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3 minutes ago, Thane said:

And then we come back to the fact that she's just a poorly written character who was most likely inserted into Alm's party to balance out all that testosterone. As AzureSen pointed out, you're reading way, way too much into this, and it's frankly a bit silly.

And again, that is irrelevant as being poorly written doesn't deter from people having the right to feel what they feel. Yes, she is poorly written. I've said that multiple times now. Maybe it's a case of over analysing on my part, but it could be a case of simplification on your behalf. 

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Just now, SlipperySlippy said:

And again, that is irrelevant as being poorly written doesn't deter from people having the right to feel what they feel. Yes, she is poorly written. I've said that multiple times now. Maybe it's a case of over analysing on my part, but it could be a case of simplification on your behalf. 

No. It is most certainly not irrelevant because she's a bloody fictional character; how well she's written is everything

I can't simplify things further because Faye has nothing to analyze. You seem hell-bent on trying to have a poorly written character declared officially depressed. I don't know why, and I don't know where on earth you got that idea from, but there can be no question about whether or not you're overanalyzing it.

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Just now, Thane said:

No. It is most certainly not irrelevant because she's a bloody fictional character; how well she's written is everything

I can't simplify things further because Faye has nothing to analyze. You seem hell-bent on trying to have a poorly written character declared officially depressed. I don't know why, and I don't know where on earth you got that idea from, but there can be no question about whether or not you're overanalyzing it.

I explained my reasoning quite well. Depression is a real life mood disorder, so it's definitely not everything in relation to this discussion. 

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Just now, SlipperySlippy said:

I explained my reasoning quite well. Depression is a real life mood disorder, so it's definitely not everything in relation to this discussion. 

It's a real life mood disorder which you're trying to apply to a character who has almost nothing to go on, which makes you come across as insensitive and trivializing of a very real issue. I suggest you stop doing that.

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Just now, Thane said:

It's a real life mood disorder which you're trying to apply to a character who has almost nothing to go on, which makes you come across as insensitive and trivializing of a very real issue. I suggest you stop doing that.

Please stop trying to play emotional cards, I am definitely not trivializing any real issues. Please don't make unfound allegations on an issue I have extensively researched. I've been choosing my words very carefully because it's a sensitive issue. There is absolutely nothing wrong with speculating Faye has depression based on her ending as her ending is highly suggestive of that. I have discussed that, of which you quoted me in the first place and labelled the discussion as an 'overanalysis'. I really don't understand why you've been quoting me in the first place when you have yet to bring any discussion to the table?

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Just now, SlipperySlippy said:

I really don't understand why you've been quoting me in the first place when you have yet to bring any discussion to the table?

That's funny, that's how I view your posts.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Just now, Thane said:

That's funny, that's how I view your posts.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I have definitely been bringing discussion in each of my posts and even made a clear, concise argument that:

#1. Explains the potential for Faye having developed depression due to Alm leaving her.

#2. Explain that you and other people should not invalidate a characters feelings (whether depressed or not).

At this point, it's not even agreeing to disagree. I never disagreed with your points with Faye being a badly written character, however you don't provide any comprehension to why that relates to the topic at hand (of which, you had to ask what the point of my posts were, despite being relatively clear). I explained that Faye's emotions should not be invalidated because of any poor writing associated with her character, of which you still failed to contribute any meaningful discussion. The options were to either argue that Faye's ending doesn't indicate she has depressions because of reasons or explain how the poor writing of how her character was handled does invalidate her feelings of sadness or loneliness, because of reasons

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I personally like Faye quite a bit. I find her obsession with Alm to be very amusing. I also like that she got a sad ending because I didn't expect that at all. Based on her design you would expect her to be sweet but instead she's kind of a jerk, which is a pleasant surprise. She could of definitely been better written but I don't mind what we got. 

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  • 2 months later...

There are sad endings in a game about a war 0/10

Of course there's going to be sad endings they're there to show the trauma of what everyone went through and that real life doesn't always have a happy ending with everyone skipping off into the sunset. It's a harsh and cruel world and even if you achieve your goal that doesn't fix everything.

As with Faye's ending I took it as more of a metaphorical ending showing that you just have to move on sometimes and not giving the player a way of really changing this just ensured that they could understand that sometimes things don't go your way and that's just something you'll have to deal with.

