Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Don't forget Loptyr has the whole zombie deadlord thing going for him too.

Actually, thanks to Echoes and explaining somewhat of his origins, the Deadlord's origins also became more clear, and it goes with the thanatophages, the insects that binds to a dead host and becomes an obedient soldiers. 

[Emperor Hardin]

On 5/21/2017 at 10:08 AM, omegaxis1 said:

I never said that they were masters of all elements. I said that Divine Dragons are not limited to light element. Don't put words in my mouth here. So the shooting lasers and the purple energy blasts and such count as "non-darkness"? Then by all means, Grima's Expiration and the purple breath that Earth and Shadow Dragons release are also "non-darkness" as well. 

Okay, now you're literally combining arguments together to suit your own end. This and that have no place together. The argument on the case of Naga giving Duma Falchion whether he's Earth or Divine is IRRELEVANT. You are just trying to grasp at straws here to justify yourself. 

Seriously, STOP combining several arguments into one and confusing the entire point. Straighten out your facts and opinions rather than try and force your logic.

Wow... ultimate weapon is where you stopped at? Have you been paying ZERO attention to everything I said? 

No, YOU'RE the one that's ignoring the stated canon. 

Let's go at it AGAIN! Because CLEARLY you love it when I repeat myself. 

My argument through this entire fiasco with Naga's Falchion and tome has been the case where I surmise that Falchion rivals or is superior to Book of Naga. Now, neither Kaga nor the game exclusively mentioned Falchion and Book of Naga in the same sentence. Falchion was never once mentioned in the game in regards to the Book of Naga. Kaga only mentioned Falchion with Book of Naga in context here:

However, afterwards, there was no mention, whether one was stronger than the other, nothing of the sort. Kaga never mentioned whether Book of Naga was superior to Falchion. 

Then we have this, with the Naga of Awakening, who's likely still Naga in a new incarnation that's still as powerful given the fabric of space-time was manipulated by her at this point, so you cannot even make an argument that Awakening's Naga is inferior to the original Naga. 

What does it say? It says draw Falchion's true might, meaning the full power of Falchion. And the strength will be the equal of Naga herself. What does that tell us? That says that Falchion has the full might and power of Naga herself imbued in it already. And there's even a GAMEPLAY element that supports this. Duma cannot be killed by anything except Falchion or Nosferatu. However, we see that if Marth or Roy are scanned and used against Duma, they can kill him. Marth wields Falchion. Roy wields the Binding Blade. Both of these weapons are incredible powerful and made to kill dragons. HOWEVER! Lucina CAN'T. She uses Fachion as well, but can't kill Duma. But then you realize, she has the Parallel Falchion, a Falchion that never went through the complete Awakening, and didn't draw all of Falchion's powers in it. Meaning that it's impossible to kill Duma with it the same reason that that Falchion cannot defeat Grima with it. Furthermore, Awakening has the 3 Einherjars of Marth, and all of them can wield EVERY version of Falchion, the sealed, Parallel, and Exalted. That's because he wielded how Falchion was when it was ALWAYS in full power. 

So by what claim do you even have that Naga's tome is superior, when we CLEARLY see that Falchion is the weapon that holds her full power? Simple, the tome also holds her full power as well, so at best Book of Naga RIVALS/EQUALS Falchion's power. 

But ask yourself, why? Why did Naga use Book of Naga instead of Falchion? If Falchion should have been strong enough, why go through the trouble of giving a tome with her powers? Given how Falchion was never mentioned in Genealogy, it stands to reason that Naga never actually brought the weapon with her to Jugdral. Couldn't she have simply created another one? Unless its likely that she COULDN'T. Why couldn't she? Was it too much for her? I mean, she DID just get out of a vicious war that Xane described to have been brutal. So if she was by all definition "healthy" as you claim, then Naga could have simply forged a new Falchion. It would have done the job just as well.

But no, she went and actually ended up creating a tome that has the effect of also influencing, corrupting, or possessing another's will, which is a direct violation of the law the Divine Dragons have to not meddle with human lives, which Forseti also broke by possessing Lewyn. Naga didn't want that and was worried over it, but chose to. So take in the fact that Naga had no Falchion on her, didn't want to directly attack for some reason, or possibly couldn't, she instead opted to place her powers in a tome. What supports my theory is because she was forced to do this, that means that Naga's own life force was already crippled. Regardless of whether they look perfectly "healthy", that's all it is. LOOKS healthy. If the life force is already crippled or weakened, its an inside problem that will affect their lives later, but physically in human form, they'd look fine. But if she was already weakened, she can't produce a strong enough Falchion through her fang, because that would weaken as well. So she instead uses her power and goes through the tome that uses her powers. 

Add all these logical facts together. You cannot argue that these are all baseless. The moment you ask all these inconsistencies that are there, and the theory begins to make more and more sense. 

You cannot even claim that Falchion would be ineffective against Loptyr because by this point, its proven that Falchion is Naga's full power already inside the Falchion. 

Furthermore, the blade has not made any sort of significant change at all. Only the hilt. The hilt change explanation is set. The blade itself is stated to have remained the same. In that regard, the pictures you are referring to here are all by the work of the artist. That's just like how in Megaman, people were mentioning how Zero looks different in Megaman X than he does in Zero, and Keiji confirms that storywise, the bodies looks never changed, just the art design themselves. 

From literally every form of gameplay we have seen, the Gems have remained without any form of attachments. In that regard, the TCG holds little hold on the canonicity of the looks of the items. And "Hero of the Fire Emblems" brought the rest of the point on the spheres. As for what you said there:

Same thing as Falchion's blade looking different. Purely the design of the artwork in the end and not an actual storywise change. 

Finally, in the case of the Duma being a Shadow Dragon... is there really any point in debating over this? 

Oh, and also, back off on the claim of me being a pure Awakening fanboy. Seriously. Unless you have something better to say against my arguments, don't start slinging that bullshit with me. What I theorize and such have absolutely no reasons stemming from favoritism. I might like Awakening, but that has no form of control over theories I make. 

Ocular and Ocullus shoots a red beam, not purple. its distinctly different from Shadow Breath which is directly identified as Dark.

No, you are still grasping at straws with your argument Naga wouldn’t fight with the Falchion, yet would withhold Falchion from Duma and Mila if they were Earth Dragons.

No you are claims still the ones that are disrespectful to canon, Loptyr is weak, Naga’s tome doesn’t possess people, and Grima is the greatest villain according to you. Your ideas wouldn't make people like Awakening more, it'd just make people hate it if your stupid retcons were introduced.

Guy who says Naga's tome doesn't possess people when Kaga specifically said it does, is accusing people of ignoring canon, just wow dude..

As mentioned, Kaga compares Falchion to the Aura tome, both he and Forsetti says Book of Naga was Naga's only hope against Loptyr who you keep on downplaying in a moronic attempt to make Awakening look good. Yet again, you insist the Falchion was always as powerful or more then the Naga tome, again in the deluded belief it’ll make Grima look better. If Falchion always had Naga's full power it wouldn't be wieldable by anyone, if Naga could make a a weapon as powerful as the Naga tome usable by anyone, it would've been done. The fact that it requires show it again is more powerful then the Falchion.

If Naga could bring the Falchion, it would’ve been brought there, remember Echoes shows Naga can make another.

You again, go off the fanon that Naga was gravely wounded, yet again everything about the Miracle of Darna depicts Naga s very healthy and unwounded. Kaga literally describes as a lively young girl and all illustrations depict the same. Kaga doesn’t leave out details, if Naga was weakened, as continually push as fact, Kaga would have mentioned it.

The original Falchion didn’t need a mark unlike the Naga Tome as Kaga explained. Hence its significantly weaker despite your constant claims.

I can say Falchion  would be ineffective because everything specifically says the Naga Tome was Naga’s ONLY hope and that Falchion didn’t have anywhere near as much of Naga’s essence in it, this was why Naga needed to do a pact with Heim, while Anri had none and was able to use the Falchion due to his skill. The Falchion in Awakening is different as since the First Exalt, it now requires the wielder to have the Naga Mark.

Kaga saying

The TCG was done by Intelligent Systems themselves, they know what it looks like. Again items  and dragons change in appearance ALL the time in the series

Kaga saying the Spheres are made from the essences of Dragons along with the Shadowsphere sealing just like how Earth Dragons reduce attacks and weakness to the Lightsphere just like Earth Dragon's halving skill being countered by Divine Dragons is more proof that the spheres weren't all made by Divine Dragon power alone.

Your claim of Duma being a Shadow Dragon is just more of your wild conclusions with no evidence.

Naga looked just like Tiki, confirming the redesigns are again, just the results of different artists, just like the Spheres.

