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Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)


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On 5/16/2017 at 7:20 AM, VincentASM said:

Eh, I don't really feel like stepping in, but I was suddenly reminded that this isn't the first time Divine Dragons have been corrupted. In Binding Blade, they made Idoun who was originally a Divine Dragon into a Demon/Mage Dragon.

Which I still don't really understand, but nevermind.

Anyway, I do think Duma is more of a Necrodragon than anything at this stage. Don't forget, Shadow Dragons are a true form. However Duma in this state is in very bad shape and rotting at the seams.

Yes, Binding Blade does show that dragons can become dark, but I can't use that argument completely because that part is in a different realm and could run on different universe laws for all I know. But if I had to, its a similar case then so Duma could be the same case. 

Duma wasn't necessarily rotting mind you. He was more degenerating and it was also somehow affecting his appearance as well. 

On 5/16/2017 at 8:20 AM, Mysterique Sign said:

Doesn't the game specifically mention that Duma's going mad?

 

On 5/16/2017 at 9:36 AM, VincentASM said:

Yup, it's a major plot point. I am not 100% sure, but I think even Mila is starting to lose her sanity.

The main reason Rudolf instigated the war is because the people of Valentia have been too reliant on the dragons who are on the brink of going bonkers.

The degeneration hitting them also makes sense. It was bound to happen, as Mila and Duma never seemed to take Manakete form. However, if that's the case, they didn't degenerate for a long time, as it was well over 1000 years after the dragon war ended, meaning they've managed to maintain their sanity. I don't think it was mentioned if they ever became true manaketes or if they can just assume a human form normally. 

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Idoun, a Divine Dragon from Elibe being turned into a Mage/Demon Dragon pretty much negates any connection between Elibe and Archanea as Mage Dragons in Archanea are a separate tribe, not a corruption of something else.

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2 hours ago, RJWalker said:

Idoun, a Divine Dragon from Elibe being turned into a Mage/Demon Dragon pretty much negates any connection between Elibe and Archanea as Mage Dragons in Archanea are a separate tribe, not a corruption of something else.

Hence why I don't stick to that argument so much. Especially since the Mage/Demon Dragon that Iduun became doesn't even resembles the Mage Dragon from Archanea. She resembles a Shadow Dragon there. 

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Hence why I don't stick to that argument so much. Especially since the Mage/Demon Dragon that Iduun became doesn't even resembles the Mage Dragon from Archanea. She resembles a Shadow Dragon there. 

No, she resembles the intended depiction of Mage Dragons from Archanea.

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/a/a0/Mage_Dragon_(TCG).png/revision/latest?cb=20160808143821

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/c/c6/Mage_dragon_illustration.png/revision/latest?cb=20160818004250

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/8/81/Idoun_darkdragon_breath.gif/revision/latest?cb=20081217105930

Their appearance in Mystery of the Emblem is one of the instances of limited space as everything else in the game is generally very accurately depicted to how it's supposed to be (such as Wyverns and the mounts that Dracoknights ride being identical).

Shadow Dragons used to be legless and wingless until this was retconned in FE12.

Edited by RJWalker
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1 minute ago, RJWalker said:

No, she resembles the intended depiction of Mage Dragons from Archanea.

[img src="https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/a/a0/Mage_Dragon_(TCG).png/revision/latest?cb=20160808143821"]

[img src="https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/c/c6/Mage_dragon_illustration.png/revision/latest?cb=20160818004250"]

[img src="https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/8/81/Idoun_darkdragon_breath.gif/revision/latest?cb=20081217105930"]

Their appearance in Mystery of the Emblem is one of the instances of limited space as everything else in the game is generally very accurately depicted to how it's supposed to be (such as Wyverns and the mounts that Dracoknights ride being identical).

I don't particularly follow the first pic, since that's a picture from a trading card, but the rest seem to work, and I took a look at the Mage dragon from the game, and apart from the wings they do resemble one another.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

I don't particularly follow the first pic, since that's a picture from a trading card, but the rest seem to work, and I took a look at the Mage dragon from the game, and apart from the wings they do resemble one another.

The point is that Idounn looks identical to the Mage Dragons which is an obvious poorly visual reference since the circumstances prevent an actual link from existing.

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5 minutes ago, RJWalker said:

The point is that Idounn looks identical to the Mage Dragons which is an obvious poorly visual reference since the circumstances prevent an actual link from existing.

