Are you okay that [spoilers] is in the game?

[Yula]

I honestly and truly do not have an opinion on this. As far as I am concerned, it is just more content for me to playthough. Which gives me more game time for the money that I will spend on the game. Always beneficial to how I view a game.

[Dragrath]

15 minutes ago, Slumber said:

My only problem with the whole "Grima did the fusion dance with the Earth Dragons" thing is that it seems like a Divine Dragon that obtained the powers of all the Earth Dragons should have been waaaaaaay more powerful than Grima was. He had some nifty utility stuff going, but his actual abilities were more or less exactly the same as Loptyr, arguably weaker, in fact(And Loptyr didn't even have a body for more than a few seconds at a time).

So either Loptyr was just THAT powerful for an Earth Dragon, and the rest of his clan was a bunch of jobbers by comparison, or Grima got power through some other method.

That is a good counterpoint though I would argue Loptyr probably was above the average earth dragon due to delving deep into magic particularly dark magic/becoming a dark dragon. Dragon wise he probably could be more of an earth dragon equivalent of pre Manakete Gotah. 

Now the real issue is what went on at the dragon's table... (If the timeline is ever revisited I don't get why they don't use the wonderful potential of Loptyr to well be a competent villain. 

12 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

Which means we have plot holes regardless of what we do. Still, I will take "power levels are bullshit" type plotholes over "what the hell happened to the other Earth Dragons and why do Falchion and the Shield of Seals do completely different things" plot holes

This hits the heart of the issue. The fusion theory was so strong because it accounted for those elements.

 

Now a possibility that comes to mind for the artificial undead horror Grima is that the earth dragons might still be sealed but Grima could be siphoning off some of the remnant powers from the Dragon's table. The sacrificing humans and the use of the stones on the shield of seals could simply be a conduit to drain that power w/ Grima in a weakened state. (the sacrifice also because of Grima's disdain for humans due to being created)

The similarities to Loptyr could then be a literal example of "imitation is the greatest form of flattery" rather than an earth dragon connection.

[Time the Crestfallen]

15 minutes ago, Slumber said:

My only problem with the whole "Grima did the fusion dance with the Earth Dragons" thing is that it seems like a Divine Dragon that obtained the powers of all the Earth Dragons should have been waaaaaaay more powerful than Grima was. He had some nifty utility stuff going, but his actual abilities were more or less exactly the same as Loptyr, arguably weaker, in fact(And Loptry didn't even have a body for more than a few seconds at a time).

So either Loptyr was just THAT powerful for an Earth Dragon, and the rest of his clan was a bunch of jobbers by comparison, or Grima got power through some other method.

Didn't Grima go to Origin Peak because he wasn't at full power yet? And this is after he travels through time after Lucina and the gang, which I'm pretty sure also took a chunk out of his power. Besides, if you wanna bring feats into things he kills Naga in Future Past, which is better than anything I can remember Loptyr doing.

[Shadowess]

I voted neutral, but I'm realizing that I really don't care either way, it's just sort of there. It'll be interesting to see what they do with it, though.

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Dragrath said:

That is a good counterpoint though I would argue Loptyr probably was above the average earth dragon due to delving deep into magic particularly dark magic/becoming a dark dragon. Dragon wise he probably could be more of an earth dragon equivalent of pre Manakete Gotah. 

Now the real issue is what went on at the dragon's table... (If the timeline is ever revisited I don't get why they don't use the wonderful potential of Loptyr to well be a competent villain.

Was it ever stated that Loptyr became a Dark Dragon? I thought he was Earth through and through, being essentially the Earth equivalent of Naga. Loptyr basically orchestrated everything in FE4/5 from an entirely different plane of existence, and empowered Julius so much that basically only Naga's blood/Julia could even put a dent in him without the very real possibility of getting obliterated. And Julius was channeling Loptyr intermittently, with Loptyr only showing up briefly through the Book of Loptyr.