The Blade has changed entirely, just comparing the two. So yes, its design changed just like the Spheres simply due to a different artist.

Your ideas are disliked because they come across as consist of trashing on characters and concepts from games like FE4 for the sake of making Awakening better.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No, you are still grasping at straws with your argument Naga wouldn’t fight with the Falchion, yet would withhold Falchion from Duma and Mila if they were Earth Dragons.

That has nothing to do with the issue here, though. The case of us arguing on Duma and Mila being Earth Dragons have zero basis on this. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The TCG was done by Intelligent Systems themselves, they know what it looks like. Again items  and dragons change in appearance ALL the time in the series

They also made an Earth Dragon Manakete card, despite Medeus being the one and only Earth Dragon Manakete. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No you are claims still the ones that are disrespectful to canon, Loptyr is weak, Naga’s tome doesn’t possess people, and Grima is the greatest villain according to you. Your ideas wouldn't make people like Awakening more, it'd just make people hate it if your stupid retcons were introduced.

How does me insinuating that Naga being forced to make a tome of her power that it would rival Falchion be in any way insulting when the Book of Naga would still be as powerful as Falchion? Like, really? Naga being PHYSICALLY weaker does not in any way say that Loptyr is weak. In fact, it actually ENHANCES Loptyr's strength. Think about it. If Naga couldn't make another Falchion in her weakened state, or at least one that could hold as much power as the ones she did make, the fact that she thinks that nothing but the full might of a weapon that rivals Falchion that she would actually break her own clan's laws would actually show that she acknowledges/fears Loptyr's strength that much more.

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

As mentioned, Kaga compares Falchion to the Aura tome, both he and Forsetti says Book of Naga was Naga's only hope against Loptyr who you keep on downplaying in a moronic attempt to make Awakening look good. Yet again, you insist the Falchion was always as powerful or more then the Naga tome, again in the deluded belief it’ll make Grima look better. If Falchion always had Naga's full power it wouldn't be wieldable by anyone, if Naga could make a a weapon as powerful as the Naga tome usable by anyone, it would've been done. The fact that it requires show it again is more powerful then the Falchion.

The original Falchion didn’t need a mark unlike the Naga Tome as Kaga explained. Hence its significantly weaker despite your constant claims.

I can say Falchion  would be ineffective because everything specifically says the Naga Tome was Naga’s ONLY hope and that Falchion didn’t have anywhere near as much of Naga’s essence in it, this was why Naga needed to do a pact with Heim, while Anri had none and was able to use the Falchion due to his skill. The Falchion in Awakening is different as since the First Exalt, it now requires the wielder to have the Naga Mark.

You're blatantly ignoring canon once again. No matter how much you try to pull these up, but this point, through the new information given by Awakening, Falchion's full power holds the full power of Naga herself. You cannot create a weapon that holds your power and make it STRONGER than yourself. That's not how it works. Naga cannot make Book of Naga be stronger than Falchion because Falchion is as strong as she is. 

By denying the information we now have at this point and bringing up vague, outdated information, which said information does not give a genuine explanation on the power levels between Falchion and Book of Naga because we can only take as much stuff out of context, you are actually ignoring canon. 

You cannot even try to disprove the idea that Book of Naga is superior to Falchion because it's at this point canon that Falchion holds power rivaling Naga herself. 

And Falchion ISN'T wieldable by just anyone. Anri was the first one to use Falchion after the Dragon War ended, and afterwards, it was somehow tied to his bloodline, or anything that shared his blood, even without there being a descendent. If what you say is true, then Gotoh placed a spell that made it that Anri's relatives by blood can have the chance to wield it. Fast forward 2000 years later, and Lucina confirms that Falchion is very picky with its owners. 

Also, your constant use of saying "only hope" works only in the context of what Forseti says. Kaga never said that the Book of Naga was their only hope. Forseti did. Forseti isn't Naga. For all he knew, in his perspective, it was their only hope. Because Falchion was not even mentioned, Forseti either didn't know of its existence or Falchion was never with Naga when they went to Jugdral. You cannot assert your claim on the "only hope" case because in the context, it's not even fully justifiable. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

If Naga could bring the Falchion, it would’ve been brought there, remember Echoes shows Naga can make another.

You're missing the point again. Naga made a Falchion way before the Dragon war, yes. And after the Dragon war (or during), she made another one. But that Falchion was intended for humans to use if the need should ever arrive. I already explained that Naga is rather cautious and thus would not risk taking the weapon to another continent where something could go wrong. Because Falchion was not even mentioned, it's clearly obvious that Naga never actually brought it with her. Kaga never even mentioned it either. 

And while Naga can make more Falchion, the case that she didn't and was forced to create a tome with her powers is the issue here. WHY did she do it? This is what I mean by new information. If Falchion's power rivals Naga herself, then why would she be forced to make a tome of light instead? The only answer one can deduce from this is that because Naga didn't bring the one from Archanea with her by the fact that it was never mentioned, and she didn't just make another one, it stands to reason that she felt she couldn't make another one that would be as powerful. 

Logically speaking, a brutal war with the Earth Dragons had to have taken its toll on her. If that was the case, then she decided to use an alternate method. She didn't like this, but had to. By giving the Book of Naga, she managed to have a tome with all her powers, but now has the risk of it influencing or possessing the user. Falchion was the weapon that held her power but had no risk of her will taking the human's. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You again, go off the fanon that Naga was gravely wounded, yet again everything about the Miracle of Darna depicts Naga s very healthy and unwounded. Kaga literally describes as a lively young girl and all illustrations depict the same. Kaga doesn’t leave out details, if Naga was weakened, as continually push as fact, Kaga would have mentioned it.

Lively girl? Please direct me at that. I do not recall that being said. The game says that Naga took the form of a young maiden. Not a lively girl. And again, I just said it. Her life force being weakened has no play on her physical appearance, especially as a human. It's an inside issue that would affect her later on. 

If Naga wasn't weakened at all, then why didn't she create another Falchion? Again, by this point of information, it's confirmed that Falchion is as strong as Naga herself. Why would she make a tome of her powers instead of another Falchion if she was perfectly healthy? 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The Blade has changed entirely, just comparing the two. So yes, its design changed just like the Spheres simply due to a different artist.

Again, storywise, the blade has never changed. It's literally said it right there in their conversation. The blade of Falchion never once changed. Meaning there you can point out that this is merely different artstyles. 

However, the same cannot be said about the spheres because in all game related artwork, both past and in Awakening, there were no attachments to it. Furthermore, the game never hints attachments or decorations on the spheres either. Meaning that the TCG artwork showing that attachment holds no canon things and are purely for aesthetic purposes.

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Kaga saying the Spheres are made from the essences of Dragons along with the Shadowsphere sealing just like how Earth Dragons reduce attacks and weakness to the Lightsphere just like Earth Dragon's halving skill being countered by Divine Dragons is more proof that the spheres weren't all made by Divine Dragon power alone.

The Five Gemstones were never confirmed on their origins. However, the fact they belong to the Divine Dragons, goes to Naga's Shield of Seals, and were implied to have been created alongside the Shield, would indicate that all the Gemstones were created by Divine Dragons. There were no proof saying that they belonged to anyone but the Divine Dragons. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by omegaxis1

[Emperor Hardin]

27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That has nothing to do with the issue here, though. The case of us arguing on Duma and Mila being Earth Dragons have zero basis on this. 

They also made an Earth Dragon Manakete card, despite Medeus being the one and only Earth Dragon Manakete. 

How does me insinuating that Naga being forced to make a tome of her power that it would rival Falchion be in any way insulting when the Book of Naga would still be as powerful as Falchion? Like, really? Naga being PHYSICALLY weaker does not in any way say that Loptyr is weak. In fact, it actually ENHANCES Loptyr's strength. Think about it. If Naga couldn't make another Falchion in her weakened state, or at least one that could hold as much power as the ones she did make, the fact that she thinks that nothing but the full might of a weapon that rivals Falchion that she would actually break her own clan's laws would actually show that she acknowledges/fears Loptyr's strength that much more.

You're blatantly ignoring canon once again. No matter how much you try to pull these up, but this point, through the new information given by Awakening, Falchion's full power holds the full power of Naga herself. You cannot create a weapon that holds your power and make it STRONGER than yourself. That's not how it works. Naga cannot make Book of Naga be stronger than Falchion because Falchion is as strong as she is. 

By denying the information we now have at this point and bringing up vague, outdated information, which said information does not give a genuine explanation on the power levels between Falchion and Book of Naga because we can only take as much stuff out of context, you are actually ignoring canon. 