Yeah, they are virtually identical there. Well, not surprising, since the designs are made once there and then the designed with some work added into it so that it can save some time. 

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On 5/16/2017 at 4:00 AM, omegaxis1 said:

Zero proof that Divine Dragons can harness other elements? Duma, a Divine Dragon is using darkness based elements and the Megaquake, an earth element. That's ALL the proof I need. It's there. It's done. And neither do I, but I learn to multitask. I'm not claiming ANYTHING at this point. There's just no point in arguing against how things would work if Duma was an Earth Dragon or a Divine Dragon. But canon-wise, Duma is a Divine Dragon. Stop ignoring the fact right there.

I JUST said that already. The first Falchion was made BEFORE the war. The second one was likely made during or after the war at the very least. There's no proof when the second one was made, but based on conversation with Xane, it had to have been made around those times.

Actually, YES. There is. I JUST explained that Naga is the cautious type, and the risks of taking Falchion already exist. But my assertion is that she didn't use Falchion because she no longer had the strength through her physical body to create one, so instead opted to use the magic tome to rival her power, which Falchion is the same. Had she tried to make Falchion when she was physically weaker, her fangs would therefore be weaker, and it'd be like the Falchion that Nagi gives to Marth in Shadow Dragon, much weaker than the original because it's made by Nagi who doesn't hold all of the original Naga's power at the time. And since she can't give her fang that can hold her might to the humans, instead she gives her power, and while worrying, was their only hope of besting Loptyr. 

Now look who's ignoring canon. Hello pot, I'm kettle, and I'd like to say you're black. 

Do you want me to show you the support between Lucina and Owain again? It doesn't matter if the appearance is different after 2000 years. Falchion remains Falchion. Its power is sealed after the new rite has been performed to try and seal Grima, but through the Awakening, the true might, and the user's "strength will then be (Naga's) equal". If Falchion's full strength is already confirmed here to be Naga's equal in power, then there's ZERO reason to argue that Book of Naga is stronger, because THAT would also be Naga's equal. Hence why I said repeatedly, at best, the two weapons are EQUAL!

So you actually cannot argue this any further. Falchion and Book of Naga can only at best rival one another. But after 2000 years, Falchion holds strong because it can get all its power back, whereas Book of Naga will continue to weaken over time. 

Oh my god, you are arguing over something ridiculous right now. Falchion's change in appearance is EXPLAINED! The gemstones appearance was NEVER brought to mention. And AGAIN, you are arguing over the appearance of a TRADING CARD GAME PICTURE with an IN GAME PICTURE. There is ZERO canon connection between the two. You cannot assert that a TCG pic holds ANY form of relevance to the actual design that the game shows us. And saying that its the same reasoning as Falchion's change has ZERO evidence to back it up.

How is it utter nonsense? Duma is a DIVINE DRAGON. And as you love to always point out, Duma's powers resemble nothing of said Divine Dragons. Why? Because his power is now shifting away at best to a darker version. And for all we know, Shadow Dragons might vary in appearance depending on the race that turns/turning into one. Duma might be the appearance of the first ever Divine Dragon turned Shadow. 

Duma can use Earthquake, so can Jamil, guess that makes him a master of all elements? And Duma doesn’t use  a single dark magic in ANY version of the game. There’s a major difference between manipulating that elemental spirits that exist in the world like humans and being actually intuned with the element like how Shadow Dragons are with Shadow.

Duma being a Divine Dragon in the remake in no way justifies your inane ideas for retcons to the series.

Naga would be overly cautious about the idea of Earth Dragons taking Manakete form to kill her with the Falchion like a human, yet has no problem giving the Falchion to a Divine Dragon in Manakete form she exiled, alright your ideas are inconsistent.

There’s no evidence for Naga not having the Falchion physical strength, everyone in the thread has repeatedly mentioned all depictions of Naga  shows the Dragon was perfectly healthy at the miracle of DArna.

You still have zero backup for you claim that Falchion is said to be the ultimate weapon, were is this line you keep claiming says this? Also the original Falchion was never stated to have Naga's power in it and statements indicate it didn't have it. The art book itself implies the Naga in Awakening is a new character.

Kaga says  “Gato attached a contract to them so that only the user could wield them. The same kind of protection was also placed on the Falchion.” So Falchion is more along the lines of Aura rather then the Naga tome from the words of the writers himself.

