Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

What is Asheunera/Ashera/Yune?

He was referring to the continuity of Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral, not Tellius, which is a separate universe continuity now. In fact, that's the only continuity that has legit spirits, gods, and dragons, and that's the story that Kaga was never a part of.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

He was referring to the continuity of Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral, not Tellius, which is a separate universe continuity now. In fact, that's the only continuity that has legit spirits, gods, and dragons, and that's the story that Kaga was never a part of.

No, Tellius has so far remained the same continuity as Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral (along with Fates)- for example, Olivia explicitly mentions the ancient Serenes massacre and Priam hails from a continent across the sea; however, 8-4 pretty severely mangled most of the canon connections to Tellius with bad translation of them (for example, changing the Raven Laguz to "evil swans" and insinuating they rather than Begnion Beorc burned the forest down). The same is true of Treehouse and Fates with it's connections.

So this, Chrom mentioning Ashera, Olivia's mistranslated mention of Naesala and Leanne, the allusion that Laguz are the ancestors of Taguel and potentially Manaketes are all worthy of note.

True that Kaga was never a part of Tellius, but Awakening confirmed Tellius was a part of Kaga, with 8-4 fucking up their translation being the only hurdle to this.

 

Elibe and Magvel are so far the continuit(ies) that are up in the air and probably seperate

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

No, Tellius has so far remained the same continuity as Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral (along with Fates)- for example, Olivia explicitly mentions the ancient Serenes massacre and Priam hails from a continent across the sea; however, 8-4 pretty severely mangled most of the canon connections to Tellius with bad translation of them. The same is true of Treehouse and Fates.

So this, Chrom mentioning Ashera, Olivia's mistranslated mention of Naesala and Leanne, the allusion that Laguz are the ancestors of Taguel and potentially Manaketes are all worthy of note.

Where did Olivia mentioned Tellius? From what I recall, the story of Tellius exists as legends, and with the Outrealms, the legends came from other worlds. 

Furthermore, Fates is actually not part of the Awakening continuity. The Before Awakening DLC might have made it seem like it, but it really wasn't. For the first part, there are no legends performed that spoke of the legendary weapons like Yato and such. Naga is known as the most powerful Dragon in the Archanean universe, and Anankos and her don't really know each other personally. The landscape of Jugdral, Archanea, and Valentia don't match up with the continent Fates is on. The Dragon War and degradation also don't make sense since it even goes against how Manaketes function as well, as Manaketes was the solution to the degradation problem, whereas the degradation in Fates was for them to take Astral forms. 

Given how the Outrealms have functions, and there being many universal Annas running around, its very easy for legends to spread by them, as they can easily hope across worlds and spread the legends.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Where did Olivia mentioned Tellius? From what I recall, the story of Tellius exists as legends, and with the Outrealms, the legends came from other worlds. 

Furthermore, Fates is actually not part of the Awakening continuity. The Before Awakening DLC might have made it seem like it, but it really wasn't. For the first part, there are no legends performed that spoke of the legendary weapons like Yato and such. Naga is known as the most powerful Dragon in the Archanean universe, and Anankos and her don't really know each other personally. The landscape of Jugdral, Archanea, and Valentia don't match up with the continent Fates is on. The Dragon War and degradation also don't make sense since it even goes against how Manaketes function as well, as Manaketes was the solution to the degradation problem, whereas the degradation in Fates was for them to take Astral forms. 

Given how the Outrealms have functions, and there being many universal Annas running around, its very easy for legends to spread by them, as they can easily hope across worlds and spread the legends.

Olivia very specifically mentions Tellius in her Japanese supports with donnel, but 8-4 shit the bed pretty badly with this and, having apparently never played Tellius, turned the entire serenes massacre into a fucking joke about swans. Also, points for somehow translating Ravens as "evil swans". Panne also makes it very very clear that Laguz existed on a continent across the sea, the same continent that Priam is implied to come from, and return to in his ending; which is obsensibly Tellius itself.

 

I also want to point out that the Fates continent is quite literally the lower half of Valentia/Valm once you rotate it 90 degrees, that a great disaster (most likely the flood, but merely speculation) completely wiped Hoshido and Nohr off the map, and their histories along with them, and that both Anna in the Japanese version of Fates (her quote, literally saying "All the Heroes of this world are not born yet, and the stories you know will come to pass- you know what I'm implying, don't you?") and to a more subtle degree Intsys confirm that Fates is intended to be the first game in the main timeline; similarly, Owain makes himself a bootstrap paradox, Rhajat reincarnates into Tharja, and Corrin reincarnates into Robin, all of which are very unlikely if not impossible should they occur in different universes.

 

the stunt the first dragons pulled is pretty eerily similar to Loptyr, with "becoming ascended spirits", and the First Dragons aside from that seem to be much more primal than other dragons in the series- hence the name. They did so to escape degeneration, which Loptyr likewise did.

