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Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)


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9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Echoes having that Falchion doesn't mean Naga used it during the war, and its even unlikely she did, because that Falchion was Duma's at that point. Also, there was never any proof that Naga fought with Falchion. All that was confirmed that Naga forged it to give HUMANS a chance to fight dragons. By no means does it mean that she ever used it, because she would never had needed to. 

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There was a good 400 years between when Naga made Falchion and when she left it and the Fire Emblem for humans to use. In that time frame I think it's pretty clear Naga used both herself.

Now, perhaps she always intended them for human use long term, but at least at the end of the war she used them. Which makes sense when considering that becoming a manakete also means sealing away a lot of their power. So creating weapons that said power could be transferred to would be the best way for the Divine Dragons to beat the Earth Dragons while not risking degradation itself.

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10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But the thing that's been repeatedly given through statements is that Naga made Falchion solely for the humans, not for her. She had her own powers and abilities and had no need to use Falchion. Also, while its true that she technically COULD take her manakete form and fight using Falchion, its actually been shown that Manaketes are very weak and frail when in their human form, because so much power was sealed into their dragonstone that without it, they are actually more prone to damage than humans. Naga taking the entire Earth Dragon Tribe with the other Divine Dragons while she was in manakete form is actually more dangerous.[/quote]

Gotoh and Xane can fight without using their dragonstone, Naga could well do the same.

Of course, unless you mean to say that Forseti saying that they need Naga's power to stop Loptyr because Loptyr is so ridiculously strong, then you're saying that supports the idea that Loptyr is an Earth Dragon with great strength to rival Naga. That would be a good call. Except the only other dragon remotely possible to be a Divine Dragon was Forseti, and he's stated to be the youngest, which would naturally mean he's the weaker of them. So that would mean that Loptyr was facing 11 dragons that were all weaker than him, and it was only Naga that posed a challenge, though it wasn't that much of a challenge given that Loptyr showed a lot of desperation through Julius to have Julia killed, since he knew that if she got Naga's tome, he was done for.

Bolded: That is my view, are you arguing against that? If not, then I misinterpreted what you were saying before.

Italic: Why only Forseti? If anything, he's among the most likely to not be Divine, since wind and ice are connected to each other.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

But the thing that's been repeatedly given through statements is that Naga made Falchion solely for the humans, not for her. She had her own powers and abilities and had no need to use Falchion. Also, while its true that she technically COULD take her manakete form and fight using Falchion, its actually been shown that Manaketes are very weak and frail when in their human form, because so much power was sealed into their dragonstone that without it, they are actually more prone to damage than humans. Naga taking the entire Earth Dragon Tribe with the other Divine Dragons while she was in manakete form is actually more dangerous.

Also, that... doesn't actually contradict what I said, though. I said that Loptyr is able to invoke ALL his powers as an Earth Dragon because his tome contained all his malevolence and hatred towards humanity, that his will actually controls the humans that hold his bloodline. Naga knew that implanting her will into her tome would do the same, and its stated that that worried her. But from what we've seen, not only does the Book of Naga eventually weaken as time goes on by, her will never overwrites those that use her tome in the end. Influenced, sure. But not controlled in the same way Loptyr does. 

In that case, it's actually clear that Naga didn't put all her will and power into it, possibly out of fear of it taking over the person. I could be wrong, and she could still have encased her power without placing so much of her will, but given how its being stated about magic, it seems that the power of the will within the tome has an influence in the power of the magic itself. 

Forseti probably did put more of his will into is tome, because he loved humans even deeper than Naga did, mostly because he was very young as a dragon. And we saw how it worked to the point that his tome made his will take over Lewyn in the end, but only because Lewyn already died at that point, hence why Forseti could possess him as he revived him. 

Back to Loptyr, we have to keep in mind that he's an Earth Dragons, so its obvious that his power would be incredibly high, as he would be stronger than any other dragon tribe that wasn't Earth or Divine. Since its more accepted that the 11 Dragons Naga brought comprised of a mix of all the Dragon Tribes minus the Earth Dragon Tribe, then any other tribe that aren't Divine Dragons wouldn't be much of a match. 

Of course, unless you mean to say that Forseti saying that they need Naga's power to stop Loptyr because Loptyr is so ridiculously strong, then you're saying that supports the idea that Loptyr is an Earth Dragon with great strength to rival Naga. That would be a good call. Except the only other dragon remotely possible to be a Divine Dragon was Forseti, and he's stated to be the youngest, which would naturally mean he's the weaker of them. So that would mean that Loptyr was facing 11 dragons that were all weaker than him, and it was only Naga that posed a challenge, though it wasn't that much of a challenge given that Loptyr showed a lot of desperation through Julius to have Julia killed, since he knew that if she got Naga's tome, he was done for.