No, you are still the only one ignoring canon with your consistent fanon about Duma being a Shadow Dragon, Naga tome not possessing people, or Loptyr being weak. 

Is_ds_starsphere.pngIs_3ds03_starsphere.png

The star sphere itself went from Green in the DS games to Blue in Echoes, are you going to say green Starpshere is non canon, now? 

The Falchion changing wasn’t explained because only the handle was mentioned as change, yet the Blade of the Falchion looks completely different. If you say the TCG depiction is non canon, you might as well say the depiction of the Falchion's blade in the Archanea titles is non canon.

Duma looks nothing like a Shadow Dragon, fights nothing like a Shadow Dragon, has powers nothing like a Shadow Dragon, and there’s NO evidence of Divine Dragons turning Shadow. Again its called Dark Earth Dragon. 

Seriously, just because you like Awakening doesn't mean you have to try to push all these retcons to make the older games look worse in the misguided belief it'll make Awakening look better.

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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It's flat out not the same Starsphere. Alm forges it during the events of the Undaunted Heroes pack DLC from star shards. Archanea's Starsphere is still broken over in Archanea. It's pretty clear from that alone that it's no more the same Starsphere than the Parthia and Mercurius (!!!) that Alm forges during Echoes are the same as the ones in Archanea. The card game's Archanea artwork has been retconned- to hell and back again. Jugdral's artwork from the card game is still used, but on the Archanea side of things it's been retconned into a pulp of nonexistence by the remakes and Awakening. The spheres have actual artwork within FE12 itself, Echoes's Starsphere is a completely different sphere forged from star shards that are quite obviously not the ones in Archanea as Gotoh is still looking for them as of FE12. Archanea' Starsphere is green and is implied to have been made alongside the shield. Valentia's is blue and is shown to have been forged from star shards by Alm during the events of Echoes, preventing it from being the currently broken Starsphere of Archanea that Gotoh is picking the pieces of up from around the continent still. Got that? Good. Another key detail is that the ornaments still aren't present in Awakening which might suggest they were never present to start within the current canon.

For your viewing pleasure, here's the FE12 artwork of the five spheres.

Cg_fe12_evt_06.png

 

not a sprite, but flat out artwork of them. Clockwise, Starsphere, Geosphere, Lightsphere, Lifesphere, and Darksphere. For the purpose of canon, ESPECIALLY when talking about Echoes which has a few things to deliberately tie it to the remakes specifically rather than the original versions, try not to use things that have been changed or removed by the remakes, and go solely by the remake canon- here we can clearly see the spheres with updated artwork, so as it stands the TCG artwork where they have attached ornaments is now Null and Void.

That also flat out state the Naga in Awakening is "the spirit of Naga of Archanea" in what I believe is the Japanese text of the art book you're referring to in question as well. This is why she is identical to Nagi in the Awakening artstyle, and furthermore why Nagi was FE4 Naga in the DS remake style with mild updates.

 

It does seem to be the case that the Naga tome turns the user into a vessal for Naga, same as Forseti and Loptyr.

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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9 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

It's flat out not the same Starsphere. Alm forges it during the events of the Undaunted Heroes pack DLC from star shards. Archanea's Starsphere is still broken over in Archanea. It's pretty clear from that alone that it's no more the same Starsphere than the Parthia and Mercurius (!!!) that Alm forges during Echoes are the same as the ones in Archanea. The card game's Archanea artwork has been retconned- to hell and back again. Jugdral's artwork from the card game is still used, but on the Archanea side of things it's been retconned into a pulp of nonexistence by the remakes and Awakening. The spheres have actual artwork within FE12 itself, Echoes's Starsphere is a completely different sphere forged from star shards that are quite obviously not the ones in Archanea as Gotoh is still looking for them as of FE12. Archanea' Starsphere is green and is implied to have been made alongside the shield. Valentia's is blue and is shown to have been forged from star shards by Alm during the events of Echoes, preventing it from being the currently broken Starsphere of Archanea that Gotoh is picking the pieces of up from around the continent still. Got that? Good. Another key detail is that the ornaments still aren't present in Awakening which might suggest they were never present to start within the current canon.

For your viewing pleasure, here's the FE12 artwork of the five spheres.