ChibiToastExplosion made a really good point about how limiting the endings and keeping them similar to the original is because these characters are a certain way and you can't just pull a sudden 180 on how a character is and have them change into a completely different character in the end because that's just bad writing and destroys the characters because they were written a specific way but we can just change that.

As for a lot of the characters endings being the same e.g. just joining the new army it's also done for a reason, not because of laziness, it's almost as if people who come out of a traumatic event that they were in for a long time don't know what to do with their lives and can, in many cases do anything they can to go back to it because for the time it was their life and having it taken away so suddenly destroys them.

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Looks like most of this is talking about Faye, but she's honestly small beans compared to the beef I have with a... certain other character. Spoilers for 1/11 and 3/12 ahead, beware:

Spoiler

I played Shadow Dragon in 2012, just before Awakening released. Camus looked like a recruitable character, so I looked up his wiki page and... lo and behold, he is. In Gaiden. Where her runs off with some Nyna recolor and leaves the poor girl with no family, a loveless, abusive marriage, and eventually, no kingdom or friends in Marth's company- Heck, he saved her life, then just runs off to be with his sweet knockoff & basically leaves her all alone with the trauma of being kidnapped & brainwashed on top of everything else!

The whole ordeal just left a bad taste in my mouth. That said, I knew I didn't have the full story from one game, so at that point it was just a vague dislike.

Hoo boy, playing New Mystery & Echoes did NOTHING to improve my opinion of Tatiana. (Well, except she has a completely awesome design and is honestly my best healer on either route. But I'm talking about her personality & role in the story here.)

Her personalty and endings, for her role in the love triangle, are utterly insulting. She has no tragedy in her past- she was perfectly happy before Zeke showed up. Had he not shown up, she would have lived her life peacefully- she most likely wouldn't have ever been kidnapped, and would have eventually married her "old friend" from her bad ending.

And that is by far the worst part- if Zeke dies? She cuts off her her hair & marries some other dude. And it's not like Faye at all- he's not sloppy seconds, she doesn't mourn for her lost love her entire life! Nope, she's just as happy without him, she has a little mourning period is all.

Tatiana is an incredibly spoiled character- not as in, that being a character trait of hers, but it is beyond obvious that she's an author's pet (something that I've seen bothers a lot of people in the fandom about Azura and especially Corrin. I tend to think the cool bits outweigh the stupid ones with those two, but honestly, this chick is giving me some insight into why some people find their writing so offensive.) Camus/Zeke/Sirus/Xander version 0.5's decision to choose Tatiana over Nyna is a GRAVE one. He's consciously choosing to completely screw over Nyna to give Tatiana her happy ending, and she does nothing to honor that. She's flippant, cheery, and not a serious character at all. Not to say she's... unlikable, oh, she's funny and sweet, but there's nothing about her that screams "My happiness with this One Particular Character is totally worth another dying lonely, abandoned and alone!"

That said... if Zeke had two endings in Gaiden, the second isn't on either wiki. But he certainly gets one in Echoes! And, well... I like it. It implies that he goes and saves Nyna in the second war as he normally does, but doesn't return to Valentia. Even Sirus and Nyna's endings could imply that they ran off together if not for that one line of dialogue in the last chapter. Too bad there's not way to transfer over save data between 11, 12 and 15 to get different endings... or maybe just letting us decide the pairings like in later games... or a non Japanese version of 12... I'd probably sell my left leg for any of the above. Heck, Camus and Nyna aren't even my favorite ship from Archenea!

 

I'm probably too chicken to actually kill one of, if not the best Saint in the game over a bad ship, but let's just say I know which of Zeke's endings is my personal headcanon.

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1 hour ago, Leopard Gal said:

Looks like most of this is talking about Faye, but she's honestly small beans compared to the beef I have with a... certain other character. Spoilers for 1/11 and 3/12 ahead, beware:

  Hide contents

I played Shadow Dragon in 2012, just before Awakening released. Camus looked like a recruitable character, so I looked up his wiki page and... lo and behold, he is. In Gaiden. Where her runs off with some Nyna recolor and leaves the poor girl with no family, a loveless, abusive marriage, and eventually, no kingdom or friends in Marth's company- Heck, he saved her life, then just runs off to be with his sweet knockoff & basically leaves her all alone with the trauma of being kidnapped & brainwashed on top of everything else!

