Lyn should have used Murgleis

[bethany81707]

11 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

Another thing that I just realized that might be why Lyn wasn't given Murgleis. The fact that it's a sacred relic of Sacae's would entail going to Sacae to return it. And, unless if I'm not mistaken, there's no guarantee that Lyn would even return to Sacae, given that she has paired endings with Eliwood and Hector.

Did we have any guarantee of them returning Armads?

[Magical Glace]

1 hour ago, Just call me AL said:

Another thing that I just realized that might be why Lyn wasn't given Murgleis. The fact that it's a sacred relic of Sacae's would entail going to Sacae to return it. And, unless if I'm not mistaken, there's no guarantee that Lyn would even return to Sacae, given that she has paired endings with Eliwood and Hector.

Armads got back to that poisonous cave in the Western Isles just fine, so I don't see how that's really an issue.  And that's waaaaaaay more out of the way than Sacae is.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Glaceon Mage

[Just call me AL]

40 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Armads got back to that poisonous cave in the Western Isles just fine, so I don't see how that's really an issue.  And that's waaaaaaay more out of the way than Sacae is.

It's less to do with the location, and more to do with who would likely be returning the item.

[Magical Glace]

3 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

It's less to do with the location, and more to do with who would likely be returning the item.

Again, if Hector is capable of going to the Islands to return Armads, I don't see why Lyn can't take time to go back to Sacae for the purpose of returning Murgleis should she marry Eliwood/Hector.

Or she could just hand it to Rath or something.

[Baldrick]

10 hours ago, Titamon said:

FYI guys, Lyn learned the art of swordplay from her father Hassur. And the genocide of her clan and parents, by the Taliver bandits, was the primary motivator for her mastering the sword. Turning her into a bow user ruins much of her character motivations. If she's going to avenge her family, then the sword skills taught to her by her father are the perfect tool to achieve this. A bow is an indirect weapon, a sword is close range. The bow is just not as intimate of a weapon as a sword is. So latter imo is more fitting for Lyn to use.

Neither Nergal nor the Fire Dragon killed her family. And it's not like using Murgleis would be wildly OOC for her, she's proud of her Sacaean heritage.

[Harvey]

3 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Again, if Hector is capable of going to the Islands to return Armads, I don't see why Lyn can't take time to go back to Sacae for the purpose of returning Murgleis should she marry Eliwood/Hector

Except the problem with that is that the Sacae nation itself is endangered and not that many people are aware of the Murglesis existence? 

 

[Magical Glace]

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except the problem with that is that the Sacae nation itself is endangered and not that many people are aware of the Murglesis existence? 

 

Sacae isn't in danger, where are you getting that from?

And why would they not know of the existence of the sacred weapon their founder used in the Scouring?  The entire continent knows about them.

[Harvey]

2 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Sacae isn't in danger, where are you getting that from?

And why would they not know of the existence of the sacred weapon their founder used in the Scouring?  The entire continent knows about them.

Seeing how small the nation was and that it was told that in FE7, Lyn is one of the last of her tribe, I thought that it was under low population.

Also no. If they did knew about it, then it wouldn't have ended under Yoder's hand now would it?

 

[Magical Glace]

1 minute ago, Harvey said:

Seeing how small the nation was and that it was told that in FE7, Lyn is one of the last of her tribe, I thought that it was under low population.

Also no. If they did knew about it, then it wouldn't have ended under Yoder's hand now would it?

 

That was just her tribe.

The rest of the place was fine.

Yoder presumably obtained it with Sacaean help while Roy was in Illia, considering that the requisite for 20x Sacae needs the three Nomads to survive so that they can lead you to it.  And Sue, Shin, and Dayan wouldn't be able to lead Roy to it if they didn't know about one of the weapons a good chunk of the continent's lore speaks of.

[Harvey]

3 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

That was just her tribe.

The rest of the place was fine.

Yoder presumably obtained it with Sacaean help while Roy was in Illia, considering that the requisite for 20x Sacae needs the three Nomads to survive so that they can lead you to it.  And Sue, Shin, and Dayan wouldn't be able to lead Roy to it if they didn't know about one of the weapons a good chunk of the continent's lore speaks of.

