dragons in the latter chapters with said Durandal as well.

- Durable enough to live through quite a few brutal encounters.

I get that Rutger is really big in earlygame, but the problem that I have with Rutger is that his bosskilling at times can be replicated in a few instances or is inferior to things like Armorslayer Marcus / Zealot. Basically Rutger is best against units that he can double and Marcus / Zealot are iffy to fight against. The few that pop to mind are Dory (which Rutger has realistic death chances against too, but he's obviously better), Henning, some of the monsters bosses in Western Isles, and a few others. Another potential nick against Rutger is that, though it requires training, you could also argue that Deke or Fir could potentially duplicate the bosskilling in some instances. For Deke this is a lot harder, but there are instances where he flat out kills things better with his higher Strength stat if he can hit S Swords and Fir isn't the worst to train in Western Isles.

Here's basically how I viewed Percival vs Rutger.

- Rutger is definitely one of the best earlygame units. I feel that his contributions are large in his bosskilling and a few instances where the army is objectively weaker, but even by the time you hit instances like Western Isles it's likely a Paladin stormfest with the occasion of borrowing Rutger to kill the boss.

- Percival has very solid stats and weapon rank upon jointime, takes very little funneling to really be a high functioning unit, and is rather difficult to completely copy with something like a trained Alan or Lance.

- I do admit that this might've been a bit preemptive because Rutger has a large availability over Percival, so I could re-concede Percival over Rutger.

Quote

Slashed Zealot, Tate and the Cavs together because they're basically all about the same; Tate flies but she's effectiveely the third flier so diminishing returns kick in + availability and only passable combat, Alance are mostly self improving whilst Marcus and Rutger carry till they promote, Zealot doesn't have as good availability but comes with the same bases and ranks to fill in no matter what and is pretty competant combat wise till like Chapter 19I. Astor dropped because Chest Keys and Door Keys are really abundant, he does not deserve to be above these other units who have better combat and utility than he does.

So I kind of want to discuss this one more in-depth because there's a lot going on with it. This also will answer people's questions about the ranking.

The deal was, originally, the flight was rather large lead for Tate while having good enough combat stats to work. I still stand by that statement; however, I do think that those four are very debatable and require a lot more in-depth look. I think what's worthwhile is to do something that's rather extreme - compare the four of them side-by-side. I can't do this right away - it probably won't be until the weekend or my actual weekend (next Tuesday / Wed / Thursday); however, I want to post to state that I am open to re-arranging these 4 and think it is worthwhile to actually investigate it in nitty gritty detail.

For the record Astor will definitely drop below them.

Quote

Noah was too high. I agree with bumping him and Sue up a bit but over Deke? Sorry man, that's whaaack. Deke's availability and earlygame clutch outweighs Noah's role as a tertiary Paladin by a decent amount, and Deke has solid potential if he gets the first Hero Crest too. Like, I get that Noah is statistically not that far behind Alan if you compare it favorably for him, but really, one of the Cavs can easily have a notable EXP lead on him so it's not quite as close as one might want to think, and Noah has pretty blagh lategame prospects compared to the Christmas Cavs.

I think Klein is ever so slightly better than Noah or Sue because of his immediate slotability into just about any team comp, along with not costing a promotion item which saves money for Boots, which is maybe my prepromote bias showing.

Echidna above Igrene is fair I think given Igrene needs to work on her Bow Rank to reach A, and can't realistically get to S in efficiency. Her bases don't really offer a significant advantage over Klein since the two of them tend to use the Brave Bow anyway, just Igrene can double a few things with a Killer Bow for a chance of an ORKO instead.

I felt that either way Noah really should go up. Noah may be a mediocre unit in the very late stages in the game, but from Chapter 8 on he's pretty usable and the early Knights Crest makes him a powerful Paladin throughout Western Isles to blitz through. His Sword Rank is actually good enough to make him usable for that - even up to Killing Edges once they are available. His combat stats are just good enough for Ilia too, though his combat parameters in Sacae definitely suffer. I think that Noah > Klein is very debatable and likely can result in Noah a win. I feel we can start there. Sue I definitely don't want above Deke though.

