What makes a FE story "good" or "bad"?

[Dragoncat]

A lot of people here have said Fates' story is bad or not as good as say, Tellius, which in turn, people say had a great story. So I'm just curious, what's the reasoning behind this? Things like Corrin getting too much praise for doing pretty much nothing also happened with Micaiah. Also people have said the blood pact thing in Tellius was badly done. So obviously Tellius doesn't have a perfect story, but what makes it so much better than Fates? It has more world building but that's the only thing I can think of, they both have flaws.

Or in general? What makes a story good or bad in FE?

[Into Oblivion]

I think it's just a matter of preference. I like the Tellius pieces and I like Fates. Now, I do see a difference between them, and I do think Fates could have improved its story a bit by looking to some of the old-school games. But to me, it's all personal taste or bias. Now, that's just my opinion.

And believe it or not, I don't mind the blood pact thing. They already had Pelleas set up as a perfect dupe for them, so now they wanted to make sure they could use him as their puppet ruler of Daein. What better way than to trick him into basically selling his soul to the Begnion Senate?

[Spinoson]

Well, I think it may have to do with that Fates the supports mostly creates the characters themselves rather then the story. For example, Charlotte's story isn't really told well within the story, but in her support conversations. But in her defense, she's not a major characters, but lets talk about a major character in the story of fates. We can say Azura is one of, if not, most important character in Fates. Yet if you think about it, she really doesn't have much going for her. All you really know is that she knows the secret of Valla and is a kidnapped Nohrian Princess. And from what I've read from her supports, she doesn't have much growth in her character. This could really be implied to all of the Royal Siblings.

Spoilers for Path of Radiance Below

 

 

 

 

Now, with a character like Ike, he goes through a lot of things in Path of Radiance. First, the death of his Father, which basically sets the whole game into motion. While Corrin does loses his mother, would it really change the game that much if she survived. Then, Ike learns about the Laguz tribes, and how they are treated wrongly by humans. This makes Ike grow into a respect of the Laguz and always protects them if he can. Then much later into the game, after Ike becomes a lord, he learns how his mother died and the secret of Mist's medallion. Now, lets compare this to the story of Conquest. Corrin joins Nohr, does a few missions for his father, then starts to lead the attack against Hoshido. While there is more to this story, this is pretty much it when it comes to Conquest.

 

While I do understand Support conversations do help characters in other Fire Emblem games with a great story, they just really was the icing on the cake. While with Fates, Support conversations are the cake. That's why I think Fates has a bad story, but that's just me.

[Rex Glacies]

Worldbuilding is the main problem, I think. While I never played the Tellius games, I understand that it had a more expansive world with interesting countries and realistic characters (well, as realistic as animal shapeshifters and dark-god-sealed-in-insanity-inducing-amulet can be).

But for me, one of the main problems with Fates was over hyping it, and a perceived false advertising. It was stated that, paraphrasing, in Conquest "you change the brutal country from the inside." However, as we all know, after Chapter 15 Corrin just sits back, kills people, and complains about Garon's evil. Then, in Revelations, it is revealed that Corrin isn't related to his Hoshidan siblings, which completely undermines the reason people would side with Hoshido in the first place.

[saisymbolic]

The same things that make a normal story bad also makes an FE story bad. A story is a story. Simple. Had Fates been under any other title, it likely would have gotten the same complaints about its characters and narrative - or that's what I believe.

While I do prefer the Tellius series, it isn't perfect like you said. However, the things that Tellius messed up with were minimal in comparison to what Fates did. The Blood Pact is nothing compared to the Crystal Orb, the Magic Throne and the Valla Word Curse.

Also, another point against Fates is the lack of world building. This is even more obvious because the game is split into three different perspectives. While the world building wasn't perfect in Tellius, it was leagues above what we got in Fates. We don't even know the name of the continent the game takes place in.

The portrayal of characters is one more thing. We have the infamous Xander, the son of Janus, as he has two different personalities during the story and during supports. There is Corrin, who is completely all over the place to me - a Blood Knight during Birthright and a pushover during Conquest. There is Gooron, the Play-Do King that was supposedly a good person before but we have no evidence other than heresy; he could have been implemented in some pretty interesting ways, but we didn't get that. There is also Sumeragi, the King stupid enough to bring his little kids to a diplomatic meeting with his sworn enemy. And, these are just a few of the problematic characters.

I'm saying all of this as a person who actually likes Fates, by the way, but I wouldn't be a true fan if I didn't acknowledge the numerous flaws that the games have.

Tellius isn't perfect, but neither is Fates.