 

The last part is very, very tenuous at best; it basically relies on entire populations being trusting idiots that are willing to take random redheads who may or may not be running con deals at their word enough to worship deities that may or may not exist because, well, why not? Fuck Naga, lets worship this "Ashera" that this Anna provides absolutely no proof whatsoever of besides her own word which we will take her at.

Provide tithes for Ashera to you, Anna? Sure! Take all my money!

 

EDIT: this is probably irrelevant so by all means continue the argument from before this, didn't mean to digress

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Olivia very specifically mentions Tellius in her Japanese supports with donnel, but 8-4 shit the bed pretty badly with this and, having apparently never played Tellius, turned the entire serenes massacre into a fucking joke about swans. Also, points for somehow translating Ravens as "evil swans". Panne also makes it very very clear that Laguz existed on a continent across the sea, the same continent that Priam is implied to come from, and return to in his ending; which is obsensibly Tellius itself.

I also want to point out that the Fates continent is quite literally the lower half of Valentia/Valm once you rotate it 90 degrees, that a great disaster (most likely the flood, but merely speculation) completely wiped Hoshido and Nohr off the map, and their histories along with them, and that both Anna in the Japanese version of Fates (her quote, literally saying "All the Heroes of this world are not born yet, and the stories you know will come to pass- you know what I'm implying, don't you?") and to a more subtle degree Intsys confirm that Fates is intended to be the first game in the main timeline; similarly, Owain makes himself a bootstrap paradox, Rhajat reincarnates into Tharja, and Corrin reincarnates into Robin, all of which are very unlikely if not impossible should they occur in different universes.

the stunt the first dragons pulled is pretty eerily similar to Loptyr, with "becoming ascended spirits", and the First Dragons aside from that seem to be much more primal than other dragons in the series- hence the name. They did so to escape degeneration, which Loptyr likewise did.

The last part is very, very tenuous at best; it basically relies on entire populations being trusting idiots that are willing to take random redheads who may or may not be running con deals at their word enough to worship deities that may or may not exist because, well, why not? Fuck Naga, lets worship this "Ashera" that this Anna provides absolutely no proof whatsoever of besides her own word which we will take her at.

Provide tithes for Ashera to you, Anna? Sure! Take all my money!

EDIT: this is probably irrelevant so by all means continue the argument from before this, didn't mean to digress

Found it. Its based on a song that is learned from legends and such. It wouldn't necessarily have to mean that they are the same world. From Ike's ending, he went to travel other lands, and then with Priam, we learn that Ike is still known as a legend in Awakening's time, but once again, they talk about existences of other worlds, and even in endings, Priam and Walhart are said to travel to other worlds. 

I really don't see it. *have the two images up* Also, that makes it even less likely. Continents don't just rotate 90 degrees like that. That's geographically impossible. And where does Anna say that? 

Aside from personal distaste about the case of Robin having to have been the extremely naive idiot, there are still a lot of inconsistencies with these subtle hints. 

Loptyr utilized a blood pact to escape degradation and to exact vengeance into humans. In Fates, there are no more real dragons, as they are all dead. Technology and magic are already plenty advanced, so it doesn't make sense that they somehow regress in the case. Not to mention, Tellius explains the entire story about the races, and the Tellius continent is the only continent that remains now. For the Great flood is another inconsistency with Fates if its the precursor. 

I dunno, there are just way too many mess of inconsistencies and contradictions in Fates to even connect it to the other stories. If anything, Fates tries to more or less make references to the other stories at best.

[Salamud]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

TearRing Saga is basically just Not Fire Emblem. TearRing Saga is it's own series. It shares many similarites with Fire Emblem but it isn't, therefore, nothing from TearRing Saga can be used to theorize in Fire Emblem.

TRS was started as another game in Marth's world happening around the time of Dark Dragon. It still has the detail of its continent being settled by migrants from a suspciously named Jugd. All considered it's acceptable as a source for any plans Kaga might have had for lore.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

I just want to point out that everything that Kaga said can't be used as evidence anymore. Sure, he created Fire Emblem, but it's been like a decade since he left IS. Stuff has changed since. Didn't Kaga say that dragons, spirits, and Gods can exist in the same world (which contained Archanea, Valentia, and Jugdral)? Well, thanks to Echoes, that isn't true anymore. Spirits do exist, because Witches need to sactifice their soul to Duma to become one, but actual Gods, like Mila and Duma in Gaiden, don't exist in this continuity anymore (i don't mean Mila and Duma don't exist, they clearly do, they just aren't actual Gods anymore). Even if Kaga were to come out now and say that Mila and Duma are still actual Gods, it wouldn't matter, because the game, and by extension, IS, says otherwise.

Kaga is the creator of Fire Emblem, but he's no longer in control of it's lore (or the series in general).

Now, if IS decides to keep what Kaga said a decade ago, then that's a different story.

