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Space-Time Rewinds in Echoes


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https://youtu.be/WiZzDXPCMXQ?t=890

According to this link, you can rewind moves in Echoes, but it's not quite abuseable. Not to mention, we don't yet know everything about it right now. I personally like the idea of this because while I don't mind restarting when a character dies. When I'm blindsided by poor luck(Enemy getting a critical hit out of nowhere on a 1% chance), however, I happen to get annoyed when I have to restart the chapter. So it's nice to be able to undo something like that. Or you know, in the event that you accidentally move a unit one space too far, you can undo it and fix that. It's a nice addition and seeing it so limited as what little we know about it right now does balance the potential overpoweredness.

 

Thoughts?

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2 minutes ago, Commander Xelon said:

https://youtu.be/WiZzDXPCMXQ?t=890

According to this link, you can rewind moves in Echoes, but it's not quite abuseable. Not to mention, we don't yet know everything about it right now. I personally like the idea of this because while I don't mind restarting when a character dies. When I'm blindsided by poor luck(Enemy getting a critical hit out of nowhere on a 1% chance), however, I happen to get annoyed when I have to restart the chapter. So it's nice to be able to undo something like that. Or you know, in the event that you accidentally move a unit one space too far, you can undo it and fix that. It's a nice addition and seeing it so limited as what little we know about it right now does balance the potential overpoweredness.

 

Thoughts?

I'd have to see more on Mila's Turnwheel to fully form an opinion, but it seems like something that would be nice in a time of desperation and being able to rewind a particularly terrible move choice.

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I think this will be a somewhat nice way for more apprehensive new players to get into classic mode and get more comfortable and I might actually play classic mode this time around which I haven't done since the addition of casual mode.

Though I would like more info on it.

Edited by Azz
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4 hours ago, AmericanBuizel said:

Aaaaaannnnnnndddddd there goes any veteran fans playing the game legally -_- 

How is using a an in-game feature illegal?

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4 hours ago, AmericanBuizel said:

Aaaaaannnnnnndddddd there goes any veteran fans playing the game legally -_- 

Is this implying people are going to pirate the game for letting you redo moves? Or that "legally" means like... by letting things happen as they are?

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26 minutes ago, Protagonist Softboy said:

Is this implying people are going to pirate the game for letting you redo moves? Or that "legally" means like... by letting things happen as they are?

I would say that it's the former, rather than the latter. Then again, I'm quite particular about my vernacular and would've used legitimately for the latter.

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18 hours ago, Commander Xelon said:

I would say that it's the former, rather than the latter. Then again, I'm quite particular about my vernacular and would've used legitimately for the latter.

 

17 hours ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

Honestly, this just seems to mimic the functions that save states have in fire emblem games. Its going to be undoubtably useful to prevent frustrating restarts.


It looks very abusable and dumbed down like casual mode was. That's why I said that veteran fans weren't going to play this game legally. 

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As far as we know at this point, the worst case scenario is that you can only use it 3 times... a map. That is hardly abusable and dumbed down. Casual mode allowed you to not worry about permanent death, ever. This one is like, "Here's three coins. Once you turn them all in, you can no longer change the future.

Besides, for all we know, it could be three times, a chapter, which are huge in gaiden. Or you get one charge back for each time you don't use it on a map.

Edited by Commander Xelon
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2 hours ago, Commander Xelon said:

As far as we know at this point, the worst case scenario is that you can only use it 3 times... a map. That is hardly abusable and dumbed down. Casual mode allowed you to not worry about permanent death, ever. This one is like, "Here's three coins. Once you turn them all in, you can no longer change the future.

Guys, don't worry about American Buizel. He's an elitist that complains about everything that he personally don't like. He's got a history of shitposting. He doesn't like to listen to logic.

Casual mode was for people new to the series who had been previously scared to play FE because of the permadeath, which, for someone new to strategy RPGs, can be terrifying. I've found that some veterans tend to forget what it was like to be an FE newb, when we all screwed up and made mistakes, losing units and having to restart because of it. Quite honestly, the FE games are difficult for people not used to the playstyle. Not to mention, it's 100% optional and can be ignored if you don't like it, so people crying about it will forever amuse me.

6 hours ago, AmericanBuizel said:

It looks very abusable and dumbed down like casual mode was. That's why I said that veteran fans weren't going to play this game legally. 

CkSxJ-4W0AEQ169.jpg

Edited by Extrasolar
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This looks to me like a good addition. Especially for Gaiden. This could be a bit tricky to articulate but I'll try...

