Should Jagens be gone for the next FE game?

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Refa said:

It's a meaningless distinction that's subjective.  Prepromote who joins early is something that everyone can get (a Jeigan).  What is considered making it to endgame and still being incredibly good anyways (I've used FE6 Marcus and FE11 Jeigan until endgame and they've been some of my best units in those runs, and some of the earlier Jeigans can be used for the whole game due to statboosters being incredibly OP)?  Oifaye himself is actually one of the worst Jeigans, because not only does he not carry the team early on but he only performs above average by the end of the game.  Unnecessary at best, detrimental to discussion at worst when people are like "OH NO THAT'S NOT A JEIGAN IT'S AN OIFAYE".

Comparing Jeigan and Seth is like night and day. There might be some debate as to who's a Jeigan and who's an Oifey but there's still two distinct brands of philopsohy that are happening with these first map silver lance prepromotes.

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Comparing Jeigan and Seth is like night and day. There might be some debate as to who's a Jeigan and who's an Oifey but there's still two distinct brands of philopsohy that are happening with these first map silver lance prepromotes.

Seth is better than Jeigan by far, but I don't see why that merits a distinction.  Even Seth's short term performance is better, so it's not like he's better just because he has good growths and you can use him until endgame.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Refa

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Refa said:

Seth is better than Jeigan by far, but I don't see why that merits a distinction.  Even Seth's short term performance is better, so it's not like he's better just because he has good growths and you can use him until endgame.

They're clearly designed to fulfill different roles. Jeigan is designed not to be useable passed a certain point (like you can throw an immense amount of stat boosters on him or get ridiculously rng blessed but it's not a core aspect of the unit), while Seth is designed to still be usable by end game. There's a distinction because the units perform in distinctly different ways.

Now granted, it seems to be an evolution of the concept more so than two intentionally different archetypes. True Jeigans are all from the older games in the series. Oifey being the first example of an Oifey probably had less to do with intent and more to do with the fact that the player will be able to field him in the final map anyway so they might as well not make him terrible. And a little bit later down the road when characterisation became more important and players would use units regardless of how good they are, they decided to make their crutch characters useable (and sometimes well beyond useable) throughout. Gunter's the only one who's really thrown the whole thing for a loop being the first true to form Jeigan since Fe6!Marcus. The question shouldn't really be if Jeigans should go in the next Fire Emblem game, it's whether they should come back.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Jotari

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

They're clearly designed to fulfill different roles. Jeigan is designed not to be useable passed a certain point (like you can throw an immense amount of stat boosters on him or get ridiculously rng blessed but it's not a core aspect of the unit), while Seth is designed to still be usable by end game. There's a distinction because the units perform in distinctly different ways.

Fair enough, I can agree with that.  Still don't really like the term though because with units like Marcus (FE7), Sothe (FE10), and Frederick, it's really hard to determine whether or not they actually wanted the units to have long term use.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Refa said:

Fair enough, I can agree with that.  Still don't really like the term though because with units like Marcus (FE7), Sothe (FE10), and Frederick, it's really hard to determine whether or not they actually wanted the units to have long term use.

Well considering Sothe is forced for endgame in Radiant Dawn, the answer is probably yes for him...They could have made him a little less fragile though.

[Espinosa]

I'd like the newly added Jeigans to promote a kind of smarter / more advanced way of playing the game. No doubling, perhaps a weakness like poor defence, resistance or luck, the importance of faster levelling with good growths to not put them into much of a spotlight. I'm fine with them staying good though. 

[Anacybele]

1 hour ago, Refa said:

Fair enough, I can agree with that.  Still don't really like the term though because with units like Marcus (FE7), Sothe (FE10), and Frederick, it's really hard to determine whether or not they actually wanted the units to have long term use.

Frederick has good growths and can be great if you put time into him. Though that's if you don't Second Seal people at all, of course, so I guess in Awakening, anyone can be really good, really. Even so, I still love the fast Dread Fighter Freddy I made. Fixed his speed and res issues!

But yeah, not all Jagens are bad, some are good throughout the whole game like Seth and Titania. I don't think they should go away forever.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Anacybele

[Folt]

Honestly, the Jagen should stay. The series' tradition of having a prepromote among your early cast so that your army isn't completely filled with units who can only take one, maybe two hits at most (and sometimes not even that) before they're in danger of getting killed is very good to have in the early game of Fire Emblem, and I like how Jagens have ranged from endgame material to falling off at a point where your (now trained) units can handle the challenges before them without relying on them anymore. There's a reason why most Fire Emblems have a Jagen since anyone can find use in a unit that doesn't turn into mush when attacked and can dish out decent damage when they're in the beginning phases of the game, alongside the lessons that they teach you (without directly telling them).