I think it should be as follows:

-Upper Mid-
Zeiss
Deke
Yodel
Cecilia
Clarine
Noah
Klein
Sue
Echidna
Igrene
Ellen

I definitely am open to debating Noah over Klein and vice versa, but I feel Noah's earlier availability and usefulness throughout a good portion of the game with small costs outweighs Klein just a bit.

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Bartre doesn't cost a promotion item so he cinches it over Fir (both are a bit superfluous though), Roy doesn't really have enough going for him to be over Lugh and Lot. Lugh has pretty much the same clutch as Roy early on and can actually reach strong status if trained, Lot has less clutch but is overall more solid across the board and is arguably the most average character in the game. Treck should be over Fae because we're basically weighting utility and he has more availability.

Bartre vs Fir is really a unit that has midgame utility versus a growth unit that has small niches if used for them (bosskilling). I'm open to interpretation on this one. The main reason I put Fir above Bartre is that Fir is still pretty nice in Western Isles to a point (she's just really shoddy in taking too much at once sometimes) and she can work around some of her flaws with Lancereaver. She's at a cost of a Heroes Crest I admit, though, so there is that nail against her I guess. I agree with Lugh and Lot over Roy honestly. Lot is kind of bad offensively and Roy's contributions are likely worse than Lot's earlygame at times (it's literally just Rapier against Cavs and small things in some of the earlier chapters). I think the only way Roy > Lot is that Roy is seriously trained since trained Lot is kind of shaky throughout the entire game in Speed.

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Garret has heaps better accuracy than Gonzalez and doesn't cost a promotion item (gee this is a running trend). Gonzalez does not have a significant speed lead over Garret to the point where he doubles things Garret doesn't without being invested in significantly or promoted, but this in itself is awkward due to how I've noted in the other thread that he can't be rescued by nearly any mount if he promotes. Both are basically banking on a crit to kill things and will likely never use anything but a Killer Axe so Garret's axe rank is irrelevant.

So this was one we spent probably, what, a good hour discussing in Discord and resulted in it's like Hugh lol with Lilina versus Gonzalez. For what it's worth I'm willing to put Garret above Lilina and Gonzalez. I think Lilina vs Gonzalez really outlines on how much you value accurate chip with a potential of Bolting / Aircalibur if promoted versus Gonzalez, if strapped to someone like Tate, can be a combat machine against some units like Wyvern Lords, Lance Paladins, and FalcoKnights. Gonzalez is a bit easier to train at the start per se outside of his accuracy liability, so there is that to consider. The accuracy liability, though, is a huge issue and it doesn't really patch (aka it never really fixes itself) until Gonzalez promotes. Still, Lilina does have Elfire chip with a decent Roy support helping it out a bit too. I think the only flaw to that argument is sometimes Roy is being ferried towards the throne whereas Lilina may not always be nearby it (so it's almost like a perk more than anything). Lilina being OHKOed constantly certainly doesn't help often until she's promoted or you give her an Angelic Robe.

The more I think about it, the more I've kind of been convinced on how Lilina could be seen as a better unit than Gonzalez, but I think the issue lies in that Gonzalez unpromoted can still be an okay combat unit and, when he promotes, you could argue he's promoting in a more optimal time (like Bern or maybe midway through Ilia) and, by that point, boots are within the grasp. He's at least useful in clearing the Generals at that point in time and he may actually hit towards S Rank Axes this way, but without concrete proof this part of the concept is kind of in smoke. I think the issue lies in what you see more as a detriment - a unit that's always OHKOed and needs to be protected for what sometimes may be superfluous 2 range chip, or Gonzalez's brutal combat that sometimes isn't always accurate at the cost of unpromoted Shanna or keeping Gonzalez unpromoted. Both are superfluous, though, when fully trained at the end of the day. That's partly why I could buy Lilina > Gonzalez since deploying her probably isn't a huge deal so long as she's chipping with Elfire or other tomes against dodgier units like Mercenaries. Anima's accuracy puts the court in her favor, anyway.