You cannot even try to disprove the idea that Book of Naga is superior to Falchion because it's at this point canon that Falchion holds power rivaling Naga herself. 

And Falchion ISN'T wieldable by just anyone. Anri was the first one to use Falchion after the Dragon War ended, and afterwards, it was somehow tied to his bloodline, or anything that shared his blood, even without there being a descendent. If what you say is true, then Gotoh placed a spell that made it that Anri's relatives by blood can have the chance to wield it. Fast forward 2000 years later, and Lucina confirms that Falchion is very picky with its owners. 

Also, your constant use of saying "only hope" works only in the context of what Forseti says. Kaga never said that the Book of Naga was their only hope. Forseti did. Forseti isn't Naga. For all he knew, in his perspective, it was their only hope. Because Falchion was not even mentioned, Forseti either didn't know of its existence or Falchion was never with Naga when they went to Jugdral. You cannot assert your claim on the "only hope" case because in the context, it's not even fully justifiable. 

You're missing the point again. Naga made a Falchion way before the Dragon war, yes. And after the Dragon war (or during), she made another one. But that Falchion was intended for humans to use if the need should ever arrive. I already explained that Naga is rather cautious and thus would not risk taking the weapon to another continent where something could go wrong. Because Falchion was not even mentioned, it's clearly obvious that Naga never actually brought it with her. Kaga never even mentioned it either. 

And while Naga can make more Falchion, the case that she didn't and was forced to create a tome with her powers is the issue here. WHY did she do it? This is what I mean by new information. If Falchion's power rivals Naga herself, then why would she be forced to make a tome of light instead? The only answer one can deduce from this is that because Naga didn't bring the one from Archanea with her by the fact that it was never mentioned, and she didn't just make another one, it stands to reason that she felt she couldn't make another one that would be as powerful. 

Logically speaking, a brutal war with the Earth Dragons had to have taken its toll on her. If that was the case, then she decided to use an alternate method. She didn't like this, but had to. By giving the Book of Naga, she managed to have a tome with all her powers, but now has the risk of it influencing or possessing the user. Falchion was the weapon that held her power but had no risk of her will taking the human's. 

Lively girl? Please direct me at that. I do not recall that being said. The game says that Naga took the form of a young maiden. Not a lively girl. And again, I just said it. Her life force being weakened has no play on her physical appearance, especially as a human. It's an inside issue that would affect her later on. 

If Naga wasn't weakened at all, then why didn't she create another Falchion? Again, by this point of information, it's confirmed that Falchion is as strong as Naga herself. Why would she make a tome of her powers instead of another Falchion if she was perfectly healthy? 

Again, storywise, the blade has never changed. It's literally said it right there in their conversation. The blade of Falchion never once changed. Meaning there you can point out that this is merely different artstyles. 

However, the same cannot be said about the spheres because in all game related artwork, both past and in Awakening, there were no attachments to it. Furthermore, the game never hints attachments or decorations on the spheres either. Meaning that the TCG artwork showing that attachment holds no canon things and are purely for aesthetic purposes.

The Five Gemstones were never confirmed on their origins. However, the fact they belong to the Divine Dragons, goes to Naga's Shield of Seals, and were implied to have been created alongside the Shield, would indicate that all the Gemstones were created by Divine Dragons. There were no proof saying that they belonged to anyone but the Divine Dragons. 

No you are blatantly ignoring canon, repeatedly, which everyone has already pointed out. You can't even remember Occulus being red and not purple.

There was an Earth Dragon Manakete, Medeus, remember? If Kaga didn't intend the Shadowsphere to have a Shadow Dragon ornament on it, he wouldn't have allowed it. This along with its powers all show its not entirely Divine Dragon in origin. You keep ignoring that all the Dragon tribe were once a big empire.

Again, everyone has stated you've denied information said by Kaga himself, repeatedly. Kaga says it, game says it, its true. This is in addition to making up information like oculus being dark magic.

Its canon the Awakening Falchion which requires a mark is equal to the Awakening's Naga power, everything says the Naga tome was at the time, the strongest weapon created by Naga at the time.

No, Falchion is wieldable by anyone in canon, Marth is the suitable heir because of tradition. This is why Jiol and Gharnef both coveted the Falchion. Its not blood locked.

Kaga specifically says weapons with a dragon essence require pacts and for Naga to create a weapon as powerful as the Naga tome was a very worrying decision, but was done as the only way to fight Loptyr. He describes the Falchion as not requiring a Dragon pact like Aura.

Naga didn't because there were plenty of Divine Dragon allies in the war and Naga's power was conserved, while with Loptyr, most of Naga's power was spent on the tome and battling Loptyr.

Everything indicates we're supposed to believe what Forseti says about Naga. Given his love for humans, he'd definitely know about Falchion without a doubt, the idea that he'd be in the dark about is pretty much impossible.

None of your claims are remotely justifiable and just go off random crap you pass as canon, you don't even check things like what Shadow Dragons or the colors of spells. 

Again, you are missing the point. Everything says the Naga tome was unprecedented in how much of Naga's essence was in it, you are just ignoring for the sake of belittling FE4 to make Grima appear as the greatest villain ever.

Kaga isn't one to leave details out, he describes Naga as young and the picture shows her as healthy. He would not leave details out as you constantly claim in a desperate attempt to save face. We see Manakete forms are connected to their dragon form, Bantu is old, so he appears Old and unhealthy as a manakete. If Naga was unhealthy, Kaga and the picture would depict that.

Again its confirmed the Falchion After the time of the First Exalt is as strong as the Naga of that time, not was always that powerful. Seriously, can you even read?

You could just as easily say the story said there was no hole in the Falchion so the Falchion of Awakening is non canon. At this point, you are relying on the weirdest crap to justify your stupid claims.

We've already seen the miracle of Darna had non Divine Dragons and the spheres containing powers outside of jurisdiction of Divine Dragons as well as very strong indications of other dragons contributing. The Shadowsphere and its relationship with the Lightsphere is an obvious parallel with Divine and Shadow Dragons. You are in serious denial at this point.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No you are blatantly ignoring canon, repeatedly, which everyone has already pointed out. You can't even remember Occulus being red and not purple.

Again, everyone has stated you've denied information said by Kaga himself, repeatedly. Kaga says it, game says it, its true. This is in addition to making up information like oculus being dark magic.

You keep insisting that I'm ignoring canon, but right now, I've been proving that it's actually YOU that's ignoring canon. You are still denying any and all information that Falchion is inferior to Book of Naga, despite how its CONFIRMED that Falchion rivals Naga's power. 

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Its canon the Awakening Falchion which requires a mark is equal to the Awakening's Naga power, everything says the Naga tome was at the time, the strongest weapon created by Naga at the time.

Who said it? Kaga? He didn't say that Book of Naga was the strongest weapon. I just pointed out that your "only hope" claim is only in the context of Forseti's point of view and thus cannot be considered to be completely true. 

Also, Awakening Naga is by no means inferior. Awakening Naga is incredibly powerful and can even defy the taboo and allow many humans to travel through time. Tiki, who we all agree has power rivaling if not surpassing Naga's own, took her place and unlocked Falchion's power the same way. In both these cases, Awakening Naga is just as powerful as the original Naga. So if Falchion that the original Naga created rivals the power of Naga, then it rivals Naga, and there's no counterargument to that.

11 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No, Falchion is wieldable by anyone in canon, Marth is the suitable heir because of tradition. This is why Jiol and Gharnef both coveted the Falchion. Its not blood locked.

Actually no. Falchion was never once wielded by anyone BUT Marth. In fact, here's Malledus saying:

Quote

You are Anri’s last male descendant, the only one who can wield Falchion. You must find the blade that was taken, and put an end to Doluna and its misguided Manakete rulers.

So this still would indicate that Falchion is tied to Anri's bloodline. 

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Kaga specifically says weapons with a dragon essence require pacts and for Naga to create a weapon as powerful as the Naga tome was a very worrying decision, but was done as the only way to fight Loptyr. He describes the Falchion as not requiring a Dragon pact like Aura.

None of your claims are remotely justifiable and just go off random crap you pass as canon, you don't even check things like what Shadow Dragons or the colors of spells. 

Again, you are missing the point. Everything says the Naga tome was unprecedented in how much of Naga's essence was in it, you are just ignoring for the sake of belittling FE4 to make Grima appear as the greatest villain ever.

Oh wow, a slight mistake on a little color and you love to grasp on that as everything. 

You're adding words to Kaga's statements. Yes, Falchion is made in an almost similar fashion, using Dragonstones. And he did say that when making the tome of light, Naga felt it was worrying. But Kaga never ONCE mentioned that Book of Naga was the strongest of all the weapons in the interview, nor did he say that it was stronger than Falchion. 

