Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

idk if I mentioned it before, but I really did consider the possibility that the naga tome was built specifically to take on Loptyr because he had a dark tome- if I did mention it before sorry for redundancy

I don't remember. Not surprising the possibility of it being lost given how the arguments go. 

And in the end, I don't think Hardin should have too much issues with the case here. Falchion and Book of Naga remain equal in strength, there's a reason for Naga using a tome over Falchion, and it doesn't have the biggest issue with Naga needing to be crippled, as I can now even accept that Naga was fine.

[Emperor Hardin]

16 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, you know the story, you go through the entire gameplay, its still the same. Saying that not playing it means that you don't understand the story is not even true. If you've seen the story through even through a gameplay, then you do know it, especially if you understand the characters. So I can say for certainty that Loptyr as a character villain isn't that great. Is Grima better? No. Storywise, is Grima more powerful, yes he is. But am I saying that Loptyr is weak? Hell no. Loptyr is still very strong. 

I cannot make a complete argument on the case on whether Grima can survive without a vessel. Reason being is that there is too little information. But Naga herself said that Grima cannot die. If killing the bloodline equalled removing his threat, then she would have mentioned it, but she never did, and insisted that Grima has to die by his own hand. However, you do have a point in the case that there could be others of the Fellblood lineage, but there was no indication that Validar had any other family members, as even Aversa was just a gifted village girl that Validar had found. Also, there's also the case of Grima can only be put to sleep for 1000 years. Why 1000? What happens if there's a pure Fellblood like Robin existing while the seal is still on? Does it mean that the Fellblood can awaken him early? Grima came back 1000 years after his first defeat, and there's been a vessel for him for several years now. This is the issue I had with Awakening, because it didn't give enough information about the circumstances about Grima's lineage.

And again, no, they are not exactly the same. Again, Loptyr's case is that he is an Earth Dragon GAVE a human his blood, and then put all his anger, rage, and hatred into the tome that held all his powers. Grima's case isn't the same, because he is a CREATED Dragon that was GIVEN blood. He was created using Divine Dragon blood, which I believe may have actually been Naga's, and then given Forneus' own blood. That's NOT the same at all. The entire blood pact is now the opposite. 

Wrong. I don't think that Grima is better than Loptyr as a character or a villain. Like I mentioned above, Grima is only stronger than Loptyr storywise. Naga being wounded or weakened PHYSICALLY has NOTHING to do with the overall power that they hold. Think about it, Naga never fought Loptyr directly. Had Naga fought Loptyr directly and I say that she was weakened and still won, then yes, I would be insulting Loptyr's strength. My case being is that Naga being physically weakened is why she chose to make a tome that contained her powers instead of another Falchion. If they are the same strength, which by now would have to be the case at best given the dialogue in Awakening, it just shows the desperation Naga needed to produce a weapon that would actually put her will within humans. 

Does he? He's not Naga, is he? His power is inferior to hers. To him, her powers are something far above his, so all the information we can take from him is second hand. Naga HERSELF mentions that Falchion true might rivals her own. Even an argument about it being two different Nagas won't fully hold because of Tiki, who holds power equal to original Naga's, can awaken Falchion's true might like Awakening Naga can, meaning that both versions of Nagas would have to be even.

And again, if Falchion never went to Jugdral, then Forseti has no reason to talk about it. He didn't tell Seliph about the dragon war between the Divine and Earth Dragons, because the story wasn't necessary here. Its the same reason why Xane never told Marth and the others about Loptyr. The stories for each side are irrelevant. 

That TCG depiction has Hardin holding a scythe. Tell me, was he ever holding a scythe in the game? No. And once again, I point out about the case of the spheres being merely made with decorations to be simple aesthetics. Hardin is an actual character. The spheres are merely orbs. You cannot compare the two to be the same. 

Medeus was NEVER stated to have participated in the war. It was literally explained that only the Divine Dragons fought in the war against the Earth Dragons and any other degenerated dragons. It was only said that Medeus was the sole Earth Dragon that became a Manakete and Naga made him with the task of guarding the seal. Even if Naga had other allies, it doesn't change what Xane said about who participated against the Earth Dragons, which are the Divine Dragons. That is canon support, taken from a direct line.

I'm gonna say that this is arguing against what Hero of the Fire Emblems said about how the 5 Gemstones hold a portion of Naga's power. And actually, there IS evidence on that. The fact is, Naga created the Shield of Seals. The five orbs were already strongly implied to have been made alongside the Shield. Since Naga is the one that placed the seal on the Earth Dragons, then the orbs holding her powers and mounted onto the Shield would amount to using her full powers, thus being able to hold the seal indefinitely. 

Furthermore, you cannot say that Kaga CLEARLY intended the orbs to not be solely Divine Dragon origin. There was never any evidence to support that, and you cannot speak for Kaga on this. Now that the Earth Dragons no longer exist, likely because Grima ate them all, the power of the Shield of Seals is pointless. That's likely why the Awakening ritual was concocted. By being able to channel the power of the Shield of Seals ability to seal into Falchion, Falchion can be used to seal away Grima.