But what if Naga didn't have a choice. Remember, degradation was a thing, which was caused by dragons being so powerful. The only way to avoid it was to seal away said power and become manaketes. So how would a divine dragon who as to fight an earth dragon who can use their  full power while they themselves can't last they risk degradation? They make weapons filled with their power, which can be wielded without the risk. Its basically a loophole they can exploit.

Edited by TheWerdna
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7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Gotoh and Xane can fight without using their dragonstone, Naga could well do the same.

Yes, but they use magic. And Xane can only mimic others, but his own strengths are very frail and can easily be killed. 

7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

That is my view, are you arguing against that? If not, then I misinterpreted what you were saying before.

Not completely. 

7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Why only Forseti? If anything, he's among the most likely to not be Divine, since wind and ice are connected to each other.

That's what you theorized, isn't it? Wind and Ice aren't necessarily the same. Its been more theorized that Forseti is a Divine Dragon, but there hasn't been a strong enough mention to use. 

7 hours ago, TheWerdna said:

But what if Naga didn't have a choice. Remember, degradation was a thing, which was caused by dragons being so powerful. The only way to avoid it was to seal away said power and become manaketes. So how would a divine dragon who as to fight an earth dragon who can use their  full power while they themselves can't last they risk degradation? They make weapons filled with their power, which can be wielded without the risk. Its basically a loophole they can exploit.

But we've been told that the Divine Dragons exhausted all their power in the war and could no longer take dragon form. Also, it was after the war I believe that Xane and Gotoh abandoned their dragonstones. In which case, they like used their powers as dragons still just for the purpose of that war. Taking human form would avoid the degeneration, but against the feral Earth Dragons, it isn't something that's possible to take, even with Falchion in hand. Its the same reason why Gotoh said that they had to stop the seal from being broken to Marth, or else the Earth Dragons WOULD destroy all of humanity. True, Marth didn't have Falchion at the time, but 1 sword against an army of dragons does not equal salvation, as they can very well be killed by the numbers. 

Its unlikely that Naga could have taken human form and fight an entire war through it, even if she was using Falchion. 

Argh, all this talk about Naga is getting confusing. I wish we'd have a game that actually talked about Naga's life. Why can't we have that? For once, let's make NAGA be the main character of her Fire Emblem game, the Fire Emblem game that predates the actual Fire Emblem artifact. XD

But really, I'm starting to notice that there have been many retcons. Originally, Xane said that only him, Gotoh, Naga and Tiki survived the war with the Earth Dragons, the latter only cause she was an infant. And Medeus was the last Earth Dragon. Then we learn that Loptyr was an Earth Dragon and that Naga fought him as well after the war with the Earth Dragons. Then we learned that there are possibly other survivors as in New Mystery, Xane's mention of saying they were the only survivors was altered to indicate there could be other survivors. 

Then in Awakening, there's hints that Nowi could be a Divine Dragon as well, which could indicate that there are still some Divine Dragons out there (Unless we're expected to believe that Xane or Gotoh is her parent). And now in Echoes, we have more Divine Dragons, these ones likely never part of the war with the dragons. 

Anymore games that involve Naga or the Archanea verse, and there'll be more retcons. 

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27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

But we've been told that the Divine Dragons exhausted all their power in the war and could no longer take dragon form. Also, it was after the war I believe that Xane and Gotoh abandoned their dragonstones. In which case, they like used their powers as dragons still just for the purpose of that war. Taking human form would avoid the degeneration, but against the feral Earth Dragons, it isn't something that's possible to take, even with Falchion in hand. Its the same reason why Gotoh said that they had to stop the seal from being broken to Marth, or else the Earth Dragons WOULD destroy all of humanity. True, Marth didn't have Falchion at the time, but 1 sword against an army of dragons does not equal salvation, as they can very well be killed by the numbers. 

Its unlikely that Naga could have taken human form and fight an entire war through it, even if she was using Falchion. 

Argh, all this talk about Naga is getting confusing. I wish we'd have a game that actually talked about Naga's life. Why can't we have that? For once, let's make NAGA be the main character of her Fire Emblem game, the Fire Emblem game that predates the actual Fire Emblem artifact. XD

But really, I'm starting to notice that there have been many retcons. Originally, Xane said that only him, Gotoh, Naga and Tiki survived the war with the Earth Dragons, the latter only cause she was an infant. And Medeus was the last Earth Dragon. Then we learn that Loptyr was an Earth Dragon and that Naga fought him as well after the war with the Earth Dragons. Then we learned that there are possibly other survivors as in New Mystery, Xane's mention of saying they were the only survivors was altered to indicate there could be other survivors. 

Then in Awakening, there's hints that Nowi could be a Divine Dragon as well, which could indicate that there are still some Divine Dragons out there (Unless we're expected to believe that Xane or Gotoh is her parent). And now in Echoes, we have more Divine Dragons, these ones likely never part of the war with the dragons. 