The whole ordeal just left a bad taste in my mouth. That said, I knew I didn't have the full story from one game, so at that point it was just a vague dislike.

Hoo boy, playing New Mystery & Echoes did NOTHING to improve my opinion of Tatiana. (Well, except she has a completely awesome design and is honestly my best healer on either route. But I'm talking about her personality & role in the story here.)

Her personalty and endings, for her role in the love triangle, are utterly insulting. She has no tragedy in her past- she was perfectly happy before Zeke showed up. Had he not shown up, she would have lived her life peacefully- she most likely wouldn't have ever been kidnapped, and would have eventually married her "old friend" from her bad ending.

And that is by far the worst part- if Zeke dies? She cuts off her her hair & marries some other dude. And it's not like Faye at all- he's not sloppy seconds, she doesn't mourn for her lost love her entire life! Nope, she's just as happy without him, she has a little mourning period is all.

Tatiana is an incredibly spoiled character- not as in, that being a character trait of hers, but it is beyond obvious that she's an author's pet (something that I've seen bothers a lot of people in the fandom about Azura and especially Corrin. I tend to think the cool bits outweigh the stupid ones with those two, but honestly, this chick is giving me some insight into why some people find their writing so offensive.) Camus/Zeke/Sirus/Xander version 0.5's decision to choose Tatiana over Nyna is a GRAVE one. He's consciously choosing to completely screw over Nyna to give Tatiana her happy ending, and she does nothing to honor that. She's flippant, cheery, and not a serious character at all. Not to say she's... unlikable, oh, she's funny and sweet, but there's nothing about her that screams "My happiness with this One Particular Character is totally worth another dying lonely, abandoned and alone!"

That said... if Zeke had two endings in Gaiden, the second isn't on either wiki. But he certainly gets one in Echoes! And, well... I like it. It implies that he goes and saves Nyna in the second war as he normally does, but doesn't return to Valentia. Even Sirus and Nyna's endings could imply that they ran off together if not for that one line of dialogue in the last chapter. Too bad there's not way to transfer over save data between 11, 12 and 15 to get different endings... or maybe just letting us decide the pairings like in later games... or a non Japanese version of 12... I'd probably sell my left leg for any of the above. Heck, Camus and Nyna aren't even my favorite ship from Archenea!

 

I'm probably too chicken to actually kill one of, if not the best Saint in the game over a bad ship, but let's just say I know which of Zeke's endings is my personal headcanon.

Wasn't Nyna's disastrous love life caused by Artemis' curse? If that was the case, then Camus' decision to choose Tatiana over her could have probably been influenced by that.

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54 minutes ago, Korath88 said:

Wasn't Nyna's disastrous love life caused by Artemis' curse? If that was the case, then Camus' decision to choose Tatiana over her could have probably been influenced by that.

Almost certainly! Thanks for reminding me of this, it's been over a year since I last played SD. (So sorry about how long and rambly this got, I'm simultaneously passionate abut this character and haven't slept in over 24 hours.)

Spoiler

This actually explains a bit of Zeke's character that I'd sort of dismissed- I don't have the exact quote, but he has a line (I think in a base conversation?) somewhat like: "Yes, I lost my memory... all but one beautiful memory. Though I cannot speak about it." And the Memory Prism scene makes it clear it's a memory of Nyna (though he has no context for it at this point.)

Throughout Zeke and Tatiana's supports, it becomes more clear that yes, Zeke is still in love with Nyna. It's not a matter of him forgetting Nyna completely (which I'm guessing it was in Gaiden, because none of the supports or memories were in it to my knowledge, though I've never played it)- He's always remembered her and his feelings for her to some slight extent, so he's blatantly choosing Tatiana over her.

(I'm going to be talking a bit about the Camus archetype here more than strictly Zeke himself- I don't know a whole lot about this game's development team, but I imagine it's more likely that the people who worked on the new scenes were people who worked on newer titles like Fates than the original writers of the first three games- some bits of the archetype that weren't originally part of Zeke's character have likely seeped into the writing, intentionally or no.)

From my understanding of his (and other Camus type characters in the series) character, just... choosing to trust some random person, whether she saved his life or not, so completely when he already had some loyalty to another is massively OoC for anyone of his archetype- heck, they're practically built being on being unwavering loyal usually to the point of getting themselves killed. That is, with one major exception.