And now with the information on Awakening, Falchion's might rivals Naga's own. So what does that say about Book of Naga? At best, it only rivals Naga's power as well, and thus it would rival Falchion. 

Unless you can make a solid argument that Book of Naga is superior to Falchion, which you CANNOT because Awakening has just confirmed Falchion's might = Naga's power, your arguments have absolutely no strength behind them anymore. And if you cannot disprove the power issues anymore, you cannot also continue the argument on Naga's stand on the case of Loptyr, because you'd need to explain why Naga didn't just make another Falchion and instead opted to make a tome. 

22 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Again its confirmed the Falchion After the time of the First Exalt is as strong as the Naga of that time, not was always that powerful. Seriously, can you even read?

Please direct me to it. Because it was never once stated that Falchion only grew that strong after the First Exalt. 

25 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You could just as easily say the story said there was no hole in the Falchion so the Falchion of Awakening is non canon. Your relying on the weirdest crap to justify your stupid claims.

No, look again. The hole only goes up to that point on the case of the hilt. The hilt was structured on that Falchion to have a teardrop shaped hope just to resemble the Brand of the Exalt. The blade is merely was placed there, and you can see that the designs are similar to one another. So no, my argument still stands on the case of the blade. No matter how you dish it, storywise, the blade never changed. It was directly mentioned. You cannot use the same theory against me because yours lacks the evidence to support it here. 

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

We've already seen the miracle of Darna had non Divine Dragons and the spheres containing powers outside of jurisdiction of Divine Dragons as well as very strong indications of other dragons contributing. You are in serious denial at this point.

Miracle of Darna and the five Gemstones have no relations to one another. Do not mix them into this just to justify your claims. 

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

You keep insisting that I'm ignoring canon, but right now, I've been proving that it's actually YOU that's ignoring canon. You are still denying any and all information that Falchion is inferior to Book of Naga, despite how its CONFIRMED that Falchion rivals Naga's power. 

Who said it? Kaga? He didn't say that Book of Naga was the strongest weapon. I just pointed out that your "only hope" claim is only in the context of Forseti's point of view and thus cannot be considered to be completely true. 

Also, Awakening Naga is by no means inferior. Awakening Naga is incredibly powerful and can even defy the taboo and allow many humans to travel through time. Tiki, who we all agree has power rivaling if not surpassing Naga's own, took her place and unlocked Falchion's power the same way. In both these cases, Awakening Naga is just as powerful as the original Naga. So if Falchion that the original Naga created rivals the power of Naga, then it rivals Naga, and there's no counterargument to that.

Actually no. Falchion was never once wielded by anyone BUT Marth. In fact, here's Malledus saying:

So this still would indicate that Falchion is tied to Anri's bloodline. 

Oh wow, a slight mistake on a little color and you love to grasp on that as everything. 

You're adding words to Kaga's statements. Yes, Falchion is made in an almost similar fashion, using Dragonstones. And he did say that when making the tome of light, Naga felt it was worrying. But Kaga never ONCE mentioned that Book of Naga was the strongest of all the weapons in the interview, nor did he say that it was stronger than Falchion. 

And now with the information on Awakening, Falchion's might rivals Naga's own. So what does that say about Book of Naga? At best, it only rivals Naga's power as well, and thus it would rival Falchion. 

Unless you can make a solid argument that Book of Naga is superior to Falchion, which you CANNOT because Awakening has just confirmed Falchion's might = Naga's power, your arguments have absolutely no strength behind them anymore. And if you cannot disprove the power issues anymore, you cannot also continue the argument on Naga's stand on the case of Loptyr, because you'd need to explain why Naga didn't just make another Falchion and instead opted to make a tome. 

Please direct me to it. Because it was never once stated that Falchion only grew that strong after the First Exalt. 

No, look again. The hole only goes up to that point on the case of the hilt. The hilt was structured on that Falchion to have a teardrop shaped hope just to resemble the Brand of the Exalt. The blade is merely was placed there, and you can see that the designs are similar to one another. So no, my argument still stands on the case of the blade. No matter how you dish it, storywise, the blade never changed. It was directly mentioned. You cannot use the same theory against me because yours lacks the evidence to support it here. 

Miracle of Darna and the five Gemstones have no relations to one another. Do not mix them into this just to justify your claims. 

Once again its confirmed, the Falchion after the First Exalt contains all of the Naga of Awakening's power. Nothing is said about the pre blood lock. You on the other hand keeping clinging like a shipwrecked man to a rock on fanon like Naga being weakened in The miracle of Narna and Naga's tome not possessing people. Many of your fanon ideas have already been outright disproven.

Forseti everything shows, would know of Falchion, Kaga says created such a powerful weapon with all of Naga's power but it was a worrying decision. You're pretty much going "LALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" when canon goes ways you don't want it.

Awakening Naga being stronger doesn't' change that the Naga Tome was the strongest created by the Naga of that time.

Marth is the only one suitable to wield the Falchion because its his heirloom, it is not blood locked which is why so many coveted it and Anri a commoner was able to use it without any mark. 

Gharnef is holding the Falchion in his possession and reveals his plans to overthrow Medeus, do the math, there's a reason Gharnef is keeping the Falchion. Its his balance against Medeus.

No claiming Occular was confirmed as Dark Magic as you did is you not bothering to research a game you never played. As are your many other disproved claims like Duma being a Shadow Dragon, Shadow Dragons never existing before the War of Heroes, or Naga's tome not possessing people.

The most powerful weapons are related to Blood pacts, Falchion has no blood pact, do the math.

Again, that was after Naga's pact with the First Exalt, over  a thousand years after Marth. 

Once again, I refer to the above which you keep ignoring. Everything says at the time of Miracle of Darna, Naga tome was the most powerful created by Naga. 

Falchion was never related to any blood lock before the Exalt, the game specifically states Exalt Blood pact'd with Naga. You are in denial if you think the Mark of the Exalt existed in the time of the miracle of Darna.

No the blade is different as well and the hole goes all the way into the blade.

Your theory that the Spheres artwork in the TCG is noncanon is the one that holds no water. This is a serious where the entire designs of Wyverns in the same universe change completely in a game set in the same time frame.

Miracle of Darna shows the members of the Dragon tribes were indeed working in relation. Your fanon that is it canon that all the Spheres are empowered by Divine Dragons is bullcrap.

[Baldrick]

It all seems to hinge on whether Marth's Falchion was Exalted. If it was, wouldn't Marth be the first Exalt, since he came before whoever defeated Grima? When Lucina gives her name as Marth, he's described as a "heroic king".

Edited May 24, 2017 by Baldrick

[Shotguner159]

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No claiming Occular was confirmed as Dark Magic as you did is you not bothering to research a game you never played. 

Oculus and Ocular are described as Fell Dragon magic in their item description, at least in the English version. That's pretty much dark magic.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

It all seems to hinge on whether Marth's Falchion was Exalted. If it was, wouldn't Marth be the first Exalt, since he came before whoever defeated Grima? When Lucina gives her name as Marth, he's described as a "heroic king".

The term Exalted has nothing to do with the Exalt; it's induced by the localization because, to be blunt, 8-4 is shit and they wanted to make an immature pun about "Exalt". Either that, or they're implying exalts are named after the sword, but both Alm and Seliph are called exalts- meaning the first Exalt wasn't the first ever Exalt by any means at all in truth.

It is, Indeed, called the Exalted Falchion by Echoes's localization, and it had the same term in Japanese.

 

did anyone stop to consider maybe this has nothing at all to do with power and maybe more to do with the Naga tome being a much more suitable tool to deal with a dragon spirit stuck in a black magic tool than a sword?

 

and the "Fell Dragon" magic is literally called EVIL dragon magic in the Japanese version; Fell Dragon is the localized form of evil dragon from Awakening onward

Edited May 24, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[VincentASM]

Man, at this point, I feel like we should've had a new thread 10 pages ago or something : P

Anyway, to be honest, I don't really know what to think considering the Falchion and Book of Naga. I mean, I would like to think they're both similar in power. Yet the Book of Naga in Genealogy, gameplay-wise is literally bonkers.

Story-wise, they have been making a big deal of Falchion being pretty dang strong too and the embodiment of Naga's will and/or power (in Awakening and Echoes). Could be a retcon though.

Also, I should clarify a few bits.

"Fell Dragon Magic" I feel is really misleading. In the Japanese version, it was Fell God magic. I guess they wanted to emphasise Duma being a dragon and perhaps connecting him to Grima? Either way, "Fell Dragon" is not actually a unique title and can be attributed to any vile or corrupt dragon, it seems. In fact, I think Medeus may have been called one...