I mean the thing is that Gaiden is nonlinear, with plenty of random battles. Random battles are fine in other RPGs but in Fire Emblem they are a bit problematic. In Fire Emblem having random battles means that there is no real map design. It's just a bunch of enemies spread all over the map. Battles like this would be best to approach with a more relaxed attitude and should serve as a bit of a breather for the actual tough maps. But because of permadeath you have stakes that force you to stay hyper focused even though the kind of challenge presented doesn't warrant that kind of engagement. Basically it forces you to focus on something that's just not interesting and mostly busywork. But with this feature, you should be able to get through random battles in a more relaxed fashion.

 

Another thing is that it actually makes the series more accessible. Now I don't think Casual Mode should be removed. Casual Mode allows more people to enjoy Fire Emblem and that's a good thing. But at least as far as I am concerned Casual Mode doesn't really make the game more accessible, as much as it's just IS simply giving up to make the traditional Fire Emblem gameplay more accessible and instead gave newcomers to the series a different game to play altogether. And since FE12 this has kinda resulted into something like the Online Multiplayer of Smash 4 where the game only offers two extremes. Like, you want to play 1 on 1 and no items? Well, then you're not gonna get any platforms either you fucking elitist. That kinda thing. Instead of providing an environment where everyone can have fun, they focus on two hypothetical extremist kind of players and everyone else has to kinda cope with what they've got.

I mean, in Casual Mode there are basically no stakes at all because of how unlikely it is to have a total party kill on a single map. But by contrast in Classic Mode it becomes less and less feasible to play through the game without restarting after every single death because the speed at which enemies grow in strength makes it quickly impossible to get someone from the bench to get back into the game and because the games now almost completely stop giving you new units that can hold their own without further training after the halfway point. Which isn't helped by the fact that the map design has become more and more punishing, making it far harder to level up weaker units and leaving very little room for error without having someone die. Basically in Classic Mode you simply don't get the kind of breathing room that you used to have in the old games.

The way it sounds to me this feature should help a great deal to give you more room for error while being limited enough to avoid encouraging the player not to bother with strategy altogether and to simply resort to trial & error.

Edited by BrightBow
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5 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Guys, don't worry about American Buizel. He's an elitist that complains about everything that he personally don't like. He's got a history of shitposting. He doesn't like to listen to logic.

I've already figured that one out.

 

5 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Casual mode was for people new to the series who had been previously scared to play FE because of the permadeath, which, for someone new to strategy RPGs, can be terrifying. I've found that some veterans tend to forget what it was like to be an FE newb, when we all screwed up and made mistakes, losing units and having to restart because of it. Quite honestly, the FE games are difficult for people not used to the playstyle. Not to mention, it's 100% optional and can be ignored if you don't like it, so people crying about it will forever amuse me.

People forget in general when they were new and/or bad at something and assume that they always were as good as they are now. This is where elitism comes from, it's the attitude that someone else is doing wrong when they aren't immediately as good as the veterans.

32 minutes ago, BrightBow said:
Spoiler

This looks to me like a good addition. Especially for Gaiden. This could be a bit tricky to articulate but I'll try...

I mean the thing is that Gaiden is nonlinear, with plenty of random battles. Random battles are fine in other RPGs but in Fire Emblem they are a bit problematic. In Fire Emblem having random battles means that there is no real map design. It's just a bunch of enemies spread all over the map. Battles like this would be best to approach with a more relaxed attitude and should serve as a bit of a breather for the actual tough maps. But because of permadeath you have stakes that force you to stay hyper focused even though the kind of challenge presented doesn't warrant that kind of engagement. Basically it forces you to focus on something that's just not interesting and mostly busywork. But with this feature, you should be able to get through random battles in a more relaxed fashion.

 

Another thing is that it actually makes the series more accessible. Now I don't think Casual Mode should be removed. Casual Mode allows more people to enjoy Fire Emblem and that's a good thing. But at least as far as I am concerned Casual Mode doesn't really make the game more accessible, as much as it's just IS simply giving up to make the traditional Fire Emblem gameplay more accessible and instead gave newcomers to the series a different game to play altogether. And since FE12 this has kinda resulted into something like the Online Multiplayer of Smash 4 where the game only offers two extremes. Like, you want to play 1 on 1 and no items? Well, then you're not gonna get any platforms either you fucking elitist. That kinda thing. Instead of providing an environment where everyone can have fun, they focus on two hypothetical extremist kind of players and everyone else has to kinda cope with what they've got.