Anymore games that involve Naga or the Archanea verse, and there'll be more retcons. 

But Naga made Falchion in the last few 100 years of the war, plus the Fire Emblem to seal the last few Earth Dragons. Sounds to me like they had probably at first used their own power sparingly, but when even that became too much a risk, Naga created Falchion and the Fire Emblem to end the war.

Again, how else would you explain Naga having both for a full 400 years before she enshrined them so humans could claim them in the future? 

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1 hour ago, TheWerdna said:

But Naga made Falchion in the last few 100 years of the war, plus the Fire Emblem to seal the last few Earth Dragons. Sounds to me like they had probably at first used their own power sparingly, but when even that became too much a risk, Naga created Falchion and the Fire Emblem to end the war.

Again, how else would you explain Naga having both for a full 400 years before she enshrined them so humans could claim them in the future? 

Actually, now I wanna ask something. Was this timeline all done all the way back in FE1/3? Where was this timeline? 

Now, going from there, how much was retconned by the time of FE11/12? 

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37 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, now I wanna ask something. Was this timeline all done all the way back in FE1/3? Where was this timeline? 

Now, going from there, how much was retconned by the time of FE11/12? 

I believe the timeline was constructed using an combination of quotes from FE1/3 and FE11/12. It, as far as I understand, is not an official thing, but rather a fanmade timeline constructed using every event we know of that we are given a timeframe of relative to an event in the game (aka, like a character says something took place 500 years before a given even, etc)

 

 

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1 minute ago, TheWerdna said:

I believe the timeline was constructed using an combination of quotes from FE1/3 and FE11/12. It, as far as I understand, is not an official thing, but rather a fanmade timeline constructed using every event we know of that we are given a timeframe of relative to an event in the game (aka, like a character says something took place 500 years before a given even, etc)

 

 

So... we only have second hand dialogue and no complete confirmation about what happened? Goddammit. 

But you know what, I think its really pointless at this point to assert theories after so much has been done. For now, might as well take each recent event in the verse as the canon and wait how new stuff comes in and retcons and changes things up. Cause that's definitely what's gonna happen. We're likely gonna have a full reinstallment of the Archanea or Jugdral series and there'll be new retcons and explanations just to tie everything together. 

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Just now, B.Leu said:

Golly, I can't wait for them to change things in an even more convulted and plot-holish way for FE4 when it's not needed as well ! :p

Actually, there are still a few things I want explained in FE4. Like for one thing what happened to Loptyr's body. Then about why Heim never thought about taking the Loptyr tome from Galle XVII after killing him, since he should know that the tome still housed Loptyr's will, so it should have been confined. Then explaining the fates of all the characters in Bellhalla rather than leaving it very vague. Then maybe explain exactly who Forseti is in story rather than rely on an interview. And for that matter, if Forseti possessed Lewyn by the 2nd half, what happened to the actual Forseti, like his actual body. 

Also, did Lewyn actually mention the war between the Divine and Earth Dragons to Seliph? No, probably not. Just the Miracle of Darna. 

And if we ever get a second remake of Shadow Dragon, maybe make it like the original Mystery of the Emblem, as Book 1 is Shadow Dragon and Book 2 is Mystery. And maybe adjust the role of Kris so he doesn't basically feel the center of the characters, cause he really hurt Marth's development as a character there, though I did enjoy the thing with Katarina and Kris. XP

And if they do remake it, at least explain more about the dragon war and maybe actually talk about Loptyr there. Original I can understand, but why never involve the Genealogy or Loptyr for the remake? Seemed like a good idea to mention it there, since we just explained the war with the earth dragons, then say Naga died, even though at least 200 years passed and Naga fought Loptyr, and then died after enshrining the Shield of Seals and Falchion. 

Of course, this makes me wonder if FE4 will possibly try to do something crazy like say that Robin's ancestor is actually Arvis through his illegitimate son Saias, and Grima is actually Loptyr. That'd be weird. 

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'The thing with Katarina and Kris' ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
The joy of taking things out of context. I got the feeling that Kris have been retconned as of late.

Eh... reminds me of that fanficish dream of Awakening being the story of Crusader weapons holder. Robin having Falaflamme, Chrom having Tirfing. It was pretty weird and went absolutely nowhere.

More into the discussion.... Well no one care all of that. It's the past of those games. A well and firmly established past with that. Changing or trying to tie things is just a disaster waiting to happens. Just like it was shown just now.
Lev was possessed by Hoselty's will after dying, and that's it. Nothing to add.

I mean come on, the dragons bodies ? I don't care. Just like the body of that random ennemy I killed.
 There was war, they did things, they're not there anymore, but created things who did things. Clear, easy. No need for anything.

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8 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

'The thing with Katarina and Kris' ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
The joy of taking things out of context. I got the feeling that Kris have been retconned as of late.