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Suggested changes - bump Hugh above Geese because even minimum stats Hugh is still in a better class with better weapons with okay bulk. 

Definitely agreed since Geese is a useless chump.

2 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

I agree with Rutger>Percival. Percival is better in pretty much every chapter after he joins, but this is less important than the reliability+turns saved of what Rutger does before Percival joins IMO. I think the dancers might be better than him too- Percival is a good unit and all but I think Miledy ends up overshadowing him a lot.

Noah seems kinda high. On an average run, Alan and Lance will both outclass him upon Noah's jointime and Noah's offensive growths are the lowest of the three. We don't have enough Knight's Crests to promote them all immediately, so odds are on a given run Noah will be unpromoted and without a promotion his stats are pretty meh offensively. I think in most cases I'd rather have a unit like Cecilia with 1 more Mov+ staff utility+ anima tome stuff than mediocre combat. Noah's value does go up if we don't use Alance or they both get screwed I suppose.

I kinda think Zeiss>Tate because his durability allows him to engage a lot more enemies which is important for maximizing flight utility, but I'm not sure who would move where.

We kind of discussed the two, though I have also will talk about the Dancers vs Percival. I think the one thing that goes for the dancers is that they're available a little earlier than Percival. I think the issue is that Percival is likely one of those units that could potentially be Danced as well, which while is a point in favor for Dancers, it still is a point in favor of Percival as well. Dancers vs combat units get really superfluous because the nitty gritty of it is hard to compare (after all one is combat unit and the other is strictly utility). I think on the basis that Percival does have some utility in that he's a combat unit that's somewhat hard to replicate in some areas I disagree with putting him below the Dancers.

As for Zeiss vs Tate, though Zeiss has better durability Tate also has a lot more availability and will shave more turns in the long run by flight utility alone. Zeiss's combat is pretty average outside of Pegasus Knights to be honest and maybe against some units like Generals where Zeiss's higher base Strength is likely doing more favors for than Tate. It's also really hard to see Zeiss a whole tier above Deke and Tate below Alan and Lance honestly. Tate still is great because, even for strict flight purposes, it enables more free use of Miledy too. The solution may be to move both Deke and Zeiss up, but honestly that might even be going too far because Zeiss is available rather late in the game and needs some work to really be decent (or at worst he's still a good flier unit but his durability lead is all he has and in some cases it doesn't always matter - though there are instances where he could probably be more reckless with Rescue drops).

Sorry to not quote you Jedi and RFoF, but still good to see the latter again and, as for the former, I think we can address that throughout more stat comparisons and the like of what needs to happen with Tate. I do want to forewarn that I think people are kind of hating on Tate a little too hard IMO, but the units around her (Zealot especially) have a lot of potential going for them.

Edited by Colonel M

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Percival also doesn't exist for like, half the game.  I'd definately lower him to below the dancers (and out of top tier imo...)  The game wouldn't be substantially harder without Percival compared to any other unit in his tier.    Alance might be "RNG Screwable" but by the same point they're also capabale of being blessed, it's a moot point.  A few extra points of speed early on and they're suddenly overwhelmingly better than they are on average (don't lists assume averages anyway?)   I'm pretty sure your cav of choice isn't going to just be 20/1 or 15/5 or something by the time Percival joins either, I could be wrong though, i'm only in chapter 8 of my current run and Alan is almost level 12 (without much effort),  Raising swords early is preferred and beneficial for early armourslayer, Durandal really isn't the chore you're making it out to be. 

