Should Jagens be gone for the next FE game?

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Oifey, if it is an archetype at all, is a sub-type of jagen/jegian; the essential characteristics of jagen (much higher-levelled early-joining character who can serve as a crutch) are still there. So it's not really accurate to say that jeigans are no longer around; Frederick is absolutely one. (Fates' implementation you can quibble over.)

In fairness, regarding growths: Seth, Titania and Frederick do all have high growths, but all three also have low stats for their level (not for their join time, of course, but for their level). In fact, even with their high growths, they're slightly below par at an arbitrary equal level (such as 20/15). in Frederick's case, more than slightly. So the high growths mostly serve the purpose of allowing them to stay at least competitive for all playstyles even late in the game.

On the other hand, characters like Marcus7 have both bad bases for their levels AND bad growths, so they will be far inferior to promoted cavaliers once they are at equal levels. This is totally fine from a balance perspective but a casual fan of Marcus might be disappointed (although he or she can console themself with the fact that Marcus has a decent case to be the best unit in the game anyway).

I wouldn't compare Seth's basis as low for his level. At best they're slightly below average. The other cavaliers are likely to be a bit stronger at 20/1 than base Seth but we're talking by only 1 or 2 points in each stat. And if you've been using Seth at all then he'll already have compensated for that with his own high growths. Of course Seth is renowned as being an especially broken case.

[Ertrick36]

I'm of the opinion that if they have a practical use, they're generally a useful unit.  As others have said, Jeigans are a boon early on.  That makes them more useful than an Est, which is a unit that's redundant (you probably have plenty of good units on your team before you get one), a late-comer, and only useful if you put significant time into them.  Even if you're only using them to tank some enemy hits or to soften up enemies, that's still more use than a lot of characters will get in a playthrough.  And some such as Frederick on Lunatic mode are practically vital, which ramps their usefulness up even further.

If there was any kind of unit we ought to remove, it's units like Ryoma, who start off OP and continue to be such until endgame.  Or maybe unit archetypes that are neither widely used nor useful.  But I also think that taking away from unit diversity is a lazy solution to problems that are present with the status quo.  Whatever problems you might have with Jeigans could probably be fixed with some tweaks.  So ultimately, I think it's best to advocate for change rather than removal.

[Slumber]

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Oifey, if it is an archetype at all, is a sub-type of jagen/jegian; the essential characteristics of jagen (much higher-levelled early-joining character who can serve as a crutch) are still there. So it's not really accurate to say that jeigans are no longer around; Frederick is absolutely one. (Fates' implementation you can quibble over.)

In fairness, regarding growths: Seth, Titania and Frederick do all have high growths, but all three also have low stats for their level (not for their join time, of course, but for their level). In fact, even with their high growths, they're slightly below par at an arbitrary equal level (such as 20/15). in Frederick's case, more than slightly. So the high growths mostly serve the purpose of allowing them to stay at least competitive for all playstyles even late in the game.

On the other hand, characters like Marcus7 have both bad bases for their levels AND bad growths, so they will be far inferior to promoted cavaliers once they are at equal levels. This is totally fine from a balance perspective but a casual fan of Marcus might be disappointed (although he or she can console themself with the fact that Marcus has a decent case to be the best unit in the game anyway).

How is Frederick a Jeigan, and not an Oifey? He has meh bases, but good growths, and the existence of Second Seals makes him able to level up infinitely to fit his better growths.

Plus, Jeigans are crutches for EARLY game stuff, like, first few chapters early. Once units start getting around level 10 unpromoted, they start matching or beating typical Jeigans, due to the lack of payoff in leveling up a typical Jeigan. Frederick isn't going to be matched until promotion, given that his EXP curve is pretty generous, and he has growths about on par with Chrom. Even if you don't Second Seal him until later in the game, he'll still be a solid unit the kids start showing up. He'll stay ahead of most of your party until they start promoting themselves, which is more characteristic of Oifeys.

You basically have to deliberately bench him to get him to fall behind.

And yeah, I think it's worth recognizing that there's a big difference between Oifeys and Jeigans, separating them as their own archetypes. The intent(As Jotari mentioned) is much different. Jeigans are supposed to get you through the early game chapters, and aren't really meant to be used past the mid-point. They have bad bases You basically have to bungle things up pretty bad, or deliberately handicap yourself to use them at end-game. Oifeys, meanwhile, are meant to be viable units MUCH longer, well past just the early game. Bringing them to the end game is still fairly situational, but much less situational than a Jeigan, and they can still pull some weight in those final chapters.