Duma looks pretty draconic in the original. And was sealed away with a Falchion, the same weapon that was featured as a dragon sealing sword in the previous game. And you don't even have to resort to TearRing saga to see people worshipping dragons as gods. Just look at Jugdral. People can have their own interpretation but for me I'm entirely convinced Duma and Mila were conceived as dragons.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Where did Olivia mentioned Tellius? From what I recall, the story of Tellius exists as legends, and with the Outrealms, the legends came from other worlds. 

Furthermore, Fates is actually not part of the Awakening continuity. The Before Awakening DLC might have made it seem like it, but it really wasn't. For the first part, there are no legends performed that spoke of the legendary weapons like Yato and such. Naga is known as the most powerful Dragon in the Archanean universe, and Anankos and her don't really know each other personally. The landscape of Jugdral, Archanea, and Valentia don't match up with the continent Fates is on. The Dragon War and degradation also don't make sense since it even goes against how Manaketes function as well, as Manaketes was the solution to the degradation problem, whereas the degradation in Fates was for them to take Astral forms. 

Given how the Outrealms have functions, and there being many universal Annas running around, its very easy for legends to spread by them, as they can easily hope across worlds and spread the legends.

Chrom knows of Hoshido and Nohr as being mythical kingdoms in the Before Awakening DLC. So it's as much in the same continuity as the other nonKaga games.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Chrom knows of Hoshido and Nohr as being mystical kingdoms in the Before Awakening DLC. So it's as much in the same continuity as the other nonKaga games.

Yes, but the term mythical or mystical doesn't necessarily mean that its canon to the storyline. Even in real life, there are myths and legends that may or may not be true. Add in how there's even stronger Outrealm connections in Fates than Awakening did, and already the Annas are virtually omniscient and omnipresent being (and in Apotheosis; God), its not unlikely that another Anna would go to the past of Awakening and talk about Hoshido and Nohr. Outrealm Gates go through time and space after all, so they can travel universes and timelines they want to go to.

Wouldn't surprise me if Anna is the true God of the Fire Emblem universe.

[omegaxis1]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Duma looks pretty draconic in the original. And was sealed away with a Falchion, the same weapon that was featured as a dragon sealing sword in the previous game. And you don't even have to resort to TearRing saga to see people worshipping dragons as gods. Just look at Jugdral. People can have their own interpretation but for me I'm entirely convinced Duma and Mila were conceived as dragons.

Yes, but what he's saying is that because Kaga no longer works in IS and thus no longer owns the right to Fire Emblem, he's no longer in control of the lore, and if IS has it that this is how things go, then it doesn't matter what Kaga says about it, because it no longer belongs to him. 

Even if Duma and Mila were supposedly dragons in Gaiden, all the talk of them said that they were gods, never once being called dragons. So people consider Echoes to retcon the case of Duma and Mila being gods. Furthermore, Falchion in Gaiden is now confirmed to be made by Naga as well, just one before the Archanean one. 

[Salamud]

The Twelve Visitors and Loptyr aren't called dragons until GotHW's end, the news being treated as a surprise. Since Duma's appearence in both Gaiden and Echoes is a rotten dragon, I would call him and Mila dragons.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Salamud

[omegaxis1]

30 minutes ago, Salamud said:

The Twelve Visitors and Loptyr aren't called dragons until GotHW's end, the news being treated as a surprise. Since Duma's appearence in both Gaiden and Echoes is a rotten dragon, I would call him and Mila dragons.

The difference there is that they are CALLED dragons. Whereas Duma APPEARS to be a dragon, though even that is slightly debatable since people argue that he really wasn't a dragon in Gaiden. I'm indifferent overall, but in the story of Gaiden, neither Mila nor Duma are ever called or referred to as dragons. But in Genealogy, Loptyr and the gods that descended in the Miracle of Darna are mentioned to be dragons by Lewyn later on.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, Salamud said:

TRS was started as another game in Marth's world happening around the time of Dark Dragon. It still has the detail of its continent being settled by migrants from a suspciously named Jugd. All considered it's acceptable as a source for any plans Kaga might have had for lore.

Yes, it STARTED as another game in Marth's world, but in the end, it ended up being it's own thing. Especially since it was Kaga's first game after he left IS. He couldn't make any lore connections to Marth's world because he'd get sued (he got sued anyway). So again, TRS is it's own thing. It cannot be used to theorize in Fire Emblem.

3 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I also want to point out that the Fates continent is quite literally the lower half of Valentia/Valm once you rotate it 90 degrees, that a great disaster (most likely the flood, but merely speculation) completely wiped Hoshido and Nohr off the map, and their histories along with them, and that both Anna in the Japanese version of Fates (her quote, literally saying "All the Heroes of this world are not born yet, and the stories you know will come to pass- you know what I'm implying, don't you?") and to a more subtle degree Intsys confirm that Fates is intended to be the first game in the main timeline;

Yeah, that's not how geography works. For starters, if you want to link Fatesland to any continent, it would be Tellius, and only because they are the only two continents whose continental map extends past the edges, showing that there is more land out there (regarding Tellius, we know the kingdom of Hatari exists past the maps's edges but we never see it), and also showing that what we see of Tellius and Fatesland is a peninsula. But Fates being the first game in the main timeline makes no sense whatsoever. There are just way too many inconsistencies for that to be possible.