Once again, aesthetics. You cannot use an artwork from a TCG as hardcore evidence here. It's not an official artwork released from the video games, but from a card game. The five spheres were forged using magic in the end. The Darksphere was very likely created from dark magic. Naga would know knowledge on dark magic as well. Just because she is good at heart doesn't mean anything. And Duma, despite being a Divine Dragon, showed that he uses magic that can actually be very similar to the Darksphere, as he gave Jedah that protection, prevented anything but sacred weapons like Falchion defeat him, and the case where he is able to turn girls into witches and the case of witches being victims of souls being lost or offered, are all things that are also similar to the Darksphere as well, since the Darksphere absorbs souls as well. 

Who are these "everyone" anyways? Not everyone have actually been against me on this. Sure, lots of people, but not "everyone" as you claim. And I am not arguing against Naga using Falchion in the war. Falchion had to have been made during or after the war at least. And given how the Valentian Falchion seems to also display signs of being able to seal a Dragon's power, its possible that Archanean Falchion was used by Naga to seal the Earth Dragons in the first place. However, that doesn't at all counter that Naga came out of that war unscathed. The Earth Dragons numbered in the thousands as Gotoh said, and even degenerated, the Earth Dragons boasted tremendous might. Even fighting intelligently does not in any way guarantee that Naga was perfectly healthy.

Once again, even if Kaga never mentioned it, it doesn't say that he said that she was perfectly healthy either. And the fact that with Awakening revealing that Falchion's might rivals Naga's own, then Book of Naga had to have best rival that. So why did Naga make Book of Naga instead of another Falchion? You haven't answered that at all. You cannot argue that Book of Naga was stronger because again, at best the tome can only rival Falchion's might. Meaning that unless you can have an explanation on why Naga would go that route instead of another Falchion route, the only logical explanation would be that she was actually weakened physically and desperately needed to rival Falchion's power, so she made a tome of her powers, even at the risk of having her will be placed within humans. 

I don't even need to argue about the case of Duma being a Shadow Dragon. Really, I don't. I already mentioned above how he used magic very similar to the Darksphere, so I already proved that Darksphere can be made by Divine Dragons. ANd I already told you on the case of the possession of people is not the point here, yet you STILL bring it up.

Oh don't even go there. He might have designed the cards, but the fact remains that the artworks in Mystery of the Emblem show full indication that the Darksphere was a full rounded sphere. No attachments on it. The TCG only shows the Darksphere for pure aesthetic reasons. And the story even indicates they are only spheres. Meaning that the TCG artwork having this attachment that you're so desperately clinging to has absolutely no support in the actual game. 

No, it isn't. The Starsphere in Echoes are not the same one. In fact, its legitimately the most pathetic argument you have now made. The Starsphere broke apart from the strain of creating Starlight, and Gotoh had the pieces, but they were stolen. You cannot try and say that Alm had gathered the pieces in Valentia, completed it, and then had it rebroken and stolen back all the way to Archanea, when that isn't the case at all. That is really lame that you would even TRY to make use of that. Also, this came from that pure dungeon DLC that has no story basis in it, and its only there that would would find the Starsphere shards, meaning that unlike story-wise DLC that other games have, this one legitimately has no canon basis. 

WHERE does it say that? No, there is absolutely NO evidence saying that Forseti WASN'T a Divine Dragon. There's actually been MORE evidence that he's Divine Dragon. We talked about what his origins of tribe could be, but there was never any full indication about Forseti's tribe, but the strongest likelihood is that he's a Divine Dragon. Bantu served Gotoh, who served Naga. Not to mention, was Bantu ever mentioned to have participated in the war? Was it the Divine Dragons and Bantu in the war? No, it wasn't. He never made any comments about the war and was never mentioned to have participated. Divine Dragons were said to have participated in the war, hence why Xane and Gotoh very likely did participate in the war. Forseti would likely have stronger likelihood to being a Divine Dragon if he did participate in the war.

 

The concept artwork for the Emperor Arvis in FE4 has him holding a scythe as well. This is a direct reference to that concept artwork from an artist who worked on the game. 

Shadow Dragons never existing before Medeus, Naga’s tome not possessing people, Duma being a Shadow dragon, and your other theories are half assed fanon.

Grima cannot die as long as mark holders exist. Present Grima literally couldn't do anything until he bailed out by Future Robin. His methods are exactly like Loptyr, even using the same henchmen, the Deadlords. Leif even compares the two marks in DLC.

No, Forseti’s wind powers(which match the Sky Dragon in TRS) as opposed to the “God of Light” description of Naga strongly imply he isn’t a Divine Dragon. He never acts like he is one and never refers to Naga as if they're of the same tribe. The other dragon to be described by an element, the Fire God, was indeed a Fire Dragon. His inability and his tomes to get around Loptyr’s defense is consistent with Earth Dragons halving the damage of all non Divine Dragon attackers. There's literally nothing that implies Forseti is Divine. You have no leg to stand on in this argument.

If Divine Dragons could control all elements like a master, then beings like Earth dragons would not be described as their equals and counterparts. Forseti specifically describes the powers of the Earth tribe as unique to them and not like any other Dragon tribe.

Actually Kaga says the Spheres are made similar to dragon stones. Thus they can't simply be elements from the world. The dragon tribe has the ability to transfer their power and will into dragon stones (what humans refer to as orbs). Direct quote.

