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Thoughts on a lord with a criminal record?


Lord Tullus
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Should there be a criminal as a protagonist in future Fire Emblem games?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Should there be a criminal as a protagonist in future Fire Emblem games?

    • Yes. It's time for a prison break!
      19
    • No. Keep it locked up!
      5
    • Intelligent Systems does what they want, so it doesn't matter to me.
      7
    • Hacks only.
      3


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I have seen this in some topics, but not as a topic itself.
Essentially this is what the title says, a main protagonist (dubbed, "Lord") who is a criminal or has a background that is obviously not good.  I'd personally like to see this adapted, and it hasn't been done with a main character in FE before.  It might be even better if the crime committed was extremely severe, and had risen out of some hatred for unfortunate events or mistakes that highlight norms within a society.  For example, a former mercenary wants to get revenge on the king of his country because his wife was killed, but only because their laws state that said wife was part of a group of people that are forbidden to marry or mate.  This sparks conflict and motivation to do bad deeds, creating a circle of cause and effects, as there could be reasons why such laws are in place.  This shows corruption within a country, and the populace that believes in the country's leaders and some don't. This leads to conflict, and so on and so forth.

What I'm trying to say here that a different perspective on one character and their motivations can change the tone of an entire story if these traits both arise from and cause conflict.  This seems especially true when applied to the main protagonist, who we have received nothing but a stale lord with slight alterations in character or deviations in personalities, but not birth. Aside from Ike, of course.  Characters like Michiah have mystery and amazement simply because the back ground is kept from us, and even her motivations, however wrong, made her stronger and her Ideals more intreaguing, at least in my opinion.  Characters like Ike are outstanding because he's not a lord of nobility, and he takes no crap and gives no sympathy.  His actions dictate his roles in the story as he grows in path of radiance.

A criminal would break the Cliche's of storytelling in FE if it was done right.  There's real potential of multiple backgrounds that don't need to be tied to side characters.  What do you all think about this? 

 

Edited by Lord Tullus
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Isn't Holmes from Tear Ring Saga technically this? He is a pirate, after all. Though he is friends with Runan so I guess he probably isn't strictly a "pirate" more than a Robin Hood.

Edited by Tryhard
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I'd approve of anything if the execution is nailed right. Be it in a bright traditional for FE high fantasy setting or a nitty gritty one, if it is executed well, I'm be okay with your idea.

Don't give me 100% angst beef or darkly immoral just 'cause or just pure raging emotions that leads to pure stupid errors. That I will ask for.

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Couldn't agree more! Anti-heroes were always my favorites. A flawed character working to improve themselves is just inherently more endearing to me than an ideal hero who doesn't need to improve themselves. There's also the whole underdog appeal to consider. While playing as a goody two shoes royal who belongs to a legendary bloodline and is worshiped and adored by everyone around them makes for a nice power fantasy, it doesn't make for an especially interesting character or story. A common man becoming a hero however is much more impactful since they don't have any unfair advantages in life. They don't have a legendary sword or magical dragon blood or a legion of followers willing to die for them purely because they are who they are... They just have their skill, their cunning and their willpower. This makes their victories feel more gratifying as a result, since it feels like the protagonist has earned them through nothing but their own hard work.

...Also, while we're on the subject... Can we drop the whole "I live to protect the weak Nya-ha!" style of protagonist please? I've really never been able to take this kind of protagonist seriously. There's nothing wrong with a character being altruistic, but when their entire motivation is that they want to help others it just comes across as forced, boring and hard to believe. It's like the writers are scared of giving their protagonists any vices in case they alienate a fraction of the audience, so they just make their heroes as inoffensive as they can, which leads to stale protagonists.

Okay, digression over. I think your criminal idea is good. I doubt it will ever actually happen due to writers being afraid to take risks though. Why try and create another Ike when you can just regurgitate Chrom and people will eat it up, right?

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Just now, Glaceon Mage said:

Could work in theory, but I'm concerned over how on earth recruitment of non-criminals would even work

Well, I'm thinking that the criminal escapes execution somehow (inspiration comes from the FE5 manster escape chapters) and ends up being a prisoner of an opposing army.  Bigger and better things come along, plot evolves, character isn't entirely edgy or evil, goes on a bigger quest as a redemption, etc.  Fire Emblem stories, if done right, have a tendancy to evolve into larger scale conflicts as things go on, or start as a smaller portion of that huge conflict.  I think.  That's just me.

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4 minutes ago, Taxon said:

 There's nothing wrong with a character being altruistic, but when their entire motivation is that they want to help others it just comes across as forced, boring and hard to believe. It's like the writers are scared of giving their protagonists any vices in case they alienate a fraction of the audience, so they just make their heroes as inoffensive as they can, which leads to stale protagonists.