When magic comes into play. They can deal with other people, but when magic hits the one they're loyal to, they get hit hard with recoil. (Xander is obviously the one this applies to the most, but I think Selena- the FE8 one, not the FE14 one- is another good example.) Zeke has an odd... extremely affectionate relationship to someone he doesn't entirely trust (not enough to tell her about his recovering memory at least- whether it's to protect her or not, he ends up keeping secrets and lying to her which ultimately it not the sign of a healthy relationship. It either means that he can't trust her with all of himself, or she can't be trusted with all of him. It's bad either way.) and isn't the only one in his heart (Again, Camus archetypes see the world in black and white- #1, The One That was there First- The One I Serve, and #2 The Ones That I Fight. #1 can be a country, a ruler, a family- whatever it is, if a loved one happens to deviate from #1, they get shoved right into #2, no questions asked. Camus types don't get caught in a odd halfway point like this often... heck, I haven't played much of 4 and none of 5, but out of the rest of the series I can't think of any other times.) I was associating that with the Guilt/Justice part of his character- "She saved me, therefore I owe her. She loves me, therefore I owe her my love-" but being manipulated by Artemis' curse makes much more sense with the given context of the trilogy.

I think Zeke's "bad" ending even makes it a bit... poetic? This "Defying Fate" so that Sirus and Nyna can be together isn't defying the curse at all- the curse to be "the end of war, the end of love" just claims Tatiana instead, just like if Caeda dies in SD.

 

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6 hours ago, Leopard Gal said:

Looks like most of this is talking about Faye, but she's honestly small beans compared to the beef I have with a... certain other character. Spoilers for 1/11 and 3/12 ahead, beware:

  Reveal hidden contents

I played Shadow Dragon in 2012, just before Awakening released. Camus looked like a recruitable character, so I looked up his wiki page and... lo and behold, he is. In Gaiden. Where her runs off with some Nyna recolor and leaves the poor girl with no family, a loveless, abusive marriage, and eventually, no kingdom or friends in Marth's company- Heck, he saved her life, then just runs off to be with his sweet knockoff & basically leaves her all alone with the trauma of being kidnapped & brainwashed on top of everything else!

The whole ordeal just left a bad taste in my mouth. That said, I knew I didn't have the full story from one game, so at that point it was just a vague dislike.

Hoo boy, playing New Mystery & Echoes did NOTHING to improve my opinion of Tatiana. (Well, except she has a completely awesome design and is honestly my best healer on either route. But I'm talking about her personality & role in the story here.)

Her personalty and endings, for her role in the love triangle, are utterly insulting. She has no tragedy in her past- she was perfectly happy before Zeke showed up. Had he not shown up, she would have lived her life peacefully- she most likely wouldn't have ever been kidnapped, and would have eventually married her "old friend" from her bad ending.

And that is by far the worst part- if Zeke dies? She cuts off her her hair & marries some other dude. And it's not like Faye at all- he's not sloppy seconds, she doesn't mourn for her lost love her entire life! Nope, she's just as happy without him, she has a little mourning period is all.

Tatiana is an incredibly spoiled character- not as in, that being a character trait of hers, but it is beyond obvious that she's an author's pet (something that I've seen bothers a lot of people in the fandom about Azura and especially Corrin. I tend to think the cool bits outweigh the stupid ones with those two, but honestly, this chick is giving me some insight into why some people find their writing so offensive.) Camus/Zeke/Sirus/Xander version 0.5's decision to choose Tatiana over Nyna is a GRAVE one. He's consciously choosing to completely screw over Nyna to give Tatiana her happy ending, and she does nothing to honor that. She's flippant, cheery, and not a serious character at all. Not to say she's... unlikable, oh, she's funny and sweet, but there's nothing about her that screams "My happiness with this One Particular Character is totally worth another dying lonely, abandoned and alone!"

That said... if Zeke had two endings in Gaiden, the second isn't on either wiki. But he certainly gets one in Echoes! And, well... I like it. It implies that he goes and saves Nyna in the second war as he normally does, but doesn't return to Valentia. Even Sirus and Nyna's endings could imply that they ran off together if not for that one line of dialogue in the last chapter. Too bad there's not way to transfer over save data between 11, 12 and 15 to get different endings... or maybe just letting us decide the pairings like in later games... or a non Japanese version of 12... I'd probably sell my left leg for any of the above. Heck, Camus and Nyna aren't even my favorite ship from Archenea!