On top of this, Jeigans are typically old veterans, either middle-aged or well past that(Jeigan, Dagdar/Eyvale, Marcus... FE3 Arran arguably breaks that mold), while Oifeys are more in their prime of mid-late 20s/early 30s(Don't let the moustache fool you, Oifey himself is only about 32 in gen 2), so not only is there just a statistical division, there's also a role/age discrepancy.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Slumber

[Flee Fleet!]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

On top of this, Jeigans are typically old veterans, either middle-aged or well past that(Jeigan, Dagdar/Eyvale, Marcus... FE3 Arran arguably breaks that mold),

Or they're sick. Like how Arran is sick.

Also what's Eyvale's age anyways? She still looks young despite being a Jagen.

 

[ping]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

How is Frederick a Jeigan, and not an Oifey? He has meh bases, but good growths, and the existence of Second Seals makes him able to level up infinitely to fit his better growths.

If I understand correctly, that is a question of definition. If you keep the label 'Jeigan' broader, as in 'A unit who joins very early as a promoted unit with significantly higher combat stats than the rest of your team', you don't have to get into an argument where the Jeigan ends and the Oifey begins. FE6!Marcus and Seth are just two extremes on the scale of long-term viability, not two seperate archetypes.

Seeing how this is the big constant throughout every FE game I can think of right now, I find that a lot more sensible than hair-splitting into multiple sub-categories that aren't even 100% clearly seperated (e.g. FE7!Marcus and FE10!Sothe who do start to underperform at the very endgame).

[Interdimensional Observer]

53 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Also what's Eyvale's age anyways? She still looks young despite being a Jagen.

 

"Around 35" according to the character ages page on this site.

That'd put

Spoiler

Brigid around 18 when she joins up in 759. 

This reminds me, a colorless sketch of Titania from one of the art books reminded me of Evayle. I mean colorless yeah they would obviously look similar, but it got me thinking. If Tellius was a return to Jugdral like Elibe was to Archanea and Magvel Valencia- was Titania inspired by Evayle? A mother to the motherless Ike and Mist like Evayle to Leif and the whole of Fiana? Titania's "apparent age" by the way is 30.

[FoxyGrandpa]

Yeah, Jeigans should be in the next Fire emblem game, but I think they should be killed off several chapters into the game to provide a sort of coming of age moment for the main lord. This was actually planned for the first FE game, but scrapped due to hardware limitations. I do feel this will solve many of the issues that Jeigans in general have, namely trivializing a good portion of the game / being useless after a few chapters.

[goodperson707]

I was trying to stick to the weakness of the op's arguments instead of style of of play and what definitions people use. But I think this thread is pretty much a different beast at this point.

 I don't really see the point in separating them too much, let Oifey be a sub category. (Of course Jagen would then be the broad type and also a sub-type) While yes how they end up working is different I don't see how the general and initial intent isn't there or that Oifey isn't a natural extension of the Jagen concept (And I think it blurs the Jagens that handle later game differently, I'd say only 1, 3 and 6 play it straight and I'm not that sure about 6 Marcus, while 5 and 14 handles that part differently)  Jagen (however it's spelt) is the first and most likely the more recognizable term. Yes the Oifey distinction is important for some topics and general statements about Jagens can ignore/misrepresent Oifeys but then general statements do that, they can also ignore differences in age or wether the archetype rides a horse or comes with a sliver weapon. So yeah put me down for all Oifeys are Jagens but not all Jagens are Oifeys

As for style of play, frankly I can't help but feeling that topic is (deeply) embedded in the previous one. 

Edited March 30, 2017 by goodperson707

[boarbaque]

18 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Oifey, if it is an archetype at all, is a sub-type of jagen/jegian; the essential characteristics of jagen (much higher-levelled early-joining character who can serve as a crutch) are still there. So it's not really accurate to say that jeigans are no longer around; Frederick is absolutely one. (Fates' implementation you can quibble over.)

In fairness, regarding growths: Seth, Titania and Frederick do all have high growths, but all three also have low stats for their level (not for their join time, of course, but for their level). In fact, even with their high growths, they're slightly below par at an arbitrary equal level (such as 20/15). in Frederick's case, more than slightly. So the high growths mostly serve the purpose of allowing them to stay at least competitive for all playstyles even late in the game.

On the other hand, characters like Marcus7 have both bad bases for their levels AND bad growths, so they will be far inferior to promoted cavaliers once they are at equal levels. This is totally fine from a balance perspective but a casual fan of Marcus might be disappointed (although he or she can console themself with the fact that Marcus has a decent case to be the best unit in the game anyway).