Okay, digression over. I think your criminal idea is good. I doubt it will ever actually happen due to writers being afraid to take risks though. Why try and create another Ike when you can just regurgitate Chrom and people will eat it up, right?

Well, that's true.  People ate up chrom for no reason.   IS... I really wish someone from the writing team would just browse this forum site one day for a while looking for Ideas.  Not plagiarism, but more like inspirational tweaks.  Well, what can ya do?  I see why they are scared though.  With how much of a flop the radiance games were, they are afraid to try new things and repeat the same mistakes.  If they took some marketing practices into account and tried to identify the problem with the sales (which is marketing and advertising in general) maybe they could find a way to involve new ideas without alienating new players or getting release dates that aren't around a bigger, more popular IP like Mario mario.

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48 minutes ago, Lord Tullus said:

Well, that's true.  People ate up chrom for no reason.   IS... I really wish someone from the writing team would just browse this forum site one day for a while looking for Ideas.  Not plagiarism, but more like inspirational tweaks.  Well, what can ya do?  I see why they are scared though.  With how much of a flop the radiance games were, they are afraid to try new things and repeat the same mistakes.  If they took some marketing practices into account and tried to identify the problem with the sales (which is marketing and advertising in general) maybe they could find a way to involve new ideas without alienating new players or getting release dates that aren't around a bigger, more popular IP like Mario mario.

1. Don't double-post, use the little plus sign next to the Quote button instead.
2. IS' main audience looks like Japan - the games are released over there first, and then translated for the rest of the world.  Keep this in mind.

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Gaius from awakening was a convicted (and branded) criminal with a dark past that raised questions about society. It just got played for comedy like all the characterization in awakening.

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Oooh, have this CG scene where a healer strips the lord of his vest to reveal a tattooed back. Straight Yakuza Emblem. They wouldn't go for that, tattoos are taboos in Nippon.

If the main lord is fighting back against a tyrannical rule that's actually evil, then that doesn't make them an actual criminal. Even in jail, that still makes them a hero. If you really want a jail break sequence to start off the game, have Marth get captured. And if criminal is strictly the lord's background, then chances are they'll just write a redemption story, doing the same heroic things that your blue haired swordie would have done in each situation even if the cute healer has to occasionally talk you into it.  Can't write a story about infiltrating an underground crime syndicate if you're a lord whom everybody knows your face. Or failing that, sees your fine hair, astute vocabulary, and perfect teeth.

Breaking molds and avoiding cliches is great, but with main characters I don't mind some sameness when it works. When they do things I want them to do it makes me relate to their struggle. This is why people don't like Nohrrin and story!Xander, they do things you don't expect just because (I assume) the writers didn't want conquest to be just a variation on Birthright's ending.

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4 minutes ago, sirmola said:

Gaius from awakening was a convicted (and branded) criminal with a dark past that raised questions about society. It just got played for comedy like all the characterization in awakening.

I mean if we're talking criminals from any playable characters, Lifis is pretty much the definition of one who never repents and still joins your side.

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It's going to wind up a necessity that the antagonist do something "badder" than the protagonist, and I think that enough is too much a sacrifice. The fact that the main charather was a criminal would get sidelined as background, and possibly put the bad guy in camp territory. I don't see the point of having it as part of a character's past. Either make a full on "bandit story" or a chilling "rise of" story, or don't include it at all. Too much of the setting/ supporting cast has to be sacrificed (in quality)or literally to make a "villian" likable, at least the way IS does it.

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I think the key problem is IS most recent games haven't shown the ability to pull off even a cliche Fire emblem plot in the recent releases.

Now a redemption story could be quite interesting if done right but after how badly the screwed up the story of fates I don't think they are currently up to the task anytime soon.

 

1 hour ago, Reality said:

It's going to wind up a necessity that the antagonist do something "badder" than the protagonist, and I think that enough is too much a sacrifice. The fact that the main character was a criminal would get sidelined as background, and possibly put the bad guy in camp territory. I don't see the point of having it as part of a character's past. Either make a full on "bandit story" or a chilling "rise of" story, or don't include it at all. Too much of the setting/ supporting cast has to be sacrificed (in quality)or literally to make a "villain" likable, at least the way IS does it.

There isn't any need for that kind of approach a redemption story could easily allow a relatable protagonist as could a the ends justify the means anti hero. Though if you are referring to IS's storytelling capability... well yeah...

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I think this would better as a ROM hack because those don't have to worry about the game being marketable to a general audience. With a scenario like this, you can't go to severe with the crime other wise people would feel they don't deserve redemption; who would want to cheer for a murderer. But if the crime was to light, then the people who would like this set-up might find it to ridiculous. A lot of fan created  ideas to me come off as not intended for a wider audience. Which is suitable for a fan made game but not for one that has millions of dollars poured into it.