Kaga doesn’t leave details out, if Naga was wounded, he’d have mentioned it. You just squeeze this fanon because you want Grima to be better, you've outright admitted not liking Loptyr as a character. This is fanboy logic at its finest.

Falchion containing all of Naga's might is again only mentioned in Awakening.'s timeframe

Why would Salamander even be brought if Divine Dragons could just do everything? Given Salamander's close relationship with Naga as described by Kaga, why would he sit out the war against the degenerated dragons? Xane never states or implies the Divine Dragons were the only people in the war, just that they were the primary force and suffered the most casualties.

Your theory makes zero sense.

 

The artwork of Mystery of the Emblem uses several palette swaps, even New Mystery of the Emblem. The lore never contradicts the spheres having ornaments. Heck the DS sprites for it depict it with a stand, while the CG artwork in the DS Remakes doesn’t depict this.

The Light sphere's color changed from yellow to white in Awakening. The entire shape of the shield itself changed without explanation. You can't just dismiss artwork as non-canon just because you don't like it when designs for dragons and items change all the time based off the artist in Fire Emblem. 

Again you are disrespecting the artist for the sake of your delusional fan fiction ideas.

Its heavily implied to be same Fane of Roman in the DLC as a reference to Archanea, serenesforest itself says it is the probably the same. Modeled after the Fane of Raman from Archanea–or possibly one and the same. The Fane of Raman has had plenty of thievery problems in both books, what makes you sure it wouldn’t be broken into. Its never said the thieves broke the Starsphere in the DLC either, just that they broke into the temple. Similarly its never stated where the location of the DLC takes place.

It is indeed called Star orb in the dialogue by the NPCs in the script. Only the item's in game name has changed. All Japanese sites are consistent in saying its the same item and that the temple is probably intended to be the Fane of Raman.

Its funny to hear someone who has made repeated canon breaking arguments like Naga’s tome doesn’t possess people, calling someone else’s argument pathetic. Take a good look at yourself in the mirror.

You say you want peace between the new and old players, yet you propose ridiculous retcons for the series, insulting older fans  as you do so. Is this really the actions of someone who wants peace in the fandom? All your aggressive pushing of your fan theories has alienated people from you and caused more rifts in this forum.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

Alm/Celica piece together the Star Jancith in the DLC. From shards.

 

in case you aren't aware, the genuine Starsphere of the Binding Shield is currently smashed into 12 pieces that Wendell is scrambling to try and find over in Archanea. Alm/Celica taking 12 Shards and making an item out of them completely precludes it from actually being the exact same item purely based on order of events, as the true starsphere stays shattered from the end of FE11 up until Gotoh restores it in FE12. FE15 takes place between 11 and 12; unless you want to argue that is no longer the case?

 

It being the same starsphere isn't just an assumption, but it's a literal impossibility and that's precisely why it has a different name altogether. There's also the issue that it is possible to procure enough Shards from the Astral Temple and its inner sanctum to make two or more star jancinths.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Alm/Celica piece together the Star Jancith in the DLC. From shards.

 

in case you aren't aware, the genuine Starsphere of the Binding Shield is currently smashed into 12 pieces that Wendell is scrambling to try and find over in Archanea. Alm/Celica taking 12 Shards and making an item out of them completely precludes it from actually being the exact same item purely based on order of events, as the true starsphere stays shattered from the end of FE11 up until Gotoh restores it in FE12. FE15 takes place between 11 and 12; unless you want to argue that is no longer the case?

 

It being the same starsphere isn't just an assumption, but it's a literal impossibility and that's precisely why it has a different name altogether. There's also the issue that it is possible to procure enough Shards from the Astral Temple and its inner sanctum to make two or more star jancinths.

Well there is also the case that it makes absolutely no sense for Alm of Celica to randomly take a trip to the Fane of Raman in the middle of their journey. So there's no real reason it should interfere with FE12 if you take it that it's canon to a different world as we've seen with DLC plenty of times before.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well there is also the case that it makes absolutely no sense for Alm of Celica to randomly take a trip to the Fane of Raman in the middle of their journey. So there's no real reason it should interfere with FE12 if you take it that it's canon to a different world as we've seen with DLC plenty of times before.

Which is why I brought up earlier that the Mila Turnwheels seem to have the same symbols on them as the Outrealm Gate in Awakening does, because it seems pretty obvious what they're implying about the Turnwheels with that to me.

Its definitely similar to the Fane but I have a few doubts about it; it's missing a few key rooms that are present in FE11, but neither am I certain it ISNT the Fane either

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Emperor Hardin]

18 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Alm/Celica piece together the Star Jancith in the DLC. From shards.

 

in case you aren't aware, the genuine Starsphere of the Binding Shield is currently smashed into 12 pieces that Wendell is scrambling to try and find over in Archanea. Alm/Celica taking 12 Shards and making an item out of them completely precludes it from actually being the exact same item purely based on order of events, as the true starsphere stays shattered from the end of FE11 up until Gotoh restores it in FE12. FE15 takes place between 11 and 12; unless you want to argue that is no longer the case?