Cg_fe12_evt_06.png

 

not a sprite, but flat out artwork of them. Clockwise, Starsphere, Geosphere, Lightsphere, Lifesphere, and Darksphere. For the purpose of canon, ESPECIALLY when talking about Echoes which has a few things to deliberately tie it to the remakes specifically rather than the original versions, try not to use things that have been changed or removed by the remakes, and go solely by the remake canon- here we can clearly see the spheres with updated artwork, so as it stands the TCG artwork where they have attached ornaments is now Null and Void.

That also flat out state the Naga in Awakening is "the spirit of Naga of Archanea" in what I believe is the Japanese text of the art book you're referring to in question as well. This is why she is identical to Nagi in the Awakening artstyle, and furthermore why Nagi was FE4 Naga in the DS remake style with mild updates.

 

It does seem to be the case that the Naga tome turns the user into a vessal for Naga, same as Forseti and Loptyr.

Ss_fe13_tiki_using_dragonstone+.pngCg_fe12_c14.png

That still doesn’t explain why Dragon forms are inconsistent, Divine Dragon Tiki in Awakening looks nothing like the dragon form in the DS Games.

FESD_Camus.pngFESMN_Hardin.png

Then there’s Gradivus whose size and appearance has changed consistently.

So you can’t say the TCG depiction is non canon when so many things in Fire Emblem change depending on who the artist is. The artists of FE12 wanted to make the sphere's identical except for color, none have ornaments in their illustrations, simple of that, no retcons.

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@Emperor Hardin

I keep seeing this point brought up, but what's the quote suggesting Awakening Naga is a different character? Kinda wondering if that was in the original or if they added it in the English version to handwave something.

The only thing I remember is the Art of Awakening suggesting Naga is a spirit.

Also, speaking of the Art of Awakening, I remember it hints that the Falchion's blade and the Fire Emblem can repair themselves. I'm lazy to dig up the page, but I always assumed that was the reason they drastically changed forms.

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7 hours ago, VincentASM said:

@Emperor Hardin

I keep seeing this point brought up, but what's the quote suggesting Awakening Naga is a different character? Kinda wondering if that was in the original or if they added it in the English version to handwave something.

The only thing I remember is the Art of Awakening suggesting Naga is a spirit.

Also, speaking of the Art of Awakening, I remember it hints that the Falchion's blade and the Fire Emblem can repair themselves. I'm lazy to dig up the page, but I always assumed that was the reason they drastically changed forms.

It says the connection is unknown, but conjecture(meaning speculation) says Awakening's Naga is the spirit of a Divine Dragon King.

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On 5/20/2017 at 5:41 AM, Emperor Hardin said:

Duma can use Earthquake, so can Jamil, guess that makes him a master of all elements? And Duma doesn’t use  a single dark magic in ANY version of the game. There’s a major difference between manipulating that elemental spirits that exist in the world like humans and being actually intuned with the element like how Shadow Dragons are with Shadow.

Duma being a Divine Dragon in the remake in no way justifies your inane ideas for retcons to the series.

Naga would be overly cautious about the idea of Earth Dragons taking Manakete form to kill her with the Falchion like a human, yet has no problem giving the Falchion to a Divine Dragon in Manakete form she exiled, alright your ideas are inconsistent.

There’s no evidence for Naga not having the Falchion physical strength, everyone in the thread has repeatedly mentioned all depictions of Naga  shows the Dragon was perfectly healthy at the miracle of DArna.

You still have zero backup for you claim that Falchion is said to be the ultimate weapon, were is this line you keep claiming says this? Also the original Falchion was never stated to have Naga's power in it and statements indicate it didn't have it. The art book itself implies the Naga in Awakening is a new character.

Kaga says  “Gato attached a contract to them so that only the user could wield them. The same kind of protection was also placed on the Falchion.” So Falchion is more along the lines of Aura rather then the Naga tome from the words of the writers himself.

No, you are still the only one ignoring canon with your consistent fanon about Duma being a Shadow Dragon, Naga tome not possessing people, or Loptyr being weak. 

Is_ds_starsphere.pngIs_3ds03_starsphere.png

The star sphere itself went from Green in the DS games to Blue in Echoes, are you going to say green Starpshere is non canon, now? 