As for Tellius being in the same world as Ylisse in Awakening's Japanese version.......i can't find it. The trivia section of Olivia's page states "In the Japanese version of her support with Donnel, she sings the tale of a raven prince and a heron princess whose homeland was destroyed by a fire" but that's just it. A tale. Nothing about Tellius being in the same world. Kinda like how Hoshido and Nohr are just myths and tales in Ylisse. Looking at the Tellius and Tellius series page, there's no mention of Tellius being in the same world as Ylisse either. And given that the wiki is pretty damn informative about everything that isn't Tokyo Mirage Sessions, i'd have to go with Tellius being in it's own world and not in the Archanea continuity.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes, but the term mythical or mystical doesn't necessarily mean that its canon to the storyline. Even in real life, there are myths and legends that may or may not be true. Add in how there's even stronger Outrealm connections in Fates than Awakening did, and already the Annas are virtually omniscient and omnipresent being (and in Apotheosis; God), its not unlikely that another Anna would go to the past of Awakening and talk about Hoshido and Nohr. Outrealm Gates go through time and space after all, so they can travel universes and timelines they want to go to.

Wouldn't surprise me if Anna is the true God of the Fire Emblem universe.

Yeah, that's why I said "As much as the nonKaga games". It's treated by Awakening the same way it treats Elibe and Tellius. Ie non committal enough as to be open to interpretation.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Jotari

[Emperor Hardin]

On 6/6/2017 at 5:42 AM, omegaxis1 said:

Oh Hardin Hardin Hardin... you basically argue against ANYONE that doesn't follow your line of logic now. 

Once again, that's the issue here. Awakening at one point say that Grima is beginning to slowly awaken from slumber:

Tiki: Here. Take Azure, exalted ones. With it, you possess two of the five Gemstones. Now you must seek out the others and perform the Awakening. Our world must be defended from Grima at all costs!
Chrom: But I'm confused... I thought Grima's power was sealed away.
Tiki: Yes, but ever since, there have been those who would change that. Grima's life force grows even now, and with it, the long shadows of despair.
Lucina: ......
Chrom: When will he return? And where?
Tiki: I cannot know these things. But I can feel his presence... It looms, closer and closer... This task is a heavy burden, but as he of exalted blood, it must fall to you, Chrom.

Then Naga goes and says:

Naga: Alas, Grima cannot be slain. Sleep alone can be your victory. Just as your ancestor put the fell dragon to sleep a millennium ago. But you must weaken him first. Only as the final blow can my power be used to bind his.
Lissa: Isn't there ANY way to destroy him for good?
Naga: There is, perchance, a power that could end Grima. However... 'Twould be his own.
Frederick: ...He has to kill himself?
Naga: Yes. And never would he do so of his own volition. He seeks only to add to his power, and set ruin upon the world. Now come. There is little time...

If all it took was to remove everyone from the Fellblood, then she would have said that, but could note that such a task is impossible if there are too many people with his lineage or something. But no, she says that the ONLY way to kill him is for him to do so himself, and it only happened in the end because Grima screwed himself over by going back in the first place cause he didn't realize that time travel runs on the multiverse theory. 

And Tiki saying that his power and life force are growing stronger could either be a sign that there is a mark holder or that because the millennium is ending, Grima is starting to awaken regardless. And once again, you're blatantly ignoring how it went for Loptyr and Grima. Loptyr GAVE blood, whereas Grima was GIVEN blood. You're literally ignoring the fact that the blood rite was done in the complete reverse and thus doesn't function the way Loptyr worked. 

Oh my god, are you serious right now? First off, this entire dungeon thing you're holding so much faith in is literally just a DUNGEON ONLY DLC with ZERO story related cases. And the further arguments you tried to make to defend this is pathetic because you use the DLC of Awakening, but you neglect the fact that in those cases, they have story dialogue there. Future Past, Summer Scramble and Festivals, even the EInherjar ones, they are all things that have real scenes with dialogue. Whereas THIS one has nothing of the sort and you just enter a dungeon.

You are blatantly ignoring legit canon because we KNOW that the Starsphere from Archanea was shattered and remained in Archanea. It did not magically go to Valentia completed, shattered again, and went back to Archanea. The fact that you try to run by this line of logic is the saddest thing ever.

I am aware of the case. However, its still stated to hold a fraction of Naga's power. Making it with dark magic and transferring will into orbs does not make it impossible to originate from her. Once again, the powers of the darksphere have powers and magical abilities extremely similar to what Duma, a Divine Dragon, has done. Meaning it isn't even impossible for Naga to use it. In fact, this is likely one of the cases on why transferring her will into the tome was dangerous because turning them evil is very possible. For the Darksphere its even moreso because it holds powerful dark magic. 