Indeed, the immediate power the Jagen provides you vs. managing the flow of EXP so that other units end up good enough to take over when the Jagen starts to fall off (or some good ol' strategy/tactics in the case of the Jagens that can have endgame potential) can be a good learning tool to use, kind of like how the Cain and Abel archetype will show players how stat growths and weapon loadout (and ranks as well) can differentiate two units who wouldn't be that different from each other on paper.

[Wayward Alchemist]

No, Jeigans are quite a staple of the series and make high difficulties more fun and less RNG-abuse focused. Additionally, Jeigans tend to be older and more jaded and are mor diversity to the cast rather than twenty-or-so teenagers.

[Rezzy]

I think we should have more Jeigans.  I also think prepromotes should have lower growths in general,  it that hasn't been the case for a while.

I think we should be rewarded for leveling lower level units and not just have OP prepromotes be abundant.

[goodperson707]

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

Depends on what game you're playing. For FE7, Marcus is hardly needed since Hector and Eliwood can easily beat the first few chapters even without them doing solo.

Also, I don't get it. What does the first few chapters being easier have anything to do with not using Jagens? Yeah I get that for harder modes, they are reliable but we're talking about units that are more useful than just stealing EXP to those that need it within those chapters. Does Gunter really need to even exist in Fates? Because his role itself is lame besides Revelation which altered his stats to some extreme...

Ok so I'm aware that FE hasn't done Jagens for a long time until Fates...which is why I'm wondering if such characters are needed. Seeing them old and fighting is a bit depressing..just retire already.

And for the record, Frederick is NOT a jagen since he has really good growths and base stats. We're talking about only the ones who have poor growths but good base stats...should we get units that have them both instead?

 

So yeah it seems like your complaining about a sample size of 3 or so, (there are more Jagens but they don't fit your comments) and Gunter is the only one I'm convinced is in a game you've played/are more aware of. (And I'm not sure how much Gunter even counts for some of your arguments, considering the only game he works as a Jagen outside his 2 starting chapters is revelation, conquest is the one where he gets a stat boost and isn't really a Jagen) Also his role being lame dosen't tell anyone anything besides your opinion, give us reasons beyond that.

Edited March 29, 2017 by goodperson707

[Nym]

Jeigan are just a way to help survive the early game. We need them (most of the time).

Once your army is powerful enough, you can bench them so they can take a nice deserved break.

So no, keep them.

I have to say however, that Fates did a good job about its Jeigan. The game literally force you to get rid of Guntler early on which is super big especially in Conquest.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I think we should have more Jeigans.  I also think prepromotes should have lower growths in general,  it that hasn't been the case for a while.

I think we should be rewarded for leveling lower level units and not just have OP prepromotes be abundant

Actually, I took some time and collected Growth Rate Totals (all a unit's growth rates added up) data for most FEs, and I found something interesting when I was looking at FE6-9.

FE6:

Marcus: 185 Allen: 290 Lance: 285

No prepromote exceeds 215 barring Karel or Klein (270). 270 is about average for anyone else not a thief, Fae, or Roy.

FE7:

Marcus: 250 Sain: 290 Kent: 290 Lowen: 300

Marcus is about representative of an average prepromote's GRTs, and Lowen's of a non-lord/Nils/Nino unit.

FE8:

Seth: 325 Franz: 295 Forde: 300 Kyle: 295

Your eyes do not deceive you. Seth exceeds everyone in GRTs but Myrrh, the Renais twins, Tethys, and (international) Lyon.

FE9:

Titania: 390 Oscar: 310 Kieran: 310 Astrid: 305 Makalov: 305 Ike: 365

Yep, Titania even exceeds Ike (who is significantly above the average). No unpromoted unit but Sothe beats her. Only Laguz and other promoted Beorc win out.

GRTs aren't everything, for Seth surely is more imbalanced than Titania due to lower enemy stats in his game. And Bastian, the man with the highest GRT among promoted Beorc (395) has crap stats and nobody praises his combat contributions.