Marcus has good bases for his level. His strength, luck, and res all surpass a 20/1 Kent, with his defense just being 1.75 lower. Marcus's growths compliment his bases, and he will only not be able to double normal enemies late game, but speedwings will keep him doubling

[Flee Fleet!]

19 hours ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

Yeah, Jeigans should be in the next Fire emblem game, but I think they should be killed off several chapters into the game to provide a sort of coming of age moment for the main lord. This was actually planned for the first FE game, but scrapped due to hardware limitations. I do feel this will solve many of the issues that Jeigans in general have, namely trivializing a good portion of the game / being useless after a few chapters.

Yeah, this sounds like a good enough idea actually.

[Augestein]

Like Jagens for the story, but I hate them for the gameplay. I don't like the idea of a unit with "good bases for the chapter but bad for the level" unit. More often than not, it ends up just meaning "this unit is really good." 

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 2017-03-30 at 4:26 PM, boarbaque said:

Marcus has good bases for his level. His strength, luck, and res all surpass a 20/1 Kent, with his defense just being 1.75 lower.

I feel like you're trying to deliberately distort the truth here.

Marcus has +0.4 Str, +1.25 Res, and +2.6 Luck.
Meanwhile, Kent has +7.15 HP, +5.35 Spd, +1.5 Skl, +1.75 Def

Marcus' only wins are by small margins and the two which actally round to positive numbers are in unimportant stats. Meanwhile Kent has large wins in speed and HP, and even his small win in def is arguably worth as much as all of Marcus' stat leads combined. It's very clear that Kent has better stats at the same level. Sain and Lowen do as well. 11 speed is just awful for 20/1... even Oswin has more, albeit slightly.

Frederick's base stats are actually significantly worse for his level, such that he doesn't even begin to compare to other units at endgame. For instance:

20/20 Frederick:
48.9 HP, 25.4 Str, 3.9 Mag, 22.5 Skl, 19.5 Spd, 13.6 Lck, 24.5 Def, 7.8 Res
20/20 GK Sully:
60.4 HP, 33.3 Str, 8.4 Mag, 30.3 Skl, 28.3 Spd, 28.3 Lck, 31.6 Def, 12.3 Res

You can give Fred an extra level or two if you wish but it changes nothing.

I'm well aware that these units are great because they aren't at 20/1 when other units are 20/1. However, my point is that "good growths" don't actually mean that much for jeigans, since at best they offset their mediocre bases-for-their-level. Despite good growths, Seth and Titania do not end up better than their competition at endgame... just close enough that their performance before then causes them to be (correctly) evaluated them as overpowered when considering the game as a whole.

[solrocknroll]

The most underrated "Jagen" is probably Dagdar. Scrolls make his stats competitive for the entire game, he starts with skills already, and he can capture consistently from the beginning.

[Enaluxeme]

I personally prefer when the early prepromote has enough growths to be usable in the endgame. You still have to not overuse them in the beginning to grow the othe characters, but if they can't catch up later then there's no point in having them anymore, and I hate it.

That being said, FE7 Marcus is where I draw the line: anything Seth stronger Seth than that Seth is just too Seth much.

[L9999]

3 hours ago, Enaluxeme said:

I personally prefer when the early prepromote has enough growths to be usable in the endgame. You still have to not overuse them in the beginning to grow the othe characters, but if they can't catch up later then there's no point in having them anymore, and I hate it.

That being said, FE7 Marcus is where I draw the line: anything Seth stronger Seth than that Seth is just too Seth much.

Seth was a mistake. You could be in a coma and still beat a map because you deployed Seth.

5 hours ago, Veronica Sawyer said:

The most underrated "Jagen" is probably Dagdar. Scrolls make his stats competitive for the entire game, he starts with skills already, and he can capture consistently from the beginning.

I think Dagdar is the way to go for Jagens in terms of his utility and his payoff, but Dagdar works due to how Thracia plays out (capturing, scrolls, movement stars, Continue, critical coefficient, chapter 1 Brave Axe, etc). If he was in any other FE game then I would say he sucks.

[Refa]

He'd still be pretty good for a long while in say, the GBA games, for example.  Not as good as a Paladin, but better than your early game scrubs.

[Jedi]

5 hours ago, Veronica Sawyer said:

The most underrated "Jagen" is probably Dagdar. Scrolls make his stats competitive for the entire game, he starts with skills already, and he can capture consistently from the beginning.

He also can kill some end game enemies with his base stats. Which is pretty hardcore

[Jotari]

Overall enemy's in Thracia don't tend to be all that strong however. The difficulty comes from their formations, placement, ballista and status staves.