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by saisymbolic
grammar

[Dragoncat]

I'm starting to see now, thanks guys. I prefer Tellius over Fates anyway xD

[Thane]

Comparing solely Tellius and Fates, the differences in their approach couldn't be greater. In addition to superior worldbuilding, Tellius also has better pacing and far more involvement from more characters which makes the world feel more alive - Fates tried this with the siblings, but more often than not it failed completely. Compare the Serenes Massacre to any subplot in Fates, for example. The Massacre gets properly described, we meet people responsible for it, people grieving over it and survivors from it - what subplots do we have in Fates that actually get any reasonable development?

Tellius really isn't perfect. The villains of Path of Radiance make me roll my eyes and Radiant Dawn falls in the same traps as both Awakening and Fates by biting off more than it could chew, but handles it better since it has the worldbuilding of PoR to fall back on.

However, the single biggest difference might be that both Tellius games had clear goals and themes and somewhat credibly achieved/explored them. Fates on the other hand was a game that was supposed to be about choice, family and a conflict between two countries, yet in the end the game didn't actually delve into any of those themes.

[Augestein]

IMO, I think what makes a FE plot good/great are these components. This is going to kinda be long so bear with me... 

1) Clear objectives for both the heroes and the villains they oppose. IE, Sacred Stones has Grado wanting to destroy the stones, and the protagonist's goal is simply to stop this from happening. The path splits reveal character motivations in subplots but the main plot is laid out and simple and are attributes that may not directly tie into the . Compare this to say... Radiant Dawn where there are a bunch of subplots that make up the main bulk of the plot. That's not to say that it's inherently bad to do this, but they DO NOT connect very well despite the writer's best attempts. Part 2 may "address" what happened in part 1, but part 2 does not happen because of part 1. It was pretty much its own story. The end result is that in order to involve everyone in part 3, poorly conceived plot points are needed to be crafted to cause 3 to happen, and by the time part 4 rolls around, there's no real way to fix all of the problems part 3 had and the story is just kinda of there. The villain's goals are finally revealed, and they are kind of a muddled mess in comparison to say... The clarity of Ashnard or Medeus. Ashnard's goal is clear, so the Tellius game can instead opt to focus on the character's an their own priorities and motivations because the villain is simple. 

Compare this to say Fates where the goals of the characters aren't clear. Who is our antagonist for Fates? Well, Garon could be construed as the villain for Fates, but the issue is that Garon's motivations aren't clear as the more you learn about him-- of what little there is, the more you realize that Garon isn't even really "Garon," so you're left wondering who , or what you're opposing. Or even if he's simply the victim. The reason that people say Birthright works is because it's considerably simpler. Garon = bad and as Corrin put it "pure evil," and the game never stops to question anything on this route. The story works better here because the only goal is to beat Nohr. It's still abysmal in its writing as motivations still aren't well done for some characters like say... Xander but it's still easier to stomach as a plot than Conquest personal bias aside, it's still more competently written even if it's not by much. 

2) Believable enough motivations on behalf of the characters. You know why people sometimes site they hate Nergal? Because Nergal doesn't even clearly remember what the hell he's doing. And there are several enough moments where Nergal could literally just rip half of the characters to shreds, gather the quintessence himself, get enough power to open the gates and overrun the entire continent of Elibe, but he doesn't... Because...? Because he might remember some shred of humanity? Oh wait, he doesn't because in Hector Mode getting all of the Gaiden chapters reveals that he doesn't remember why he wouldn't until you kill him. The end is that you're left scratching your head on what the hell is wrong with Nergal that he doesn't just make himself win when that's his goal. Compare that to Zephiel that is essentially doing the same thing as Nergal, but he makes a better villain because he does everything he can to accomplish his goal with no strange aspects stopping him from doing his goal.  

Fates does this too: Hey Azura, what's your goal? To not have Nohr and Hoshido fight? Well she not only fails to do this in 2/3 of the routes, but actively ensures that one of the countries gets destroyed.  Please, explain game, why did she do that? A plot curse? It didn't stop her in Revelations. What gives? Little things like this add up and are the reason that Fates' story kinda sucks. 

In other words, simple = good while complicated = bad. Fire Emblem games don't really work well with complex stories because every moment must inevitably dwindle down to the characters needing to take up arms against an opponent. Of which, there really isn't going to be much talking with your opponent at that point outside of reacting to their tactics and strategies. Had Fates simply been "pick a side: defeat the other side," this could have been a great story, but instead, it opts to muddle this by having Corrin try to save Hoshido by destroying Hoshido. Seriously, had Corrin joined Nohr and said "screw Hoshido, I hate it, and I'll never side against my family! Adoptive or no!" I think pretty much every problem with Conquest would have flown out of the window. If Corrin doesn't care about Hoshido's fate in this case, and I can even sympathize with him more in this regard. Even if it makes Corrin come across as a colossal jerk, it's believable that a person might do this. 