Imagine what he'd do if the dragon itself showed up without any limitations like Grima at the end of Awakening. I do think he should come back, since it's implied that by destroying his blood pact by killing Julius, only his link to the world was severed, and he was still around in that dimension he was hanging out in when not being summoned through the book. I feel like the Grima story could be a good way to bring back Loptyr and the Earth Dragons potentially for a future FE game set in the Jugdral/Archanea/Valentia world.

[Slumber]

14 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

Didn't Grima go to Origin Peak because he wasn't at full power yet? And this is after he travels through time after Lucina and the gang, which I'm pretty sure also took a chunk out of his power. Besides, if you wanna bring feats into things he kills Naga in Future Past, which is better than anything I can remember Loptyr doing.

The Naga in Jugdral had the Crusaders(Humans given dragon blood) and a shit ton of dragons to help her fight Loptyr. By the time of Awakening, the number of dragons had dwindled considerably, to the point where it was really just her, Tiki, and potentially Bantu(Who probably isn't going to help for shit against somebody like Grima) for pure blood dragons.

Plus, the Naga in Jugdral was potentially over 10,000 years younger than the Naga during the events of Awakening.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Slumber

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd think if we ever find more about the time of the First Exalt and Grima's first rampage (future game eventually?), that whole thing might get fleshed out more. But until then...}

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Plus, the Naga in Jugdral was potentially over 10,000 years younger than the Naga during the events of Awakening.

I don't think Naga's age is really a factor there, considering she died and revive at some point (so age would be "reset").

[Time the Crestfallen]

3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

The Naga in Jugdral had the Crusaders(Humans given dragon blood) and a shit ton of dragons to help her fight Loptyr. By the time of Awakening, the number of dragons had dwindled considerably, to the point where it was really just her, Tiki, and potentially Bantu(Who probably isn't going to help for shit against somebody like Grima) for pure blood dragons.

Plus, the Naga in Jugdral was potentially over 10,000 years younger than the Naga during the events of Awakening.

I'm pretty sure the Dragons and Crusaders were different things. There was a Dragon War, then Loptyr fucked off to do his own thing on Judgral and then the Crusaders happened. Also, it's not as if they had all that just to fight Loptyr as if he were a raid boss; he had a whole empire to command. And like you said, the Book of Naga is the only thing that can really do anything against whoever has the Loptyr tome, much like how Exalted Falchion is the only thing that does much against Grima.

I don't think this is gonna go anywhere though. It's not like Fire Emblem is a fight series where you can compare feats (beyond mere speculation that is) and both Grima and Loptyr are immortal in one way or another (Grima can't be killed outside of his own power and Loptyr does the whole 'so long as evil lurks in the hearts of men' spiel).

[TheWerdna]

21 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Was it ever stated that Loptyr became a Dark Dragon? I thought he was Earth through and through, being essentially the Earth equivalent of Naga. Loptyr basically orchestrated everything in FE4/5 from an entirely different plane of existence, and empowered Julius so much that basically only Naga's blood/Julia could even put a dent in him without the very real possibility of getting obliterated. And Julius was channeling Loptyr intermittently, with Loptyr only showing up briefly through the Book of Loptyr.

Imagine what he'd do if the dragon itself showed up without any limitations like Grima at the end of Awakening. I do think he should come back, since it's implied that by destroying his blood pact by killing Julius, only his link to the world was severed, and he was still around in that dimension he was hanging out in when not being summoned through the book. I feel like the Grima story could be a good way to bring back Loptyr and the Earth Dragons potentially for a future FE game set in the Jugdral/Archanea/Valentia world.

I know the game classifies Loptyr as a Dark Dragon, not sure about story wise. However, that would explain as lot, as he does not seem to be a normal Earth Dragon. That would make sense too, considering he has a unique bloodpact different from the other Crusaders where he is completely bonded to his bloodline. So it would make sense that Loptry was probably an simply above average Earth Dragon who elevated himself beyond the rest of his kind through dark magic

[Dragrath]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Was it ever stated that Loptyr became a Dark Dragon? I thought he was Earth through and through, being essentially the Earth equivalent of Naga. Loptyr basically orchestrated everything in FE4/5 from an entirely different plane of existence, and empowered Julius so much that basically only Naga's blood/Julia could even put a dent in him without the very real possibility of getting obliterated. And Julius was channeling Loptyr intermittently, with Loptyr only showing up briefly through the Book of Loptyr.