It is LITERALLY explained that the Shield of Seals has gone through reforges throughout time. Gotoh even says that the exterior of the shield had changed completely since the first time:

To be honest, it was only recently that I noticed; its exterior had completely changed…

Meaning that by Awakening's time, the exterior once more changed. Its the exact reason why Falchion changed as well. Both hilt of the sword and the exterior of the Shield of Seals, have gone through repeated forging and have made to look different.

And color swap? Really? That's what you cling to? Its just a color change, big whoop. They do it all the time. Not even the same case. They also don't refer to the orbs with color if I recall, but by name or name of its element (star, dark, light, blood, geo or something like that). 

Sky Dragon? Really? We have JUST understood that Divine Dragons have magical powers and such that are not limited to light, as they can use many versions of their magic. God of Light on Naga is because Naga uses the power of light the strongest and even then she has shown to also command the power of time as well. And we're talking about Forseti talking through Lewyn, and he even tries hard not to reveal that he's actually Forseti, but Seliph figured it out, but throughout the time, he's been talking like he was Lewyn, but just a changed man. And for the record, there are NO tribes that hold wind power. The Flying Dragon Tribe are Wyverns, and guess what, Wyverns breathe fire. You can look at FE12 and such for there. 

The tribes are: Divine, Earth, Fire, Ice, Mage, Flying. None of these are wind breath. 

Also, that's not even the case. Forseti's power is inferior to Naga's own. Loptyr's power was too great for Forseti to deal with. The Earth Dragons fought the Divine Dragons, and though there can be arguments made about how the Divine Dragons didn't transform, there are evidence that they did as what Xane mentioned when telling the story. 

And since Divine Dragons solely participated in the war with the Earth Dragons, Forseti having to also be involved would mean that he is also a Divine Dragon.

No he doesn't. He says that Loptyr holds power from his tribe and describes it as diabolical. And even if I say that Divine Dragons are not limited to merely one element, the fact that Earth Dragons are their equal actually invokes the fact that the Earth Dragons are still that strong that they can match it. Not to mention, the Divine Dragons couldn't even kill the Earth Dragons in the end, and were forced to seal them instead. That already speaks volumes of how powerful they are. 

My god, you are so petty and cling to literally anything just to get an edge. You're STILL trying to go for all this. 

ANd the worst part is, you STILL never tried to answer my theory. Jotari ended up answering it, and Jotari did in 1 hour what you couldn't even accomplish in the ENTIRE argument for weeks. 

Jotari addressed my theory and actually made a counter that made me realize that the Book of Naga is served more as a direct counter to Loptyr. Loptyr's tome had the thing where it halves all forms of damage. The Falchion is designed ultimately for dragons. Book of Naga ended up being designed to be able to go against Loptyr's tome, much like how Starlight was designed to defeat Imhullu, or Blaggi Sword was meant to counter the Lopt Sword. 

So because of that, I can actually accept that Naga was NOT wounded or crippled, and because Falchion was designed to slay dragons, she couldn't use it against Loptyr because Loptyr was no longer a true dragon, but a dragon possessing a human using his powers. So she opted to make a tome containing her powers to be able to counter that, even though it was risky. So in terms of power, Falchion and Book of Naga can be equal, but they are designed for different things. 

Oh Omegaxis, why don’t you go back to fanfiction.net instead of bothering people on serenesforest with your crazy fan fiction? You’ve completely hijacked this thread instead of creating your own topic or putting all this fanon into a fan fiction. Instead of stopping, all you do is dig yourself deeper and deeper.

Lets see:

* Xane’s ability to human shift is something all Divine Dragons have despite everyone else showing no signs of it.

* Divine Dragons have the powers of all dragons, thus making the dragon tribes less interesting.

* Earth Dragons would take Manakete form to battle Naga with the Falchion before the conflict.

* Naga knew Medeus would turn evil all along despite giving him the position of guarding the table.

* Naga’s tome doesn’t possess people, invented for the sake of belittle FE4’s plot from someone who never played it.

* Naga was wounded in the Miracle of Darna, once again pulled up out of nowhere to make FE13 look better at FE4’s expense.

* Shadow Dragons did not exist before Book 2 despite Gotoh’s words.

* Then when it was proven Shadow Dragons exist, you switched to “Shadow Dragons exist, but  Duma is a Shadow Dragon despite exhibiting no traits of one.”

* Grima is made out of the mind of a degenerated Earth Dragon thus making him “DEEP”

* Grima is made out of Naga’s corpse.

* No non Divine Dragons ever lifted to defend the fledgling humanity despite Salamander, the Fire Dragon having a fatherly relationship with Naga.

Ever consider Naga didn’t want Chrom to do a crazy witch hunt looking for Fellbloods? Its not as if Chrom can just have say “everyone who is a fellbood raise your hand” and then kill them. Going through everyone who could possibly have Fellblood would be a massive undertaking, they could’ve even left the continent. 