 

It being the same starsphere isn't just an assumption, but it's a literal impossibility and that's precisely why it has a different name altogether. There's also the issue that it is possible to procure enough Shards from the Astral Temple and its inner sanctum to make two or more star jancinths.

DLC for Awakening had among other things vegetable craving entombed and multiple copies of the Crusader weapons like the Forseti and the Naga tomes available for plunder despite them being one of a kind in the lore.

Basically while there are exceptions like the scenario missions, a lot of DLC maps for the 3DS games generally goes for gameplay rewards over story.

You can get multiple star spheres because they are helpful to have and as a reward for shelling out real money.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

DLC for Awakening had among other things vegetable craving entombed and multiple copies of the Crusader weapons like the Forseti and the Naga tomes available for plunder.

Basically with exceptions like the scenario missions, DLC for the 3DS games generally goes for gameplay over story.

You can get multiple star spheres because they are helpful to have and as a reward for shelling out real money.

Canonly its likely Alm and Cellica didn't go to the Astral temple. 

The implication for the DLC regalia is that they're similar to parallel Falchion in that they're the same weapons from Lucina's timeline; I'm actually referring to the fact that it is hypothetically possible to procure enough Shards for two orbs in a single runthrough but I still digress. The bigger issue is the existence of them AT ALL because even one star Jancith is a problem; the Shards are scattered throughout Archanea, not all holed up in a single temple, Fane or not. The item has an entirely different name for a damned good reason. That reason being it is quite blatantly not the actual starsphere that is currently strewn about across Archanea.

 

again, I would direct you to my comment on the Turnwheels' symbols and the implication thereof.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Emperor Hardin]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

The implication for the DLC regalia is that they're similar to parallel Falchion in that they're the same weapons from Lucina's timeline; I'm actually referring to the fact that it is hypothetically possible to procure enough Shards for two orbs in a single runthrough but I still digress. The bigger issue is the existence of them AT ALL because even one star Jancith is a problem; the Shards are scattered throughout Archanea, not all holed up in a single temple, Fane or not.

 

again, I would direct you to my comment on the Turnwheels' symbols and the implication thereof.

An alternate version of Archanea and the Fane of Raman, if that is what you are implying, would be consistent with a lot of DLC taking place in other dimensions.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

An alternate version of Archanea and the Fane of Raman, if that is what you are implying, would be consistent with a lot of DLC taking place in other dimensions.

I'm not even assuredly implying that, because there's not enough info to suggest that. Sure it's a possibility but one I'm not fully jumping on. But I'll humor you; if we go that route, it definitely isn't the same item, but an item from a different world with a completely different history. Which could explain why it has the function of the original pre retcon starsphere and Shards, but nonetheless it has a different history where it is not found by Marth but by Alm. and probably a different Past on top of that seeing where it ended up.

 

This is also the same game where we have a Parthia and Mercurius that are forged by Alm/Celica during the game without any explaination whatsoever, keep in mind.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[SoulWeaver]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well there is also the case that it makes absolutely no sense for Alm of Celica to randomly take a trip to the Fane of Raman in the middle of their journey. So there's no real reason it should interfere with FE12 if you take it that it's canon to a different world as we've seen with DLC plenty of times before.

Oh, Jotari! Jumping back in here because I forgot about you. I think I've got the formatting on my old Scribbles entry to a reasonable level and would love to hear your feedback since you didn't get a chance to do so during the actual Scribbles. I knew there was someone besides Eclipse and EllJee I was going to get back to but couldn't remember.

Anyways, sorry for the interruption, guys, I don't have anything to add right now except thanks for the thought-provoking discussion - you've all given me some good ideas for my future writing!

[Emperor Hardin]

4 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I'm not even assuredly implying that, because there's not enough info to suggest that. But I'll humor you; if we go that route, it definitely isn't the same item, but an item from a different world with a completely different history. Which could explain why it has the function of the original pre retcon starsphere and Shards, but nonetheless it has a different history where it is not found by Marth but by Alm. and probably a different Past on top of that seeing where it ended up.

We don't know the location of the temple in the DLC, it could easily be the same spot where the Fane is in Alm's universe. 

None of the other alternate universe legendaries items from DLC have different functions.

The breath of Dragons lost the ability to ignore the defense of Dragon units, it was restored in Echoes because the game wanted to revisit the older mechanics. This is probably the same reason why the Starsphere has reverted to its original gameplay function of increasing growth rates rather then giving temporary stat boosts.

The Geosphere lost its abilities to create earthquake from Shadow Dragon to New Mystery of the Emblem, despite not cracked in the Mystery remake. Rather then being a retcon, like the spheres changing, it was probably a gameplay decision.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

We don't know the location of the temple in the DLC, it could easily be the same spot where the Fane is in Alm's universe. 

None of the other alternate universe legendaries items from DLC have different functions.

The breath of Dragons lost the ability to ignore the defense of Dragon units, it was restored in Echoes because the game wanted to revisit the older mechanics. This is probably the same reason why the Starsphere has reverted to its original gameplay function of increasing growth rates rather then giving temporary stat boosts.

If it isn't an alternate universe version, it definitely isn't the genuine starsphere because again that thing is BROKEN currently in Archanea, and Echoes being an interquel forbids the genuine article from being restored- because MARTH has to do that during FE12. Same reason why certain units in FE7 can't die because they end up fathering FE6 units, or outright showing up in 6- they just "retreat". Also similar reason to why Yoda can't win in Star Wars episode 3 and why Anakin can't triumph over his inner evil in that same film.