Eh... reminds me of that fanficish dream of Awakening being the story of Crusader weapons holder. Robin having Falaflamme, Chrom having Tirfing. It was pretty weird and went absolutely nowhere.

More into the discussion.... Well no one care all of that. It's the past of those games. A well and firmly established past with that. Changing or trying to tie things is just a disaster waiting to happens. Just like it was shown just now.
Lev was possessed by Hoselty's will after dying, and that's it. Nothing to add.

I mean come on, the dragons bodies ? I don't care. Just like the body of that random ennemy I killed.
 There was war, they did things, they're not there anymore, but created things who did things. Clear, easy. No need for anything.

Well, I do ship Kris x Katarina. XD But aside from that, Kris is pretty much canon, but doesn't exist in the history purely because he didn't want it. Of course, this pisses others off cause of how that hurt Marth's character and in a sense made Kris seem to be this amazing person that's just as great as Marth. 

I won't argue so much into what you said regarding no one caring about establishing new stuff into old games, because in a sense, you're absolutely right. They did establish a lot of stuff in those games that there doesn't need to be so much need to tie loose ends. If we're talking about Awakening or Fates, then there's MUCH that needs establishing, since both have issues with missing specific details, especially Fates, since Awakening at least stands well enough on its own. 

But remakes will always have retcons and if Echoes does well, which I'm almost certain it will, they will consider remaking other games too. 

Sure, I won't have that much faith in that belief that the old and new fans will all get along, because lets face it, it will never happen. Bunch of old fans will continue to hate the new, and new fans will retaliate and hate the old.

Edited by omegaxis1
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@TheWerdna is wrong. The timeline is not constructed through second hand quotes by the fans. The timeline is official. The timeline comes straight from FE3. There is a detailed timeline that appears at the end of the game if you complete both parts straight through without losing a single unit. The timeline for FE4 is also from the game itself. Both can be found here. We can form an easy link between the timelines because Kaga himself said that the events of FE4 (Sigurd leaving out to rescue Adean and everything that came after) take place 1000 years before the events of FE1/FE3B1/FE11 (Marth leaves Talys with his army and everything that came before, ignoring the prologue) so using both calendars, we can link the year 604 Archanea with the year 757 Gran as having 1000 year gap between them. And nothing about the timeline was retconned since then.

Loptyr transferred his will and power into the Loptyr tome. He did this in an attempt to avoid degeneration and become effectively immortal. Who cares what happened to his body? It either died or was sealed with the Earth Dragons since that body won't have power after transferring all of it to the tome. 

I keep saying but it bears repeating. Naga did not fight Loptyr directly. The tomes did battle while Naga was on a different continent and original Loptyr has been dead or sealed for at most 200 years at that point.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker
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18 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's what you theorized, isn't it? Wind and Ice aren't necessarily the same. Its been more theorized that Forseti is a Divine Dragon, but there hasn't been a strong enough mention to use. 

But why couldn't the other unnamed dragons be Divine Dragons?

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3 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

@TheWerdna is wrong. The timeline is not constructed through second hand quotes by the fans. The timeline is official. The timeline comes straight from FE3. There is a detailed timeline that appears at the end of the game if you complete both parts straight through without losing a single unit. The timeline for FE4 is also from the game itself. Both can be found here. We can form an easy link between the timelines because Kaga himself said that the events of FE4 (Sigurd leaving out to rescue Adean and everything that came after) take place 1000 years before the events of FE1/FE3B1/FE11 (Marth leaves Talys with his army and everything that came before, ignoring the prologue) so using both calendars, we can link the year 604 Archanea with the year 757 Gran as having 1000 year gap between them. And nothing about the timeline was retconned since then.

Loptyr transferred his will and power into the Loptyr tome. He did this in an attempt to avoid degeneration and become effectively immortal. Who cares what happened to his body? It either died or was sealed with the Earth Dragons since that body won't have power after transferring all of it to the tome. 

I keep saying but it bears repeating. Naga did not fight Loptyr directly. The tomes did battle while Naga was on a different continent and original Loptyr has been dead or sealed for at most 200 years at that point.

Thank you. Because of this, you have basically confirmed that there were absolutely NO confirmation that Naga had or even used the Falchion during the Earth Dragon war with the Earth Dragons, and that its shown in this very timeline you're showing me, that the sword and the shield of seals are referred to being sealed in the same year after the Earth Dragons were defeated.

As for connecting the timeline, we could use this:

https://fireemblemwiki.org/Timeline_of_Archanea,_Valentia_and_Jugdral

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

But why couldn't the other unnamed dragons be Divine Dragons?