 

10 minutes ago, saisymbolic said:

While I do prefer the Tellius series, it isn't perfect like you said. However, the things that Tellius messed up with were minimal in comparison to what Fates did. The Blood Pact is nothing compared to the Crystal Orb, the Magic Throne and the Valla Word Curse.

 

I know I'm in the minority on this, and I don't really like either set of plot points, but I honestly find the BP to be worse than Valla's Word Curse. Valla's Word Curse IMO falls under a premise for Revelations' plot. It's stupid, but I can accept a dumb premise for a plot as opposed to simply a stupid plot point like the "Crystal Orb" or "The Magical Throne." Word Curse is basically like me saying "I want to make a story about a dog turning into an apple." It's absolutely idiotic in premise, but I'm walking in seeing this house of stupid. It's not something that totally blindsides the plot and retroactively changes character motivations and behaviors. 

[saisymbolic]

1 hour ago, Augestein said:

I know I'm in the minority on this, and I don't really like either set of plot points, but I honestly find the BP to be worse than Valla's Word Curse. Valla's Word Curse IMO falls under a premise for Revelations' plot. It's stupid, but I can accept a dumb premise for a plot as opposed to simply a stupid plot point like the "Crystal Orb" or "The Magical Throne." Word Curse is basically like me saying "I want to make a story about a dog turning into an apple." It's absolutely idiotic in premise, but I'm walking in seeing this house of stupid. It's not something that totally blindsides the plot and retroactively changes character motivations and behaviors. 

I mean, I can't fault you for that, though I still think the BP was minimal in comparison. Also, I am counting the Three Plot Tangles as a single entity. 

Like, I can tolerate a single plot convenience. But, back-to-back?

Spoiler

"There's a Crystal Ball that shows the true self like we're in Persona? What's Persona, you ask? Don't worry about it. Back to this Brystal Call. Okay fine. I'll accept it as proof. Let's show the othe-- Huh? It broke! Do you have another? What? You only have one? We can't get another one? O-oh. Oh, okay. Well, maybe it was an artifact by some super ancient Sorceror? I can accept there being only one in existence, sure. Sometimes, stuff like that happens in life. Coincidences, yeah? 

"What's that? Now you're telling me that Hoshido happens to have Magical Throne can do the same thing? O-kay? I suppose I can understand there being an object that can detect an impostor when sat upon, given that people can use magic to disguise themselves or whatever in this world. How come these aren't distributed to the rest of the nations again? Nohr needed one badly. Pardon? Nohr needed a reason to invade Hoshido? *sigh* Fine, whatever, Azura. 

"Okay, so about Va-- What? What do you mean we can't tell anyone about . . . the "V word" outside of its border because we'll disappear if we do? What proof is there? What? Your mom melted for doing that? Okay, but what proof do you have other than your word? Because I remember Ryoma said something about the "V word" when he was talking to Xander. I mean, I guess you could say we were in the "V word" because we jumped in by that point, but technically we weren't within its borders as support conversations take place in . . . the Astral Planes? The Support Base zone? We weren't in Valla at any rate. But wait. Didn't you tell Corrin he couldn't mention the "V word" even while you guys were in The Support Base zone? We're talking about the "V word" right now and I know we're not in "V word" but we haven't disappeared.

"What the hell, Azura?! When can we say it then!? What did you say!? The Astral Planes and the Support Base zone aren't canon!? What!? Then, where are we going between each battle!? I could have sworn Lilith took Corrin there back in Ch. 3! It was a part of the plot! What? Fates doesn't care about Lilith or the plot? That's why we're having an argument right now about "V words"? We should just stop talking about everything, you say? Just pretend our brains are mashed potatoes and just play the damn game already?

". . . I see. Perhaps, you're right about something, Azura."

Of course, that's an exaggeration. And, someone could probably do the same with the BP, to be honest.

But, my main problem with the VWC is that it unravels even more stuff when you question it. Yes, the BP morphed characters and their motivations. It was bad, but I can tolerate it. Overall, I hardly noticed it because the game did a pretty decent job at the other story elements. Fates doesn't even have that kind of backup, and it just loops around to the one of the main issues of Fates - a lack of world building and/or explanations. The Three Plot Tangles knot up everything else in the story, and it pulls a part everything at the seams. 

They all really are bad for real, though.

Edited March 26, 2017 by saisymbolic

[Slumber]

- Compelling character journies

- High stakes that justify the mechanics of the game

- Reasonable focus on multiple characters

- A main villain that isn't aggravating

- Good world building

- Well executed(Or at least believable)

The general checklist for me.