[Troykv]

Regardless of the original Oifey's quality as Prepromo (because Gen2!FE4 is the worse pre-Awakening game to don't be a complete growth unit unless you're Ced)

I classified the Original Early Prepromos in two kinds.

The non-growth Prepromo (Aka: Jeigan) and the growth prepromo (Aka: Oifey)... But unlike the other definitions, I don't think a Oifey needs to be always be a Top Tier (The original Oifey is still good enough for most of the game but even since the Chapter 6 is already outclassed for some units); and not every Jeigan needs to be useless in the late game (Dadgar literally only doesn't work in the Last two chapters because of Dark Mage Spam + Charge).

Edited April 3, 2017 by Troykv

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

The main thing why I don't like Dagda is because of his charge, a skill which screws him more than it helps. He uses the most inaccurate weapon type and isn't the dodgiest. You can see it very well in ch. 8x where he has actually more trouble to survive than Tanya just because of this skill.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Magillanica Lou Mayvin

[boarbaque]

17 hours ago, Magillanica Lou Mayvin said:

The main thing why I don't like Dagda is because of his charge, a skill which screws him more than it helps. He uses the most inaccurate weapon type and isn't the dodgiest. You can see it very well in ch. 8x where he has actually more trouble to survive than Tanya just because of this skill.

I wish charge worked like it did in TRS where it was a prebattle command you could only use on player phase

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Huh? Dagda actually super carried 8x for me

Just go like Axe 1st round for the initial enemies then start equiping bow for the second phase and start chucking down Vulnerary. Also put Tanya on the spot where she still provides support to Dagda, but the enemy will still capture her.

 

He's always insane in all of my FE5 runthrough with Brave Axe and Bows

 

Really what makes the Jeigan Oifey distinction really weird for me is because their ussual placement didn't show their actual game performance for an archetype distinction that is usually oriented around gameplay performance

Frederick is supposedly an Oifey with his stats growth and reclass, but in actual Awakening gameplay, Frederick is literally what happened if FE6 Marcus is revamped into a high growth environment. Heck mid game Frederiick works exactly like Shadow Dragon Jeigan - they are really only there for their ability to one shot with forged effective weapons

 

I mean i'm perfectly aware that there are a significant difference between Jeigan like Marcus, Finn, Oifey, and Seth who are at their prime to Jeigan like Marcus, Jeigan, and Arran who is sick and old, but using gameplay performance is just too abritrary for my taste

@Interdimensional Observer And yes, Titania is actually inspired by FE5 character. Although its Finn. The pattern of experienced knight who falls in love with the main character's father is put into Titania, but the blue haired Brave Lance pattern is put into Geoffrey.

Greil is the standard main character parent that is killed off, but he's pretty simmilar to Eyvel, they both used weapons they aren't known as and is basically disabled, and is killed early on to give motivation to their lord by a Black Knight

The fact that FE5 and FE9 both had their main character "leading" a band of mercenary ticks it too

Edited April 4, 2017 by JSND

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, JSND said:

Finn

I don't know if Finn can be considered a Jaigen tbh....He's still an important unit whichever way you look at it.

 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

12 minutes ago, Harvey said:

I don't know if Finn can be considered a Jaigen tbh....He's still an important unit whichever way you look at it.

 

 

The thing with Finn is that him being unpromoted is literally the only thing that didn't make him an extremely obvious Jeigan. Story wise, Finn is by far the most Jeigan of the bunch, being a parental figure and even acts as Leif primary advisor back in FE4.  Even gameplay wise he fits the Jeiganing role in FE5 since he do starts as a more experienced character than the rest of the starting crew. Even in FE4, Iron Lance Finn plays a babysitter role towards Leif. He is basically what Oifey is to Seliph that he is to Leif

Like lets put it this way, if you trace back FE5 characters into FE1, if August is clearly Malledus,  and Leif is clearly Marth, Finn is the closest character that is clearly Jeigan.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by JSND

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, JSND said:

 

The thing with Finn is that him being unpromoted is literally the only thing that didn't make him an extremely obvious Jeigan. Story wise, Finn is by far the most Jeigan of the bunch, and even gameplay wise he fits the Jeiganing role in FE5 since he do starts as a more experienced character than the rest of the starting crew.

 

He's still a useful character till the end though. I can't say for Thracia since I haven't played it but for Holy War, he's the only unit that comes in both gens and depending on what you do with him in first gen, he can still be useful regardless.

As for thracia, I think he's still needed to capture units correct?

Story wise, idk if he fits the Jaigen role seeing as how he raised Leif when his parents were killed...can't say I know of a Jaigen that did the same.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Harvey