What makes a FE story "good" or "bad"?

[Tuvy]

Lyon makes a FE story good

[Extrasolar]

20 minutes ago, Thane said:

Does it? Why not make more use of the available characters? Why make it so one-sided in the first place if they want to delve into the theme of fantasy hatred and overcoming it?

Yeah. When they have more human characters to work with, they logically have to bring out more character traits to fill them all out. Not to mention, the backstory of the game paints the humans as the assholes in the first place, so more assholes humans makes sense if that's what they're trying to go for.

I'll agree that the black and white portrayal is a little counterproductive to "we all used to be one people, and now we should all get along again" message that they're trying to portray, since the laguz don't have anything to apologize for. If anything, a lot of them look too downright nice in how quick they forgive the beorc. I can completely understand the black and white, many more asshole humans thing because of the trap they wrote themselves into, and not wanting to start the victim blaming train...but yeah, muddying the waters with a little more laguz being reprehensible as well would have made the "everyone is being an obstinate asshole about this and just needs to chill out and be friends" moral a lot, lot more compelling. That is a writing flaw there.

The only bad thing the laguz have really done in the conflict is completely ignore the Branded, but the beorc despise them as well, so it's not much.

20 minutes ago, Thane said:

However, it's not so simple as just chalking the villains down to why they did what they did; I think one of the Black Knight's main problems is the fact that he's just so unbearably boring.

Oh god, please keep Ashnard away from my Zelgius. I mean... Ashnard had potential as an interesting and nuanced villain (he at least practices what he preaches as far as his crazy extreme Social Darwinism angle, but...a lot of the time they shove him back into that "one-note asshole" box that he had a chance of escaping from). Ashnard as a villain is definitely a flaw in Path of Radiance's writing, especially in the fact that he and Ike had absolutely nothing to do with each other until the last chapter. Forever wishing the Zelgius fight had been the final battle of the game because that at least makes sense

This could be my propensity for adoring characters with tragic backstories (especially characters with rather understated, quiet personalities like Zelgius'), but I'm more receptive to Zelgius' sympathetic backstory than many others as I've seen, while I can see how it can come off as last-minute BS to people who don't get invested in it. Though yeah, he's a complete butt in Path of Radiance for the most part, but I find his RD incarnation to be sympathetic and compelling; I'm just really interested in his nihilism, abandonment and loneliness, and his relationship with Sephiran and Gawain.

...Though in all honesty, yeah, Zelgius is sort of flatter than a piece of paper without Sephiran, Ike, or something like that to bounce off of now that I think about it. We only get real development with him and Sephiran in his flashback backstory scenes. I guess those were just amazingly well done to stick him out in my mind idk

20 minutes ago, Thane said:

At least we can agree it's not Fates.

Basically this.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Thane]

26 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Yeah. When they have more human characters to work with, they logically have to bring out more character traits to fill them all out. Not to mention, the backstory of the game paints the humans as the assholes in the first place, so more assholes humans makes sense if that's what they're trying to go for.

I'll agree that the black and white portrayal is a little counterproductive to "we all used to be one people, and now we should all get along again" message that they're trying to portray, since the laguz don't have anything to apologize for. If anything, a lot of them look too downright nice in how quick they forgive the beorc. I can completely understand the black and white, many more asshole humans thing because of the trap they wrote themselves into, and not wanting to start the victim blaming train...but yeah, muddying the waters with a little more laguz being reprehensible as well would have made the "everyone is being an obstinate asshole about this and just needs to chill out and be friends" moral a lot, lot more compelling. That is a writing flaw there.

The only bad thing the laguz have really done in the conflict is completely ignore the Branded, but the beorc despise them as well, so it's not much.

That's what I mean. If there are fewer Laguz, there should've been more people like Naesala - who gets an excuse for being an asshat in Radiant Dawn any way. Now, I do love me some Naesala, but he alone can't represent everything wrong with the Laguz. Like you say, it's counterproductive to have the overwhelming majority of the ones we meet be good guys and fight so many awful humans and have the Laguz be the victims of racism and slavery while preaching mutual understanding. It sort of loses its edge when the Laguz might as well just say "you should be more like us". 

26 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Oh god, please keep Ashnard away from my Zelgius. I mean... Ashnard had potential as an interesting and nuanced villain (he at least practices what he preaches as far as his crazy extreme Social Darwinism angle

Does he? He pretty much gets told "this is how you win the war" by his advisors and then he does the opposite. He uses magical artifacts he was randomly given to make himself invulnerable, thus sort of making his whole adrenaline and lust for battle thing meaningless since he's effectively invincible save for plot swords, and he doesn't care if the world gets drowned. The guy's almost as inefficient as Nergal.

Also, this social Darwinism pretty much only surfaces in his battle quotes. There's also Sothe's comment about him removing restrictions from becoming a knight, but that's not exactly social Darwinism. They basically save half the guy's lines to battle quotes, and even though they're good, it's pretty pathetic for the big bad.

I would say that my man Walhart is Ashnard done right, but he also suffers from way too little screen time. At least the guy makes sense though.

26 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

This could be my propensity for adoring characters with tragic backstories (especially characters with rather understated, quiet personalities like Zelgius'), but I'm more receptive to  Zelgius' sympathetic backstory than many others as I've seen, while I can see how it can come off as last-minute BS to people who don't get invested in it. 

That's the thing, he feels completely different from how he was in Path of Radiance. I also like tragic backstories, but randomly bringing it up just before a fight to make us feel bad is cheap, not to mention I think he comes across like a bit of a tool in the flashbacks.

26 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I'm just really interested his nihilism, abandonment and loneliness, and his relationship with Sephiran and Gawain.

You mean with the guy he murdered for shits and giggles?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Thane

[Extrasolar]

7 minutes ago, Thane said:

Does he? He pretty much gets told "this is how you win the war" by his advisors and then he does the opposite. He uses magical artifacts he was randomly given to make himself invulnerable, thus sort of making his whole adrenaline and lust for battle thing meaningless since he's effectively invincible save for plot swords, and he doesn't care if the world gets drowned. The guy's almost as inefficient as Nergal.