 

I'm probably too chicken to actually kill one of, if not the best Saint in the game over a bad ship, but let's just say I know which of Zeke's endings is my personal headcanon.

alright so I love nyna a lot she's one of my favorite characters 

but the thing is, regardless of how good or healthy of a relationship camus and tatiana's is, nyna and camus' relationship was an extremely unhealthy one for nyna and i think that they absolutely should not have ended up together

while shadow dragon added a lot of characterization for nyna, most of her backstory comes from the archanea saga chapters, and in the first one, you can see her at her absolute lowest. it's essentially the same situation that marth's in at the beginning of shadow dragon, her family's dead, she's lost her kingdom, and she's forced to leave on her own.  the difference is, nyna doesn't just feel bad for leaving her family behind, she genuinely sees no point in living anymore for a moment

Spoiler

Nyna: 
If it has come to this, then... 

Boah: 
Princess, what are you doing!? Please stay your hand! 

Nyna: 
Bishop, don't stop me! Now that Midia has failed, I have no desire to live...

it's right then that she meets camus, who she's initially really angry at, but he starts to explain to her how much her life does matter to her kingdom, and how awful of a king her father was. it's because of his words that she realizes why she has to keep living, and she says that one day, she'll take back archanea from the empire.  again, it parallels the prologue of shadow dragon, with jagen and marth. this might be a translation thing, but they even both use the same word, "assuredly".

now this might seem like a good start but in the other chapter involving them, taking place 2 years later, nyna's had no one but camus to rely on, and things have clearly not been going well for her.

when camus chooses to disobey medeus and take her to aurelis, they have this exchange

Spoiler

Nyna: 
Then, you have made your decision? Camus, if you're going to abandon your country, then I...!

Camus: 
Nyna, you're mistaken. I don't fear Dolhr or Medeus, but the Kingdom of Grust means everything to me. I cannot betray it.

Nyna: 
But, then... Why are you...? If you help me, you'll be a criminal. And yet, you say you'll remain in Grust? They'll kill you!

Camus: 
I remember telling you, Princess. That you could have my life anytime. Well, that time has come.

Nyna: 
Camus...! I refuse! I don't want to be saved if you are sacrificed in exchange!

Camus: 
Haha, you're still a child, Nyna. It reminds me of when we first met, two years ago. If I recall correctly... You said you would command the Archanean League's army to topple Dolhr. And for that purpose, you have worked very hard in these two years. The people call you the white rose of Archanea. Neat and trim on the outside; you hide such passion and enthusiasm. You give courage to all who come in contact with you. Opportunities appear as we create them. And should one present itself, the people will surely unite and oppose Dolhr, no? Or do you intend to ruin everything you've worked for? All for a fleeting fancy? Nyna, were you always this weak?

Nyna: 
...Camus... Very well. I shall do as you say. However, let me make this clear: my love for you means everything to me! It isn't some "fleeting fancy". You've always been on my mind...! True, I said I hated you once. But it was a lie; I was just fooling myself... It was love at first sight! I'm not strong at all... I need you by my side...! It was because you were here... that I had anything to live for...!

Camus: 
...Princess. That's enough. I get it...
 

 even though she seems to have grown a lot throughout that time, and has been continuing to work towards her goal of stopping dolhr, the years that have passed have clearly not been kind to her, and camus seems to once again be the only thing that's keeping her alive.  although i'm sure they were very much in love, nyna's attachment to camus definitely became something unhealthy, and I think it was necessary for her to lose him to gain the strength to eventually help marth and his army get archanea back. and when they come back to the palace, nyna shows that she's learned a lot about what really does matter, and that she can't mourn forever.  

Spoiler

Nyna:
“…When the palace fell, many, many good Akaneians were killed. The royal family…My family were…Their bodies were hung before the gates as an example. I cannot unpaint that vivid picture, of my parents grotesquely changed…I feel as though I should cry, Marth; or scream. But no tears come, and I cannot chase away the sadness and rage… …I cannot change the past. I can only shape the future. Lead the way, Marth. I am ready. Take me home.”

and even though she's still, naturally, very sad if camus dies, if he lives, she does accept that they'll never be together, and hopes only that he lives.