The story is clear: From FE6 to FE9, growths for prepromotes creeped and creeped higher and higher. Allen could destroy Marcus at 20/1 vs. Marcus at 20/20. A 20/10 Sain is stronger by 4-5 points and faster by 2-4 points against a 20/20 Marcus (while losing Skill), to completely destroy him he needs those last 10 levels. A 20/20 Franz wins vs. a 20/20 Seth by mere few HP and Speed- Franz can never radically outdo Seth. Titania actually pretty definitively loses to Oscar when both are at 20/20, it's closer to FE7 Marcus vs. Sain than Seth vs. Franz, so in way she was actually a step back from this prepromote power trend.

In RD, to be a prepromote means little. Awakening and Fates give most prepromotes excellent or at least decent growths to compensate for high enemy stats, and to appease all fans by making their all favorites capable of having glowing green numbers across the board.

[NinjaMonkey]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

while Seth is designed to still be usable by end game.

That's more to do with Sacred Stones having poorer enemy stats than anything else.

Anyway, I'd be fine with them disappearing altogether.

Edited March 29, 2017 by NinjaMonkey

[Rezzy]

I'd argue that Rev Gunter isn't even really a Jeigan.  Jeigan allegedly start strong, but taper off in power relative to the rest of the army as time goes on.  Gunter is actually pretty crap from the beginning.  Even at chapter 7 (everything before is pretty much a glorified prologue) he is your worst unit, and he only gets worse from there.  If they had at least given Gunter a few more points in Defense, he could serve his role without dying after a couple rounds of combat.  Jakob is a better Jeigan than Gunter, and he's not the traditional Paladin-type variety, but more a debuffer/healer.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

5 hours ago, Wayward Alchemist said:

No, Jeigans are quite a staple of the series and make high difficulties more fun and less RNG-abuse focused. Additionally, Jeigans tend to be older and more jaded and are mor diversity to the cast rather than twenty-or-so teenagers.

This.

Try playing Hard/Lunatic mode without Jeigans and see what happens. 

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

That's more to do with Sacred Stones having poorer enemy stats than anything else.

Anyway, I'd be fine with them disappearing altogether.

It's really not, considering Seth has equivalent bases to the final character you can recruit in the Story mode.

[Extrasolar]

I think that the Jagen should definitely should come back, and remain in use in future FE games as well. I'm someone who appreciates FE's multitude of unit archetypes, whether they be story/plot archetypes or mechanical archetypes as one of FE's central and important traditions. Even if I never much used any of the Jagen characters unless I absolutely had to (when doing harder difficulty runs) or were particularly invested in raising them and boosting their stats, I think they serve a unique and valuable position on the allied team.

Like people have said, getting a more experienced, worldly character like most Jagens are in the army of teenagers and 20-somethings to counterbalance the naivete, inexperience and idealism (not that any of those are bad, of course) would be good. They have lots of potential for backstory past the beginning of the game, especially when we're talking Jagens in their 50s or 60s, or even 70s.

I definitely wouldn't be opposed to getting a little more variety in the Jagen units themselves, though. I think RD making its Jagen a thief rather than your usual standard paladin was fresh and interesting.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Extrasolar

[a bear]

I've never liked having one of my units as a safety net/babysitter/EXP toilet. Things are more thrilling when it's locked into sink or swim mode.

[Refa]

4 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Jakob is a better Jeigan than Gunter, and he's not the traditional Paladin-type variety, but more a debuffer/healer.

He's one of the most OP characters in the game if you reclass him to Paladin!

[Slumber]

20 hours ago, General Horace said:

Most Jeigans are among the best units in their respective games.  Rev!Gunter and maybe FE3!Arran are the only ones that are mediocre to bad units, which units like Seth and FE9!Titania are among the strongest units in the series.

Titania and Seth fall under "Oifey" territory.

We haven't really seen a Jeigan since, well... Jeigan in FE11(Arran for FE12), and we haven't seen a NEW game with a Jeigan since Marcus in FE7.

Jeigans have already been gone for a long time.

[Folt]

5 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I'd argue that Rev Gunter isn't even really a Jeigan.  Jeigan allegedly start strong, but taper off in power relative to the rest of the army as time goes on.  Gunter is actually pretty crap from the beginning.  Even at chapter 7 (everything before is pretty much a glorified prologue) he is your worst unit, and he only gets worse from there.  If they had at least given Gunter a few more points in Defense, he could serve his role without dying after a couple rounds of combat.  Jakob is a better Jeigan than Gunter, and he's not the traditional Paladin-type variety, but more a debuffer/healer.

That assumes we have F!Corrin at that point. Gunter will do quite a bit of heavy lifting in the early stages of Revelations (not helped by the fact that most units we get can be even worse than Gunter).