If Grima could just resurrect, why did he have all his followers do such dangerous missions to get the Fire Emblem and all its spheres, as well as having them spend a thousand years breeding a vessel. Grima couldn’t do anything, its literally the same case as Loptyr.

No, we have no proof that Divine Dragons have the powers of the other Dragon tribes. Everything indicates their power is based around light. Forseti describes Loptyr’s powers as unique to his tribe and everything supports this outside of the fanfiction you feel entitled to based off one retcon. The whole point is that Divine and Earth Dragons are Ying and Yang, it would entirely break that and turn the lore into a bad fanfic if Divine Dragons could just use all the powers of Earth Dragons.

I”m sure next you’ll be proposing that Swords should beat every weapon on the weapon triangle because Lucina uses a sword.

You are seriously calling someone else’s ideas, you the guy who said all that dumb crap, LOL. You have to be the stupidest and most self righteous troll to ever post on these forums.

Never said DLC was canon but its proof that designs change al the time. You can’t just insult Koya’s artwork and say its non canon, Fire Emblem designs aren't consistent.

Its clearly an alternate universe of Raman temple, even Serenesforest says that. You denying any connection is just further showing you’re a complete idiot with no sense of logic.

The saddest thing ever is yourself, a failed fanfiction writer annoying people on an official topic he hijacked with his idiotic ideas because no one would read the crappy fanfics he wrote. 

Everything shows Kaga intended there to be a Wind Dragon based off all information and lore never stated those were the only tribes on Archanea, intact it shows the opposite.

Echoes: Shadows of Valentia itself proves you entirely wrong as it shows there are more dragon tribes on Archanea then those listed like Dagons who use water breath and live in Thabes labyrinth, thats concrete proof that Fire, Mage, Earth, and Divine are not the only dragons on Archanea. Fafnir’s description also describes it as a ancient long lost type of Dragon.

All of the other Dragon tomes in Jugdral directly correlate to their tribal power, why would Forseti be any different aside from your clinginess to bizarre fanon. 

Duma’s powers aren’t similar to the Darksphere or Shadow Dragons, nor does he have a weakness to Light based powers, like both of the mentioned do. Duma instead uses the magic spirits in the world just like humans do, as well as tentacles and a laser shooting eye.

Not only did the color of the spheres in the Emblem change, the stands disappeared and reappeared. Speaking of which, the figurine on the artwork seems to be connected to the stand.

You can’t just insult the work of someone whose been drawing for Fire Emblem for years just because it doesn’t fit your narrow ideas for fanfiction. You are a disgustingly entitled brat who doesn't respect the history or the people in the franchise.

I’ve also checked the script, there’s zero mission of the Emblem being reforged. The closes there is to that is the art book saying both it and the Falchion have the ability to self-repair.

Citation needed for Divine Dragons solely participating in the war to protect humanity from degenerated dragons. No, your demented mind doesn’t count as a citation.

And then... the divine dragon Naga, strongest of them all, waged a war for humanity. It was a fierce battle, but Naga emerged victorious in the end, and sealed the earth dragons below Dolhr, in a deep sleep. 

Narga, the king of the Divine Dragons, the strongest of all dragons, commanded his tribe to begin a battle to protect the humans.

There’s no mention anywhere that only Divine Dragons took part, just that they were the main combatants which is entirely different from no other dragons participating at all. Bantu himself is described as one of Naga's most faithful servants.

Xane’s words about humans backstabbing Manaketes wouldn’t apply if Divine Dragons were the only ones who tried to protect humanity as you repeatedly claim. Mila and Duma’s champions in Echoes aren’t Divine Dragons either, showing again the Divine Dragons do have members of other tribes work for them. 

Canon says virtually all Divine Dragons died in the war, making it almost impossible that people like Forseti are Divine Dragons which you claim is true with no basis or even FE4 experience. I love how you repeatedly claim Naga being unwounded in the war would make the Earth Dragons look bad, but also push many Divine Dragons survived them. Seriously, this is really all about your Awakening fanboyism. 

Salamander the Fire Dragon in interviews is stated to have the same relationship with Naga that Bantu did with Tiki, making Naga like a stepchild to him. So your fanfiction canon says Salamander wouldn’t lift a finger to help Naga, his adopted daughter?

Even if IS did those retcons you want. They’d infuriate the fandom and make the series less interesting for all but braindead writers of bad fan fiction.

All Dragons have interesting powers, oh retcon says Divine dragons have the powers of all dragons and can do them all better.

Non Divine Dragon Manaketes tried to protect humanity making humanities rejection of them more shocking, oh retcon says only Divine Dragons participated.

Non Divine Dragons were at the miracle of Darna. Oh retcon, says only Divine Dragons participated.

Medeus was Naga’s trusted friend. Oh retcon, says he’d always turn bad and Naga knew it all along.

“Yet Loptyr's clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe.” 