Spoiler

Nyna:
“I am told Camus has not been found. Perhaps he still lives. I know how selfish it is to wish it. But if he cannot be with me, then I must cling to the hope his life has not been cut short. It is all I have left.”

nyna doesn't really talk much after that until the end of the game, but there, whether or not caeda's still alive, you can see that she's learned a lot after all that's happened to her, although you can particularly see that in the ending where caeda's dead

Spoiler

Nyna:
“Marth, do not blame yourself. …Remember Anri and Artemis. We are their descendants; perhaps we were always meant to share their curse as well as their blood. And… perhaps only the curse has exacted its price could our battle with the Shadow Dragon be won. This peace we have made… We must cherish it, Marth. We have both paid so dearly for it. Let us work together to ensure none must endure a tragedy like our again.”

she's accepted that they both had to lose their loves to win in the end.  although she was sad to lose camus, she knows that their own happiness isn't as important as that of their whole kingdom, and you can see that again when nyna gets married to hardin despite not truly being in love with him.  she learns to put aside her own happiness for the sake of archanea, and while it was thanks to him that she was able to get her kingdom back, I don't think her relationship with camus was one that had any chance to end well, even if they could've reunited with each other.

she still does get totally screwed over in fe3, and i'm not happy with that, especially since they had the chance to change that in fe12 (they did make a lot of changes to the endings in echoes, so I do think they could've done that for fe12 too), but I don't think it was camus' fault, at least not entirely (he definitely could've done more under his whole "sirius" persona than just cryptically apologize to her). so as much as I love nyna and wish she got a better ending, I don't think that it was wrong of camus to return to tatiana. they were definitely in love with each other, and both of them did a lot for each other. while camus might've still cared for nyna, the way he mentions his one memory of her shows that he loves tatiana to the point that he doesn't care about what he might've felt in the past.

so basically I don't really blame camus for going back to tatiana since even if she could've gotten over him for someone else, I do think she deserved to be with him, but I do blame him for wasting his last chance to talk to nyna and just leaving her without any kind of explanation or anything. i'm sure if he at least explained a little of what happened to him, nyna could've accepted losing him, but instead he just leaves and we get nyna's awful ending where she presumably wastes her life trying to find him

Edited by unique
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2 hours ago, unique said:

she still does get totally screwed over in fe3, and i'm not happy with that, especially since they had the chance to change that in fe12 (they did make a lot of changes to the endings in echoes, so I do think they could've done that for fe12 too), but I don't think it was camus' fault, at least not entirely (he definitely could've done more under his whole "sirius" persona than just cryptically apologize to her). so as much as I love nyna and wish she got a better ending, I don't think that it was wrong of camus to return to tatiana.

You do bring up some very good points- I haven't gotten around to playing the Archenea Saga chapters yet (Just got a computer with enough brains to run a DS emulator a little while ago) and her attachment to him does seem... borderline obsessive.

I can see that I seem to be coming off here as a "Nyna/Camus forever!"  type, but I'm blaming that on being awake for... gods, almost 30 hours now. I might need to crash after this.

The message I'm trying to say is "For the love of all that is holy, IntSys, give Nyna her damn (at least somewhat) happy ending already!"

Spoiler

I mean good grief- I can't think of ANY character that has gone though more BS and gotten a worse ending in the series. Lost her family, lost her lover, willingly cursed herself (and potentially her first true friend since her parent's murder), willingly got into a loveless marriage to save said friend, said marriage turned abusive, she's then kidnapped, brainwashed- oh, her lover miraculously came back to life to save her! And then he lies to her face, takes off and mumbles an apology on the way out. And then she gives up her kingdom, because- She was too traumatized to continue to rule? She thought her like, one friend in this world would do a better job? She knew that he'd be a stronger political leader and not surrendering her title would lead to unrest? Take your pick of a

nswers, none of them are nice.

And then, after ALL THAT- she gets that terrible ending.

I mean, I've got quite a few favorites that deserved better in their endings (Gangrel comes to mind, who, in a charming, witty way, swears he'll become a better man and seems to mean it by his A support but just dies at the end unless you marry him. And I wouldn't put Sonya or Abel in my list of all time favorites but they certainly deserved better as well,) but most of them either kinda have it coming, the ending was more bittersweet, or- heck, they had a least a little happiness for a while in their lives!

I think this is why Tatiana really rubs me the wrong way- she's not someone meant to be considered a completely separate character from Nyna- well, in Echoes maybe, but not originally. She's literally a recolor. She's a foil to Nyna in a way- and not what I'd call a good one.