Also, glorified prologue or not, you're almost practically required to go through it if you're taking a different-gendered Corrin from your last playthrough, and the chapters that Gunter is around for are chapters where he's pretty useful. It's pretty much like the rest of the game that Fates takes it's own spin on the Jagen archetype.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Folt said:

That assumes we have F!Corrin at that point. Gunter will do quite a bit of heavy lifting in the early stages of Revelations (not helped by the fact that most units we get can be even worse than Gunter).

Also, glorified prologue or not, you're almost practically required to go through it if you're taking a different-gendered Corrin from your last playthrough, and the chapters that Gunter is around for are chapters where he's pretty useful. It's pretty much like the rest of the game that Fates takes it's own spin on the Jagen archetype.

The gender of your Corrin is irrelevant. You can skip the prologue without issue. The only requirement to redo the prologue is if you're changing difficulty (since obviously the prologue is going to be more difficult on a higher setting).

[Yula]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Titania and Seth fall under "Oifey" territory.

We haven't really seen a Jeigan since, well... Jeigan in FE11(Arran for FE12), and we haven't seen a NEW game with a Jeigan since Marcus in FE7.

Jeigans have already been gone for a long time.

Arguably Marcus can be considered an Oifey in FE7. He's unquestionably a Jeigan in FE6.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oifey, if it is an archetype at all, is a sub-type of jagen/jegian; the essential characteristics of jagen (much higher-levelled early-joining character who can serve as a crutch) are still there. So it's not really accurate to say that jeigans are no longer around; Frederick is absolutely one. (Fates' implementation you can quibble over.)

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Actually, I took some time and collected Growth Rate Totals (all a unit's growth rates added up) data for most FEs, and I found something interesting when I was looking at FE6-9.

FE6:

Marcus: 185 Allen: 290 Lance: 285

No prepromote exceeds 215 barring Karel or Klein (270). 270 is about average for anyone else not a thief, Fae, or Roy.

FE7:

Marcus: 250 Sain: 290 Kent: 290 Lowen: 300

Marcus is about representative of an average prepromote's GRTs, and Lowen's of a non-lord/Nils/Nino unit.

FE8:

Seth: 325 Franz: 295 Forde: 300 Kyle: 295

Your eyes do not deceive you. Seth exceeds everyone in GRTs but Myrrh, the Renais twins, Tethys, and (international) Lyon.

FE9:

Titania: 390 Oscar: 310 Kieran: 310 Astrid: 305 Makalov: 305 Ike: 365

Yep, Titania even exceeds Ike (who is significantly above the average). No unpromoted unit but Sothe beats her. Only Laguz and other promoted Beorc win out.

GRTs aren't everything, for Seth surely is more imbalanced than Titania due to lower enemy stats in his game. And Bastian, the man with the highest GRT among promoted Beorc (395) has crap stats and nobody praises his combat contributions.

The story is clear: From FE6 to FE9, growths for prepromotes creeped and creeped higher and higher. Allen could destroy Marcus at 20/1 vs. Marcus at 20/20. A 20/10 Sain is stronger by 4-5 points and faster by 2-4 points against a 20/20 Marcus (while losing Skill), to completely destroy him he needs those last 10 levels. A 20/20 Franz wins vs. a 20/20 Seth by mere few HP and Speed- Franz can never radically outdo Seth. Titania actually pretty definitively loses to Oscar when both are at 20/20, it's closer to FE7 Marcus vs. Sain than Seth vs. Franz, so in way she was actually a step back from this prepromote power trend.

In RD, to be a prepromote means little. Awakening and Fates give most prepromotes excellent or at least decent growths to compensate for high enemy stats, and to appease all fans by making their all favorites capable of having glowing green numbers across the board.

In fairness, regarding growths: Seth, Titania and Frederick do all have high growths, but all three also have low stats for their level (not for their join time, of course, but for their level). In fact, even with their high growths, they're slightly below par at an arbitrary equal level (such as 20/15). in Frederick's case, more than slightly. So the high growths mostly serve the purpose of allowing them to stay at least competitive for all playstyles even late in the game.

On the other hand, characters like Marcus7 have both bad bases for their levels AND bad growths, so they will be far inferior to promoted cavaliers once they are at equal levels. This is totally fine from a balance perspective but a casual fan of Marcus might be disappointed (although he or she can console themself with the fact that Marcus has a decent case to be the best unit in the game anyway).