Oh well I didn't get to the route so how should I know?

Anyways, the fact that it was guarded by the ones of the opposite tribe and not really that used or mentioned, then why even keep it there in the first place? 

 

[Magical Glace]

1 minute ago, Harvey said:

Oh well I didn't get to the route so how should I know?

Anyways, the fact that it was guarded by the ones of the opposite tribe and not really that used or mentioned, then why even keep it there in the first place? 

Because the Djute and Bern had defeated the Kutolah, more or less taking control of the country?  This is mentioned by Sue in Chapter 6.  It figures they'd have the Divine Weapon as well.

[Harvey]

2 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Because the Djute and Bern had defeated the Kutolah, more or less taking control of the country?  This is mentioned by Sue in Chapter 6.  It figures they'd have the Divine Weapon as well.

It still doesn't mention whether they used it to defeat Kutolah or not though.

but the point is Lyn can't possibly return the Murglesis because it wasn't given to her and it wasn't given to her because she's not trained in bows nor did she ever wanted to do that. If that really was the case, she'd be a Nomad trooper with a horse, sword and bow for that.

 

[Magical Glace]

Just now, Harvey said:

It still doesn't mention whether they used it to defeat Kutolah or not though.

but the point is Lyn can't possibly return the Murglesis because it wasn't given to her and it wasn't given to her because she's not trained in bows nor did she ever wanted to do that. If that really was the case, she'd be a Nomad trooper with a horse, sword and bow for that.

Considering they put it in a shrine and protected it, I don't think they actually used it to fight.

The fact she didn't receive it is irrelevant.  In a hypothetical scenario where she did receive it, she should have been able to return it.  

And the mere fact she receives bows upon promotion shows she does have some training with them, if not as much as swords.

[Harvey]

21 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Considering they put it in a shrine and protected it, I don't think they actually used it to fight.

The fact she didn't receive it is irrelevant.  In a hypothetical scenario where she did receive it, she should have been able to return it.  

And the mere fact she receives bows upon promotion shows she does have some training with them, if not as much as swords.

I was talking about it interms of story and not in terms of gameplay. Ranking her bows means nothing if in the end she wasn't given the damn thing to begin with.

 

[Magical Glace]

48 minutes ago, Harvey said:

I was talking about it interms of story and not in terms of gameplay. Ranking her bows means nothing if in the end she wasn't given the damn thing to begin with.

I disagree that it means nothing.  If you can use a weapon, you can use a weapon.

[Just call me AL]

To be honest, though, I can't ever recall any instances where a character, main or otherwise, is able to use a Prf weapon that's a weapon they're not proficient in at first. Lewyn!Coipre is an exception, but I can't imagine him using Forseti without substantial investment.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Just call me AL

[bethany81707]

41 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

To be honest, though, I can't ever recall any instances where a character, main or otherwise, is able to use a Prf weapon that's a weapon they're not proficient in at first. Lewyn!Coipre is an exception, but I can't imagine him using Forseti without substantial investment.

Does Elincia count? If not, I'll have to do my own digging.

Nanna and Mist, too, I suppose.

 

EDIT (Results of digging): Add Celica to the pile of units above, quibble about Minerva, Caeda and Sheena having access to the Aum staff in the Akaneia remakes, and the best answer to your question is "Olwen, with a Prf Holy Sword".

Edited April 21, 2017 by phineas81707

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Does Elincia count? If not, I'll have to do my own digging.

Nanna and Mist, too, I suppose.

 

EDIT (Results of digging): Add Celica to the pile of units above, quibble about Minerva, Caeda and Sheena having access to the Aum staff in the Akaneia remakes, and the best answer to your question is "Olwen, with a Prf Holy Sword".

Well Olwen can use Swords from the  very start. She just has more focus on magic until being given the Holy Sword...of course I wouldn't at all object if Lyn could use Swords and Bows from tier one. Best of both worlds there. Give Eliwood Lances from base as well and the two of them might actually be balanced compared to Hector.