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2 hours ago, I'm a Spheal said:

I think this would better as a ROM hack because those don't have to worry about the game being marketable to a general audience. With a scenario like this, you can't go to severe with the crime other wise people would feel they don't deserve redemption; who would want to cheer for a murderer. But if the crime was to light, then the people who would like this set-up might find it to ridiculous. A lot of fan created  ideas to me come off as not intended for a wider audience. Which is suitable for a fan made game but not for one that has millions of dollars poured into it.

I personally wouldn't.  Who said you had to "cheer" for the murderous scumbag?  There are plenty of games and stories in media and cinema that have a true anti-hero, and sometimes it's pulled off really well.  The problem with fire emblem stories is that they've been sticking with the same, if not similar, shtick  for over 25 years.  And with similar plots and character archetypes to fill the void it becomes difficult to build an interesting story from the ground up and still keep that FE experience that comes from the character interaction with the challenges of war or hardship.

 So, in order for a new character like a Criminal to work, there would need to be some sort of "crutch" character within the story to build the personality of the lord while establishing a relationship with the greater cast.  Sometimes these relationships aren't good or turn sour, like with Gatrie or Shinon leaving the mercenary company after Ike's papa bit the dust.  But with bad relations, there are also good ones, so making it so that the protagonist uses the other characters to highlight grey morality, rather than just flat out hate, is a challenge that would be better left to the hacking community.  But it would feel good to see something like this come from IS.

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It sounds interesting to have a "lord" like that.

 

I also have an idea. How about a Lord from some other kingdom/empire got captured by the "evil" kingdom (for whatever reason, like war), and must now get out of prison along with their fellow army members? And then the rest of the story takes place where various things could happen (such as the lord and their comrades trying to flee back to their homeland, and then eventually make plans to defeat the evil empire)? Just giving an idea, so um, say what you want about it.

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7 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

It sounds interesting to have a "lord" like that.

 

I also have an idea. How about a Lord from some other kingdom/empire got captured by the "evil" kingdom (for whatever reason, like war), and must now get out of prison along with their fellow army members? And then the rest of the story takes place where various things could happen (such as the lord and their comrades trying to flee back to their homeland, and then eventually make plans to defeat the evil empire)? Just giving an idea, so um, say what you want about it.

 

This is literally a description of Leif

 

Edited by JSND
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1 minute ago, JSND said:

 

Just like 90% of "new idead"

 

this is literally description of Leif

Oh.

 

Well, in that case, I failed at making an idea.

 

uhh I'll leave now.

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21 hours ago, Lord Tullus said:

Characters like Ike are outstanding because he's not a lord of nobility, and he takes no crap and gives no sympathy.  His actions dictate his roles in the story as he grows in path of radiance.

That's not true. Ike is actually quite kind and compassionate, just laid over a veneer of simple "no nobility manners/airs, says what's on his mind." He's still something of an idealist, though not as exaggerated as lords like Marth and Eliwood, like when he tells Jill to stuff it when she tries to join his side with her clear racism, and comforts the emotionally-broken Soren with a hug. That's why people took issue with his "You'll get no sympathy from me" quote in Smash because it's out of character (and the original Japanese had it as "I won't go easy on you/I won't hold back," which makes much more sense with his character).

11 hours ago, Lord Tullus said:

I personally wouldn't.  Who said you had to "cheer" for the murderous scumbag?  There are plenty of games and stories in media and cinema that have a true anti-hero, and sometimes it's pulled off really well.  The problem with fire emblem stories is that they've been sticking with the same, if not similar, shtick  for over 25 years.  And with similar plots and character archetypes to fill the void it becomes difficult to build an interesting story from the ground up and still keep that FE experience that comes from the character interaction with the challenges of war or hardship.

While anti-heroes are indeed a thing, I feel like a lot of the time people miss exactly what an anti-hero is. Anti-hero doesn't mean "asshole who does terrible things with no redeeming or 'good' traits." It's just a term for a non-standard "good person" hero, which has mutated over time into "asshole who is on the good guys' side/and/or is the protagonist" a lot of the time. An anti-hero is meant to still fundamentally be a heroic person with generally heroic traits, just underneath and/or mixed with a rough, and lots of the times unpleasant shell. Someone like Batman is an anti-hero to Superman's regular hero, just based on how he's very distrustful even with his allies and uses fear tactics in order to keep in his enemies in line, but the guy still refuses to take human life, wants to clean up the crime-ridden streets, is a philanthropist, has a soft spot for children and the downtrodden, and is overall a well-meaning guy. (Well, when he's being written correctly...)

Coupled with that, every single character needs to have at least a few redeeming features so that the audience can get attached to them. With an asshole like Shinon, we get his friendship with Gatrie and mentorship of Rolf to attach to, to give him depth beyond "one-note asshole" so that we care about his fate. It's the same deal with Soren; it's his relationship and loyalty to Ike that gets us invested in him, even if he's snarky and generally insulting.