Also, this social Darwinism pretty much only surfaces in his battle quotes. There's also Sothe's comment about him removing restrictions from becoming a knight, but that's not exactly social Darwinism. They basically save half the guy's lines to battle quotes, and even though they're good, it's pretty pathetic for the big bad.

I would say that my man Walhart is Ashnard done right, but he also suffers from way too little screen time.

I think Ashnard definitely had potential and could have been one of FE's more interesting, nuanced villains...that is, if they had emphasized the traits that made him stand out from other FE villains in the first place, rather than simplifying him into the rather easy "cackling jackass who wants everything to burn" villain that he ended up being in practice.

I brought up purely social Darwinism, but I wish they had focused on Ashnard's Daein being crazy progressive by the standards of the time (when Branded like Petrine can be in high positions, you know it's a huge deal, not to mention Shinon trying to join Begnion after deserting Ike and company, but falling in with Daein because they're the only ones who would take him into the army, and Ashnard staffing a dragon laguz as a strategist in hella racist Daein).

If Ashnard had been more understated, more calculating...he could have still been as cold or overbearing, but if he'd explained his actions by saying "The old world order (where you're born = your destiny; nobles are better than commoners, beorc are better than laguz, etc.) is basically stupid and sucks, and individuals with enough ambition and strength should decide where they end up, weaker people be damned" more, then I'd say he'd be a much more compelling villain. He'd be extremist, yeah, but he wouldn't necessarily be a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag like he is in the game proper.

That would be a far better-written Ashnard; the audience could even agree with and emphasize with his points at certain stages, but they're not given enough screen time or appreciation to do so, and Ashnard himself falls back into one-note asshole villain.

13 minutes ago, Thane said:

That's the thing, he feels completely different from how he was in Path of Radiance. I also like tragic backstories, but randomly bringing it up just before a fight to make us feel bad is cheap, not to mention I think he comes across like a bit of a tool in the flashbacks.

Fair point. Zelgius definitely could have done with more (and quicker) development; wish we'd gotten some indications of his backstory in Path of Radiance, or at least seen some of the cracks in his veneer.

As for him being a tool, yeah, I'll agree with that, but I think it's justified, considering the guy has literally no one else to turn to and no one else cares about his fate at all, nor does he really seem to care what happens to the world or those that inhabit it. Him following every one of Sephiran's orders and doing awful things because of it makes sense.

...and at least it's not as ridiculously stupid as Xander, having his siblings and friends to fall back on and claiming that he's in fact NOT a slave to Garon in supports...despite being a slave to Garon in the game itself. Zelgius being a tool >>>>>> Xander being a tool. Lol.

17 minutes ago, Thane said:

You mean the guy he murdered for shits and giggles?

Well, Gawain was still his mentor way back in the day. I imagine that Zelgius looked up to him and Gawain was one of two people to care about Zelgius at all before he up and left. This may be me writing a fan fiction here, but I can see Zelgius being kind of bitter and hurt about that one, to the point that his reuniting with Gawain had a lot of anger behind it.

Still doesn't excuse him killing him though, just think that in context it makes sense.

[Thane]

10 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I think Ashnard definitely had potential and could have been one of FE's more interesting, nuanced villains...that is, if they had emphasized the traits that made him stand out from other FE villains in the first place, rather than simplifying him into the rather easy "cackling jackass who wants everything to burn" villain that he ended up being in practice.

I brought up purely social Darwinism, but I wish they had focused on Ashnard's Daein being crazy progressive by the standards of the time (when Branded like Petrine can be in high positions, you know it's a huge deal, not to mention Shinon trying to join Begnion after deserting Ike and company, but falling in with Daein because they're the only ones who would take him into the army, and Ashnard staffing a dragon laguz as a strategist in hella racist Daein).

If Ashnard had been more understated, more calculating...he could have still been as cold or overbearing, but if he'd explained his actions by saying "The old world order (where you're born = your destiny; nobles are better than commoners, beorc are better than laguz, etc.) is basically stupid and sucks, and individuals with enough ambition and strength should decide where they end up, weaker people be damned" more, then I'd say he'd be a much more compelling villain. He'd be extremist, yeah, but he wouldn't necessarily be a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag like he is in the game proper.

That would be a far better-written Ashnard; the audience could even agree with and emphasize with his points at certain stages, but they're not given enough screen time or appreciation to do so, and Ashnard himself falls back into one-note asshole villain.

Sounds like I need to inform you about our lord and savior Walhart. He fights for a world of man, not of gods! 

Seriously though, I agree. However, the most interesting thing about Ashnard is that he's all about that meritocracy, but as for the whole social Darwinism thing, it's hard to take him seriously when he keeps making the wrong moves in the end. It's like he didn't even want to win.

12 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Fair point. Zelgius definitely could have done with more (and quicker) development; wish we'd gotten some indications of his backstory in Path of Radiance, or at least seen some of the cracks in his veneer.

As for him being a tool, yeah, I'll agree with that, but I think it's justified, considering the guy has literally no one else to turn to and no one else cares about his fate at all, nor does he really seem to care what happens to the world or those that inhabit it. Him following every one of Sephiran's orders and doing awful things because of it makes sense.

And there we have it. These kinds of characters are, to me, impossible to connect to and are pretty much the least interesting you could ever write. If they don't care about anything, then why should we? 

14 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

...and at least it's not as ridiculously stupid as Xander, having his siblings and friends to fall back on and claiming that he's in fact NOT a slave to Garon in supports...despite being a slave to Garon in the game itself. Zelgius being a tool >>>>>> Xander being a tool. Lol.

We've already got Serenes' Law which states that all plot-related threads must devolve into debating Conquest, but I say we need a rule that prohibits making comparisons to Fates when it's not relevant because, let's be honest here, it's cheating. 

15 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Well, Gawain was still his mentor way back in the day. I imagine that Zelgius looked up to him and Gawain was one of two people to care about Zelgius at all before he up and left. This may be me writing a fan fiction here, but I can see Zelgius being kind of bitter and hurt about that one, to the point that his reuniting with Gawain had a lot of anger behind it.

Still doesn't excuse him killing him though, just think that in context it makes sense.