Imagine what he'd do if the dragon itself showed up without any limitations like Grima at the end of Awakening. I do think he should come back, since it's implied that by destroying his blood pact by killing Julius, only his link to the world was severed, and he was still around in that dimension he was hanging out in when not being summoned through the book. I feel like the Grima story could be a good way to bring back Loptyr and the Earth Dragons potentially for a future FE game set in the Jugdral/Archanea/Valentia world.

I guess it was his art appearance that lead to that presumption in the other thread. I agree that Loptyr is one of the series best villains though for any future content in the Jugdral/Archanea/Valentia world all he needs to plot another return is to form a connection to the physical plain. There are so many ways it could be done too as Loptyr seems to be a villain that does things for a reason with an endgame that we never learned.  Quite unlike the unstable Grima who simply wanted to erase humanity... *cough* At least we now have a possible motive in an inferiority complex and trying to erase its creators.

Being an unstable artificial undead abomination might help explain Grima but nothing can ever save Validar from being pathetically evil for no reason so that will be a sad loose end that only a remake could fix...

I did have a thought while writing this is it possible that Grima might have been a potential pawn for Loptyr? I can see Grima looking up to Loptyr but Loptyr looking down on the "fake" dragon. I mainly bring this up with Naga's claim that neither she nor Grima can destroy each other as the one possibility that I can think of to explain that is if Grima had help from someone who CAN... Perhaps Naga's death in future past is simply part of Loptyr's plan to remove the thorn that is Naga from play? Naga expects to fight Grima to standstill only to face an attack launched and prepared by Loptyr or something. It would explain that pesky plot hole in a way at least(would have worked w/out extra dimensional aide)

[Slumber]

13 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

I'm pretty sure the Dragons and Crusaders were different things. There was a Dragon War, then Loptyr fucked off to do his own thing on Judgral and then the Crusaders happened. Also, it's not as if they had all that just to fight Loptyr as if he were a raid boss; he had a whole empire to command. And like you said, the Book of Naga is the only thing that can really do anything against whoever has the Loptyr tome, much like how Exalted Falchion is the only thing that does much against Grima.

I don't think this is gonna go anywhere though. It's not like Fire Emblem is a fight series where you can compare feats (beyond mere speculation that is) and both Grima and Loptyr are immortal in one way or another (Grima can't be killed outside of his own power and Loptyr does the whole 'so long as evil lurks in the hearts of men' spiel).

There was a dragon war, where the Earth Dragons fucked off and went crazy(Except Loptyr and Medeus), but that was essentially Loptyr on his own, due to Medeus basically agreeing to come to terms with the non-Earth Dragons, and the other Earth Dragons losing their minds. And even then, Loptyr managed to fend off Naga and her ally dragons.

Then the Crusader thing happened later, where big-shot dragons made blood pacts with humans(The Crusaders) to fight Galle, the human who made a blood pact with Loptyr and caused the big 'ol war 1000 years before the Jugdral games.

In the first case, it was basically Loptyr and a bunch of degenerates versus every other dragon. In the second case, it was a 12-on-1 of the Dragons' representatives vs. Loptyr's 1 representative. Either way you slice it, the odds were much more in favor for Grima being able to kill Naga than Loptyr's, due to Naga not really having the number advantage like she did all of those thousands and thousands of years ago.

And it's true that FE isn't really the type of series where you can compare powers, but the whole amalgamation theory revolves around Grima getting power from a group of dragons Loptyr previously led. It's basically asking for comparison when there seems to be a discrepancy in their displays of power that we learn in their stories.

If the lord in the next FE game says that they've got the combined strength of every previous lord except for Ike, and still ends up being weaker than Ike, you'd start questioning things and comparing them to Ike.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Slumber

[TheWerdna]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

There was a dragon war, where the Earth Dragons fucked off and went crazy(Except Loptyr and Medeus), but that was essentially Loptyr on his own, due to Medeus basically agreeing to come to terms with the non-Earth Dragons, and the other Earth Dragons losing their minds. And even then, Loptyr managed to fend off Naga and her ally dragons.