For SRPGs like FE, I also like politics to be a part of the world building.

Fates: Birthright doesn't hit a single point. Revelation only hits the "High stakes" part. Conquest has a semi-compelling character journey from Corrin, but it's really clumsy, and much like the other paths, Corrin gets 90% of the focus, and is a total Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

PoR/RD(Barring Micaiah's parts and the blood pact) hit pretty much all of them.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Dragrath]

For a fire emblem story like any other story there needs to be a overarching structure to it that justifies itself without too much suspension of disbelief. World building is key to this as the development of the world and cast are interconnected as shown best in FE 9  and FE 10(excluding the non-existent supports of RD) But really any of the past fire emblems with supports. By the characters discussing and reacting to the world around them we get to learn more about them and the world as a whole. 

This in turn makes us like the cast and begin to care about the world as things begin to unravel and develop. As events happen we are left with motivations reactions and general foreshadowing elements that are meant to keep the player engaged.

Fates notably didn't do any that as every bit of dialogue is just another moment of praising Corrin for no reason while we still have no reasonable motivations for really anyone and know next to nothing about the world of fates... (Not even the worlds name -_-) Then adding in the extremely generic supports and there is really a lack of any explanation or world building beyond the one liners that prep for a chapter at best. The game basically amounts to flailing in the dark and randomly being thrown at situations as characters act out of character constantly solely to move the plot along in a way that makes every character in the game seem absolutely incompetent or near brain dead.  Thus we are left with the complete lack of any redeemable qualities beyond lamenting about what could have been from the base line bullet points that IS tried to pass as "characterization" and "world building".

The TLDR is that regardless of the medium it is portrayed as a story has to be a story not a ill compiled mixmatch of unrelated garbage because you can't throw bullet points together and call it a story at the last minute.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Azura: Jump into Sweet Potato Valley, and you'll end up in the kingdom of Kiwi. In Kiwi is a Rutabaga named Apricot. Apricot is an ancient Rutabaga who once tasted good, but has now rotted. Apricot is manipulating the world via Coconut Water for evil purposes. If we leap into Sweet Potato Valley, that place between Nohr and Hoshido, we can then go and mash Apricot into jam with the Yato and thus end the food fight and save the world! Why am I speaking like this? Why, I'll be reduced to Coconut Water if I say what the real variety of any of these fruits and vegetables are.

Xander and Ryoma: Sounds very weird, but okay, we'll bite. Camilla, Hinoka- you can fly, go in there with Azura and Corrin before we ourselves leap to make sure Azura isn't lying!

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

Also- damn you Blood Pact, you ruined Naesala! Why couldn't Pelleas just have been surrounded by evil Senate advisers? It worked in Archanea with Grust (and kinda with Macedon- you don't want to defy the powerful Shadow Dragon), and again in Verdane in Jugdral.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Well this seems to be a Fates-bashing thread so start and end with the bad:

Spoiler

 

- Player avatar has the ultimate weapon and seal of flames float gently into his hands, can wield every weapon as any class, is fast friends with everybody, and the only people that dislike Corrin are brainwashed by a dark god. I tend to lose brain cells every time somebody says "Mary Sue" but Corrin seems like a safe assertion.

- No nuance with villains. Garon outright wants to kill you and for reasons clearly implicating some dark unseen force at play. Some characters claim he was once a kind man but they don't give us a single flashback sequence showing this. Even in Revelations where we get the parade of dead parents having their last words with the Royals, Garon's spirit does not show up.

- Lack of lore. The continent has no name and seemingly no history between the two countries past the point where Corrin is abducted. Revelation proposes the idea of three dragon gods, and that the three continents worship one each. But we see no evidence of such worship in Nohr and Hoshido. It's not known if the Vallite curse was in effect for all of the nation's history or just the period where Anankos is in control, because we hear a lot about Hoshidan and Nohr leaders vacationing here in secret.

- Nothing sacred about death. Lillith dies but still exists in a gameplay sense. Meanwhile the game refuses to write out any of the Royals who fall in battle, or their retainers, regardless of casual or classic mode. I don't mind this for the royals, but that's ~20 retainers with plot armor that don't need it.

- Supports and Story were allegedly written by two different teams. And both teams seemed unaware with the idea of My Castle existing in a different time-space that corrin and friends can enter at will with no repurcussions.

 

I DO think ragging on Fates is important so that we can demand better storytelling as fans. At the same time, I think most fans find this easier and more comfortable to do than to look at their favorite games honestly. And it doesn't help that how much you like a story and characters is totally subjective before it's objective. We normies, we don't have degrees in creative writing. We wait for somebody to articulate how they feel and just echo the parts that really resonate. What makes Fire Emblem stories good? I couldn't name a single one that I have no issues with.