RIght but...is that actually something that's even alluded to?

[Etrurian emperor]

I think there are three reasons why a villain likes Alvis gets damaged less from being presented sympathetic than the black knight. 

The most important reason is that Alvis is presented pretty early as having noble goals and that he is willing to go through great lengths to achieve them. Its not a surprise we find out after countless of heinous acts and out of character moments that he's suddenly supposed to be sympathetic. Alvis ideal really is worth striving for but its the kinda terrible person carrying those ideals out that is the problem. His worst moments can be argued to stem from his own personal failings rather then the ideology behind those actions. Those personal failings are also implied to be there very early on. Azel who Alvis claims to love is terrified of him and their terrible childhood is also known as early as Augustria. The lopt sect also  namedrop him as their ally. 

The second reason is that Alvis intentions really are noble. He wants a peaceful world where no one will be persecuted. I wouldn't say he's a selfless individual because of course he isn't, he thinks he's entitled to another man's wife and pretty much parades said wife in front of Sigurd. But the intentions are good.

Those of the black knight aren't. He kills Greil solely to satisfy his own ego. His death wasn't needed and Sephiran says he never gave an order for Greil's death. Its just murder for a very petty reason.

The third reasons is that Alvis failings don't really clash with anything we know about him. As I said, the ideal is good, but the person carrying them out is a terrible guy. We know this and any wrong thing Alvis does is either deemed a sacrifice for the greater good or a result of how messed up he is. Its all consistent with what we know about Alvis. 

But the black knight claims he never kills anyone if he can avoids it while at the same time its made clear Greil's death could be avoided and wasn't needed. There's no way for the black knight who threatens to torture a little girl doesn't clash with the honorable Zelgius. Nothing what Zelgius says or does is consistent with any action or statement of the black knight. The only thing they share is a warrior code and even that is a different one. Zelgius is a professional soldier and ''last true knight'' while the Black Knight seems more of a pure warrior or 'bloodknight'' as tvtrope would say it. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Etrurian emperor

[Extrasolar]

26 minutes ago, Thane said:

And there we have it. These kinds of characters are, to me, impossible to connect to and are pretty much the least interesting you could ever write. If they don't care about anything, then why should we? 

Fair enough. I just feel sorry for the guy, considering he could have been someone much better should he not have committed the grave crime of his uncontrollable birth as the "wrong" species in a world that shunned Branded just for existing, I find him compelling and sympathetic.

26 minutes ago, Thane said:

RIght but...is that actually something that's even alluded to?

I'll give you what Zelgius himself says of the matter.

Quote

"True, your revenge against me remains incomplete. However, may I ask you to step aside for now? Though at different times, Ike and I both learned the way of the sword from the same master: one of Daein’s famous Four Riders, General Gawain. He left Daein under an assumed name and formed a mercenary company. I was entranced by Greil’s swordsmanship while he was in Daein. I studied under him, I fought next to him… I idolized him. When he left, I was crushed. I vowed to find him again, and challenge him to a duel. I had to know if I had surpassed him! Three years ago, I caught up to Greil. I challenged him to a duel, and was victorious. But, something was wrong… The fight had been too simple. I thought I’d never feel satisfaction again. Then, Ike told me why it had been so easy. Greil had severed all the tendons in his right hand, and swore never again to draw a blade. Can you imagine my joy at the news? I knew that a swordsman of his stature couldn’t have been so easy to defeat!"

Basically, Zelgius wasn't out for blood in his fight with Gawain, but simply wanted to prove himself worthy next to someone he practically worshipped. He was, by his own admission, crushed at Gawain's leaving...though this may be less out of personal affection for the man himself, and more out of the fact that Zelgius really has no concept of self-worth other than his swordsmanship skills, since his status as a Branded meant that to everyone else save Ashnard and Sephiran, he was garbage just for existing.

This is becoming even more tragic, now that I'm re-reading all of this stuff...we definitely could have used more of this earlier in the Tellius series. Zelgius was selfish in a lot of ways, but I have a hard time blaming him in particular for it, because he just never built empathy or close bonds with anyone else. I mean, the guy's own family rejected him for being a Branded, to start with...

Edited March 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Thane]

9 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Fair enough/ I just feel sorry for the guy, considering he could have been someone much better should he not have committed the grave crime of his uncontrollable birth as the "wrong" species in a world that shunned Branded just for existing, I find him compelling and sympathetic.

Sure, but it's not a factor in Path of Radiance and is only revealed at the end of Radiant Dawn. Hell I find Nah's backstory - which shares similar elements - to be better executed because at least it explains her personality. 

9 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I'll give you what Zelgius himself says of the matter.

I'm sorry but I really think we'll need to agree to disagree here. The way I read it is that in spite of their history, and more importantly in spite of Ike and Mist, Zelgius kills Greil because he wanted to know if he had surpassed his master. Not in a friendly sparring session, but in a duel to the death, wearing armor that renders him invincible, in the dead of night. 

And then he has the gall of complaining it was too easy. The guy pisses me off, and for all the wrong reasons.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Thane

[Interdimensional Observer]

As I stated before, the BK may have just let the fun of fighting his old master go a little too far. Extrasolar's quoted dialogue definitely has the possibility of that being the case. At the same time, he had to be willing to kill Greil even if he didn't want to because he was there to get the medallion for Ashnard, and he couldn't let Greil get in the way of that. That he left without actually obtaining the medallion could be owed to not expecting Ike to rise up and thinking he could have just made an easy warp powdered return for it later.

As for the threats to Mist, they were could have been hollow, not that it would have made difference to Greil (which is why he made the threats). It seems that Zelgius was beyond blind respect for his old master by the time he serves Ashnard.

*Warps out of this topic before the next volley is fired.*

[Dragrath]

32 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I think Ashnard definitely had potential and could have been one of FE's more interesting, nuanced villains...that is, if they had emphasized the traits that made him stand out from other FE villains in the first place, rather than simplifying him into the rather easy "cackling jackass who wants everything to burn" villain that he ended up being in practice.