Mid-Lategame prepremotes have been heavily overrated for a long time (not so much Percival, he's still very very good, but not top tier good) too.  This is more of an FE7 problem though with Harken and Pent (especially Pent)


EDIT: I don't think using hammers is particularly noteworthy for percival, killer axes are nice tho

Edited by General Horace

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If you're going to argue by exclusion, then I could say that the game wouldn't be substantially harder without dancers either.

Biased against Alan and Lance because they've never been useful in any of my HM runs, so can't say how better ones compare to Percival.  I think that costing a Knight Crest should count against them, considering that they're either 1) a better Marcus/Zealot for a few chapters or 2) a worse Percival who joins earlier.

The problem with the FE7 comparison is that the increased combat parameters/ranks don't matter in FE7.  Erk can still ORKO and use staves and Raven doesn't fare particularly worse than Harken on any map outside of CoD (although he's not particularly good himself).

Edited by Refa

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I would argue that Elphin > Lalum by a tiny margin thanks to his durability lead. Elphin at level 1 with an Angelic Robe survives physical hits up to 25 Atk, Lalum only up to 22 Atk. It's a tiny thing, but durability is pretty much the only criterium to differenciate between them.

Dayan seems a bit low - he starts with 14 Str / 20 Spd and good weapon ranks (Killing Edge and Silver Bow) - nothing great, but still a decent chipper and wyvern hunter. He should be able to double Wyvern Lords in ch.21 (14-16 AS according to the pinned topic). I would maybe put him one tier higher - maybe at the top of lower mid, but at least between Lilina and Garret.

Noah really seems too high. An additional mounted C Sword user on the isles is nice and all, but he'll play forth fiddle in that role behind Marcus, Zealot and the promoted half of Alance. I'd probably bump him down to the bottom of Upper Mid.

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9 hours ago, Refa said:

If you're going to argue by exclusion, then I could say that the game wouldn't be substantially harder without dancers either.

Biased against Alan and Lance because they've never been useful in any of my HM runs, so can't say how better ones compare to Percival.  I think that costing a Knight Crest should count against them, considering that they're either 1) a better Marcus/Zealot for a few chapters or 2) a worse Percival who joins earlier.

The problem with the FE7 comparison is that the increased combat parameters/ranks don't matter in FE7.  Erk can still ORKO and use staves and Raven doesn't fare particularly worse than Harken on any map outside of CoD (although he's not particularly good himself).

I dunno, I find the dancer/bard are a lot more valuable to the team than Percival.  Think about the maps where you warp Rutger/Miledy/Barth whoever is killing a boss.  They might be amazing, but if you're warpskipping some maps their survival is a coinflip without dancing warper to make Roy seize on the same turn, and they also provide a safety net in case your dudes miss a very common ~75/80 hit on the player phase.  What does Percival actually contribute that's unique to the team compared to the other top tier units?  Knight Crest competition is extremely low too.  Competition between Alan and Lance themselves is irrelevant, since only one should theoretically be (fully) invested in, leaving only Noah, who is a worse unit both short and long term.  I'd personally take a (very very slightly) worse Percival that has an availability lead of EIGHTEEN CHAPTERS (this is important) than Percival himself.  Alan/Lance are also among your better earlygame units (only behind Dieck/Marcus and eventually Rutger) so experience isn't a hotly contested resourse there either.  

I just made the FE7 comparison since it really is a big deal.  Percival exists (if you don't count his join map since he does nothing there) for twelve maps out of 30 in the game, and some of said maps have the option to be warpskipped so he could even do nothing for some of them.  He doesn't bring anything special to the team other than high stats on a horse which can be replicated by two units you get in chapter 1.   He's very useful and definately deserves a spot on every team, but a top tier unit?  Come on.