As mentioned, "Exalted" and "Exalt" are separate terms although they sound the same in English. One represents a Divine Blade and the other represents a Holy King. In Awakening's English version, they linked the two so it was more iconic. Also, the "First Exalt" literally just means the first Exalt of Ylisse; aka the founder. So don't read into it too much ^^

[omegaxis1]

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Once again its confirmed, the Falchion after the First Exalt contains all of the Naga of Awakening's power. Nothing is said about the pre blood lock. You on the other hand keeping clinging like a shipwrecked man to a rock on fanon like Naga being weakened in The miracle of Narna and Naga's tome not possessing people. Many of your fanon ideas have already been outright disproven.

Forseti everything shows, would know of Falchion, Kaga says created such a powerful weapon with all of Naga's power but it was a worrying decision. You're pretty much going "LALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" when canon goes ways you don't want it.

Awakening Naga being stronger doesn't' change that the Naga Tome was the strongest created by the Naga of that time.

Marth is the only one suitable to wield the Falchion because its his heirloom, it is not blood locked which is why so many coveted it and Anri a commoner was able to use it without any mark. 

Gharnef is holding the Falchion in his possession and reveals his plans to overthrow Medeus, do the math, there's a reason Gharnef is keeping the Falchion. Its his balance against Medeus.

No claiming Occular was confirmed as Dark Magic as you did is you not bothering to research a game you never played. As are your many other disproved claims like Duma being a Shadow Dragon, Shadow Dragons never existing before the War of Heroes, or Naga's tome not possessing people.

The most powerful weapons are related to Blood pacts, Falchion has no blood pact, do the math.

Again, that was after Naga's pact with the First Exalt, over  a thousand years after Marth. 

Once again, I refer to the above which you keep ignoring. Everything says at the time of Miracle of Darna, Naga tome was the most powerful created by Naga. 

Falchion was never related to any blood lock before the Exalt, the game specifically states Exalt Blood pact'd with Naga. You are in denial if you think the Mark of the Exalt existed in the time of the miracle of Darna.

No the blade is different as well and the hole goes all the way into the blade.

Your theory that the Spheres artwork in the TCG is noncanon is the one that holds no water. This is a serious where the entire designs of Wyverns in the same universe change completely in a game set in the same time frame.

Miracle of Darna shows the members of the Dragon tribes were indeed working in relation. Your fanon that is it canon that all the Spheres are empowered by Divine Dragons is bullcrap.

And all of a sudden, there are more and more people that are starting to slowly back me up. People aren't so completely against my logic now, are they Hardin? 

And I'm just gonna correct you on something. The power of the new blood pact and such was to give Falchion the power to SEAL Grima in conjunction with the power of the Shield of Seals. Grima was someone that Naga admitted that she cannot kill, despite all her powers. Sealing it was the only option. 

Furthermore, gameplay wise, I just pointed out how Lucina with her Falchion cannot kill Duma but Marth with his Falchion could. If Falchion's power made that big of a jump 1000 years later, then even the Falchion Lucina held should have done the job. But it didn't. That's because the overall strength of the blade of Falchion was actually mostly sealed after the Scion when the shield was broken up. Hence why I theorized that Falchion's power was sealed because its ability to seal worked in reverse when the shield was broken up. 

You cannot make an argument that Falchion's power made a jump because of this blood pact, because Falchion's "true might" is still the same as it was when Marth wielded it. You are denying canon because you are insisting on outdated information that aren't able to make a strong enough case anymore. 

Again, there are absolutely NO mention of Book of Naga being the most powerful weapon in general. Out of all the Divine Weapons in the Miracle of Darna, yes it is the strongest. But is it stronger than Falchion? No, there was no direct statement that it was. You are clinging to so many vague and outdated information that you're blatantly ignoring all of the facts that Awakening has now given us. No matter how much you try to deny it, you're ignoring canon.

Once again, the spheres artwork in the game itself and the TCG hold no water. Storywise, Falchion's blade NEVER changed. It's directly mentioned. The spheres had NO mention of the attachments, nor did the in gameplay pictures show any sign that there were any attachments. And because no one also mentions that dragons look different now than before, the same case is indicating that its just the design. However, the spheres are always shown and indicated to be just that, spheres. No special or unique attachments to them.

Wrong, once again. Miracle of Darna happened after the Dragon War. The Shield of Seals and the Spheres were made for the purpose of ultimately holding the seal on the Earth Dragons. The Divine Dragons were the only ones that participated in that war and thus they would see it through, and that would mean that the Spheres were forged by Divine Dragons themselves. There are no indication that Fire, Ice, Mage, nor even Medeus was involved in making the spheres. Because they are mentioned and talked about only by Divine Dragons, it stands to reason that only Divine Dragons held an involvement in making them. But the case of the Miracle of Darna is a separate incident altogether. This was Naga acting and choosing 11 other Dragons to come alongside her. This one has more reason to understand that other Dragons could get involved because it was one Earth Dragon possessing a human and the entire war was already done now, so the other Dragons could potentially get involved here. 

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

did anyone stop to consider maybe this has nothing at all to do with power and maybe more to do with the Naga tome being a much more suitable tool to deal with a dragon spirit stuck in a black magic tool than a sword?

Why though? Falchion's power and might should have also done the job too, right? If the power in Falchion and the Book of Naga can at best be equals to one another, then Falchion should have still gotten the job. And it isn't like Book of Naga kills Loptyr himself, just his vessel. Falchion could have easily done the same as well. 

[Salamud]

14 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Don't forget Loptyr has the whole zombie deadlord thing going for him too.

Loptyr never demonstrated he or his minions had any control over undead beyond the Deadlords.

[omegaxis1]

4 hours ago, Salamud said:

Loptyr never demonstrated he or his minions had any control over undead beyond the Deadlords.

I think the Deadlords weren't actually Loptyr's powers, but rather the case of the thanatophages. If the Deadlords that Grima uses or rather the Grimleal used are the same case or the same beings in different bodies, it stands to reason that the thanatophages came from the Loptyr Sect. They likely created them after many dark experiments. Afterwards, Forneus likely got his hands on these thanatophages, and after Grima was created, Grima might have absorbed the thanatophages and incorporated them into his power, and thus he is able to perform necromancy and unleash the dead as his minions. 

[Salamud]

Mila being sealed away triggered the undead walking. Considering that and Mila's overall portrayal, I'd just say Divine Dragons have an affinity towards life which can be corrupted into an undead army. As demonstrated by Duma (Corrupted Divine Dragon), Grima (construct made with Divine Dragon Blood), and their followers.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Salamud

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Salamud said:

Mila being sealed away triggered the undead walking. Considering that and Mila's overall portrayal, I'd just say Divine Dragons have an affinity towards life that can be corrupted into an undead army. As demonstrated by Duma (Corrupted Divine Dragon), Grima (construct made with Divine Dragon Blood), and their followers.

Interesting thing about Grima actually. I found this info on the wiki, so I can't say for certain yet, but it is said that Naga's final resting place was at Thabes.

Forneus, the demon alchemist, used Divine Dragon blood and was experimenting in Thabes.

This would mean that the Divine Dragon blood, and possibly Naga's actual dead body, was used in the creation of Grima. This would mean that Grima is in fact a demonic undead creature of Naga herself. Naga and Tiki both pointed out that Grima/Robin has power that is very similar to their own. 

However, I cannot say if the info on Naga's final resting place being Thabes is true. I would have to try and look up the source.

[Emperor Hardin]

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And all of a sudden, there are more and more people that are starting to slowly back me up. People aren't so completely against my logic now, are they Hardin? 

And I'm just gonna correct you on something. The power of the new blood pact and such was to give Falchion the power to SEAL Grima in conjunction with the power of the Shield of Seals. Grima was someone that Naga admitted that she cannot kill, despite all her powers. Sealing it was the only option. 

Furthermore, gameplay wise, I just pointed out how Lucina with her Falchion cannot kill Duma but Marth with his Falchion could. If Falchion's power made that big of a jump 1000 years later, then even the Falchion Lucina held should have done the job. But it didn't. That's because the overall strength of the blade of Falchion was actually mostly sealed after the Scion when the shield was broken up. Hence why I theorized that Falchion's power was sealed because its ability to seal worked in reverse when the shield was broken up. 

You cannot make an argument that Falchion's power made a jump because of this blood pact, because Falchion's "true might" is still the same as it was when Marth wielded it. You are denying canon because you are insisting on outdated information that aren't able to make a strong enough case anymore. 