Well, there are a few possible reasons why. Given how its said most of the Divine Dragons went extinct or exhausted there power, its unlikely they could even forge weapons for the Jugdral as they would have no power to. There were no confirmation about Forseti's tribe, but we heard that Naga was the "god of light" and Salamand was the "god of fire" so it can be inferred that Naga was Divine (which is true) and Salamand was Fire. In which case, its arguable that they weren't all comprised of Divine Dragons, maybe a few at best, but not 12 Divine Dragons. 

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33 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Thank you. Because of this, you have basically confirmed that there were absolutely NO confirmation that Naga had or even used the Falchion during the Earth Dragon war with the Earth Dragons,

Like I said, we already know the Valentian Falchion in SoV was created way before the dragons started degenerating for the explicit purpose of being used against Mila and Duma. The Archanean Falchion then would be possibly created to be used against the Earth Dragons.

Quote

and that its shown in this very timeline you're showing me, that the sword and the shield of seals are referred to being sealed in the same year after the Earth Dragons were defeated.

...Yes, I never denied that. In fact, I kept bringing it up again and again. The Falchion and Shield were sealed at the same time. They were sealed at the same but only the Shield is stated to have been forged after the war. If they were both created at the same time, this would be mentioned but only the shield is mentioned as having been created after the war. The wording is very specific.

The Valentian Falchion being created before the war gives credit to the Archanean Falchion being created before. After all, if the Valentian Falchion was to be used to fight degenerated dragons, why wouldn't another be created when said degenerating happened? The idea that Falchion was created after the war has no evidence. Like none.

Going by SoV information, believing that the Archanean Falchion was not created or used in the war would require us to accept that:

1) The Valentian Falchion was created by Naga to fight degenerated dragons.

2) It was given to Mila and Duma.

3) Yet when the actual war against the Earth Dragons happened, Naga didn't create a second Falchion (which, need I remind you because it just points out the absurdity of this belief, exists to fight dragons).

4) Fought against the Earth Dragons without any weapon (despite having created one before).

5) Somehow got injured or weakened or crippled.

6) Then created the Archanean Falchion AFTER the war ended and died.

This is absurd, to say the least. And all this to serve your insistence that Naga and Loptyr were not equals. That Naga had to be injured in the war. That this is what caused Naga's death. All the while the actual explanation exists in plain sight: Naga creating the Naga tome, transferring all their will and power into it, supported by the fact that the actual Lopytr never figures into the story after he too did the same type of Blood Pact.

This is some Game Theory levels of nonsense.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker
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4 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Like I said, we already know the Valentian Falchion in SoV was created way before the dragons started degenerating for the explicit purpose of being used against Mila and Duma. The Archanean Falchion then would be possibly created to be used against the Earth Dragons.

...Yes, I never denied that. In fact, I kept bringing it up again and again. The Falchion and Shield were sealed at the same time. They were sealed at the same but only the Shield is stated to have been forged after the war. If they were both created at the same time, this would be mentioned but only the shield is mentioned as having been created after the war. The wording is very specific.

The Valentian Falchion being created before the war gives credit to the Archanean Falchion being created before. After all, if the Valentian Falchion was to be used to fight degenerated dragons, why wouldn't another be created when said degenerating happened? The idea that Falchion was created after the war has no evidence. Like none.

Going by SoV information, believing that the Archanean Falchion was not created or used in the war would require us to accept that:

1) The Valentian Falchion was created by Naga to fight degenerated dragons.

2) It was given to Mila and Duma.

3) Yet when the actual war against the Earth Dragons happened, Naga didn't create a second Falchion (which, need I remind you because it just points out the absurdity of this belief, exists to fight dragons).

4) Fought against the Earth Dragons without any weapon (despite having created one before).

5) Somehow got injured or weakened or crippled.

6) Then created the Archanean Falchion AFTER the war ended and died.

This is absurd, to say the least. And all this to serve your insistence that Naga and Loptyr were not equals. That Naga had to be injured in the war. That this is what caused Naga's death. All the while the actual explanation exists in plain sight: Naga creating the Naga tome, transferring all their will and power into it, supported by the fact that the actual Lopytr never figures into the story after he too did the same type of Blood Pact.

This is some Game Theory levels of nonsense.

Actually, hold on. We're actually now mixing up a lot of information here. First off, Falchion was always made and designed for the sole purpose of giving HUMANS the ability to fight and defeat Dragons. Just because we hear right now that the Valentian Falchion was made before the Earth Dragon war does not even hint the idea that there was another Falchion for Archanea. 

Naga herself never needed the weapon to defeat other dragons. Furthermore, while degeneration was a danger to the dragons, we are actually understanding that even despite using their dragon powers, it doesn't mean they will always succumb to degeneration. In fact, Loptyr is actually a perfectly good example that not all Earth Dragons did succumb to degeneration. Loptyr had to have been able to think clearly to understand that the war with the Divine Dragon was futile, and even formulated a plan to spread his chaos further on the humans. So in a sense, that would support the idea that Naga herself can avoid degenerating even when using her dragon powers in the war. 