[Extrasolar]

This is a topic that's close to my heart, since I consider myself a creative person and very much enjoy the art of storytelling, as well as writing stories of my own.

Like people have brought up before, a lot of people equate "good" with "complex," which isn't necessarily the case. For instance, with stories as simple as, say, Shadow Dragon, I'd be hard-pressed to call it a bad story. It's simple as hell: Good prince is forcibly exiled from his home, raises an army and battles across continent with allies, defeats evil sorcerer and evil reanimated dragon to save the world. Happy end...until New Mystery comes in to shake things up a little, but as a story it's completely fine. I'm not necessarily all that invested in it, but it's not really a bad story, because it establishes the situation, hits the main story parameters (running into obstacles, solving them, a couple of twists on the way, and then final confrontation and resolution), the good guys are acting sufficiently good, and it's is done. Simple as that.

Fates, on the other hand, tried to have its cake and eat it too. At first they tried to invoke what was meant to be a tough, heartwrenching choice, that no matter who you're choosing they'll be bad feelings and bad actions...except that's not the case at all. Siding with Hoshido is by all means the "right" choice; if Corrin sides with Nohr, they end up looking like nothing but a selfish, morally bankrupt hypocrite, as do the rest of the Nohrian royals. It doesn't help that they whine all path long about being Garon's attack dog when all of the siblings should be challenging Garon on his insanity without having to destroy an innocent kingdom in the process. At the same time, the mood isn't even consistent; you get the same lighthearted "hangin' out with the sibs and pals" moments while you're slaughtering innocents, and forcing the two princes of Hoshido to kill themselves despite just trying to defend their home. Corrin's in anguish and has an attempt at a "character arc," but it's not compelling, because they're the source of their own problems. You lose empathy with each of the royals, because despite fancying themselves good people, they fail to lift a single finger against Garon. And all this is the result of the writers chickening out on the premise: Conquest is meant to be the "villain campaign" that so many people wanted, but the writers themselves neglected making the protagonist and Nohrian characters, well, villains. You can't have morally upright people committing heinous acts and expect the audience to be get behind them. It just doesn't work; it's not consistent, it's not logical and it's not satisfying. I mean, even with Micaiah was ordering laguz hunts, it was consistent with how jaded and cold Micaiah had become over the game, you had a voice (Sothe) calling her out, and by that time, you had the Greil Mercenaries to side with on that particular action.

Fates worldbuilding was indeed bad, but personally I don't hold too much of this against it as far as making it a bad story; the majority of worldbuilding in FE is rather sparse, after all (we usually get "here is Y country, ruled by x, known for its y, friends with z, enemies with v" at the most, and many of FE's kingdoms and countries are rather generic or one-note in development). I'd argue that it's the characters from each of the countries that get us attached to them in the first place; Phoenicis and Kilvas are so sparsely developed as to be virtually irrelevant, but we still care about them because of Tibarn and Naesala, respectively, representing them.

Tellius worldbuilding is indeed a step up from the majority of games in the series, and one thing I point out it did better than Fates ever did: Shades of gray. Even in Path of Radiance, with Daein as the clear "aggressor" kingdom in the battle with Crimea, you still had Daein's new and exciting Social Darwinist policies letting commoners and nobodies rising up in prominence and importance. Not to mention, through Crimea was the "good" country, you saw that it was just as deeply racist as Daein and Begnion. The shades of gray expanded with RD - Daein wasn't the evil country many other FE countries are built up as. You ended up fighting for its freedom from the corrupt Begnion,

I would disagree that a story has to be simple to be considered good. There are plenty of more complex stories that are compelling and well-constructed; I'd argue that Radiant Dawn is on the whole a good, well-constructed story with a few pitfalls along the way (imo, Part II is far too short and undeveloped for what is meant to develop Crimea, the Crimean Knights and Elincia more; Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade being undeveloped characters and losing the spotlight to Ike and the Greil Mercenaries, Blood Pact shenanigans), but by the end, you have people from all four corners of the continent coming together to save the world in a way that feels believable and natural, and the conflict itself is epic. It tied up loose ends from the previous game (admittedly, those scenes were hard to unlock and see...but still...)

What makes a story "good" in my opinion is clear presence of a.) consistency, b.) satisfaction, and c.) logic.

• Consistency. When characters are acting inexplicably out of character (coughXandercough), when supposedly good people are doing evil things, etc., you lose immersion. Things aren't believable in their own universe anymore. You're confused.
• Satisfaction. When you're not satisfied, when you don't feel that the journey you've been on up to now leads to a worthwhile, logical, and fulfilling conclusion, you get annoyed and feel as though you've wasted your time. With no satisfaction,a story has little to no impact, and Fates' stories were indeed immediately forgettable to me after I had finished them.
• Logic. The first thing that starts hanging up a story are leaps in logic - why didn't this person do that? Why didn't they do that when they clearly had the chance, and they could have avoided y!