The Falchion changing wasn’t explained because only the handle was mentioned as change, yet the Blade of the Falchion looks completely different. If you say the TCG depiction is non canon, you might as well say the depiction of the Falchion's blade in the Archanea titles is non canon.

Duma looks nothing like a Shadow Dragon, fights nothing like a Shadow Dragon, has powers nothing like a Shadow Dragon, and there’s NO evidence of Divine Dragons turning Shadow. Again its called Dark Earth Dragon. 

Seriously, just because you like Awakening doesn't mean you have to try to push all these retcons to make the older games look worse in the misguided belief it'll make Awakening look better.

I never said that they were masters of all elements. I said that Divine Dragons are not limited to light element. Don't put words in my mouth here. So the shooting lasers and the purple energy blasts and such count as "non-darkness"? Then by all means, Grima's Expiration and the purple breath that Earth and Shadow Dragons release are also "non-darkness" as well. 

Okay, now you're literally combining arguments together to suit your own end. This and that have no place together. The argument on the case of Naga giving Duma Falchion whether he's Earth or Divine is IRRELEVANT. You are just trying to grasp at straws here to justify yourself. 

Seriously, STOP combining several arguments into one and confusing the entire point. Straighten out your facts and opinions rather than try and force your logic.

Wow... ultimate weapon is where you stopped at? Have you been paying ZERO attention to everything I said? 

No, YOU'RE the one that's ignoring the stated canon. 

Let's go at it AGAIN! Because CLEARLY you love it when I repeat myself. 

My argument through this entire fiasco with Naga's Falchion and tome has been the case where I surmise that Falchion rivals or is superior to Book of Naga. Now, neither Kaga nor the game exclusively mentioned Falchion and Book of Naga in the same sentence. Falchion was never once mentioned in the game in regards to the Book of Naga. Kaga only mentioned Falchion with Book of Naga in context here:

Quote

A: The dragon tribe has the ability to transfer their power and will into dragon stones (what humans refer to as orbs). The Falchion from Mystery of the Emblem and powerful magic like Aura, as well as the orbs on the 13 Holy Weapons of Jugdral, are all dragon stones. Humans can obtain tremendous strength from these dragon stones, but they are also in danger of losing their own will. Usually, only those who have formed blood pacts with the dragon tribe can use the power of the dragon stones, but there are exceptions if the seal on the orb has been broken.

However, afterwards, there was no mention, whether one was stronger than the other, nothing of the sort. Kaga never mentioned whether Book of Naga was superior to Falchion. 

Then we have this, with the Naga of Awakening, who's likely still Naga in a new incarnation that's still as powerful given the fabric of space-time was manipulated by her at this point, so you cannot even make an argument that Awakening's Naga is inferior to the original Naga. 

Quote

With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might. The blade of the exalts shall again strike like the dragon's fang. Your strength will then be my equal.

What does it say? It says draw Falchion's true might, meaning the full power of Falchion. And the strength will be the equal of Naga herself. What does that tell us? That says that Falchion has the full might and power of Naga herself imbued in it already. And there's even a GAMEPLAY element that supports this. Duma cannot be killed by anything except Falchion or Nosferatu. However, we see that if Marth or Roy are scanned and used against Duma, they can kill him. Marth wields Falchion. Roy wields the Binding Blade. Both of these weapons are incredible powerful and made to kill dragons. HOWEVER! Lucina CAN'T. She uses Fachion as well, but can't kill Duma. But then you realize, she has the Parallel Falchion, a Falchion that never went through the complete Awakening, and didn't draw all of Falchion's powers in it. Meaning that it's impossible to kill Duma with it the same reason that that Falchion cannot defeat Grima with it. Furthermore, Awakening has the 3 Einherjars of Marth, and all of them can wield EVERY version of Falchion, the sealed, Parallel, and Exalted. That's because he wielded how Falchion was when it was ALWAYS in full power. 

So by what claim do you even have that Naga's tome is superior, when we CLEARLY see that Falchion is the weapon that holds her full power? Simple, the tome also holds her full power as well, so at best Book of Naga RIVALS/EQUALS Falchion's power. 

But ask yourself, why? Why did Naga use Book of Naga instead of Falchion? If Falchion should have been strong enough, why go through the trouble of giving a tome with her powers? Given how Falchion was never mentioned in Genealogy, it stands to reason that Naga never actually brought the weapon with her to Jugdral. Couldn't she have simply created another one? Unless its likely that she COULDN'T. Why couldn't she? Was it too much for her? I mean, she DID just get out of a vicious war that Xane described to have been brutal. So if she was by all definition "healthy" as you claim, then Naga could have simply forged a new Falchion. It would have done the job just as well.