I brought up purely social Darwinism, but I wish they had focused on Ashnard's Daein being crazy progressive by the standards of the time (when Branded like Petrine can be in high positions, you know it's a huge deal, not to mention Shinon trying to join Begnion after deserting Ike and company, but falling in with Daein because they're the only ones who would take him into the army, and Ashnard staffing a dragon laguz as a strategist in hella racist Daein).

If Ashnard had been more understated, more calculating...he could have still been as cold or overbearing, but if he'd explained his actions by saying "The old world order (where you're born = your destiny; nobles are better than commoners, beorc are better than laguz, etc.) is basically stupid and sucks, and individuals with enough ambition and strength should decide where they end up, weaker people be damned" more, then I'd say he'd be a much more compelling villain. He'd be extremist, yeah, but he wouldn't necessarily be a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag like he is in the game proper.

That would be a far better-written Ashnard; the audience could even agree with and emphasize with his points at certain stages, but they're not given enough screen time or appreciation to do so, and Ashnard himself falls back into one-note asshole villain.

Fair point. Zelgius definitely could have done with more (and quicker) development; wish we'd gotten some indications of his backstory in Path of Radiance, or at least seen some of the cracks in his veneer.

As for him being a tool, yeah, I'll agree with that, but I think it's justified, considering the guy has literally no one else to turn to and no one else cares about his fate at all, nor does he really seem to care what happens to the world or those that inhabit it. Him following every one of Sephiran's orders and doing awful things because of it makes sense.

...and at least it's not as ridiculously stupid as Xander, having his siblings and friends to fall back on and claiming that he's in fact NOT a slave to Garon in supports...despite being a slave to Garon in the game itself. Zelgius being a tool >>>>>> Xander being a tool. Lol.

Well, Gawain was still his mentor way back in the day. I imagine that Zelgius looked up to him and Gawain was one of two people to care about Zelgius at all before he up and left. This may be me writing a fan fiction here, but I can see Zelgius being kind of bitter and hurt about that one, to the point that his reuniting with Gawain had a lot of anger behind it.

Still doesn't excuse him killing him though, just think that in context it makes sense.

I think these points show that FE more or less has difficulty conveying villains I agree Ashnard could have come across far better if more emphasis was placed on his policies. As for that "blessed" armor am I not the only one who gets a suspicious feeling about that? It really didn't do the story any justice after all and it kinda makes the story go off the rail in the end by forcing Ike into a final confrontation without any real build up.  I just hope that if remakes are made for the games they will try and better develop the characters. Tellius is indeed the least horribly butchered story but like every other game in the series. 

As for Zelgius it could have been much better if IS had better hinted at there being more at play. You can see the hints at RD story line a little bit but the characterization to me felt back peddled (though as others have mentioned this is not new for the series) Once again the "blessed" armor seems to have hurt the story more than not. 

IS  has shown they have pretty good starting ideas but they haven't been able to pull of a concise story always slipping up somewhere. This probably represents something of their internal organization however not sure what else to say in regards to this. I hope IS will be able to learn from their mistakes and invest more time into getting things consistent but I will not count on it.

[Extrasolar]

27 minutes ago, Thane said:

I'm sorry but I really think we'll need to agree to disagree here. The way I read it is that in spite of their history, and more importantly in spite of Ike and Mist, Zelgius kills Greil because he wanted to know if he had surpassed his master. Not in a friendly sparring session, but in a duel to the death, wearing armor that renders him invincible, in the dead of night. 

And then he has the gall of complaining it was too easy. The guy pisses me off, and for all the wrong reasons.

He didn't necessarily mean to kill him; in fact the quote seems to imply that a simple defeat with Gawain still living would have been enough for Zelgius, and I don't think he even considered the possibility of defeating him at all. As for the Blessed Armor thing, Zelgius does throw Ragnell to Gawain right before the fight only to have it rejected and not to mention I'm sure Zelgius was expecting an Aether or two, which is a reliable way to kill the Black Knight so long as Aether is equipped, blessed armor and all. Basically, Zelgius was expecting badass Gawain, not self-crippled Gawain, and thus he was shocked that the fight was so easy. If Gawain had been at full power, the fight would have been a lot less one-sided.

Like I said, Zelgius is selfish, but I think that it's justified. Literally the only thing the guy has to his name is his amazing swordsmanship, and his obsession with Greil to the detriment of any and all around him. Still not a great thing to do, and a lot of the things he says during the conversation cross the line, but we get evidence in RD that he seems to have been exaggerating and/or bluffing with a lot of his threats.

Rereading Ike and Zelgius' last conversation, Ike calling Zelgius his teacher is more in the sense that Zelgius helped Ike realize and reach his true potential, for serving as his last stepping stone on the path to surpassing his father. Is it still a little frustrating that Ike thanks the guy who killed him in the first place and caused him a ton of heartache? Yeah...but considering Gawain wasn't coming back, Ike shows enough maturity and wisdom to move past it, and I guess it's the best way he could have reacted to it. I mean, Zelgius goes so far as to say that helping Ike progress to beating Gawain gives his own life meaning at last.

Quote

Zelgius: General Gawain was invincible at the time he trained me. To surpass him was my ultimate goal as a swordsman.
Ike: Was I as skillful as you remember my father in his prime years? Did you see his shadow in my sword?
Zelgius: I certainly did, Ike. Thanks to you, I was able to fight my master at the height of his glory days.
Ike: Black Knight Zelgius. You were my father’s killer. And my last teacher.
Zelgius: …I spent most of my life shrouded in darkness… But my life had meaning. Now I’m certain of it…

But yeah if you don't believe or like it then that's totally fine, I'm not trying to say you're wrong in your opinions or anything. I'm just giving you why I think it's not necessarily as frustrating as others may think, or that it was explained to some extent in the story itself... I do wish we could have gotten more out of it though, and a lot earlier than we did.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Thane]

8 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

He didn't necessarily mean to kill him; in fact the quote seems to imply that a simple defeat with Gawain still living would have been enough for Zelgius, and I don't think he even considered the possibility of defeating him at all.

That makes no sense. If he later whines about it being too easy, how does he accidentally skewer the man? 