Then the Crusader thing happened later, where big-shot dragons made blood pacts with humans(The Crusaders) to fight Galle, the human who made a blood pact with Loptyr and caused the big 'ol war 1000 years before the Jugdral games.

In the first case, it was basically Loptyr and a bunch of degenerates versus every other dragon. In the second case, it was a 12-on-1 of the Dragons' representatives vs. Loptyr's 1 representative. Either way you slice it, the odds were much more in favor for Grima being able to kill Naga than Loptyr's, due to Naga not really having the number advantage like she did all of those thousands and thousands of years ago.

And it's true that FE isn't really the type of series where you can compare powers, but the whole amalgamation theory revolves around Grima getting power from a group of dragons Loptyr previously led. It's basically asking for comparison when there seems to be a discrepancy in their displays of power.

I don't recall Loptyr being the leader of the Earth Dragons during the war. I'm pretty sure he went "fuck this shit, I'm out" and ran off to Jugdral with a bloodpact to keep himself from denigrating. In fact, I think that was the point, he basically bailed to save himself and hoped he could live a quite peaceful life ruling over Jugdral. Then the other Divine Dragons, who it seems had by this point already won the war, found out and went "oops, we missed one. Better clean this up. But since we are lazy and can't be bothered to do it ourselves, lets empower some mortals and give them blinged out weapons to clean this up."

[Slumber]

4 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

I don't recall Loptyr being the leader of the Earth Dragons during the war. I'm pretty sure he went "fuck this shit, I'm out" and ran off to Jugdral with a bloodpact to keep himself from denigrating. In fact, I think that was the point, he basically bailed to save himself and hoped he could live a quite peaceful life ruling over Jugdral. Then the other Divine Dragons, who it seems had by this point already won the war, found out and went "oops, we missed one. Better clean this up. But since we are lazy and can't be bothered to do it ourselves, lets empower some mortals and give them blinged out weapons to clean this up."

There was a war that went on with the Earth Dragons and the other dragons. As time went on, the Earth Dragons mentally degraded, with Loptyr and Medeus being the only ones to keep their sanity. It might be a stretch to call Loptyr their "leader", but he was the only one with a mind capable of leading and being an actual threat. Loptyr was always a problem to the other dragons purely because he kept his mind. He fucked off to Jugdral when he started losing his physical body, and that's when he made the pact with Galle who submitted Loptyr, and kicked off the Crusader war.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Slumber

[John_of_Valentia]

Grima was always a massive question mark. How could this be anything but good?

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

There was a war that went on with the Earth Dragons and the other dragons. As time went on, the Earth Dragons mentally degraded, with Loptyr and Medeus being the only ones to keep their sanity. It might be a stretch to call Loptyr their "leader", but he was the only one with a mind capable of leading. Loptyr was always a problem to the other dragons purely because he kept his mind. He fucked off to Jugdral when he started losing his physical body, and that's when he made the pact with Galle who submitted Loptyr, and kicked off the Crusader war.

Actually, no, the Earth Dragons degenerated, then waged war. The timeline states the degeneration happened (or started, at any rate) around Year -1000 in the Archanean Calendar, and the war (against mankind at first, btw) was in Year -740. Coincidentally, Year -740 coincides with Grann Calendar 440, when Loptyr made his pact with Galle.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[TheWerdna]

Just now, Slumber said:

There was a war that went on with the Earth Dragons and the other dragons. As time went on, the Earth Dragons mentally degraded, with Loptyr and Medeus being the only ones to keep their sanity. It might be a stretch to call Loptyr their "leader", but he was the only one with a mind capable of leading. Loptyr was always a problem to the other dragons purely because he kept his mind. He fucked off to Jugdral when he started losing his physical body, and that's when he made the pact with Galle who submitted Loptyr, and kicked off the Crusader war.

Fair point. However, its really hard to judge how powerful the Divine Dragons are vs the Earth Dragons, since it seems like 1) they have to avoid using their full power, as doing so would lead to degradation and 2) the Divine Dragons have this really weird no direct interference policy where they like to act through humans they give powerful weapons to.