Edited by General Horace

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7 hours ago, General Horace said:

Percival also doesn't exist for like, half the game.  I'd definately lower him to below the dancers (and out of top tier imo...)  The game wouldn't be substantially harder without Percival compared to any other unit in his tier.    Alance might be "RNG Screwable" but by the same point they're also capabale of being blessed, it's a moot point.  A few extra points of speed early on and they're suddenly overwhelmingly better than they are on average (don't lists assume averages anyway?)   I'm pretty sure your cav of choice isn't going to just be 20/1 or 15/5 or something by the time Percival joins either, I could be wrong though, i'm only in chapter 8 of my current run and Alan is almost level 12 (without much effort),  Raising swords early is preferred and beneficial for early armourslayer, Durandal really isn't the chore you're making it out to be. 

Not really, +2 or so speed or str doesn't tend to make them perform drastically better (most enemies are within good range), wheras being -2 tends to make them perform drastically worse. One assumes averages but when it gets into nitty gritty specifics, I think it's worth considering the inherant reliability of a prepromote as a positive.

Raising swords is preffered but its still pretty difficult for them to have A by the time Percival joins, it's more than likely B which is still a lot of WEXP. It's certainly possible, but you have to put way less effort into Percival for him to use it, and really you benefit more strategically from using Lances when it helps you rather than exclusively hyperfocusing on using Swords in order to meet the requirements in time.

As for level...I'd say being promoted at level 13 to 15 and being about level 5 to 7 is a pretty reasonable estimate for them.at the point Percival joins.

12 hours ago, Colonel M said:

I get that Rutger is really big in earlygame, but the problem that I have with Rutger is that his bosskilling at times can be replicated in a few instances or is inferior to things like Armorslayer Marcus / Zealot. Basically Rutger is best against units that he can double and Marcus / Zealot are iffy to fight against. The few that pop to mind are Dory (which Rutger has realistic death chances against too, but he's obviously better), Henning, some of the monsters bosses in Western Isles, and a few others. Another potential nick against Rutger is that, though it requires training, you could also argue that Deke or Fir could potentially duplicate the bosskilling in some instances. For Deke this is a lot harder, but there are instances where he flat out kills things better with his higher Strength stat if he can hit S Swords and Fir isn't the worst to train in Western Isles.

Here's basically how I viewed Percival vs Rutger.

- Rutger is definitely one of the best earlygame units. I feel that his contributions are large in his bosskilling and a few instances where the army is objectively weaker, but even by the time you hit instances like Western Isles it's likely a Paladin stormfest with the occasion of borrowing Rutger to kill the boss.

- Percival has very solid stats and weapon rank upon jointime, takes very little funneling to really be a high functioning unit, and is rather difficult to completely copy with something like a trained Alan or Lance.

- I do admit that this might've been a bit preemptive because Rutger has a large availability over Percival, so I could re-concede Percival over Rutger.

I dunno man. He's more accurate than Marcus or Zealot are, and Marcus can't use the KE at base, and his promotion makes him leagues better in reliability terms. Rutger basically saves turns by adding shitloads of reliability and not requiring you to sit waiting to kill the boss before you can seize. Deke can "replicate" Rutger's bosskilling but he still has a much worse chance of killing because he's missing 30% crit and doesn't double nearly as consistently. Fir takes time to catch up to Rutger's ability of bosskilling and doesn't have as good a Weapon Rank (which matters for using shit like the SIlver Sword or Durandal for killing bosses, which is a legit choice sometimes)

Rutger also kills enemies that the Paladins don't handle that well easily, like Mercs or promoted enemies. As said elsewhere, he's a delete button.

I agree that Percival is far enough ahead of Alance that he deserves to be Top, but Alance are self improving for a lot of their existance, Rutger is being clutch from the get go. The availability lead really matters.

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5 minutes ago, Irysa said:

Not really, +2 or so speed or str doesn't tend to make them perform drastically better (most enemies are within good range), wheras being -2 tends to make them perform drastically worse. One assumes averages but when it gets into nitty gritty specifics, I think it's worth considering the inherant reliability of a prepromote as a positive.