9 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

As for the Blessed Armor thing, Zelgius does throw Ragnell to Gawain right before the fight only to have it rejected

Yet keeps it on in spite of not only that, but also after Greil recognizes him. He kept on fighting even though Greil literally could not hurt him with the axe, proceeding to kill him. Again, not exactly an accident, and not exactly an honorable duel.

11 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I'm sure Zelgius was expecting an Aether or two, which is a reliable way to kill the Black Knight so long as Aether is equipped, blessed armor and all.

Is there proof of that claim?

12 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Like I said, Zelgius is selfish, but I think that it's justified. Literally the only thing the guy has to his name is his amazing swordsmanship, and his obsession with Greil to the detriment of any and all around him. Still not a great thing to do, and a lot of the things he says during the conversation cross the line, but we get evidence in RD that he seems to have been exaggerating and/or bluffing with a lot of his threats.

That strikes me as the games having schizophrenia more than anything.

14 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I do wish we could have gotten more out of it though.

Hey at least people consistently praise your favorite games (even though pre-3DS they were villified like the most recent games are now); there are people out there who think my favorite one killed the franchise.

[Extrasolar]

17 minutes ago, Thane said:

That makes no sense. If he later whines about it being too easy, how does he accidentally skewer the man? 

I imagine he was expecting Gawain to block the attack, or never allow himself to get hit by it in the first place. I can see Zelgius thinking that Gawain's mad skills were too good for the fight to end like that. But Gawain wasn't at his prime, which Zelgius was caught off guard by when he finally realizes it at the end of Path of Radiance and into Radiant Dawn.

17 minutes ago, Thane said:

Is there proof of that claim?

(Video starts automatically at the start of the fight, which lasts multiple turns; Aether seals the deal.) Video quality is pretty potato, but it gets what it needs to across.

Spoiler

 

I imagine this was more akin to how Zelgius imagined the fight going, rather than the stomp that it was. (Of course, Zelgius maybe expected himself to maybe get a few hits in on the guy, rather than the RNG luck fest that this Ike had, lol.) And since Aether originated from Gawain in this first place, it's not a stretch that Zelgius would expect Gawain to still have it primed for activation.

(If anything, story-wise if Gawain was at full power Zelgius might have gone down faster, since POR Ike still hasn't matched Gawain's strength. It isn't until RD that he surpasses him).
 

17 minutes ago, Thane said:

Yet keeps it on in spite of not only that, but also after Greil recognizes him. He kept on fighting even though Greil literally could not hurt him with the axe, proceeding to kill him. Again, not exactly an accident, and not exactly an honorable duel.

Hmm, maybe Zelgius expected some tricks up Gawain's sleeve? Maybe in refusing Ragnell he was saying he didn't need it to beat Zelgius? At least, that's how I can see Zelgius taking it. As for him not calling off the duel, I imagine it was the fact that Zelgius hadn't seen Gawain in years, and stopping the duel with him very likely meant that he may never get the chance again, since his orders were to grab the medallion and leave.

Judging by his shocked reaction, he definitely didn't expect Gawain to not be able to scratch him or die that easily, even without Ragnell.

17 minutes ago, Thane said:

Hey at least people consistently praise your favorite games (even though pre-3DS they were villified like the most recent games are now); there are people out there who think my favorite one killed the franchise.

I know... I'm sorry about that. I can only imagine how annoying that is. Trust me, man, you've got my sympathy. I try not to fall into that same trap. It's very easy to overlook the flaws in your favorites...a lot of it is chalked up to nostalgia, I'll admit that, not that I'm saying they're badly-written or anything.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Thane]

Just now, Extrasolar said:

I imagine he was expecting Gawain to block the attack, or never allow himself to get hit by it in the first place. I can see Zelgius thinking that Gawain's mad skills were too good for the fight to end like that. But Gawain wasn't at his prime, which Zelgius was caught off guard by when he finally realizes it at the end of Path of Radiance and into Radiant Dawn.

I'm going to be honest here buddy, you're making an awful lot of assumptions. There's absolutely no proof of this, and I could just as easily say that when they wrote PoR, they wanted him to be more of a villain and then changed their minds in RD. 

2 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I imagine this was more akin to how Zelgius imagined the fight going, rather than the stomp that it was. (Of course, Zelgius maybe expected himself to maybe get a few hits in on the guy, rather than the RNG luck fest that this Ike had, lol.) And since Aether originated from Gawain in this first place, it's not a stretch that Zelgius would expect Gawain to still have it primed for activation.

(If anything, story-wise if Gawain was at full power Zelgius might have gone down faster, since POR Ike still hasn't matched Gawain's strength. It isn't until RD that he surpasses him).

Again, there's a lot of speculation here.

First of all, you're using gameplay footage to excuse a story cutscene. Do we know that Greil knows Aether? If that's the case, then who's to say the Black Knight didn't just have Nihil?

Secondly, Greil was using the axe and literally could not harm the Black Knight. When you say he expected Greil to block his attack, it's not like he was under pressure or anything; he had all the time in the world to react and withdraw his blade if he didn't want to kill him.

Thirdly, if he wanted a duel so badly, why not ask for a sparring session? What was he trying to achieve here?

8 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Judging by his shocked reaction, he definitely didn't expect Gawain to not be able to scratch him or die that easily, even without Ragnell.

Pretty stupid reaction to have when wearing armor that literally makes you invincible if not struck by plot swords.

9 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I know... I'm sorry about that. I can only imagine how annoying that is. Trust me, man, you've got my sympathy. I try not to fall into that same trap. It's very easy to overlook the flaws in your favorites...a lot of it is chalked up to nostalgia, I'll admit that, not that I'm saying they're badly-written or anything.

I'll live. Like I said in another thread, it's like the reaction to Frozen, where it got so popular that everyone thought it was cool to hate it and went through the movie with a negative mindset trying to nitpick every single possible flaw while not doing the same to other Disney movies. I'm not saying it's not flawed, because it obviously is, I'm just confused by the sheer vitriol and hypocrisy.

And when people say Blazing Blade has a better story I raise my eyebrows in confusion.

[Extrasolar]

22 minutes ago, Thane said:

I'm going to be honest here buddy, you're making an awful lot of assumptions. There's absolutely no proof of this, and I could just as easily say that when they wrote PoR, they wanted him to be more of a villain and then changed their minds in RD. 