Plus the fact that it took the 12 Crusaders to beat Loptyr doesn't work as a direct comparison, since Loptyr's bloodpact has his full power and consciousness tied to his bloodline where the 12 Divine Dragons just infused their bloodlines with a portion of their power. Seems more like they went the route of quantity over quality.

[Slumber]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Actually, no, the Earth Dragons degenerated, then waged war. The timeline states the degeneration happened around Year -1000 in the Archanean Calendar, and the war was in Year -740. Coincidentally, Year -740 coincides with Grann Calendar 440, when Loptyr made his pact with Galle.

Didn't the war happen all throughout the degeneration(In fact, doesn't the opening of FE4 say that the dragon war happened 1000 years prior to the start of the game)? Wasn't the degeneration a response to the Earth Dragons refusing to live with humans? That leaves 260 years of fighting before Loptry came to Jugdral and ditched the Earth Dragons.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Slumber

[Time the Crestfallen]

11 minutes ago, Slumber said:

There was a dragon war, where the Earth Dragons fucked off and went crazy(Except Loptyr and Medeus), but that was essentially Loptyr on his own, due to Medeus basically agreeing to come to terms with the non-Earth Dragons, and the other Earth Dragons losing their minds. And even then, Loptyr managed to fend off Naga and her ally dragons.

Then the Crusader thing happened later, where big-shot dragons made blood pacts with humans(The Crusaders) to fight Galle, the human who made a blood pact with Loptyr and caused the big 'ol war 1000 years before the Jugdral games.

In the first case, it was basically Loptyr and a bunch of degenerates versus every other dragon. In the second case, it was a 12-on-1 of the Dragons' representatives vs. Loptyr's 1 representative. Either way you slice it, the odds were much more in favor for Grima being able to kill Naga than Loptyr's, due to Naga not really having the number advantage like she did all of those thousands and thousands of years ago.

And it's true that FE isn't really the type of series where you can compare powers, but the whole amalgamation theory revolves around Grima getting power from a group of dragons Loptyr previously led. It's basically asking for comparison when there seems to be a discrepancy in their displays of power that we learn in their stories.

If the lord in the next FE game says that they've got the combined strength of every previous lord except for Ike, and still ends up being weaker than Ike, you'd start questioning things and comparing them to Ike.

I dunno. I'm reading the wiki (since I haven't played Judgral) and nothing about it indicates that Loptyr was a leader. He just kinda peace'd out when things started going poorly for the Earth Tribe. It also says that Galle was killed by Heim, which gives the impression that the whole Crusader thing ultimately came down to a 1v1 between Galle and Heim, which Galle obviously lost. If Loptyr's tome loses to Book of Naga, but Grima can kill Naga it really seems like Grima's the stronger of the two.

I still think Anankos is stronger than all of them, since he's the only one with clear demonstrations of power.

5 minutes ago, Slumber said:

There was a war that went on with the Earth Dragons and the other dragons. As time went on, the Earth Dragons mentally degraded, with Loptyr and Medeus being the only ones to keep their sanity. It might be a stretch to call Loptyr their "leader", but he was the only one with a mind capable of leading. Loptyr was always a problem to the other dragons purely because he kept his mind. He fucked off to Jugdral when he started losing his physical body, and that's when he made the pact with Galle who submitted Loptyr, and kicked off the Crusader war.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he lost his body because of the blood-pact he did with Galle, but idk.

[John_of_Valentia]

5 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

Fair point. However, its really hard to judge how powerful the Divine Dragons are vs the Earth Dragons, since it seems like 1) they have to avoid using their full power, as doing so would lead to degradation and 2) the Divine Dragons have this really weird no direct interference policy where they like to act through humans they give powerful weapons to.

Plus the fact that it took the 12 Crusaders to beat Loptyr doesn't work as a direct comparison, since Loptyr's bloodpact has his full power and consciousness tied to his bloodline where the 12 Divine Dragons just infused their bloodlines with a portion of their power. Seems more like they went the route of quantity over quality.