I mean, even Lyn's 10-chapter story in Blazing Blade is a satisfying, consistent story in and of itself; Lyn, starting out from a humble position, does a mini-journey across the continent, reclaims her birthright and fulfills her destiny, saves and reunites with her Grandfather, and everything is all good by the end. Lyn's story managed to do in 10 chapters what the Conquest path couldn't complete in more than two dozen. At the end of Conquest, an innocent kingdom was still pretty much destroyed, two of its princes are dead senselessly, and at the end of the day Corrin and the Nohrian siblings are absolves completely of any blame. That's absolutely frustrating.

I'll definitely agree that Birthright is the best-written and most satisfying of the paths, just due to the fact that it knew what it wanted to be and provided that. You're the bright, good kingdom fighting off the crazy evil kingdom. No strings attached, all the good characters and the good protagonist are acting in a manner expected of good people. Now, it's definitely not perfect, but at no point does it insult its audience's expectations or intelligence. And the ending, sure, with Xander and Elise's deaths may be sad (not so much, when you're just annoyed after knowing how out of character Xander is from his supports), but at the end of the day, you've saved thousands of lives and preserved an innocent kingdom. Happy, satisfying end.

21 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

And it doesn't help that how much you like a story and characters is totally subjective before it's objective. We normies, we don't have degrees in creative writing.

Likes and dislikes are indeed subjective, but you don't have to be a chef to know when the food you're eating is awful. In much the same way, you don't have to be a professional writer to know when the writing of a particular story in subpar, as is the writing for Fates.

21 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

What makes Fire Emblem stories good? I couldn't name a single one that I have no issues with.

Sure, every FE has its problems, and some more than others. A "good" story doesn't mean there's no issues whatsoever (and there's absolutely no such thing as a perfect story), but that any issues that are there are comparatively minor or few while the good things are up front and clearly visible. Fates has far more poor writing decisions than good ones (thus while people call it badly-written on the whole), while I'd argue that the Tellius games have more good writing decisions than poor ones (thus why people call them well-written on the whole).

Edited March 26, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

I DO think ragging on Fates is important so that we can demand better storytelling as fans. At the same time, I think most fans find this easier and more comfortable to do than to look at their favorite games honestly. And it doesn't help that how much you like a story and characters is totally subjective before it's objective. We normies, we don't have degrees in creative writing. We wait for somebody to articulate how they feel and just echo the parts that really resonate. What makes Fire Emblem stories good? I couldn't name a single one that I have no issues with.

To be fair, it is always easier to criticize in detail what is wrong, than to define what is right and should be in similar levels of detail. We moderns aren't the first (I can give a decent example if need be).

I tried a full blown rewriting of Fates myself, and even after months of revising my Conquest version, I still always felt it needed work. I always took issue with anything that didn't seem perfectly logical or seemed too much like a deus ex machina, and making sure everything was consistent. It wasn't easy, and it still has its flaws.

Any plot is going to require at least a couple leaps of faith/suspensions of logic. And these it seems: Nergal's inactivity, the Blood Pact, and most of Fates are what is so damned. Not to excuse the instances when they were done horribly however.

[Anacybele]

What makes an FE story good? Well, pretty much what would make any story good. Characters that develop, have good personalities, and are relatable. A world that feels real and thought out and deep. And a plot that makes sense, has interesting ideas, no holes, stuff like that.

The problems with the stories in Awakening and Fates is that they force too many things. The story should create the characters, not simply the supports as said above. And the Avatars are praised too much. Awakening's story has holes (but then again, I think a lot of time travel stories do because time travel is stupid nonsense and hard to work with) and feels rushed, like it's trying to do too many things at once. Fates's story, while I thought Birthright was okay, it still lacked depth and world-building. I can't speak for Conquest or Revelation though, as I didn't play the former and I haven't played much of the latter.

Though for FE in particular, it's also something about originality. Chrom doesn't feel original or fresh as a main character at all, at least not compared to Ike. Chrom's...another blue-haired sword prince. I guess he kinda feels like he's trying to blend Marth and Ike, two of the most popular lords. But what's interesting about him? He doesn't really grow or develop either, and he can even be interpreted as hypocritical because of some of the writing and I doubt the writers were going for that.