Well I mean there's no way to know for 100% sure what Zelgius was thinking, but it's not an assumption to say that Zelgius was caught off guard/confused/disappointed by Gawain going down so easily (he says the very same in one of his quotes in RD: "But, something was wrong… The fight had been too simple.") Saying that much is not an assumption in any way, because the game itself backs it up. Considering how godly Zelgius builds Gawain up in that same quote, I think it's safe to say that Zelgius was expecting much, much more of the battle and Gawain's performance.

Now, if you don't want to take any RD quotes at face value because you think it's backpedaling, that's your prerogative. But they're there, regardless, and I'm taking them as evidence.

22 minutes ago, Thane said:

First of all, you're using gameplay footage to excuse a story cutscene. Do we know that Greil knows Aether? If that's the case, then who's to say the Black Knight didn't just have Nihil?

Yup. It was Greil's technique to start with. And Black Knight doesn't have Nihil in Path of Radiance at all. He doesn't get it until RD.

Here's a video of Gawain using Aether, in case you don't want to just take my word for it. (His only attacks on the downswing, not upswing, which is pretty interesting.) (First use of it is at 0:17, by the way.)
 

Quote

 

Cutscenes are a valid explanation for story stuff, especially in a video game. Remember the Ranulf vs. Zelgius fight in RD? How about Skrimir vs. Zelgius? Those start in cutscenes, but are resolved in-engine. Do those not count because of that?

22 minutes ago, Thane said:

Thirdly, if he wanted a duel so badly, why not ask for a sparring session? What was he trying to achieve here?

Well he had a mission first and foremost, to get the medallion. The duel was kind of a bonus that got out of hand, and Gawain wasn't about to just hand over the medallion in the first place. It likely would have gotten ugly no matter what happened.

But there is clear evidence that he didn't necessarily want to kill Greil during the duel, and wasn't out for blood. He just wanted to prove himself, if we're going by his own words.

22 minutes ago, Thane said:

Pretty stupid reaction to have when wearing armor that literally makes you invincible if not struck by plot swords.

Not literally. The Black Knight can still be harmed by super strong dudes without plot swords - laguz royals and Giffca. Granted, the fight's not going to be over in any timely manner without Aether, Wrath or Critical, but it's still something. I mean, the Black Knight gtfos from the situation after Greil's death because he hears Caingehis in the distance, so even he knows that the armor doesn't make him 100% invincible against everything.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Thane]

2 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Well I mean there's no way to know for 100% sure what Zelgius was thinking, but it's not an assumption to say that Zelgius was caught off guard/confused/disappointed by Gawain going down so easily (he says the very same in one of his quotes in RD: "But, something was wrong… The fight had been too simple.") Saying that much is not an assumption in any way, because the game itself backs it up. Considering how godly Zelgius builds Gawain up in that same quote, I think it's safe to say that Zelgius was expecting much, much more of the battle and Gawain's performance.

Now, if you don't want to take any RD quotes at face value because you think it's backpedaling, that's your prerogative. But they're there, regardless, and I'm taking them as evidence.

The quotes are there, but like you say we can't know what he thought there. Again, Zelgius did not ask for a friendly sparring session; he shoved a sword through his master's stomach. I'm sorry but I find it an incredible stretch to think he didn't ean to kill Greil just because he in Radiant Dawn says it had been too easy.

5 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Cutscenes are a valid explanation for story stuff, especially in a video game. Remember the Ranulf v. Zelgius fight in RD? How about Skrimir vs. Zelgius? Those start in cutscenes, but are resolved in-engine. Do those not count because of that?

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say these prove? Greil knew Aether, alright, but what does Ike finishing the Black Knight off with it have to do with anything? That's strictly a gameplay thing, and it wouldn't matter if Greil used it because he wasn't wielding the Alondite. 

Besides, Greil and Zelgius' fight was in a completely different format from the fights you mention. Again, I'm not sure why you're bringing this up.

8 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Well he had a mission first and foremost, to get the medallion. The duel was kind of a bonus that got out of hand, and Gawain wasn't about to just hand over the medallion in the first place. It likely would have gotten ugly no matter what happened.

But there is clear evidence that he didn't necessarily want to kill Greil during the duel, and wasn't out for blood. He just wanted to prove himself, if we're going by his own words.

Right. And look at how it went for him. He didn't get the Medallion (right?) and Greil died because he "just wanted to prove himself". So not only is he thoroughly incompetent, he's clumsy, too.

10 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Not literally. The Black Knight can still be harmed by super strong dudes without plot swords - laguz royals and Giffca. Granted, the fight's not going to be over in any timely manner without Aether, Wrath or Critical, but it's still something. I mean, the Black Knight gtfos from the situation after Greil's death because he hears Caingehis in the distance, so even he knows that the armor doesn't make him 100% invincible against everything.

Because it would've been "troublesome", not because he was in any danger, unless he was afraid they could separate him from his helmet or something. 

[Extrasolar]

27 minutes ago, Thane said:

The quotes are there, but like you say we can't know what he thought there. Again, Zelgius did not ask for a friendly sparring session; he shoved a sword through his master's stomach. I'm sorry but I find it an incredible stretch to think he didn't ean to kill Greil just because he in Radiant Dawn says it had been too easy.

Unless you assume Zelgius is lying about being surprised or confused about the man he saw as godly going down so easily in their sparring session, and how he only wanted to prove himself worthy of standing beside him in swordsmanship (and I see no reason why he would about something like this), I don't see how you see that to mean he killed Greil on purpose. He doesn't say "I longed to put my master to death/I longed for revenge against my master for his departure" instead he says "I longed to prove myself worthy or equal to this godly man."

I mean, if that's the meaning you take away from it that's the meaning you take away from it. I just don't understand how you come to the conclusion that Zelgius was out for blood when everything in RD points to the fact that he wasn't. But at the end of the day, if you treat all of RD as your personal canon discontinuity due to how it says things we don't see in Path of Radiance, I can't stop you. Just that it doesn't make much sense to think that way imo; I take it all as being just as relevant, even if it didn't get as much explanation or time as we could have gotten on it.