Again, there are absolutely NO mention of Book of Naga being the most powerful weapon in general. Out of all the Divine Weapons in the Miracle of Darna, yes it is the strongest. But is it stronger than Falchion? No, there was no direct statement that it was. You are clinging to so many vague and outdated information that you're blatantly ignoring all of the facts that Awakening has now given us. No matter how much you try to deny it, you're ignoring canon.

Once again, the spheres artwork in the game itself and the TCG hold no water. Storywise, Falchion's blade NEVER changed. It's directly mentioned. The spheres had NO mention of the attachments, nor did the in gameplay pictures show any sign that there were any attachments. And because no one also mentions that dragons look different now than before, the same case is indicating that its just the design. However, the spheres are always shown and indicated to be just that, spheres. No special or unique attachments to them.

Wrong, once again. Miracle of Darna happened after the Dragon War. The Shield of Seals and the Spheres were made for the purpose of ultimately holding the seal on the Earth Dragons. The Divine Dragons were the only ones that participated in that war and thus they would see it through, and that would mean that the Spheres were forged by Divine Dragons themselves. There are no indication that Fire, Ice, Mage, nor even Medeus was involved in making the spheres. Because they are mentioned and talked about only by Divine Dragons, it stands to reason that only Divine Dragons held an involvement in making them. But the case of the Miracle of Darna is a separate incident altogether. This was Naga acting and choosing 11 other Dragons to come alongside her. This one has more reason to understand that other Dragons could get involved because it was one Earth Dragon possessing a human and the entire war was already done now, so the other Dragons could potentially get involved here. 

No, the majority of people still disagree with your wild claims about the Naga Tome, Shadow Dragons, Loptyr and Falchion. You also keep ignoring my points whenever you’re proven wrong which happens a lot.

The Blood pact never existed before the Exalt, beforehand the Falchion could be wielded by anyone. This was why Anri, a peasant with no lineage of note, was able to wield it like a master.

As mentioned, Grima being sealed until he was revived by someone with enough of his mark, is literally exactly the same as Loptyr. Just like Loptyr, Grima couldn’t revive until someone with enough of his mark came along, in this case it being Future Robin. You’re pretty much ignoring everything for your fanon that Grima is the greatest villain ever and FE4 sucks.

No, its never stated or hinted Falchion was always strong. Its never stated Marth’s Falchion held Naga’s full might. You are denying canon repeatedly which people have repeatedly pointed out. Grima is the strongest villain 

Everything has stated the Book of Naga was the only hope against Loptyr, there is a reason Naga didn’t bring or make another Falchion. Again, Forseti would know about, if it could defeat Loptyr, he wouldn't have stated the Naga tome was their only hope.

The appearance of the Spheres is never mention and the artwork is official. Keep in kind, they had more time to draw the spheres as they always intended  in the card game, while the game art was just a palette swap to save data same with all the palette swapped bosses, soldiers, and villagers. You cannot say its not canon. 

I know it happened during the war, and no, it is never stated Divine Dragons were the only ones who participated just they took the most casualties. You are delusional if you think the Shadowsphere came solely from the essence of a Divine Dragon. Why would Human loving dragons like Forseti sit it out, again you just ignore everything for your idiotic fanon that Divine Dragons have the power of all Dragons. You are wrong just as you were wrong about Naga's tome not possessing people, Shadow Dragons never existing before Medeus, Duma being a Shadow Dragon, Grima being made from a Earth Dragon corpse, and all the other stupid fanon you've been pushing.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No, the majority of people still disagree with your wild claims about the Naga Tome, Shadow Dragons, Loptyr and Falchion. You also keep ignoring my points whenever you’re proven wrong which happens a lot.

The Blood pact never existed before the Exalt, beforehand the Falchion could be wielded by anyone. This was why Anri, a peasant with no lineage of note, was able to wield it like a master.

As mentioned, Grima being sealed until he was revived by someone with enough of his mark, is literally exactly the same as Loptyr. Just like Loptyr, Grima couldn’t revive until someone with enough of his mark came along, in this case it being Future Robin. You’re pretty much ignoring everything for your fanon that Grima is the greatest villain ever and FE4 sucks.

No, its never stated or hinted Falchion was always strong. Its never stated Marth’s Falchion held Naga’s full might. You are denying canon repeatedly which people have repeatedly pointed out. Grima is the strongest villain 

Everything has stated the Book of Naga was the only hope against Loptyr, there is a reason Naga didn’t bring or make another Falchion.

The appearance of the Spheres is never mention and the artwork is official. Keep in kind, they had more time to draw the spheres as they always intended  in the card game, while the game art was just a palette swap to save data same with all the palette swapped bosses, soldiers, and villagers. You cannot say its not canon. 

I know it happened during the war, and no, it is never stated Divine Dragons were the only ones who participated just they took the most casualties. You are delusional if you think the Shadowsphere came solely from the essence of a Divine Dragon. Why would Human loving dragons like Forseti sit it out, again you just ignore everything for your idiotic fanon that Divine Dragons have the power of all Dragons. You are wrong just as you were wrong about Naga's tome not possessing people, Shadow Dragons never existing before Medeus, Duma being a Shadow Dragon, Grima being made from a Earth Dragon corpse, and all the other stupid fanon you've been pushing.

The more you argue... the more I'm beginning to realize... The REAL fanboy here is you. You're so much into denial that you want to worship FE4 like its the greatest game that ever existed in Fire Emblem and anything that you find to be remotely insulting is some kind of blasphemy. Stop deluding yourself.

And even if there are a lot against me, there are slowly being some that are coming around to my theories, or at the very least are arguing against your logic which benefits my side of the argument. Regardless, not everyone is against me here, which is good progress I might add. 

I'm not worshipping Grima nor Awakening. I'm using logic and information that we have been given. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that you're blatantly ignoring the canon information and trying to give some BS mention that the power is not the same despite all information saying that it is, you're thoroughly ignoring the canon.

If anyone doesn't want to admit that he's wrong, its you. You cannot argue against the claim that Falchion is just as powerful, so you want to insist that Falchion in Mystery is not the same as Awakening, and trying to use artworks that I already explained the case for. 

Okay, seriously, this is getting annoying. How many times do I have to explain to you? If you actually paid any attention, in the final fight with Duma, if a Marth amiibo is scanned, Marth can actually deal the final blow to Duma and kill him. Why? Because Marth uses Falchion as well, the weapon as powerful as Valentia's Falchion storywise, and thus has the power to kill Duma. But when Lucina uses her Falchion, her attacks are sealed. Why? Because her Falchion doesn't hold the true power that it originally had, because she performed an incomplete Awakening. 

Furthermore, Naga literally says "With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might." The words "true might" is literally saying that she's merely unlocking the full power of Falchion because Falchion's original might is for some reason sealed. Marth always wielded the full power of Falchion, but unlike the Exalted Falchion that can be used to seal Grima away, the Falchion Marth uses didn't have that function. This is likely the reason that some new blood pact was made and how Falchion is now in relation with the Shield of Seals, it was to put the power of sealing by the Shield of Seals into Falchion so that Grima can be put to sleep. But with the Shield broken up of its Gemstones, Falchion was also affected by it and thus lost not just the sealing function, but a lot of its original power. So regardless of the case, Falchion's full might has always existed to be rivaling Naga's power. The fact that you're trying to go around this by some issue regarding the pact but blatantly ignoring what Naga herself said in her own words, you are going against canon.

AGAIN with this "only hope". What did I just say? All this "only hope" business is merely from the words of Forseti. This wasn't Naga saying it, was it? No, it was Forseti. How can we assume that what he says is purely factual? It was never stated by Kaga that Book of Naga is stronger than Falchion. No matter how many outdated information you pull out, there is no single confirmation of the case. And now by Awakening's story, Falchion's true might/full power rivals Naga herself. Which means that at best, the Book of Naga can only be as strong or weaker than Falchion. That's it. There's zero reason to even continue arguing that point.

The TCG is NEVER regarded into the canon side of the game. Not ONCE. Because if everything in the TCG was canon, then that Earth Dragon Manakete shouldn't have existed because we know that Medeus is the ONLY Manakete of the Earth Dragon tribe. So by all means, the TCG is not in any way canon to the actual gameplay. Stop deluding yourself by saying that a TCG artwork is the same as official artwork given in the game. 

Actually, it was. It was stated by Xane in Mystery of the Emblem that Naga commanded her tribe to fight for the humans. That means ONLY Divine Dragons participated in that war. 

"Narga, the king of the Divine Dragons, the strongest of all dragons, commanded his tribe to begin a battle to protect the humans."