So an anti-hero lord would need to be the very same way. Sure, they could have a shady past, they could definitely have vices, but they'd need good in there too.

14 hours ago, I'm a Spheal said:

I think this would better as a ROM hack because those don't have to worry about the game being marketable to a general audience. With a scenario like this, you can't go to severe with the crime other wise people would feel they don't deserve redemption; who would want to cheer for a murderer. But if the crime was to light, then the people who would like this set-up might find it to ridiculous.

I don't necessarily think this is a problem. FE has made villains and anti-villains with heinous deeds under their belts sympathetic before (speaking of someone like Arvis, who barbecued the entire First Generation of Genealogy, but then ended up as one of the most sympathetic characters in the story by the time Gen 2 rolled around, just due to how he was being blackmailed to hell, had his beloved wife murdered by his son who turned into Satan, and has his daughter teleported away to the unknown). It helps that his motivations are sympathetic, in that he genuinely does want to stop the suffering of people...just in a rather extreme way.

And FE has done villain redemption before too; Michalis in New Mystery was forgiven, allowed to live, and even conquers other lands in his ending.

20 hours ago, Lord Tullus said:

Well, that's true.  People ate up chrom for no reason.   IS... I really wish someone from the writing team would just browse this forum site one day for a while looking for Ideas.  Not plagiarism, but more like inspirational tweaks.  Well, what can ya do?  I see why they are scared though.  With how much of a flop the radiance games were, they are afraid to try new things and repeat the same mistakes.  If they took some marketing practices into account and tried to identify the problem with the sales (which is marketing and advertising in general) maybe they could find a way to involve new ideas without alienating new players or getting release dates that aren't around a bigger, more popular IP like Mario mario.

I think a lot of the reason why the Tellius series flopped was its poor advertising, not necessarily that the story moved away from traditional FE. I can't speak on how much advertising it got in Japan, but the advertising was next to nonexistent in America, and as a result, the games didn't sell well. I think part of the problem in Japan was that handhelds are much, much more popular than consoles, but I can't be 100% sure.

I don't think they're afraid of trying new things. They introduced an Avatar mechanic, Pair Up, auto-marriage S supports, reclassing, and children being playable alongside their parents in games 12 through 14 only. If anything, they were ecstatic to try new things, thinking that it might save the franchise from its demise (which it did).

Though... half of me does see them as getting somewhat "comfortable" with the current style, tone and tropes of the current games now that it's proven to be financially successful (not speaking of Echoes here personally, because that's a remake), they have shown that they will try new things if they think it's required of them. On that note, I'm not sure how much innovation we'll get past the 3DS games (though I do believe that FE Switch is going to have its own engine for combat, at least, I don't know how much of the 3DS story, tone and character style they're going to carry over).

Edited by Extrasolar
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I'd be open to the idea of a lord like that. Though the balance between their morals and their dark side would have to be very carefully maintained. Too moral and people would find the character too similar to other lords, too dark and a lot of people would find the character and their decision making skills really cringeworthy.

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Do you mean a protagonist who is a criminal unjustly (either through being falsely accused or because the laws he broke were unjust) or one who rightly deserves his sentence?  If the latter, what's my motivation to care about this character?

Personally, I don't care how cliché a story is as long as it's told well (and If it's not told well, does it really matter how original or different it is?).

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7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Do you mean a protagonist who is a criminal unjustly (either through being falsely accused or because the laws he broke were unjust) or one who rightly deserves his sentence?  If the latter, what's my motivation to care about this character?

The latter.  He gets punished for the crime, but his reasoning was because of unjust laws and cultures in a strict system.  Having freedom is taken for granted in some areas, and putting the spot light on how rough society can get at a higher level simply due to fear or resentment can show just how valuable the aspect of freedom or choice can be.  But that's more My Idea than anything.  Although Freedom has been explored in FE before, I feel being forced into a situation you don't like being in (controlling an unlikable protagonist in this case) makes the game feel more disheartening, and the game should make you feel on edge if you are controlling a protagonist with shady ambitions.

Whether he gets redemption or not, I believe that Fire Emblem stories do well if they have a huge point of tragety to them.  Not lazily put in, but something that makes the player feel as if his/her or the protagonist's efforts were for nothing, or making the protagonist have some revelation about the reality around them, and how to adapt to the changes.  Does the character lose his/her identity or not?  Will this character accomplish these goals?  If not, how will any impending conflicts be resolved with this character having changed?  I think these aspects make a character interesting, and not neccisarily if they are straight up a horrible person or not.  I'd just like to see a new and somewhat darker take on a protagonist of a Fire Emblem game, because we haven't had a truly good one since Path of Radiance.  ( FE 11 Marth had good writing and dialogue, but everyone thinks he's more bland than a slice of wheat bread, so my opinion does not matter. :Gonzales:)

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