We just have different perspectives on this, I guess.

27 minutes ago, Thane said:

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say these prove? Greil knew Aether, alright, but what does Ike finishing the Black Knight off with it have to do with anything? That's strictly a gameplay thing, and it wouldn't matter if Greil used it because he wasn't wielding the Alondite. 

You asked me for proof when I said that Aether was a reliable way to kill the Black Knight. I provided it. You asked me if Greil knew Aether, I showed you that he did. And Greil doesn't need to be wielding one of the magic swords to use it. He can use it with any sword or axe that he is wielding. I don't understand what you're getting at with "simply a gameplay thing." Uh, it's a video game... 90% of everything in FE is strictly a gameplay thing. Why does that make it suddenly not count? Gameplay affects the narrative in video games, and gameplay affects the narrative several times in this FE game alone. I bring up the other two examples as proof of that, but you keep dismissing them for reasons I can't fathom.

27 minutes ago, Thane said:

Because it would've been "troublesome", not because he was in any danger, unless he was afraid they could separate him from his helmet or something. 

I mean, if Zelgius wasn't worried about having to face Cainegehis, why bother retreating at all? He had to abandon his mission simply because he didn't want to have to face Caineghis in what would have been combat. Sure, Caingehis might not have been able to one-shot him, but it's still proof (as well as the rest of the in-game proof) that the Black Knight's armor doesn't make him 100% invincible to everything.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Sunwoo]

4 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Just going off the backstory of the laguz-beorc conflict, it makes total sense why the laguz are portrayed as the good guys. I mean, it wasn't the laguz that put the beorc in chains and forced them to be slaves. The anti-beorc sentiment among some of the laguz is completely justified in that case. Lethe says it best in her conversations with Jill.

Except there is a brief conversation between Ike and Nasir which states that at one point, the roles of the laguz and beorc were reversed. The extended script of RD's endgame-3 with Dheginsea also states the same thing: "in the past, there were periods when the laguz dominated the beorc". The only reason beorc dominating the laguz is so much fresher in the characters' minds is because it sounds like it was far more recent. But the characters who know of past events better make it sound as if both the laguz and beorc suck, they just suck at different times.

[Thane]

23 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Unless you assume Zelgius is lying about being surprised or confused about the man he saw as godly going down so easily in their sparring session, and how he only wanted to prove himself worthy of standing beside him in swordsmanship (and I see no reason why he would about something likes this), I don't see how you see that to mean he killed Greil on purpose. He doesn't say "I longed to put my master to death/I longed for revenge against my master for his departure" instead he says "I longed to prove myself worthy or equal to this godly man."

I don't assume he's lying. I assume he meant to kill him to prove himself Greil's equal, and the only thing he was surprised at was the fact that he went down so easily, not that he actually died. His reaction after the duel is simply the line "...Unbelievable, is this what has become of my former master?" and then he goes on to threaten Greil's family. You assume these are empty threats, but I'm not as convinced as you are. He doesn't seem to give a fig about Greil lying on the ground dying.

23 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I mean, if that's the meaning you take away from it that's the meaning you take away from it. I just don't understand how you come to the conclusions that Zelgius was out for blood when everything in RD points to the fact that he wasn't. But at the end of the day, if you treat all of RD as your personal canon discontinuity due to how it says things we don't see in Path of Radiance, I can't stop you. Just that it doesn't make much sense to think that way imo; I take it all as being just as relevant, even if it didn't get as much explanation or time as we could have gotten on it.

I'm not treating it as a discontinuity, I'm treating it like the writing not knowing what it wanted to do with Zelgius, and he ends up being incompetent, uninteresting and flat out boring as a result. 

23 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

You asked me for proof when I said that Aether was a reliable way to kill the Black Knight. I provided it.

You showed me gameplay footage of Ike - wearing the plot sword - using a game skill to kill the Black Knight. I'm not sure what that proves. Greil was not wielding the sword, and it's not like the cutscene fight would've ended up like an in-game, turn-based battle even if he did use Aether. I mean hell, going by that logic we can start talking about what would've happened if Ike got screwed with his strength grows. 

This is story and gameplay segregation.

23 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

You asked me if Greil knew Aether, I showed you that he did

Yes, you did. I'm not denying that. What I'm arguing against is, again, that it would play out like an in-game battle scene.

23 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I mean, if Zelgius wasn't worried about having to face Cainegehis, why bother retreating at all?

Many reasons, one of them being he could be stuck there and risk getting overwhelmed and struck by someone using the sword he had thrown on the ground when his back was turned. If we go by gameplay cutscenes in Radiant Dawn, we've seen how Zelgius - without the literal plot armor - injures and knocks out Skrimir without breaking so much as a sweat

Edited March 27, 2017 by Thane

[Extrasolar]

17 minutes ago, Thane said:

You showed me gameplay footage of Ike - wearing the plot sword - using a game skill to kill the Black Knight. I'm not sure what that proves. Greil was not wielding the sword, and it's not like the cutscene fight would've ended up like an in-game, turn-based battle even if he did use Aether. I mean hell, going by that logic we can start talking about what would've happened if Ike got screwed with his strength grows. 

Well Ike didn't come anywhere near close to peak Gawain's strength in POR, hence why he needed the magic sword to scratch Zelgius in the first place. Just because the skill is in-game doesn't mean it's not canon to the story or narrative.

The turn-based battles are used as expressions of story battles; obviously, nobody stands and takes turns in real life, but since we're in a strategy RPG engine, that's how they're depicted. But in FE as a whole, we get the very same turn-based in-engine battles to represent narrative and story battles, and it's no different here. I mean, the Battle of Belhalla barbecue of FE4 was a bunch of sprites standing stock-still while mages rained fire down upon them. Obviously not a representation of the "real" event, but that doesn't make it any less relevant or canon because it uses in-engine assets.

Gawain's sword skill is built up in-universe as special, and it's not a stretch to think that Aether is the manifestation of that, considering it's unique to Gawain and Ike, who takes directly after his father's style of swordsmanship in the first place.