The power of Falchion only works to defeat dragons because the Falchion is from Naga's fang, who is a Divine Dragon, and thus has the power to fight with the ferocity of a Divine Dragon. 

Naga forged one Falchion and gave it to Duma and Mila, which from what someone mentioned, was meant so that the humans in Valentia would be able to use it against them if the need arose. When the war with the Earth Dragons happened, for Naga to assume manakete form to fight with another Falchion is unlikely, because again, Manaketes are known to have sealed so much power off with the dragonstone that the physical bodies they now have are very weak and fragile, and are even vulnerable to die by conventional means. So Naga would have to use her dragon powers to fight the Earth Dragons along with the others. If Naga was said to have fought with Falchion, then Xane would have mentioned it when recapping about the war, but all that was said about the Falchion is that it was simply made to give humans a fighting chance. So if never there was mention of Naga forging it during the war or just before the war with the Earth Dragons that she used it, then its unlikely that it happened, and its actually MORE likely that it was made after. 

However, the war was said time and time again to have been brutal and that the Divine Dragons died or used so much power that they lost the ability to take dragon form. Naga might not, but she HAD to have suffered from the war. Okay, maybe its possible that she could have recovered enough for the 200 years after the war, and was jsut learning about Loptyr, but if she was still mostly considered recently recovered, then even if she can use all her power, the act would just harm her life force more. Meaning if she channeled her power into her tome to give to Heim, placing some of her will and her power into it to combat Loptyr, the strain of putting her power despite recovering just recently affects her physical body all the more. 

So in terms of power, Loptyr and Naga are equals. Especially if we go with the theory that Loptyr's malevolence had allowed him to evolve to a Dark Dragon as well. However, I'm still holding true that Naga's physical condition was still dire and that the act just further weakened her condition, and then it took all she had to seal Tiki off. 

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In fact, Loptyr is actually a perfectly good example that not all Earth Dragons did succumb to degeneration. Loptyr had to have been able to think clearly to understand that the war with the Divine Dragon was futile, and even formulated a plan to spread his chaos further on the humans.

Loptyr was not degenerated when he made the pact.

Again, it is never stated that Naga suffered any injury or was weakened. Despite a lot of insignificant details being mentioned, this is never mentioned. If Naga was weakened, Kaga would have mentioned it.

You insist that Naga must have been injured in the war, despite all the evidence to the contrary. You insist this because you refused to believe that Naga and Loptyr were equals so tried to come up with some excuse to downgrade Naga. All because you refuse to believe that Loptyr was indeed far, far more powerful than any of the other earth dragons (this is stated in the game) similar to how Naga was far, fast more powerful than other divine dragons. You keep belittling Naga's power. There is no reason to believe the idea that Naga would suffer damage to or have her 'life force' shortened in the war when we already know that Naga was way stronger than the other divine and earth dragons. Thus, Naga would not be weakened but the other divine dragons can still die because they are not as strong as Naga. Loptyr similarly was way stronger than his kin and other divine dragons with only Naga being his equal. Thus, we know the cause of Naga's demise: Transferring all power and will into the Naga tome. The evidence is right there: the actual Loptye disappears from the story after he makes the pact because he transferred all his power and will. His actual self would be a weak earth dragon after transferring his power. There is no need to invent some ridiculous theory about Naga being weakened in the war to explain Naga's death. It's all very clear.

 

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Just now, Ranger Jack Walker said:

You insist that Naga must have been injured in the war, despite all the evidence to the contrary. You insist this because you refused to believe that Naga and Loptyr were equals so tried to come up with some excuse to downgrade Naga. All because you refuse to believe that Loptyr was indeed far, far more powerful than any of the other earth dragons (this is stated in the game) similar to how Naga was far, fast more powerful than other divine dragons. You keep belittling Naga's power. There is no reason to believe the idea that Naga would suffer damage to or have her 'life force' shortened in the war when we already know that Naga was way stronger than the other divine and earth dragons. Thus, Naga would not be weakened but the other divine dragons can still die because they are not as strong as Naga. Loptyr similarly was way stronger than his kin and other divine dragons with only Naga being his equal. Thus, we know the cause of Naga's demise: Transferring all power and will into the Naga tome. The evidence is right there: the actual Loptye disappears from the story after he makes the pact because he transferred all his power and will. His actual self would be a weak earth dragon after transferring his power. There is no need to invent some ridiculous theory about Naga being weakened in the war to explain Naga's death. It's all very clear.

 

What evidence to the contrary? Your mention of saying there's evidence saying that Naga wasn't injured is that Kaga simply never mentioned it. That isn't even evidence to anything. 