Again Forseti states most diabolic power of the entire tribe(IE: the entire dragon race), it is made 100% clear that the powers of the Earth Dragons are unique to them among the Dragon tribes. Try playing the game instead of going off what you made up.

I mention it because its proof you come up with crazy theories with no basis or legs to stand on at random. 

No you didn’t listen to me because of your stubborn bias to ignore all the facts I was giving you. If I had written and posted what Jotari put, you would’ve ignored it just as you ignored stuff like Duma not being a Shadow Dragon simply because it didn’t fit your shallow ideas for fan fiction. Even there you refused to consider the possibility of the book of Naga being more powerful then the original Falchion due to your Awakening fanboyism demanding that it always look better.

You literally just waltzed into this thread then hijacked it by out of the blue via pushing crazy groundless theories about games you never played like Loptyr being weaker then Naga and Naga’s tome not possessing people. This was all while claiming because of the plot change with Duma, your ideas for various bizarre retcons are canon under your strange logic. 

Seriously all you have to do is go here or here, click on the box saying “New topic”, then put all your deranged canon defiling ideas in there.

At this point, I’m starting to think you’re just a forum troll looking to start trouble. I’m not even responding to your next post in this thread, you’ve done enough damage to everyone's braincells.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

* Xane’s ability to human shift is something all Divine Dragons have despite everyone else showing no signs of it.

* Divine Dragons have the powers of all dragons, thus making the dragon tribes less interesting.

* Earth Dragons would take Manakete form to battle Naga with the Falchion before the conflict.

* Naga knew Medeus would turn evil all along despite giving him the position of guarding the table.

* Naga’s tome doesn’t possess people, invented for the sake of belittle FE4’s plot from someone who never played it.

* Naga was wounded in the Miracle of Darna, once again pulled up out of nowhere to make FE13 look better at FE4’s expense.

* Shadow Dragons did not exist before Book 2 despite Gotoh’s words.

* Then when it was proven Shadow Dragons exist, you switched to “Shadow Dragons exist, but  Duma is a Shadow Dragon despite exhibiting no traits of one.”

* Grima is made out of the mind of a degenerated Earth Dragon thus making him “DEEP”

* Grima is made out of Naga’s corpse.

Eh? Isn't that true though?  Tiki (and Nagi) can use the all dragon stones to transform into any dragon type she wants in all the Archanea games, while Bantu is locked to fire stones.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Eh? Isn't that true though?  Tiki (and Nagi) can use the all dragon stones to transform into any dragon type she wants in all the Archanea games, while Bantu is locked to fire stones.

Last post in this topic, but everyone can use all stones but the Divinestone and Earthstone which are locked to Tiki/Nagi and Medeus respectively. 

In the SNES original, Bantu was prevented from using other stones, but Tiki gained less stats when using the Firestone.

In the accompanying Card game, all Dragonstones were locked to their tribe. Thus I'm inclined to say using dragon stones outside of tribe is mostly a game mechanic rather then a story thing.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Last post in this topic, but everyone can use all stones but the Divinestone and Earthstone which are locked to Tiki/Nagi and Medeus respectively. 

In the SNES original, Bantu was prevented from using other stones, but Tiki gained less stats when using the Firestone.

In the accompanying Card game, all Dragonstones were locked to their tribe. Thus I'm inclined to say using dragon stones outside of tribe is mostly a game mechanic rather then a story thing.

I'd be more inclined to think the card game imposed the restriction for gameplay reasons. And while I'd say it's likely true that enemy manaketes can use both Fire and Mage stones, the demonstrable truth of what you're allowed to do in the game actively prevents your fire dragon from becoming any other dragon while freely allows divine dragons to become other types. I don't think that's something that can be dismissed so easily.

On the other hand dragon stones are described in dialogue in a way that makes it seem like they are a personal artifact linked to a specific dragon. Gotoh and Xane can't transform because they lost or threw away their dragon stones. Trading one to them doesn't give them the ability to become a dragon again. So maybe you have a point but I think the case is ambiguous enough that we can't say for sure either way.

 

[RJWalker]

The lore makes it very clear that manaketes have their one specific dragonstone and that's all they get for their whole lives. This detail had been consistent in all Archanea games, even Awakening.

Also yeah, Upheaval/Megaquake it's clearly not a draconic power since we know elemental spirits exists and they kept the dialogue where the user (even Duma) clearly calls out to the earth spirits in Shadows of Valentia. So that's not Duma's power, he's merely using the earth spirits by calling out to them.

[omegaxis1]

I can literally see now that it is literally pointless in arguing with you because you refuse to listen to anything I say or even try to comprehend anything, and keep loving to throw fanfiction into this and now you talk about how I "hijacked" this thread, when I did no such thing. I said one thing, you argued against it, and I countered, and the cycle went on. But you stopped being a decent discussion and have the worst arguments because you're an FE4 fanboy. 