Maybe Forseti did participate in that war. I dunno. He never made any kind of mention of the war, because that was a different story entirely, the same reason why Xane never mentioned Loptyr. And once again, no Fire, Mage, Flying, Ice dragon showed any kind of connection to the spheres. Medeus never showed any connection either, and the rest of his tribe went mad. So by all reason and logic, the 5 Gemstones were created by Divine Dragons. So once again, you're wrong and you cannot seem to accept that I'm right or have a good point. 

No matter how you look at it, through the new information that comes out,

[Emperor Hardin]

37 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The more you argue... the more I'm beginning to realize... The REAL fanboy here is you. You're so much into denial that you want to worship FE4 like its the greatest game that ever existed in Fire Emblem and anything that you find to be remotely insulting is some kind of blasphemy. Stop deluding yourself.

And even if there are a lot against me, there are slowly being some that are coming around to my theories, or at the very least are arguing against your logic which benefits my side of the argument. Regardless, not everyone is against me here, which is good progress I might add. 

I'm not worshipping Grima nor Awakening. I'm using logic and information that we have been given. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that you're blatantly ignoring the canon information and trying to give some BS mention that the power is not the same despite all information saying that it is, you're thoroughly ignoring the canon.

If anyone doesn't want to admit that he's wrong, its you. You cannot argue against the claim that Falchion is just as powerful, so you want to insist that Falchion in Mystery is not the same as Awakening, and trying to use artworks that I already explained the case for. 

Okay, seriously, this is getting annoying. How many times do I have to explain to you? If you actually paid any attention, in the final fight with Duma, if a Marth amiibo is scanned, Marth can actually deal the final blow to Duma and kill him. Why? Because Marth uses Falchion as well, the weapon as powerful as Valentia's Falchion storywise, and thus has the power to kill Duma. But when Lucina uses her Falchion, her attacks are sealed. Why? Because her Falchion doesn't hold the true power that it originally had, because she performed an incomplete Awakening. 

Furthermore, Naga literally says "With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might." The words "true might" is literally saying that she's merely unlocking the full power of Falchion because Falchion's original might is for some reason sealed. Marth always wielded the full power of Falchion, but unlike the Exalted Falchion that can be used to seal Grima away, the Falchion Marth uses didn't have that function. This is likely the reason that some new blood pact was made and how Falchion is now in relation with the Shield of Seals, it was to put the power of sealing by the Shield of Seals into Falchion so that Grima can be put to sleep. But with the Shield broken up of its Gemstones, Falchion was also affected by it and thus lost not just the sealing function, but a lot of its original power. So regardless of the case, Falchion's full might has always existed to be rivaling Naga's power. The fact that you're trying to go around this by some issue regarding the pact but blatantly ignoring what Naga herself said in her own words, you are going against canon.

AGAIN with this "only hope". What did I just say? All this "only hope" business is merely from the words of Forseti. This wasn't Naga saying it, was it? No, it was Forseti. How can we assume that what he says is purely factual? It was never stated by Kaga that Book of Naga is stronger than Falchion. No matter how many outdated information you pull out, there is no single confirmation of the case. And now by Awakening's story, Falchion's true might/full power rivals Naga herself. Which means that at best, the Book of Naga can only be as strong or weaker than Falchion. That's it. There's zero reason to even continue arguing that point.

The TCG is NEVER regarded into the canon side of the game. Not ONCE. Because if everything in the TCG was canon, then that Earth Dragon Manakete shouldn't have existed because we know that Medeus is the ONLY Manakete of the Earth Dragon tribe. So by all means, the TCG is not in any way canon to the actual gameplay. Stop deluding yourself by saying that a TCG artwork is the same as official artwork given in the game. 

Actually, it was. It was stated by Xane in Mystery of the Emblem that Naga commanded her tribe to fight for the humans. That means ONLY Divine Dragons participated in that war. 

"Narga, the king of the Divine Dragons, the strongest of all dragons, commanded his tribe to begin a battle to protect the humans."

Maybe Forseti did participate in that war. I dunno. He never made any kind of mention of the war, because that was a different story entirely, the same reason why Xane never mentioned Loptyr. And once again, no Fire, Mage, Flying, Ice dragon showed any kind of connection to the spheres. Medeus never showed any connection either, and the rest of his tribe went mad. So by all reason and logic, the 5 Gemstones were created by Divine Dragons. So once again, you're wrong and you cannot seem to accept that I'm right or have a good point. 

No matter how you look at it, through the new information that comes out,

I’m simply stating whats the case in FE4’s story. You are coming up with random crap like Naga being weakened or Falchion being Naga’s other hope when lore states otherwise. Also unlike you and FE4, I’ve actually played Awakening.

The real fanboy is the person who comes up with excuse after excuse to say Loptyr is weak and Naga’s tome is nothing when he’s never played FE4 to begin with. While ignoring stuff like Grima needing someone with his mark to revive.

The majority are still against your stupid theories and their reasoning. No one has agreed with you on things like Naga being wounded or Naga’s tome not possessing anyone. You are still the only one clinging to those stupid theories for the sake of belittling FE4.

No you’re using the logic of an Awakening fanboy to come with every excuse “Naga had a cold”, “Book of Naga doesn’t possess people”, “Forseti is senile.” That isn’t logic, its the desperation of a fanboy trying everything he can to make Awakening look good. 

If it was that powerful, why wouldn’t Naga create another to battle Loptyr, why would Naga do such a worrying decision, and why does everyone say creating the tome was Naga’s only hope. Again, you’re only logic is the logic of a desperate fanboy.

Amiibo abitlies aren’t canon to begin with, Ike can’t slay dragons despite Ragnell being literally empowered by a genuine god. 

Naga says that in  Awakening, long after Falchion was been combined with a Blood pact with the Exalt.

Forseti knew of the Falchion, Kaga states Naga created the tome to counter despite it being a very worrying decision. You are ignoring everything for the sake of shitting on that game.

The artwork on the Trading Card game was whats intended. The Generic Earth Dragon Manakete may be intended to represent Medeus. Nothing at all says Artwork is not intended to be canon.

Both the Japanese names for Darksphere and Shadow Dragon use the same term for Dark, Yami. Same powers, same name, ornament, face facts, it was never intended to be a Divine Dragon’s essence. 

It was known ALL the Divine Dragons took part in the war, but everything indicates other dragons like Bantu and Forseti participated.

We’ve already mentioned the power connection the Darksphere has to Earth and Shadow Dragons, repeatedly.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I’m simply stating whats the case in FE4’s story. You are coming up with random crap like Naga being weakened or Falchion being Naga’s other hope when lore states otherwise. Also unlike you and FE4, I’ve actually played Awakening.

The real fanboy is the person who comes up with excuse after excuse to say Loptyr is weak and Naga’s tome is nothing when he’s never played FE4 to begin with. While ignoring stuff like Grima needing someone with his mark to revive.

The majority are still against your stupid theories and their reasoning. No one has agreed with you on things like Naga being wounded or Naga’s tome not possessing anyone. You are still the only one clinging to those stupid theories for the sake of belittling FE4.

No you’re using the logic of an Awakening fanboy to come with every excuse “Naga had a cold”, “Book of Naga doesn’t possess people”, “Forseti is senile.” That isn’t logic, its the desperation of a fanboy trying everything he can to make Awakening look good. 

If it was that powerful, why wouldn’t Naga create another to battle Loptyr, why would Naga do such a worrying decision, and why does everyone say creating the tome was Naga’s only hope. Again, you’re only logic is the logic of a desperate fanboy.

Amiibo abitlies aren’t canon to begin with, Ike can’t slay dragons despite Ragnell being literally empowered by a genuine god. 

Naga says that in  Awakening, long after Falchion was been combined with a Blood pact with the Exalt.

Forseti knew of the Falchion, Kaga states Naga created the tome to counter despite it being a very worrying decision. You are ignoring everything for the sake of shitting on that game.

The artwork on the Trading Card game was whats intended. The Generic Earth Dragon Manakete may be intended to represent Medeus. Nothing at all says Artwork is not intended to be canon.

Both the Japanese names for Darksphere and Shadow Dragon use the same term for Dark, Yami. Same powers, same name, ornament, face facts, it was never intended to be a Divine Dragon’s essence. 

It was known ALL the Divine Dragons took part in the war, but everything indicates other dragons like Bantu and Forseti participated.

We’ve already mentioned the power connection the Darksphere has to Earth and Shadow Dragons, repeatedly.