Now look at Ike. He's the first for a lot of things in the series! First non-noble/royal. First not to have a marriage in the game at all (even if I WOULD have liked him to get one with Elincia... I do admit it is fresh to see a lord that doesn't marry in the game or maybe not even at all). First to inherit his hair color from his mother rather than his father as far as we know. lol And he actually grows and develops in PoR's story. He sadly didn't get anymore in RD, but I still think his fresh personality was kept intact. What other lords are very passionate, blunt, noble-hating big eating muscleheads? XD

Edited March 27, 2017 by Anacybele

[Slumber]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

What other lords are very passionate, blunt, noble-hating big eating muscleheads? XD

I mean, barring noble-hating(Due to EVERY lord in the series being a noble aside from Ike), Hector.

[Augestein]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

I would disagree that a story has to be simple to be considered good

For Fire Emblem, I honestly would. There simply isn't enough time to make a well crafted plot when every stretch of the game demands that you fight. Take something like Saga Frontier 2 for instance. Gustav's path is actually pretty well written all things considered. But if you'll notice, Gustav's path has very little fighting in comparison to Wil Knights' arc. And all of the bad parts of the story are definitely from Wil Knights.

 

Sure you have Gustav dying in a rather lame unceremonious way, but that's the thing, dude left behind an incredible legacy. The plot only gets messed up with Fake Gustav when they try to tie the Gustav plot into the Wil Knights plot. And it sucks. A lot.  

 

It's why plots like FE1 work so well, because it gives the player an excuse to fight without bogging the plot down with a bunch of nonsense. Crafting a compelling story where diplomacy absolutely cannot be used in any way, really puts a damper on things. No Fire Emblem game for instance is going to have you hire a hitman to track down key faction leaders and end them before they pull off a coup de grace on your lord unit. It'd be awesome, and things like that would add some interesting depth... But sadly, I don't know how you'd make that fun in a Fire Emblem game. 

1 hour ago, saisymbolic said:

I mean, I can't fault you for that, though I still think the BP was minimal in comparison. Also, I am counting the Three Plot Tangles as a single entity. 

 

Fair enough. If that's the case, yeah, I can see how they can etch out a little more ire than the BP. Both are pretty wretched so 1 being worse is like choosing which arm you'd rather lose. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Augestein

[Anacybele]

20 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I mean, barring noble-hating(Due to EVERY lord in the series being a noble aside from Ike), Hector.

Where is Hector said to be really passionate, muscular (or at least as muscular as RD Ike) or a big eater? Is it in a support I never looked at or something? He just comes off to me as brash and unrefined.

Also, you still said barring noble-hating.

11 minutes ago, Augestein said:

For Fire Emblem, I honestly would. There simply isn't enough time to make a well crafted plot when every stretch of the game demands that you fight.

I disagree. Tellius isn't what I'd call simple and it's very good, imo.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Anacybele

[Slumber]

13 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Where is Hector said to be muscular (or at least as muscular as RD Ike) or a big eater? Is it in a support I never looked at or something?

Hector's highest growth is strength, and one of the few cutscenes in the game is him lifting Nils out of nowhere and raising him up to his shoulders for a shoulder ride, AND he has some of the highest con(The stat that more or less expresses how ripped a character is) in the game, being beaten by only Oswin and Hawkeye, he TIES Dorcas, who is more muscular than Ike, and beats out Bartre, who also is beefier than PoR Ike. Obviously you don't see giant muscles on Hector, because he wears armor that covers his arms and torso.

As for the big eater, yeah, he doesn't show that, either. But it's not like a cornerstone of Ike's character. It's just a gag that shows up whenever the army talks about eating(Comparatively, eating IS a big part of Ilyana's character). Ike doesn't show up to anyone and go "I'm gonna eat you to death!".

Edited March 27, 2017 by Slumber

[Anacybele]

Just now, Slumber said:

Hector's highest growth is strength, and one of the few cutscenes in the game is him lifting Nils out of nowhere and raising him up to his shoulders for a shoulder ride, AND he has some of the highest con(The stat that more or less expresses how ripped a character is) in the game, being beaten by only Oswin and Hawkeye, he TIES Dorcas, who is more muscular than Ike, and beats out Bartre, who also is beefier than PoR Ike. Obviously you don't see giant muscles on Hector, because he wears armor that covers his arms and torso.

As for the big eater, yeah, he doesn't show that, either. But it's not like a cornerstone of Ike's character. It's just a gag that shows up whenever the army talks about eating(Comparatively, eating IS a big part of Ilyana's character).

A high strength growth doesn't mean the character is muscular. Look at RD Rolf. Kid is small and thin and he has one of the highest str growths in the game! And Hector's art doesn't really make him look that ripped to me. he probably has some muscle on him, but not as much as RD Ike does, I would say.