Wouldn't Tiki be a good example to study Divine Dragon power? Regardless of whether or not she uses full power, every manakete she fought would typically go down in one round if not one hit due to her divine status.

Edited April 4, 2017 by John_of_Valentia

[Slumber]

Just now, Mortarion said:

I dunno. I'm reading the wiki (since I haven't played Judgral) and nothing about it indicates that Loptyr was a leader. He just kinda peace'd out when things started going poorly for the Earth Tribe. It also says that Galle was killed by Heim, which gives the impression that the whole Crusader thing ultimately came down to a 1v1 between Galle and Heim, which Galle obviously lost. If Loptyr's tome loses to Book of Naga, but Grima can kill Naga it really seems like Grima's the stronger of the two.

I still think Anankos is stronger than all of them, since he's the only one with clear demonstrations of power.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he lost his body because of the blood-pact he did with Galle, but idk.

Anankos is definitely the strongest dragon we've seen, purely because it seems like he can do literally anything.

It's not so much a "Loptyr was the strongest dragon" it was more "Loptyr as an Earth Dragon seems more impressive than Grima if Grima is supposed to be EVERY OTHER Earth Dragon".

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Slumber said:

Didn't the war happen all throughout the degeneration(In fact, doesn't the opening of FE4 say that the dragon war happened 1000 years prior to Archanea)? Wasn't the degeneration a response to the Earth Dragons refusing to live with humans? That leaves 260 years of fighting.

No, the timeline states war started 260~ years after they began to degenerate, not during the whole degeneration process, and it was mostly since the mindless Earth Dragons were slaughtering mankind, prompting Naga to do something about it. The opening of Genealogy doesn't mention events in Archanea, best I remember. No, it was because they opted to not become Manaketes. Degeneration in dragons happened because of their own power, hence the options were kept thier power in their bodies and degenerate, or store it elsewhere (dragonstones), and assume a form that doesn't use much energy (humans). Earth Dragons refused, mostly out of pride or something, except for Prince Medeus.

[Time the Crestfallen]

2 minutes ago, John_of_Valentia said:

Wouldn't Tiki be a good example to study Divine Dragon power? Regardless of whether or not sbe uses full power, every manakete she fought would typically go down in one round if not one hit die to her divine status.

That's actually a fair point. Isn't Tiki supposed to be capable of ending the world if she wants?

EDIT:
 

Anankos is definitely the strongest dragon we've seen, purely because it seems like he can do literally anything.

It's not so much a "Loptyr was the strongest dragon" it was more "Loptyr as an Earth Dragon seems more impressive than Grima if Grima is supposed to be EVERY OTHER Earth Dragon".

Isn't he supposed to be every Earth Dragon + a bit of Divine Dragon for good measure?

Edited April 4, 2017 by Mortarion

[TheWerdna]

5 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure he lost his body because of the blood-pact he did with Galle, but idk.

Yep. Lopytr lost his body because of the bloodpact. Basically he used the bloodpact as a work around for the whole Degradation vs Become a Manakete problem. With it he could avoid degradation AND keep his full power, as the cost of sacrificing his physical form. 

[John_of_Valentia]

4 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

That's actually a fair point. Isn't Tiki supposed to be capable of ending the world if she wants?

EDIT:
 

Isn't he supposed to be every Earth Dragon + a bit of Divine Dragon for good measure?

If anything, Anankos is like a water dragon.

[Slumber]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

No, the timeline states war started 260~ years after they began to degenerate, not during the whole degeneration process, and it was mostly since the mindless Earth Dragons were slaughtering mankind, prompting Naga to do something about it. The opening of Genealogy doesn't mention events in Archanea, best I remember. No, it was because they opted to not become Manaketes. Degeneration in dragons happened because of their own power, hence the options were kept thier power in their bodies and degenerate, or store it elsewhere (dragonstones), and assume a form that doesn't use much energy (humans). Earth Dragons refused, mostly out of pride or something, except for Prince Medeus.

I meant Jugdral when I said Archanea.

For some reason, I thought the opening specified a time prior to Jugdral when all this shit started. Apparently it's just "A long time ago".

Edited April 4, 2017 by Slumber