Also, stop misunderstanding something. It's not my intention to downgrade Naga or Loptyr here by saying they weren't equals. My intention is to make sense on Naga's death overall. Furthermore, Forseti merely never said that Loptyr was the most powerful Earth Dragon or even far stronger than any other Earth Dragon. Of course, when Forseti mentioned that Loptyr possessed the diabolical power of the tribe, its most likely he's referring to the possibility that Loptyr became a Dark Dragon. 

And even if Naga was the strongest Divine Dragon does not mean in any way that the war would not have held the slightest bit of an effect against her. Strongest does not equal invincible. Furthermore, when Xane was describing the war with the Earth Dragons, Loptyr was never mentioned. However, what he mentions is that after the war, the Divine Dragons died out, and then Naga's life came to an end after sealing the sword. If anything, that's pretty much Xane implying that Naga DID suffer from the war and that the wounds caused from that ultimately damaged her life span and caused her to die later on. Even in FE12, the very remake of FE3, Loptyr still goes unmentioned, meaning that Xane is STILL implying that it was really the war that ultimately killed her. 

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Naga's death already makes sense. There is no reason to invent some injury. Lewyn says Loptyr's clan wields the most diabolical power. You cannot keep dismissing this ny saying this refers to Loptyr being a Shadow Dragon, especially since that's endorsement of Loptyr being the strongest, considering the power of Shadow Dragons. Loptyr and Naga are equals and far more powerful than their respective tribes.

Why would Xane mention Loptyr? It's not relevant to Archanea's history. If he had mentioned Loptyr, he would have to go into Jugdral's entire history and they (or the player) doesn't time for that. Remember that they're talking in the middle of the Flame Barrel where Fire Dragons are emerging to attack. Also, after transferring his power into Galle and the tome, the actual Loptyr is a non-issue.

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1 minute ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Naga's death already makes sense. There is no reason to invent some injury. Lewyn says Loptyr's clan wields the most diabolical power. You cannot keep dismissing this ny saying this refers to Loptyr being a Shadow Dragon, especially since that's endorsement of Loptyr being the strongest, considering the power of Shadow Dragons. Loptyr and Naga are equals and far more powerful than their respective tribes.

There we go. Loptyr's CLAN. Meaning NOT Loptyr himself. This is referring to the entire Earth Dragons, rather than just Loptyr himself. This statement means that there is still no direct mention that Loptyr is actually unique to the Earth Dragons. He's powerful, yes, but Forseti mentioned nothing regarding Loptyr himself over that he's stronger than the power of the other dragons that lent power to humans. 

3 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Why would Xane mention Loptyr? It's not relevant to Archanea's history. If he had mentioned Loptyr, he would have to go into Jugdral's entire history and they (or the player) doesn't time for that. Remember that they're talking in the middle of the Flame Barrel where Fire Dragons are emerging to attack. Also, after transferring his power into Galle and the tome, the actual Loptyr is a non-issue.

No, Xane is not implying Naga suffered any wounds. Stop making shit up. Xane only mentioned the toll the war had on the divine dragons. If Naga would have suffered any injury, Xane would have mentioned it as well. Kaga would have mentioned it. 

Again, there is no reason to believe Naga suffered any injury when we know that Naga was significantly stronger than other dragons.

Naga dying because they transferred their power and will into the tome is fact supported by the game. Naga getting an injury is lousy fanfiction not supported by the game. 

Now look who's making shit up. There was absolutely NO mention of creating a tome that possessed your power or will to actually cause damage the person creating it. The idea that it does something to the dragons themselves is what I said in my theory. So if you're gonna take my theory into context, you gotta take them all.

And that's just it. Not mentioning Loptyr by Xane means that he held no real role in the Earth Dragons or Naga's part just shows how irrelevant he was to Naga's history if even the remake made no mention. So your attempt to justify that it was the fight with Loptyr that crippled Naga is actually less likely than my theory that it was the war that did it. Also, how is it that Xane referring to the entire Divine Dragon tribe as a race not somehow including Naga, who is still a Divine Dragon? The very fact that Xane refers to the tribe as a whole already justifies my theory that Naga had suffered. 

Furthermore, going by how the Earth Dragons are being referred to as a tribe so strong that it can rival the Divine Dragons and the fact that they ultimately outlive the Divine Dragons is more a testament that the Earth Dragons CAN have wounded Naga's physical body to a great degree, especially since there were a lot.

So its actually the reverse here. There's no reason to believe that Loptyr caused Naga to ultimately die or had the major factor over the entire dragon war. 

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"Transferring all power and will" doesn't leave any room for interpretation. They're not copy pasting their powers or some stupid shit. Transfer. TRANSFER. The word is crystal fucking clear, holy shit.

Loptyr is a Shadow Dragon. That makes him significantly stronger than Earth Dragons. All this evidence right in the fucking game and still you ignore everything. Gotoh makes this clear.