Raising swords is preffered but its still pretty difficult for them to have A by the time Percival joins, it's more than likely B which is still a lot of WEXP. It's certainly possible, but you have to put way less effort into Percival for him to use it, and really you benefit more strategically from using Lances when it helps you rather than exclusively hyperfocusing on using Swords in order to meet the requirements in time.

As for level...I'd say being promoted at level 13 to 15 and being about level 5 to 7 is a pretty reasonable estimate for them.at the point Percival joins.

+2 strength makes a pretty big deal in chapter 4/5 for just raw damage against the huge hp pool of enemies, but the +speed doesn't do a whole lot.  

In a current run my Alan is level 13 (probably 14 by chapter end) in chapter 8x with C Swords/C Lances and I'm not playing slowly at all (went the short way through chapter 5, skipped some chests in chapter 6, etc).  I'm really doubting his inability to have A swords by the time Percival shows up.  He's also -1 str/spd and average everywhere else so he's not getting extra exp because he's blessed.  Your level estimate is terribly low.

Edited by General Horace

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13 minutes ago, General Horace said:

+2 strength makes a pretty big deal in chapter 4/5 for just raw damage against the huge hp pool of enemies, but the +speed doesn't do a whole lot.  

It's nice but it doesn't really affect the strategic possibilities much. Comparatively, Percival's stat lead does let him actually ORKO a bunch of enemies Alance can't without crits and bosskill better.

13 minutes ago, General Horace said:

In a current run my Alan is level 13 in chapter 8x with C Swords/C Lances and I'm not playing slowly at all (went the short way through chapter 5, skipped some chests in chapter 6, etc).  I'm really doubting his inability to have A swords by the time Percival shows up.  He's also -1 str/spd and average everywhere else so he's not getting extra exp because he's blessed.  Your level estimate is terribly low.

Being 13 at 8x sounds about right to me, but then I promote him right there because you want him promoted to leverage that extra movement, durability and typically the Weapon rank increase too, (at least for me) in the Isles. IDK how the hell he has C Swords if he's not promoted by then though, considering that's well over 40 kills. Are you sure you're not playing a modified ROM or something? Alan gets 2 WEXP for finishing an enemy an 3 for doubling and finishing, and killing somewhere between 40 to 60 enemies by chapter 8x is not something I consider feasible unless you are super sandbagging Shanna.

EDIT: Math was off, fixed it.

1 hour ago, General Horace said:

I dunno, I find the dancer/bard are a lot more valuable to the team than Percival.  Think about the maps where you warp Rutger/Miledy/Barth whoever is killing a boss.  They might be amazing, but if you're warpskipping some maps their survival is a coinflip without dancing warper to make Roy seize on the same turn

I strongly disagree with this. I've played FE6 without making use of a Dancer and it's really usually not that big a deal to just warp the bosskiller first, position them favorably, then have them fight the boss and Warp Roy a turn later. In fact, this is how many of the Warpskips in the game function anyway. Dancers are typically only saving 1 turn per map a lot of the time, although you are correct that they add a lot of reliablity and flexability. But that's pretty much what Percival does too.

Edited by Irysa

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There isn't much point in using lances early game except in cases where they score a KO (very rarely) or for extra damage against the swordcavs in chapter 4.  Swords have higher hit even with WTD against soldiers so he's basically been exclusively using them, he still has D.5ish lances.  Very sure the ROM is unmodified lol, i've done this several times.  Noah can be at Durandal around the time Percival joins if you really feel like it.  (not that he does much with it...)

Not sure you even need to promote Alan/Lance right away for the isles.  They'll have adequete offence unpromoted and you already have (potentially) promoted Thany, Zealot and Marcus, and the one point of movement isn't hurting you very much.  It's not like promoting them right away is gonna cause a huge jump in performance, like promoting Shanna is.  It's fine to promote her since her long term potential isn't great anyway (offensively anyway) and her flexibility goes up loads with the promo boosts + swords, but Alance don't really need the boost to perform well in the isles.   