I mean, in Casual Mode there are basically no stakes at all because of how unlikely it is to have a total party kill on a single map. But by contrast in Classic Mode it becomes less and less feasible to play through the game without restarting after every single death because the speed at which enemies grow in strength makes it quickly impossible to get someone from the bench to get back into the game and because the games now almost completely stop giving you new units that can hold their own without further training after the halfway point. Which isn't helped by the fact that the map design has become more and more punishing, making it far harder to level up weaker units and leaving very little room for error without having someone die. Basically in Classic Mode you simply don't get the kind of breathing room that you used to have in the old games.

The way it sounds to me this feature should help a great deal to give you more room for error while being limited enough to avoid encouraging the player not to bother with strategy altogether and to simply resort to trial & error.

 

Your post is my favorite post on all of Serenes Forest. It is very well thought out and explains your position very well. Though you and I disagree on the idea of casual mode, I can respect your opinion.

Edited by Commander Xelon
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This reminds me of the map saves from the two DS games - a limited get out of jail free card kept in check by a low use count, so you'll never cheese a hard stage just because of it. Fits better for a game with random encounters than map saves would, too.

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4 hours ago, BrightBow said:
Spoiler

 

This looks to me like a good addition. Especially for Gaiden. This could be a bit tricky to articulate but I'll try...

I mean the thing is that Gaiden is nonlinear, with plenty of random battles. Random battles are fine in other RPGs but in Fire Emblem they are a bit problematic. In Fire Emblem having random battles means that there is no real map design. It's just a bunch of enemies spread all over the map. Battles like this would be best to approach with a more relaxed attitude and should serve as a bit of a breather for the actual tough maps. But because of permadeath you have stakes that force you to stay hyper focused even though the kind of challenge presented doesn't warrant that kind of engagement. Basically it forces you to focus on something that's just not interesting and mostly busywork. But with this feature, you should be able to get through random battles in a more relaxed fashion.

 

Another thing is that it actually makes the series more accessible. Now I don't think Casual Mode should be removed. Casual Mode allows more people to enjoy Fire Emblem and that's a good thing. But at least as far as I am concerned Casual Mode doesn't really make the game more accessible, as much as it's just IS simply giving up to make the traditional Fire Emblem gameplay more accessible and instead gave newcomers to the series a different game to play altogether. And since FE12 this has kinda resulted into something like the Online Multiplayer of Smash 4 where the game only offers two extremes. Like, you want to play 1 on 1 and no items? Well, then you're not gonna get any platforms either you fucking elitist. That kinda thing. Instead of providing an environment where everyone can have fun, they focus on two hypothetical extremist kind of players and everyone else has to kinda cope with what they've got.

I mean, in Casual Mode there are basically no stakes at all because of how unlikely it is to have a total party kill on a single map. But by contrast in Classic Mode it becomes less and less feasible to play through the game without restarting after every single death because the speed at which enemies grow in strength makes it quickly impossible to get someone from the bench to get back into the game and because the games now almost completely stop giving you new units that can hold their own without further training after the halfway point. Which isn't helped by the fact that the map design has become more and more punishing, making it far harder to level up weaker units and leaving very little room for error without having someone die. Basically in Classic Mode you simply don't get the kind of breathing room that you used to have in the old games.

The way it sounds to me this feature should help a great deal to give you more room for error while being limited enough to avoid encouraging the player not to bother with strategy altogether and to simply resort to trial & error.

 

 

I also think the Revival Shrines in the original were a good alternative to Casual (even if they existed before.). I did used it once or twice in my current Gaiden Playthrough, and it's not too harsh while still being something you wish to avoid.

Casual is more annoying in other FE sicne battles are longer, and units have(/had) more clearly definite roles, whereas in Gaiden, mainy units are of the same classes, and the role between classes wasn't definitely as marked.

...Now that I think of it, Fatigue could mix well with Casual, actually. Having a Fatigue malus (or max Fatigue immediately) for a defeated unit would be an interresting penality.

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I'm probably going to use it to avoid frustrating resets from mistakes like accidentally placing weak units where enemies can reach them or overestimating how some units would handle enemies. Unexpected crits or misses are annoying as well.

I played casual mode/used occasional save states to avoid resetting after getting too far into a chapter and save time in my day (ain't got no time for FE 24/7) but I'll probably play classic this time.

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16 hours ago, AmericanBuizel said:

 


It looks very abusable and dumbed down like casual mode was. That's why I said that veteran fans weren't going to play this game legally. 

eh i disagree, taking an extra 50 turns or something because of a 1-2% crit or something stupid is not exactly the definition of fun or challenging. If you truly believe it to be abuse-able then just don't use it?

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So based on what I've seen here's how it seems to work:

  • Limited number of uses per map (at least 3)
  • Used to reverse a single action. So no reversing entire turns or anything like that.
  • Usable on both routes but unavailable until a certain point (unknown as of now)
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