Why would Xane mention Loptyr? They don't have the time to go into the Miracle of Darna or Jugdral entire history. Also, very strange that you'd use Xane not mentioning Loptyr as evidence of him not being a factor yet you ignore the fact that Naga suffering any sort of injury is also never mentioned.

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Just now, Ranger Jack Walker said:

"Transferring all power and will" doesn't leave any room for interpretation. They're not copy pasting their powers or some stupid shit. Transfer. TRANSFER. The word is crystal fucking clear, holy shit.

Transfer does not mean that it would cripple them, nor was there ever mention as you love to say, Kaga never said that it would damage the dragon themselves. Nor did Kaga ever say that doing this ever harmed Naga either. 

1 minute ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Loptyr is a Shadow Dragon. That makes him significantly stronger than Earth Dragons. All this evidence right in the fucking game and still you ignore everything. Gotoh makes this clear.

That's nothing more than a fan-based theory. There was never any guaranteed proof that Loptyr was in fact a Shadow Dragon. People only claim he was because he had a darker appearance, but all interview questions says that he's an Earth Dragon. Not an Earth Dragon that evolved. 

2 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Why would Xane mention Loptyr? They don't have the time to go into the Miracle of Darna or Jugdral entire history. Also, very strange that you'd use Xane not mentioning Loptyr as evidence of him not being a factor yet you ignore the fact that Naga suffering any sort of injury is also never mentioned.

Because Xane's referral to the ENTIRE Divine Dragon race already acts as my evidence. 

"It's a dragon graveyard in the mountains of Macedon. There, the earth dragons sleep. A long time ago... Thousands of years ago in fact... The mighty earth dragons lost their minds and attacked the humans. 'Course, the humans barely stood a chance. Most were annihilated, and the rest pushed into the desolate corners of the continent. And then... the divine dragon Naga, strongest of them all, waged a war for humanity. It was a fierce battle, but Naga emerged victorious in the end, and sealed the earth dragons below Dolhr, in a deep sleep. And so that the power of the seal would not wither, she created the "shield of the five orbs" and placed it in the Fane of Raman. "

"Naga took pity on you humans, with no way of protecting yourselves, so she created it from one of her fangs. Then, together with the shield, she sealed it in the fane, and had the remainin' dragon houses watch over humanity. She put the newly born Tiki to sleep and thus ended her 5,000-year life. 'Cause of all this, Gotoh's tryin' his best to carry out Naga's order."

There you go. These lines are already acts as my evidence that refers to a battle that Naga struggled through. If Naga was not injured in the slightest, then there's no point in calling this a "fierce" war. Also, look at how its said that she sealed them away, and that to make sure the seal doesn't wither, she had the Shield of Seals forged with the Five Orbs. Think clearly here. Why would she consider the seal to not hold? Because if she made the seal, then her power is necessary to hold the seal, and it can't if her power dies out, and that's only if she dies. Meaning that she WAS suffering from that. 

Furthermore, the very Shield of Seals is said to utilize Naga's powers, hence why the seal on the dragons hold. That means that forging this artifact of great power would mean that Naga had to have transferred a lot of her power to last through an eternity for the dragons. 

Xane's FE12 explanation pretty much supports my theories far more than your theory that it was only the Lpotyr fight that got her life.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Transfer does not mean that it would cripple them, nor was there ever mention as you love to say, Kaga never said that it would damage the dragon themselves. Nor did Kaga ever say that doing this ever harmed Naga either. 

It literally says "transfer all their power and will". ALL. Holy shit. Honest quesiton, what do you think transfer means?

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's nothing more than a fan-based theory. There was never any guaranteed proof that Loptyr was in fact a Shadow Dragon. People only claim he was because he had a darker appearance, but all interview questions says that he's an Earth Dragon. Not an Earth Dragon that evolved.

He intentionally looks identical to Medeus' appearance as a Shadow Dragon. Once again, holy shit, how do you keep ignoring what's stated and shown in the game to support your fanfiction?

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Why would she consider the seal to not hold? Because if she made the seal, then her power is necessary to hold the seal, and it can't if her power dies out, and that's only if she dies. Meaning that she WAS suffering from that. 

Furthermore, the very Shield of Seals is said to utilize Naga's powers, hence why the seal on the dragons hold. That means that forging this artifact of great power would mean that Naga had to have transferred a lot of her power to last through an eternity for the dragons. 

The forging of the Binding Shield happened after the Miracle of Darna. So yeah, Naga would be weakened after the Miracle of Darna. Not before though. There is nothing to suggest that Naga was weakened before that.

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4 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

The forging of the Binding Shield happened after the Miracle of Darna. So yeah, Naga would be weakened after the Miracle of Darna. Not before though. There is nothing to suggest that Naga was weakened before that.

Just to clarify, but the Shield and second Falchion were made in Archanea Year -740, after the War with the Earth Dragons. Miracle of Darna was in Archanea Year -548. So it was before, not after.

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