17 minutes ago, Thane said:

If we go by gameplay cutscenes in Radiant Dawn, we've seen how Zelgius - without the literal plot armor - injures and knocks out Skrimir without breaking so much as a sweat

Wait, I'm confused. Are you arguing that gameplay battles are relevant in the narrative context or not? First you're saying they're meaningless in a story context, and now, you're arguing that they mean something in a story context. We can't have it both ways.

If Aether is meaningless because it's not directly alluded to in-story, and Ike beating the Black Knight in an in-engine battle doesn't mean anything because it's not a pre-rendered cutscene, then why is Zelgius vs. Skrimir or Zelgius vs. Ranulf relevant? Ike beating the Black Knight in POR is just as canon as the endings of both of those fights if we're taking it to mean that in-game cutscenes are relevant after all. If they're not, then that's moot as well.

Quote

Many reasons, one of them being he could be stuck there and risk getting overwhelmed and struck by someone using the sword he had thrown on the ground when his back was turned.

Nobody can wield Ragnell except for Ike and Gawain unless you're hacking the game. The laguz sure as hell couldn't use it. And if he was overwhelmed, why should he care, if the armor supposedly makes him completely invincible to everything except for the sword?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Thane]

Just now, Extrasolar said:

Wait, I'm confused. Are you arguing that gameplay battles are relevant in the narrative context or not? First you're saying they're meaningless in a story context, and now, you're arguing that they mean something in a story context. We can't have it both ways.

No, I argue that they don't matter in this regard, which is why I said "if we go by gameplay cutscenes" as in "if we apply your logic to this". Gameplay battles don't matter when discussing these things at all. I'm all for Greil being the biggest baddest swordsman in Tellius, but trying to apply gameplay skills, for example, as a way to determine a fight would be pointless. 

Really got to head to bed now. I'll talk to you later, buddy! Great discussion!

[Extrasolar]

9 minutes ago, Thane said:

No, I argue that they don't matter in this regard, which is why I said "if we go by gameplay cutscenes" as in "if we apply your logic to this". Gameplay battles don't matter when discussing these things at all. I'm all for Greil being the biggest baddest swordsman in Tellius, but trying to apply gameplay skills, for example, as a way to determine a fight would be pointless. 

I disagree. We can get all the build up of a unit's badassitude speaking in purely story terms, but at the end of the day, it's their performance in gameplay that really drives home if they really are badass or not, in a medium like this. Now, if we were talking about an anime or something, then yeah, all we'd have to go off of were animated scene feats. But we get far, far fewer of those than we get in-game battles. I'd even go so far as saying the gameplay performance is more important than story performance in a video game.  Peak Greil is built up as a huge badass, and going off of the second of his POR models (his stronger one, not the weak tutorial one) along with Aether, it's true. That video I showed is proof of just how strong the guy can be in that video.

I mean, on the logic that arguing gameplay skill is pointless, you could build up Ryoma as the most badass of samurai that Hoshido has to offer in the narrative itself all day long, and we could see him cutting people down in cutscenes all the live long day,, but if the second we got control of him in the game itself, he was a Level 1 Myrmidon with Hana-level bases, then you'd be calling foul about it.

I don't see it as flawed to say that Zelgius was expecting peak Greil as seen in that video, but got tutorial model Greil instead, which is how he died to him so easily. Let me try to put it this way. If you're used to playing a friend of yours in a fighting game, and both of you are badasses at that particular game but you've never been able to beat your friend, you're not going to suddenly treat the guy like a newbie if you challenge him again. When he's suddenly unable to block or break your combos, dropping each and every one of his combos, and generally failing at the game, and you still have all of your skill, you're likely going to end up destroying him. You'd be just as confused as to what happened to this guy who used to be your superior.

And then you find out that the guy had some sort of hand injury meaning he just couldn't react to your stuff, you'd be feeling like your victory was just as hollow as Zelgius did.

9 minutes ago, Thane said:

Really got to head to bed now. I'll talk to you later, buddy! Great discussion!

Good night. Sleep tight! Having lots of fun with this.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Acacia Sgt]

Fascinating a discussion it is, before I answer to the thread itself, one thing I want to clarify.

Those mentioning about who is the aggressor and who is the victim regarding Beorc and Laguz... Dheginsea himself states in the Extended Script of 4-E-3 that there have been times where the Beorc were the ones being oppressed by the Laguz. It's the typical "endless cycle of revenge" where the abuser and victim switch places time and again, and nothing changes overall. The games just happen to take place at one point of the cycle, that's all.

Oh wait, it was mentioned. Anyway, now with that out of the way...

---

To me, what makes or breaks a story is execution. I am in the opinion that clichés need to be judged on the how, not the what. Since nothing is really original in this day and age, then more reason to see the execution. That said, repetition is such a factor of execution, so constantly repeatedly reusing the same formula with little variation is what I would consider, a poor execution.

---

For the record, I don't quite believe there is a definite line between what is gameplay and what is story in a video game, so if there's integration, great, but it should not also be the be-all end-all of determining what is actually canon to the story.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Paper Jam]

Quote

Part 2 may "address" what happened in part 1, but part 2 does not happen because of part 1.

What's weird, I think, is that it may as well have. Crimea got so badly screwed over by Daein in FE9 that pretty much all of Crimea should have been out for blood at the news that Daein had a new king, and angry at their queen for not declaring war on Daein.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Paper Jam

[Interdimensional Observer]

There may have been periods of Laguz domination over the Beorc, but it doesn't feel that way in the games. Having the lore is very very nice, better than not at all. But things needed to feel more equal, the impression you get through the game is that Laguz are more in the right, and Beorc in the wrong. 

Perhaps Yugoslavia in the 90s would be an acceptable model for grey racial relations while not condoning racism (rather denouncing of course). Milosevic's Serbia was undoubtedly the big bad, but Croatia was definitely not without its own atrocities. Kosovo was mostly a victim of Serbia, but it didn't go down a pacifist, it did fight back and bloody its hands a bit. Then you have Slovenia, which more or less stayed out of the whole thing, the only major "crime" you can accuse it of is helping contribute to the breaking up of Yugoslavia when it did not necessarily need to die.