But no, she went and actually ended up creating a tome that has the effect of also influencing, corrupting, or possessing another's will, which is a direct violation of the law the Divine Dragons have to not meddle with human lives, which Forseti also broke by possessing Lewyn. Naga didn't want that and was worried over it, but chose to. So take in the fact that Naga had no Falchion on her, didn't want to directly attack for some reason, or possibly couldn't, she instead opted to place her powers in a tome. What supports my theory is because she was forced to do this, that means that Naga's own life force was already crippled. Regardless of whether they look perfectly "healthy", that's all it is. LOOKS healthy. If the life force is already crippled or weakened, its an inside problem that will affect their lives later, but physically in human form, they'd look fine. But if she was already weakened, she can't produce a strong enough Falchion through her fang, because that would weaken as well. So she instead uses her power and goes through the tome that uses her powers. 

Add all these logical facts together. You cannot argue that these are all baseless. The moment you ask all these inconsistencies that are there, and the theory begins to make more and more sense. 

You cannot even claim that Falchion would be ineffective against Loptyr because by this point, its proven that Falchion is Naga's full power already inside the Falchion. 

Furthermore, the blade has not made any sort of significant change at all. Only the hilt. The hilt change explanation is set. The blade itself is stated to have remained the same. In that regard, the pictures you are referring to here are all by the work of the artist. That's just like how in Megaman, people were mentioning how Zero looks different in Megaman X than he does in Zero, and Keiji confirms that storywise, the bodies looks never changed, just the art design themselves. 

From literally every form of gameplay we have seen, the Gems have remained without any form of attachments. In that regard, the TCG holds little hold on the canonicity of the looks of the items. And "Hero of the Fire Emblems" brought the rest of the point on the spheres. As for what you said there:

20 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Ss_fe13_tiki_using_dragonstone+.pngCg_fe12_c14.png

That still doesn’t explain why Dragon forms are inconsistent, Divine Dragon Tiki in Awakening looks nothing like the dragon form in the DS Games.

FESD_Camus.pngFESMN_Hardin.png

Then there’s Gradivus whose size and appearance has changed consistently.

So you can’t say the TCG depiction is non canon when so many things in Fire Emblem change depending on who the artist is. The artists of FE12 wanted to make the sphere's identical except for color, none have ornaments in their illustrations, simple of that, no retcons.

Same thing as Falchion's blade looking different. Purely the design of the artwork in the end and not an actual storywise change. 

Finally, in the case of the Duma being a Shadow Dragon... is there really any point in debating over this? 

Oh, and also, back off on the claim of me being a pure Awakening fanboy. Seriously. Unless you have something better to say against my arguments, don't start slinging that bullshit with me. What I theorize and such have absolutely no reasons stemming from favoritism. I might like Awakening, but that has no form of control over theories I make. 

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20 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Ss_fe13_tiki_using_dragonstone+.pngCg_fe12_c14.png

That still doesn’t explain why Dragon forms are inconsistent, Divine Dragon Tiki in Awakening looks nothing like the dragon form in the DS Games.

I actually want to point out that it's implied Golden divine dragons (like in Awakening and how Naga appears in FE4) are more powerful Divine dragons whereas white Divine dragons are weaker and/or younger. This specific fact piqued my curiosity a while back when I noticed Nowi and Adult Tiki were golden in Heroes, therefore somewhat confirming that I thought the Divine dragons of Awakening seemed golden, so I dug a little.

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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1 minute ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I actually want to point out that it's implied Golden divine dragons (like in Awakening and how Naga appears in FE4) are more powerful Divine dragons whereas white Divine dragons are weaker and/or younger

... So Nowi is stronger than Tiki? Nowi's a golden dragon.

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

... So Nowi is stronger than Tiki? Nowi's a golden dragon.

Tiki grows in power between FE11/12 and Awakening. By contrast, Naga/Nagi is weakened between FE4 and FE11/12- hence "you've revived even weaker than I have"- and that's probably how Medeus can tell at a glance. That's why Tiki becomes golden in Awakening and why Nagi seems to become white in FE11/12, whereas Naga was golden in FE4 and Tiki was white in 11/12.