Actually, Ike's thing for food and in particular, meat, is brought up several times throughout the Tellius games. First time: Ike telling Oscar he loves his food. Second time: Soren telling Aimee she should cook food, mainly spicy meat dishes, to get Ike's attention. Third time: Ike telling Tibarn that he's interested in the foods they eat in Phoenicis. And that's all just in PoR.

In RD, there's the whole conversation between Titania, Oscar, and Lethe about Ike's appetite. Food isn't the biggest part of Ike's character, yeah, but it's not as small as you might think.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

12 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Where is Hector said to be really passionate, muscular (or at least as muscular as RD Ike) or a big eater? Is it in a support I never looked at or something? He just comes off to me as brash and unrefined.

 

Passionate enough to throw his life away for his friend by choosing to wield Armads. As for muscular, several of the CG artwork in the game depicts him towering over other characters in height and girth and he often mentions taking to sparring over his classes as a child. Also I missed it somewhere in the previous walls of text, but when did somebody assert that beefcakes and big eaters are compelling? Isn't the latter why we don't like Illyana?

[Augestein]

22 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I disagree. Tellius isn't what I'd call simple and it's very good, imo.

It is simple. It's quite literally the Hero's Journey: Fire Emblem Edition. It just has a lot of nice things like base conversations and decent character interaction to help make it more enjoyable. 

 

As for Hector, take a look at that mountain of muscle for Fire Emblem 6. FE7 Hector is buffer than FE9 Ike, but FE6 Hector is a slab! Even FE7 Hector is pretty big though... Look at how tiny Farina looks in that ending picture with them. Or heck, Florina! He's totally holding her on his shoulder. If I tried that with a woman I'd be crushed. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Augestein

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Augestein said:

It is simple. It's quite literally the Hero's Journey: Fire Emblem Edition. It just has a lot of nice things like base conversations and decent character interaction to help make it more enjoyable.

...??? But it's not simple? There's so much going on in the story. Racism issues, corrupt nobles, power struggles, etc. It's anything BUT simple.

Well yeah, Hector is buffer than PoR Ike, but not RD Ike, I'm pretty sure.

4 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

Passionate enough to throw his life away for his friend by choosing to wield Armads. As for muscular, several of the CG artwork in the game depicts him towering over other characters in height and girth and he often mentions taking to sparring over his classes as a child. Also I missed it somewhere in the previous walls of text, but when did somebody assert that beefcakes and big eaters are compelling? Isn't the latter why we don't like Illyana?

Ilyana's eating habits are taken to the extreme. Like unrealistic extreme, truth be told. Ike's appetite is not exaggerated so much.

[Slumber]

14 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

A high strength growth doesn't mean the character is muscular. Look at RD Rolf. Kid is small and thin and he has one of the highest str growths in the game! And Hector's art doesn't really make him look that ripped to me. he probably has some muscle on him, but not as much as RD Ike does, I would say.

Actually, Ike's thing for food and in particular, meat, is brought up several times throughout the Tellius games. First time: Ike telling Oscar he loves his food. Second time: Soren telling Aimee she should cook food, mainly spicy meat dishes, to get Ike's attention. Third time: Ike telling Tibarn that he's interested in the foods they eat in Phoenicis. And that's all just in PoR.

In RD, there's the whole conversation between Titania, Oscar, and Lethe about Ike's appetite. Food isn't the biggest part of Ike's character, yeah, but it's not as small as you might think.

 

I feel like you skimmed my post. If you didn't, then sorry for assuming, but it really seems like you missed the general points I was going for.

The point about his strength growth was literally a fraction of a sentence. My focus in that post was on Hector's Con, which does actually correlate to the size of a character. Hector beats out Bartre(BIG musclehead) in Con. Hector only loses to Oswin and walking steak Hawkeye. So if you want to hazard a guess as to how big/muscular Hector is, he's bigger than Bartre, smaller than Hawkeye. About the same as Dorcas.

Again, Ike's appetite is a thing that comes up when the army talks about food, and only then. It's support flavoring, and while Ike really likes food, obviously, it's not something I think Ike even considers. He just eats a lot, and then doesn't think about food until it's brought up. It's not something that comes up in the main plot ever. Ike doesn't chew out Sanaki and then immediately go "Ya got any meat?" He doesn't beat the Black Knight and then go "Yeah! Time to celebrate with a whole cow!" That IS, however, something Ilyana could do, where again, eating actually is a cornerstone of her personality.

For Ike, it's support/base convo flavoring. Yeah, when Ike isn't present and his army is goofing off, it's something that comes up. I'm not denying that it's a part of his character to some degree, but he wouldn't be really that different of a character at all if it was never brought up. You take away Ike being strong, loyal, or his disdain for nobles? Actually would change most interactions he has.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Slumber