 

if it's a different universe, it clearly has a different history since it somehow ended up smashed and strewn around the astral temple, rather than being cleanly enshrined in a chest in the Fane alongside the Light and Geo spheres, and thus isn't the same starsphere that we know of in Marth's world- again not being the same item, not based on stats alone but also on circumstance and location.

The "with DLC" makes your statement true, but Parallel Falchion (which is base game) does have a different function on account of having a slightly different history where Lucina fucks up the Awakening and only partially awakens Falchion as a key example of how histories can differ.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Emperor Hardin]

2 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

If it isn't an alternate universe version, it definitely isn't the genuine starsphere because again that thing is BROKEN currently in Archanea.

 

if it's a different universe, it clearly has a different history since it somehow ended up smashed and strewn around the temple, rather than being cleanly enshrined in a chest in the Fane alongside the Light and Geo spheres, and thus isn't the same starsphere that we know of in Marth's world- again not being the same item, not based on stats alone but also on circumstance and location.

The "with DLC" makes your statement true, but Parallel Falchion (which is base game) does have a different function on account of having a slightly different history where Lucina fucks up the Awakening and only partially awakens Falchion as a key example of how histories can differ.

The Fane of Raman seems to be a popular target by thieves based off people like Dahl, even in an alternate universe things haven't changed.

I'm inclined to believe the Starsphere has the same function in the universe.

Amiibo rewards tend to be slightly weaker then DLC rewards. If Lucina was a reward for a downloadable DLC, I'm sure they'd buff her and the Falchion up immensely.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The Fane of Raman seems to be a popular target by thieves based off people like Dahl, even in an alternate universe things haven't changed.

I'm inclined to believe the Starsphere has the same function in the universe.

Amiibo rewards tend to be slightly weaker then DLC rewards. If Lucina was a reward for a downloadable DLC, I'm sure they'd buff her and the Falchion up immensely.

I'm talking about IN Awakening. Not as DLC or anything. Parallel falchion is weaker than the real one. In awakening's  base game. And it comes from a different timeline.

But this even holds true in both Fates and Echoes; Marth's Falchion is stronger than Lucina's Falchion in both games. The entire POINT of parallel Falchion is that it's an alternate timeline version of Falchion that got fucked up by Lucina, and that's a point they keep intact in Fates and Echoes's amiibo item appearances compared to Marth's Falchion.

 

Regardless of how you spin this, you're either looking at a rip off starsphere in the same way they have a rip off Gradivus (!!) in Echoes, or you're looking at a Parallel Starsphere which cannot be used as concrete, hard and fast evidence to say something about a wholly different timeline. Both of which have a different item name, just like Parallel Falchion does.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Emperor Hardin]

7 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I'm talking about IN Awakening. Not as DLC or anything. Parallel falchion is weaker than the real one. In awakening's  base game. And it comes from a different timeline.

But this even holds true in both Fates and Echoes; Marth's Falchion is stronger than Lucina's Falchion in both games. The entire POINT of parallel Falchion is that it's an alternate timeline version of Falchion that got fucked up by Lucina, and that's a point they keep intact in Fates and Echoes's amiibo item appearances compared to Marth's Falchion.

 

Regardless of how you spin this, you're either looking at a rip off starsphere in the same way they have a rip off Gradivus (!!) in Echoes, or you're looking at a Parallel Starsphere which cannot be used as concrete, hard and fast evidence to say something about a wholly different timeline.

The legendaries from alternate universes in all 3DS DLC look just like the regular incarnations.

I'm very skeptical on the Starsphere in Echoes being blue due to some retcon as opposed to the artwork changing as always happens in Fire Emblem. Just compare Dragon designs from one game to another. Wyverns went from bipedal in Path of Radiance to quadrupedal in Radiant Dawn. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Azure Sen]

3 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I'm talking about IN Awakening. Not as DLC or anything. Parallel falchion is weaker than the real one. In awakening's  base game. And it comes from a different timeline.

Parallel Falchion is actually stronger than Falchion in Awakening's base game at 12 Mt to regular Falchion's 5 Mt.

4 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

But this even holds true in both Fates and Echoes; Marth's Falchion is stronger than Lucina's Falchion in both games. The entire POINT of parallel Falchion is that it's an alternate timeline version of Falchion that got fucked up by Lucina, 

The Parallel Falchion is just Falchion from another universe, that's it. Lucina didn't mess up her world's Falchion in some way; the Awakening kids came from their timeline because one of the gems of the Fire Emblem was missing, not because of Falchion.

[Jotari]

34 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

Oh, Jotari! Jumping back in here because I forgot about you. I think I've got the formatting on my old Scribbles entry to a reasonable level and would love to hear your feedback since you didn't get a chance to do so during the actual Scribbles. I knew there was someone besides Eclipse and EllJee I was going to get back to but couldn't remember.

Anyways, sorry for the interruption, guys, I don't have anything to add right now except thanks for the thought-provoking discussion - you've all given me some good ideas for my future writing!