[bethany81707]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well Olwen can use Swords from the  very start. She just has more focus on magic until being given the Holy Sword...of course I wouldn't at all object if Lyn could use Swords and Bows from tier one. Best of both worlds there. Give Eliwood Lances from base as well and the two of them might actually be balanced compared to Hector.

I'm going to agree with this. Lyn's probably got a lot of experience hunting on her own, and bows are a lot more useful for that than swords. Eliwood also has an S Lance Rank in Binding Blade that the developers forgot in Blazing Blade when giving Eliwood a closer resemblence to Roy.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Lyn's Bow Rank starts at D on promotion- not E. So she probably has some skill with one. The only other cases where one starts with a weapon rank above an E on promotion are the other two lords and Cleric/Monk into Bishop (presumably because Staffs and Light Magic are magically similar).

Also, found this in the FE7 Unused Content section:

The “Lycian Knight” appears to be the predecessor of Eliwood’s Lord class; it is a mounted class that wields both swords and lances (with a higher proficiency in lances) and promotes into a Paladin. The “Lycian Swordfighter” is almost identical to Lyn’s Lord class, but promotes to Swordmaster instead. Hector’s “Lycian Armorknight” class promotes to General and can wield both swords and axes. All three classes share the map and battle animations of the Lord classes and, in the English version, they have the same names as the corresponding promoted Lord classes (eg. Lycian Knight is named Knight Lord).

 

Seems to me like Eliwood was at one point going to be using Maltet, and Lyn Durandal. Probably however because: Eliwood was Roy's father, a kid who uses a fiery sword; because the fiery Durandal is Lycian like Eliwood, while Maltet is Ilian; and because swords are always considered more heroic than lances in JRPGs, the developers had Eliwood drop Maltet, gave him Durandal, and invented a cheap replacement sword for Lyn.

[Cornguy]

Personally I would've liked Lyn to start with bows in addition to Eliwood starting with lances. Then you tie all the lords together by giving them swords on promotion.

Either that or let them all start with their secondary weapon in their 1st tiers. Not sure what FE has against dual weapons on non-cavalier 1st tier classes. 

Durandal would be usable by all three, and you'd still get the other three weapons.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Cornguy

[Harvey]

I still don't get why people want Lyn to either use Murglesis or be a bow lord to begin with. She and I will say this again and again, was NEVER trained in bows to begin with! If she really was trained as bows, then it would only make sense for her to be a nomadic trooper which can't happen because story wise, she doesn't have a horse. If she had a horse, then I'd agree that Murglesis can be used since its a gift from Sacae which according to the gameplay logic of binding blade, only four Sacaeans are available, out of which, three of them have horses that CAN use Murglesis.

And before you come up with Eliwood coming with one that wasn't story related, Eliwood was blessed by Athos who would have probably had magic to summon him a horse despite it not being mentioned through dialogue.

[Baldrick]

Hector is a sword general, Eliwood is a paladin with 7 move, I don't get why Lyn can't be an infantry nomad trooper.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

I still don't get why people want Lyn to either use Murglesis or be a bow lord to begin with. She and I will say this again and again, was NEVER trained in bows to begin with! If she really was trained as bows, then it would only make sense for her to be a nomadic trooper which can't happen because story wise, she doesn't have a horse. If she had a horse, then I'd agree that Murglesis can be used since its a gift from Sacae which according to the gameplay logic of binding blade, only four Sacaeans are available, out of which, three of them have horses that CAN use Murglesis.

And before you come up with Eliwood coming with one that wasn't story related, Eliwood was blessed by Athos who would have probably had magic to summon him a horse despite it not being mentioned through dialogue.

You seem to have a very loose understanding of hypotheticals. Yes Lyn doesn't use Murgleis or any major association with bows in the current game. But she 'could' have had and some people (the majority judging by the poll) would have preferred it.

[shadowofchaos]

I'd say people overlook that if she was a bow lord, and her current generation of FE games back then... she could have easily been considered the worst lord in FE just from her starting weapon.

Like, Roy is bad for endgame reasons. Lyn would have been difficult to implement. And this was a lot of people's first FE game in the west.

Edited May 12, 2017 by shadowofchaos