Tatiana grew up poor, but happy, with her family of fellow clergy- which she eventually left, on her own terms.

Nyna grew up as a princess- I don't think we know much of what her family was like, but she got to see them murdered and hung as a display.

Camus just gets dumped on them one day, and sweeps them off their feet. They join an army. They lose Camus- Tatiana gets him back, Nyna gets FE3 BS.

This is IntSys' way of having their cake and eating it too. They get to torture this poor character until she's broken pretty much beyond repair, but it doesn't really matter, we've got this other Nyna over here that doesn't have all those pesky gloomy trauma issues, is playable for more of the game and has a far more cheery personality! You don't need to feel bad about how this love triangle turned out- Nyna 2.0 is clearly the better choice! So all of Camus' fans get to feel happy he got his happy ending with the right girl- and all of this plot-related abuse that gets piled onto Nyna is only bittersweet.

If I have to give Echoes credit for anything(And I give it lots of credit it's a great game), it's for trying their damn best to fix this train wreck of a love triangle. SoV!Tatiana is a legitimately enjoyable character! She's likable but not flawless, has a great design and great stats.

But... all of this really can't undo the damage she's done to Nyna's character in 3 and 12 just by existing. Like you said, what Camus and Nyna probably need is not to ride off into the sunset- what they need to do it sit down and have a real, adult conversation and move of from there- whether that be together as a healthier dynamic overall or apart. But we don't get that at all- not if Tatiana lives. Zeke's bad ending hints that the dynamic might change- maybe they do finally get that closure, albeit offscreen. Or maybe it doesn't- maybe Zeke's grief and Nyna's PTSD makes for a largely dysfunctional couple. But I- and I know full well I only speak for myself here- would rather see even "Tatiana lived a short but happy life, and died alongside the man she loved. He never fully recovered, neither did Nyna, but they helped each other to cope, though maybe not in the best ways" a thousand times over "Zeke and Tatiana lived happily ever after :) :) :) Nyna died alone in a ditch. But be happy for Zeke and Tatiana!"

IDK. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the real sin of Tatiana is that, with the way she was added to Gaiden originally, she ended up flattening both Nyna and Sirus' characters in FE3 in a really bad way. It's no flaw of the character herself, especially not her Echoes version that is clearly not a Nyna clone in any way, but randomly making the interesting dynamic between the two into an incredibly lopsided love triangle was a really, really bad writing choice at the time, especially with the way FE3 ended.

 

There is one thing I would disagree with you on:

2 hours ago, unique said:

the way he mentions his one memory of her shows that he loves tatiana to the point that he doesn't care about what he might've felt in the past.

He clearly does care- if he didn't care, he wouldn't have returned to Archenea. The fact that he decides to move on from Nyna and live happily with Tatiana in the end really doesn't matter at this point- during the course of Echoes story, he is extremely conflicted on his feelings. And that leads into the trust issues between the two- Tatiana is worried he'll leave her if his memories return, and he's likely feeling the exact same thing. There's this other woman he still loves- He has no idea who she is, if she's still alive, or even what their relationship was ultimately like. We, as an audience know his relationship with Tatiana is healthier and he'll choose her in the end- he doesn't. That's probably my favorite part of his character in Echoes, honestly. When he's assuring Tatiana he'll never leave her, he's mostly assuring himself. We know that if she loses him, she will get better. If he loses his "last light," he probably won't. It's clear he knows that from that quote- as much as he knows anything, with that big gaping question mark of his feelings for Nyna hanging over his head.

This dynamic right here is why Navarre, Camus, and Xander (who is, honestly, AU!Camus. The only major personality differences are due to the quality of Fates writing dropping pretty severely in some places- I still love the game to bits, but it does have its moments. Lon'qu is basically AU!Navarre as well, but eh, I never liked him as much. Maybe the hair, maybe the bad stat rolls early game) are three of my favorite characters. They all have this horrible, crippling weight of their past laying on them- but while Navarre chooses to isolate himself completely, never letting anyone dare add to that burden, Camus and Xander do the opposite and choose to stand as a pillar for those they care about, piling more and more onto themselves for the sake of others fully knowing they will eventually break. It's a character trait you don't see often in fiction outside FE.

Edited by Leopard Gal
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