If you want to say something to me off topic you can PM me you know.

9 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Parallel Falchion is actually stronger than Falchion in Awakening's base game at 12 Mt to regular Falchion's 5 Mt.

The Parallel Falchion is just Falchion from another universe, that's it. Lucina didn't mess up her world's Falchion in some way; the Awakening kids came from their timeline because one of the gems of the Fire Emblem was missing, not because of Falchion.

It's stronger than Chrom's base Falchion because it's partially awakened but weaker than Chrom's awakened Falchion. The reason they went back in time is because one of the gemstones is missing but the reason that actually makes a difference is because the Falchion cannot be fully Awakened. If it could then they could defeat Grima in the same way Chrom does in the main story (or Lucina does in the Future Past timeline).

Edited June 6, 2017 by Jotari

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

16 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Parallel Falchion is actually stronger than Falchion in Awakening's base game at 12 Mt to regular Falchion's 5 Mt.

The Parallel Falchion is just Falchion from another universe, that's it. Lucina didn't mess up her world's Falchion in some way; the Awakening kids came from their timeline because one of the gems of the Fire Emblem was missing, not because of Falchion.

The true power of Falchion, Exalted Falchion (Divine Blade Falchion in the Japanese version, same as 11 and 12's epithet). The Falchion in its true power has a might of 15 compared to 12 of the Parallel Falchion.

The "base" Falchion is called the sealed Falchion in Awakening, and has lost it's power since the events of FE12 took place. Hence why it is so much weaker than most weapons compared to the Divine Blade Falchion of Marth's era which was perhaps the strongest sword in that era, similar to the fully realized Divine Blade Falchion of Chrom's.

 

Why do you think them not having the final gemstone was so damn important? Lucina performed a partial Awakening ritual with only 4 of the gemstones- Validar kept Sable from their grasp- and this resulted in a Falchion that was only at partial strength. As a result, Falchion could not kill/seal Grima, only somewhat harm him and drive him back temporarily at best. Future Past has Lucina perform an Awakening with all Five Gemstones on her timeline's Falchion, which becomes Exalted/Divine Blade Falchion.

 

The entire reason the gemstone was important was PRECISELY because they needed the full emblem to use the full Awakening on Falchion, not in spite of Falchion. Lucina performed a partial Awakening without Sable in sheer desperation, and this resulted in the half realized Parallel Falchion.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

Oh Hardin Hardin Hardin... you basically argue against ANYONE that doesn't follow your line of logic now. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Grima cannot die as long as mark holders exist. Present Grima literally couldn't do anything until he bailed out by Future Robin. His methods are exactly like Loptyr, even using the same henchmen, the Deadlords. Leif even compares the two marks in DLC.

Once again, that's the issue here. Awakening at one point say that Grima is beginning to slowly awaken from slumber:

Tiki: Here. Take Azure, exalted ones. With it, you possess two of the five Gemstones. Now you must seek out the others and perform the Awakening. Our world must be defended from Grima at all costs!
Chrom: But I'm confused... I thought Grima's power was sealed away.
Tiki: Yes, but ever since, there have been those who would change that. Grima's life force grows even now, and with it, the long shadows of despair.
Lucina: ......
Chrom: When will he return? And where?
Tiki: I cannot know these things. But I can feel his presence... It looms, closer and closer... This task is a heavy burden, but as he of exalted blood, it must fall to you, Chrom.

Then Naga goes and says:

Naga: Alas, Grima cannot be slain. Sleep alone can be your victory. Just as your ancestor put the fell dragon to sleep a millennium ago. But you must weaken him first. Only as the final blow can my power be used to bind his.
Lissa: Isn't there ANY way to destroy him for good?
Naga: There is, perchance, a power that could end Grima. However... 'Twould be his own.
Frederick: ...He has to kill himself?
Naga: Yes. And never would he do so of his own volition. He seeks only to add to his power, and set ruin upon the world. Now come. There is little time...

If all it took was to remove everyone from the Fellblood, then she would have said that, but could note that such a task is impossible if there are too many people with his lineage or something. But no, she says that the ONLY way to kill him is for him to do so himself, and it only happened in the end because Grima screwed himself over by going back in the first place cause he didn't realize that time travel runs on the multiverse theory. 

And Tiki saying that his power and life force are growing stronger could either be a sign that there is a mark holder or that because the millennium is ending, Grima is starting to awaken regardless. And once again, you're blatantly ignoring how it went for Loptyr and Grima. Loptyr GAVE blood, whereas Grima was GIVEN blood. You're literally ignoring the fact that the blood rite was done in the complete reverse and thus doesn't function the way Loptyr worked. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Its heavily implied to be same Fane of Roman in the DLC as a reference to Archanea, serenesforest itself says it is the probably the same. Modeled after the Fane of Raman from Archanea–or possibly one and the same. The Fane of Raman has had plenty of thievery problems in both books, what makes you sure it wouldn’t be broken into. Its never said the thieves broke the Starsphere in the DLC either, just that they broke into the temple. Similarly its never stated where the location of the DLC takes place.

It is indeed called Star orb in the dialogue by the NPCs in the script. Only the item's in game name has changed. All Japanese sites are consistent in saying its the same item and that the temple is probably intended to be the Fane of Raman.