I don't know what the stance for this list is (it's not stated anywhere afaik) but i'm sure it's not a LTC list so they're not gonna end up prmoting immediately (and alance are undoubtabley better turnsavers than Percy in LTC anyway) so i'm not sure what metric we're supposed to be using.

Edited by General Horace

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40 minutes ago, General Horace said:

There isn't much point in using lances early game except in cases where they score a KO (very rarely) or for extra damage against the swordcavs in chapter 4.  Swords have higher hit even with WTD against soldiers so he's basically been exclusively using them, he still has D.5ish lances.  Very sure the ROM is unmodified lol, i've done this several times.  Noah can be at Durandal around the time Percival joins if you really feel like it.  (not that he does much with it...)

Yeah but it's not just accuracy that matters. Enemy accuracy is a thing when they're using Swords, and the two of them can go from being 3HKO'd to being 2HKO'd if they are eating an extra point of damage or so. Additionally, lances let Alance 3HKO Soldiers instead of 4HKO, which exposes them less if you're combining EP and PP, or helps to let someone like Shanna finish without taking a counter too. Then there's just things like Javelins, which whilst inaccurate, are better than not having a chance to get any EP action in against other Javelin wielders or Mages. The extra power also really does matter in maps like Chapter 7 too, where nearly all the enemies use Lances so the Mt difference is 3. I've done plenty of slow playthroughs where Alance are like D and a bit Swords and D and a bit Lances, so whilst I accept C Swords is pretty feasible if you bias it, I don't really see where all that extra lance WEXP is coming from.

40 minutes ago, General Horace said:

Not sure you even need to promote Alan/Lance right away for the isles.  They'll have adequete offence unpromoted and you already have (potentially) promoted Thany, Zealot and Marcus, and the one point of movement isn't hurting you very much.  It's not like promoting them right away is gonna cause a huge jump in performance, like promoting Shanna is.  It's fine to promote her since her long term potential isn't great anyway (offensively anyway) and her flexibility goes up loads with the promo boosts + swords, but Alance don't really need the boost to perform well in the isles.   

You don't "need" to but the fact is that having them promoted at that point results in a much longer spree of dominance than promoting later does. They go from being just solid and maybe your 4th best combat units to being possibly your best for 6 maps, then being your second and third best for most of the rest of the game. Percival's existance basically allows them to have that period of dominance without it meaning you'll be lacking in a more powerful unit come lategame. I mean, do you at least agree that you don't need a 5th Paladin after Percival joins and you get the other Knight Crest? Because I've always found that it's totally not worth it, and holding off on their promotion effectively moves them closer and closer towards being like that instead of having a very strong showing midgame.

Like, the midgame maps are where you don't have warp and where the maps are wide and movement matters. Terrain, Warp, etc all actually make the extra movement less relevant later than they do in the Isles.

Edited by Irysa

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Yeah, I get what you're saying with your second point there, and I'll concede it, it makes sense.  However what also makes no sense is rating a unit that is a top 5 unit on your team for almost the entire game outside the top 10 units and a dude that is your second best unit for a third of the game fourth is very confusing, especially when the gap between 2-5ish isn't very big.  I'm not terrible opposed to Allen/Lance staying where they're listed, but Percival needs to drop.  Zealot/Tate below Alance though for sure.  Zealot's combat is similar to an unpromoted Alance and doesn't hold up for as long and doesn't exist for earlygame and I really have no idea what Tate does at all outside of flying dudes around and having bad combat.


WRT to the first point, you just have to be not stupid about it.  Of course you're not gonna go EP a bunch of soldiers with swords or something, there are several scenerios where enemies are left with ~5-7 HP in the earlygame where you can just secure the kill with Alan or Shanna or whoever.  

Again i'm not playing at a "slow" pace.  The only maps i've taken more than 10 turns on so far are Chapter 8 (which is a long horrible chapter anyway) and Chapter 3 because Dieck missed the boss like 5 times in a row.  

Edited by General Horace

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