 

Tiki and Nowi are both golden dragons in Awakening, if you notice, so I'd wager Tiki is still definitely stronger than Nowi by a lot since they imply such

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Tiki grows in power between FE11/12 and Awakening. By contrast, Naga/Nagi is weakened between FE4 and FE11/12- hence "you've revived even weaker than I have"- and that's probably how Medeus can tell at a glance

But Tiki is still colored silver/white. 

I honestly don't think that the color of the Divine Dragon held any significant sign for their power. I mean, Naga feared Tiki's powers to the point of considering killing her. If this was Tiki as an infant, then that means that her being a silver dragon had no affect on her overall power. 

Tiki's always been implied to have power that could rival if not surpass Naga's own. Given by how she took over Naga's spot in Future Past 3 and unlocked all of Falchion's power, its already likely she's already just as strong there.

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But Tiki is still colored silver/white. 

I honestly don't think that the color of the Divine Dragon held any significant sign for their power. I mean, Naga feared Tiki's powers to the point of considering killing her. If this was Tiki as an infant, then that means that her being a silver dragon had no affect on her overall power. 

Tiki's always been implied to have power that could rival if not surpass Naga's own. Given by how she took over Naga's spot in Future Past 3 and unlocked all of Falchion's power, its already likely she's already just as strong there.

Tiki and Nowi have the same hue in Awakening last I checked. 

 

Edit: despite this, she inexplicibly does have a silver glow in Heroes. So I'm not sure anymore if we take their Heroes appearances as indicative

Tiki actually did become golden in FE3 Book 2 despite being white in Book 1, which was indicative of her aging, so It seems that that part has been retconned for sure now along with most of FE3.

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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1 minute ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Tiki and Nowi have the same hue in Awakening last I checked. It just has a slight silvery glow on certain parts in Awakening

FE13_Manakete_Transformed_(Nowi).png.905e3b0e4807034986e07eb7896bdaf3.pngFE13_Manakete_Transformed_(Tiki).png.25cb71e67ca1cf9865d563462fd0cb1f.png

Based on this, Tiki is silver and Nowi is gold. Sure, gameplay wise, they are sort of identical, but the argument that goes here is that Tiki sleeping so long and such makes it harder/longer for her to use her full powers, so she seems to be only as strong as Nowi. But that would already contradict the thing about the silver Divine Dragons being weaker/younger, as Tiki is still stronger storywise and older. 

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4 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Edit: despite this, she inexplicibly does have a silver glow in Heroes. So I'm not sure anymore if we take their Heroes appearances as indicative

Tiki actually did become golden in FE3 Book 2 despite being white in Book 1, which was indicative of her aging, so It seems that that part has been retconned for sure now along with most of FE3.

Heroes does show the young Tiki have her Mystery of the Emblem look dragon, and Awakening Tiki had the other dragon look. It cannot be a sign of age, given how Nah, Morgan, and even Nowi share the same look and being significantly younger, and I am quite sure that Tiki was at least 1000 years old in Mystery of the Emblem too. So I consider this just a change in the art designs. Though why they chose to go for the leafy seadragon (shockingly real) design is beyond me. 

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Duma apparently isn't a Shadow Dragon, but he was surely corrupted into a rotten shadow of what he once was. Considering how we've otherwise never seen a Divine Dragon get corrupted on their own, it might be that Duma's walking carcass look might be what all Divine Dragons become if they become dark. And for what it's worth, Duma's state does suit a corrupted holy creature assoicated with life 

Edited by Salamud
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12 hours ago, Salamud said:

Duma apparently isn't a Shadow Dragon, but he was surely corrupted into a rotten shadow of what he once was. Considering how we've otherwise never seen a Divine Dragon get corrupted on their own, it might be that Duma's walking carcass look might be what all Divine Dragons become if they become dark. And for what it's worth, Duma's state does suit a corrupted holy creature assoicated with life 

My main point wasn't particularly that Duma was a Shadow Dragon, but just that it isn't impossible for him to have dark powers or magic, since my main argument is that Divine Dragons, maybe even all dragons, are not limited to a single element. So Duma and Mila can have powers of elements beyond just light. If Forseti is a Divine Dragon, we see that he's a Divine Dragon that can control wind. 

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