Oh my god, are you serious right now? First off, this entire dungeon thing you're holding so much faith in is literally just a DUNGEON ONLY DLC with ZERO story related cases. And the further arguments you tried to make to defend this is pathetic because you use the DLC of Awakening, but you neglect the fact that in those cases, they have story dialogue there. Future Past, Summer Scramble and Festivals, even the EInherjar ones, they are all things that have real scenes with dialogue. Whereas THIS one has nothing of the sort and you just enter a dungeon.

You are blatantly ignoring legit canon because we KNOW that the Starsphere from Archanea was shattered and remained in Archanea. It did not magically go to Valentia completed, shattered again, and went back to Archanea. The fact that you try to run by this line of logic is the saddest thing ever.

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Actually Kaga says the Spheres are made similar to dragon stones. Thus they can't simply be elements from the world. The dragon tribe has the ability to transfer their power and will into dragon stones (what humans refer to as orbs). Direct quote.

I am aware of the case. However, its still stated to hold a fraction of Naga's power. Making it with dark magic and transferring will into orbs does not make it impossible to originate from her. Once again, the powers of the darksphere have powers and magical abilities extremely similar to what Duma, a Divine Dragon, has done. Meaning it isn't even impossible for Naga to use it. In fact, this is likely one of the cases on why transferring her will into the tome was dangerous because turning them evil is very possible. For the Darksphere its even moreso because it holds powerful dark magic. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Your theory makes zero sense.

 

The artwork of Mystery of the Emblem uses several palette swaps, even New Mystery of the Emblem. The lore never contradicts the spheres having ornaments. Heck the DS sprites for it depict it with a stand, while the CG artwork in the DS Remakes doesn’t depict this.

The Light sphere's color changed from yellow to white in Awakening. The entire shape of the shield itself changed without explanation. You can't just dismiss artwork as non-canon just because you don't like it when designs for dragons and items change all the time based off the artist in Fire Emblem. 

It is LITERALLY explained that the Shield of Seals has gone through reforges throughout time. Gotoh even says that the exterior of the shield had changed completely since the first time:

To be honest, it was only recently that I noticed; its exterior had completely changed…

Meaning that by Awakening's time, the exterior once more changed. Its the exact reason why Falchion changed as well. Both hilt of the sword and the exterior of the Shield of Seals, have gone through repeated forging and have made to look different.

And color swap? Really? That's what you cling to? Its just a color change, big whoop. They do it all the time. Not even the same case. They also don't refer to the orbs with color if I recall, but by name or name of its element (star, dark, light, blood, geo or something like that). 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No, Forseti’s wind powers(which match the Sky Dragon in TRS) as opposed to the “God of Light” description of Naga strongly imply he isn’t a Divine Dragon. He never acts like he is one and never refers to Naga as if they're of the same tribe. The other dragon to be described by an element, the Fire God, was indeed a Fire Dragon. His inability and his tomes to get around Loptyr’s defense is consistent with Earth Dragons halving the damage of all non Divine Dragon attackers. There's literally nothing that implies Forseti is Divine. You have no leg to stand on in this argument.

Sky Dragon? Really? We have JUST understood that Divine Dragons have magical powers and such that are not limited to light, as they can use many versions of their magic. God of Light on Naga is because Naga uses the power of light the strongest and even then she has shown to also command the power of time as well. And we're talking about Forseti talking through Lewyn, and he even tries hard not to reveal that he's actually Forseti, but Seliph figured it out, but throughout the time, he's been talking like he was Lewyn, but just a changed man. And for the record, there are NO tribes that hold wind power. The Flying Dragon Tribe are Wyverns, and guess what, Wyverns breathe fire. You can look at FE12 and such for there. 

The tribes are: Divine, Earth, Fire, Ice, Mage, Flying. None of these are wind breath. 

Also, that's not even the case. Forseti's power is inferior to Naga's own. Loptyr's power was too great for Forseti to deal with. The Earth Dragons fought the Divine Dragons, and though there can be arguments made about how the Divine Dragons didn't transform, there are evidence that they did as what Xane mentioned when telling the story. 

And since Divine Dragons solely participated in the war with the Earth Dragons, Forseti having to also be involved would mean that he is also a Divine Dragon.

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

If Divine Dragons could control all elements like a master, then beings like Earth dragons would not be described as their equals and counterparts. Forseti specifically describes the powers of the Earth tribe as unique to them and not like any other Dragon tribe.

No he doesn't. He says that Loptyr holds power from his tribe and describes it as diabolical. And even if I say that Divine Dragons are not limited to merely one element, the fact that Earth Dragons are their equal actually invokes the fact that the Earth Dragons are still that strong that they can match it. Not to mention, the Divine Dragons couldn't even kill the Earth Dragons in the end, and were forced to seal them instead. That already speaks volumes of how powerful they are. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Shadow Dragons never existing before Medeus, Naga’s tome not possessing people, Duma being a Shadow dragon, and your other theories are half assed fanon.

Kaga doesn’t leave details out, if Naga was wounded, he’d have mentioned it. You just squeeze this fanon because you want Grima to be better, you've outright admitted not liking Loptyr as a character. This is fanboy logic at its finest.