Oh my god, I haven't even been saying that Loptyr is weak anymore. Where have I been continuing that line of argument AT ALL? Naga being physically weaker has absolutely ZERO relevance in Loptyr's power. Did you not hear me at all when I said that Naga actually going against the clan's laws of meddling in human lives in such a manner and creating the Book of Naga is actually showing more emphasis on Loptyr's strength BECAUSE Naga was physically weaker? If Naga is physically weaker, meaning she cannot create another Falchion that's as strong as the other ones she made, then the fact that she to rely on a blood pact and a tome that can influence the holder, despite how much she dislikes the idea just shows that she acknowledges and/or fears Loptyr's strength. If anything, I'm PRAISING Loptyr's power at this point. Physical weakness holds no relevance when Naga herself never participated in the battle and it was her magical power that was there. If Naga directly participated in that battle and died, then me saying that Naga being weakened would be insulting to Loptyr's strength. But its not the case in this matter at all.

And I HAVE played Awakening and I've seen all the gameplay of FE4. I use reason and logic, and information that is provided to me by the canon to make theories. I don't just make random half assed explanations and reasons. If I make a theory, I have reasons behind it. If you disprove it, then that just means my theory is lacking and thus I have to move on.

Furthermore, the case of Grima isn't the same as Loptyr. Grima is stated by Naga herself to not be able to be killed. Only put to sleep. In fact, she even said that Grima WOULD awaken and come back 1000 years after being put to sleep. This opens up the question about whether Grima truly NEEDS a vessel to fully revive, because Naga never expressed any kind of mention that killing the vessels and bloodline would do it. In fact, the only thing Naga expressly said is that Grima can only be killed by his own power. This makes one wonder how that would make sense. Does that mean that Grima's bloodline cannot be truly extinguished? Des Grima's spirit return and just takes over? Does he regenerate? There's not enough information sadly, but the case is, Loptyr and Grima aren't the same. Loptyr is a Dragon that is possessing a human connected to his bloodline via a pact, which may or may not have been broken after Julius was killed. Since Loptyr never appeared again at this point, its not sure if Loptyr is alive anymore. Grima is instead an abomination that may actually be connected to Naga because he was created possibly by Naga's own blood and is a creation between life and death. Not only that, but Grima was GIVEN blood by Forneus, which isn't how the blood pact has worked for Loptyr, because Loptyr GAVE blood to Galle. 

Okay STOP. 

Forget about the case of possession here. Strike that off the record. I'm not continuing that line of argument anymore, because that's no longer part of the relevance in the argument here. 

I have been repeatedly saying why Naga didn't create another Falchion. If Naga was physically weakened, having just gotten out of the war, creating a Falchion and the Shield of Seals, then her life force is dangerously exhausted. Then she learns of Loptyr. If Naga was not confident in fighting Loptyr directly and didn't want to risk losing the Falchion she made for the humans of Archanea, but she cannot make another Falchion that's as strong as the other ones that holds the same power as her anymore, she decides to perform a desperate act and creates the tome that uses her powers. In this case, the tome holds just as much power as her, rivaling Falchion, but is dangerous that it can influence or possess the user with her will. But it was her only hope to fight Loptyr at that point. The case you're probably upset about is how, "Naga could have used Falchion to win and not needed the book of Naga at all." But that's just it, taking Falchion there was too risky. And say if there was already some spell on Falchion that attaches to bloodlines on it, then if she brought it and some human took it, then Falchion would HAVE to stay in Jugdral, and Naga just lost her weapon for Archanea and can't make another one.

Ike is not relevant in the matter with Duma. Ike is from a completely separate universe. It's the case of Falchion that Marth has and the Falchion that Lucina has. Both are supposed to be the same weapons from the same universe made by the same being Naga, but one amiibo CAN kill Duma, whereas the other CANNOT. That actually says a LOT. If Lucina cannot kill Duma with her Falchion, it stands to reason that her Falchion isn't as powerful as the Falchion that Marth wields, because her Falchion doesn't have access to its full might. That's what the gameplay was trying to hint at. 

I'm not ignoring everything. Stop thinking that I am. Actually LOOK at the information that is given to you. Naga herself directly states that Falchion's true might rivals her own in that same context. Forseti is speaking for Naga, but isn't actually Naga herself. There's a major difference in Forseti saying something about another being's power than the being themselves explaining their powers. To Forseti, it was their only hope and perhaps saw it as the strongest, but Falchion was not even in the same context of that conversation. And Naga says that Falchion's true might rivals her own, which would indicate that the Book of Naga should at best be as strong as Falchion. That's what the information is giving us now. 

The card game is not part of the actual continuity of the games. The artwork made into it is just purely for looks so that the card would show the item being more grand or unique than just some regular sphere. 

That case of yami doesn't mean a single thing though. There are no Earth Dragons or Shadow Dragons that have a connection with the spheres. Medeus is the only one that was a sane Earth/Shadow Dragon that existed at the place. Loptyr left, so he can't have any involvement, and the rest of the Earth Dragons went insane, and Medeus made no motion of involvement in it. Medeus only speaks of the Shield of Seals itself, and that's it. Meaning that if he holds no connection to the sphere, then the darksphere's only possible origin lies with the Divine Dragons. Simple as that. There are no implications that its origins lies with the other dragons at all. And given the dark magic that we are saying that Duma can do, it stands to reason that the orb can still be performed by Divine Dragons because they could just utilize some dark magic as well. It's not out of the realm of possibility anymore. 

Bantu never made any form of indication that he participated in the war. Forseti is still mostly considered to be a Divine Dragon. There are no confirmation if he belonged to any other tribe and the strongest logic is that he's from the Divine Dragon tribe. So he could have participated in the war for all we know. 

[SuperIb]

*opens thread due to curiosity*

*looks at most recent posts*

*sees large bodies of argumentative text occupying entire page*

*backs out of thread*

[Baldrick]

14 hours ago, VincentASM said:

Man, at this point, I feel like we should've had a new thread 10 pages ago or something : P

Story-wise, they have been making a big deal of Falchion being pretty dang strong too and the embodiment of Naga's will and/or power (in Awakening and Echoes). Could be a retcon though.

I said something along those lines but I deleted it because it felt too rude. If you, the TC are saying it, though...

Actually, Falchion's power being tied to the complete Binding Shield is exclusive to Awakening (and by extension Echoes?) It wasn't complete during Anri and Marth's first fight with Medeus, and in the second fight the purpose of the Binding Shield is to reseal the Earth Dragons rather than powering up Falchion. I can't find any official source that explicitly states whether it's due to the Awakening ritual, or if Falchion was always like that.

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I said something along those lines but I deleted it because it felt too rude. If you, the TC are saying it, though...

Actually, Falchion's power being tied to the complete Binding Shield is exclusive to Awakening (and by extension Echoes?) It wasn't complete during Anri and Marth's first fight with Medeus, and in the second fight the purpose of the Binding Shield is to reseal the Earth Dragons rather than powering up Falchion. I can't find any official source that explicitly states whether it's due to the Awakening ritual, or if Falchion was always like that.

Yes, originally, during Marth's time, Falchion and the Shield of Seals were never needed together or anything of the sort. Falchion was made so that humans can fight dragons as Falchion holds Naga's power, able to strike like the dragon itself. However, 1000 years after Marth's time, Grima came to power, and his power was phenomenal, being the largest creature in Fire Emblem history, the size of countries.

I theorize that Naga, possibly fully awakened from her incarnation Nagi, realized that Falchion alone would not be able to stop it, as Grima was beyond killing with her power. So she met the First Exalt and performed a blood pact in conjunction with the Shield of Seals and Falchion, combining the power of the seals that is held in the completed Shield of Seals, and transfer it into Falchion. Thus Falchion can be used to seal Grima away. 

However, the new rite that was performed with it had an odd twist. When the Shield of Seals was broken apart, the power that was transferred into Falchion now worked in a sort of reverse, sealing away Falchion's own power, hence why the Falchion Chrom carries is much weaker than the original, but when the Awakening is performed, Falchion's true might is once again unleashed, and it has the added bonus once more of being able to seal away Grima.

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

However, the new rite that was performed with it had an odd twist. When the Shield of Seals was broken apart, the power that was transferred into Falchion now worked in a sort of reverse, sealing away Falchion's own power,

Do you have a source for that, or did you make it up to suit your headcanon?

Edited May 25, 2017 by Baldrick

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Do you have a source for that, or did you make it up to suit your headcanon?

I already said earlier when making the entire mention that this is what I theorize. But that's likely the only reasonable explanation. Why else would Falchion, that remained the same for over a thousand years after the war with the Earth Dragons, would suddenly lose its power and become sealed, and for some reason using the Shield of Seals to awaken said power? Falchion and the Shield of Seals were never expressed to be performed in conjunction with one another, and yet the Awakening ritual requires the completed Shield of Seals and Falchion. It stands to reason that this might have had a hand in Falchion's power suddenly growing weaker.