Its funny to hear someone who has made repeated canon breaking arguments like Naga’s tome doesn’t possess people, calling someone else’s argument pathetic. Take a good look at yourself in the mirror.

You say you want peace between the new and old players, yet you propose ridiculous retcons for the series, insulting older fans  as you do so. Is this really the actions of someone who wants peace in the fandom? All your aggressive pushing of your fan theories has alienated people from you and caused more rifts in this forum.

My god, you are so petty and cling to literally anything just to get an edge. You're STILL trying to go for all this. 

ANd the worst part is, you STILL never tried to answer my theory. Jotari ended up answering it, and Jotari did in 1 hour what you couldn't even accomplish in the ENTIRE argument for weeks. 

Jotari addressed my theory and actually made a counter that made me realize that the Book of Naga is served more as a direct counter to Loptyr. Loptyr's tome had the thing where it halves all forms of damage. The Falchion is designed ultimately for dragons. Book of Naga ended up being designed to be able to go against Loptyr's tome, much like how Starlight was designed to defeat Imhullu, or Blaggi Sword was meant to counter the Lopt Sword. 

So because of that, I can actually accept that Naga was NOT wounded or crippled, and because Falchion was designed to slay dragons, she couldn't use it against Loptyr because Loptyr was no longer a true dragon, but a dragon possessing a human using his powers. So she opted to make a tome containing her powers to be able to counter that, even though it was risky. So in terms of power, Falchion and Book of Naga can be equal, but they are designed for different things. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by omegaxis1

[omegaxis1]

Also, for the case on Parallel Falchion, the Falchion Chrom had, and the Exalted Falchion, like we've been repeating over and over:

• Chrom's Falchion had its power originally sealed, meaning that its bound to be weaker than it originally was.
• Lucina's Parallel Falchion is stronger than Chrom's but weaker than the Exalted Falchion is because Lucina had only performed a partial Awakening, using 4 of the 5 Gemstones. 
• The Exalted Falchion is the full power of the original Falchion, the one that Marth wielded. They even went as far as to have Marth's Falchion in Echoes be called Exalted Falchion, just to confirm that yes, the Exalted Falchion in Awakening is the same power of the Falchion that Marth originally wielded. But the Exalted Falchion in Awakening merely has this added bonus of being able to seal Grima. 

The case of multiple universes on the Parallel Falchion is pretty irrelevant because its still Falchion, but it merely wasn't able to awaken all its power. Simple as that.

[Armagon]

I just want to point out that everything that Kaga said can't be used as evidence anymore. Sure, he created Fire Emblem, but it's been like a decade since he left IS. Stuff has changed since. Didn't Kaga say that dragons, spirits, and Gods can exist in the same world (which contained Archanea, Valentia, and Jugdral)? Well, thanks to Echoes, that isn't true anymore. Spirits do exist, because Witches need to sactifice their soul to Duma to become one, but actual Gods, like Mila and Duma in Gaiden, don't exist in this continuity anymore (i don't mean Mila and Duma don't exist, they clearly do, they just aren't actual Gods anymore). Even if Kaga were to come out now and say that Mila and Duma are still actual Gods, it wouldn't matter, because the game, and by extension, IS, says otherwise.

Kaga is the creator of Fire Emblem, but he's no longer in control of it's lore (or the series in general).

Now, if IS decides to keep what Kaga said a decade ago, then that's a different story.

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I just want to point out that everything that Kaga said can't be used as evidence anymore. Sure, he created Fire Emblem, but it's been like a decade since he left IS. Stuff has changed since. Didn't Kaga say that dragons, spirits, and Gods can exist in the same world (which contained Archanea, Valentia, and Jugdral)? Well, thanks to Echoes, that isn't true anymore. Spirits do exist, because Witches need to sactifice their soul to Duma to become one, but actual Gods, like Mila and Duma in Gaiden, don't exist in this continuity anymore (i don't mean Mila and Duma don't exist, they clearly do, they just aren't actual Gods anymore). Even if Kaga were to come out now and say that Mila and Duma are still actual Gods, it wouldn't matter, because the game, and by extension, IS, says otherwise.

Kaga is the creator of Fire Emblem, but he's no longer in control of it's lore (or the series in general).

Now, if IS decides to keep what Kaga said a decade ago, then that's a different story.

A part of me wanted to also mention this but I did want to remain true to as much of what Kaga said as possible. 

[Salamud]

Kaga's later work (Tear Ring Saga) had dragons worshipped as gods. So, I wouldn't rule out Duma and Mila being dragons.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Salamud

[Armagon]

8 minutes ago, Salamud said:

Kaga's later work (Tear Ring Saga) had dragons worshipped as gods. So, I wouldn't rule out Duma and Mila not being dragons.

TearRing Saga is basically just Not Fire Emblem. TearRing Saga is it's own series. It shares many similarites with Fire Emblem but it isn't, therefore, nothing from TearRing Saga can be used to theorize in Fire Emblem.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

48 minutes ago, Armagon said:

actual Gods, like Mila and Duma in Gaiden, don't exist in this continuity anymore (i don't mean Mila and Duma don't exist, they clearly do, they just aren't actual Gods anymore).

What is Asheunera/Ashera/Yune?