You didn't ever make a single real counter to what I said or my theories or even actually addressed them, but still clung to your bullshit excuses like a petty child. And as someone already mentioned, Kaga's words no longer mean anything. He's no longer in IS, so his lore is now under the control of others, not him. 

[omegaxis1]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'd be more inclined to think the card game imposed the restriction for gameplay reasons. And while I'd say it's likely true that enemy manaketes can use both Fire and Mage stones, the demonstrable truth of what you're allowed to do in the game actively prevents your fire dragon from becoming any other dragon while freely allows divine dragons to become other types. I don't think that's something that can be dismissed so easily.

On the other hand dragon stones are described in dialogue in a way that makes it seem like they are a personal artifact linked to a specific dragon. Gotoh and Xane can't transform because they lost or threw away their dragon stones. Trading one to them doesn't give them the ability to become a dragon again. So maybe you have a point but I think the case is ambiguous enough that we can't say for sure either way.

The lore kind says that Dragonstones are the powers of the dragons themselves that are sealed away. Menaing that dragonstones only work for the specific dragon. Gameplay talks with how there are multiple stones we can use/buy, but really, the story goes that they only have the one stone, because it holds their own power. Hence why when Gotoh and Xane threw their stones away, they can't transform, because the stones they are given aren't THEIR stones in particular.

[TheWerdna]

22 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Ever consider Naga didn’t want Chrom to do a crazy witch hunt looking for Fellbloods? Its not as if Chrom can just have say “everyone who is a fellbood raise your hand” and then kill them. Going through everyone who could possibly have Fellblood would be a massive undertaking, they could’ve even left the continent. 

If Grima could just resurrect, why did he have all his followers do such dangerous missions to get the Fire Emblem and all its spheres, as well as having them spend a thousand years breeding a vessel. Grima couldn’t do anything, its literally the same case as Loptyr.

No, we have no proof that Divine Dragons have the powers of the other Dragon tribes. Everything indicates their power is based around light. Forseti describes Loptyr’s powers as unique to his tribe and everything supports this outside of the fanfiction you feel entitled to based off one retcon. The whole point is that Divine and Earth Dragons are Ying and Yang, it would entirely break that and turn the lore into a bad fanfic if Divine Dragons could just use all the powers of Earth Dragons.

I”m sure next you’ll be proposing that Swords should beat every weapon on the weapon triangle because Lucina uses a sword.

You are seriously calling someone else’s ideas, you the guy who said all that dumb crap, LOL. You have to be the stupidest and most self righteous troll to ever post on these forums.

Never said DLC was canon but its proof that designs change al the time. You can’t just insult Koya’s artwork and say its non canon, Fire Emblem designs aren't consistent.

Its clearly an alternate universe of Raman temple, even Serenesforest says that. You denying any connection is just further showing you’re a complete idiot with no sense of logic.

The saddest thing ever is yourself, a failed fanfiction writer annoying people on an official topic he hijacked with his idiotic ideas because no one would read the crappy fanfics he wrote. 

Everything shows Kaga intended there to be a Wind Dragon based off all information and lore never stated those were the only tribes on Archanea, intact it shows the opposite.

Echoes: Shadows of Valentia itself proves you entirely wrong as it shows there are more dragon tribes on Archanea then those listed like Dagons who use water breath and live in Thabes labyrinth, thats concrete proof that Fire, Mage, Earth, and Divine are not the only dragons on Archanea. Fafnir’s description also describes it as a ancient long lost type of Dragon.

All of the other Dragon tomes in Jugdral directly correlate to their tribal power, why would Forseti be any different aside from your clinginess to bizarre fanon. 

Duma’s powers aren’t similar to the Darksphere or Shadow Dragons, nor does he have a weakness to Light based powers, like both of the mentioned do. Duma instead uses the magic spirits in the world just like humans do, as well as tentacles and a laser shooting eye.

Not only did the color of the spheres in the Emblem change, the stands disappeared and reappeared. Speaking of which, the figurine on the artwork seems to be connected to the stand.

You can’t just insult the work of someone whose been drawing for Fire Emblem for years just because it doesn’t fit your narrow ideas for fanfiction. You are a disgustingly entitled brat who doesn't respect the history or the people in the franchise.

I’ve also checked the script, there’s zero mission of the Emblem being reforged. The closes there is to that is the art book saying both it and the Falchion have the ability to self-repair.

Citation needed for Divine Dragons solely participating in the war to protect humanity from degenerated dragons. No, your demented mind doesn’t count as a citation.

And then... the divine dragon Naga, strongest of them all, waged a war for humanity. It was a fierce battle, but Naga emerged victorious in the end, and sealed the earth dragons below Dolhr, in a deep sleep. 

Narga, the king of the Divine Dragons, the strongest of all dragons, commanded his tribe to begin a battle to protect the humans.

There’s no mention anywhere that only Divine Dragons took part, just that they were the main combatants which is entirely different from no other dragons participating at all. Bantu himself is described as one of Naga's most faithful servants.

Xane’s words about humans backstabbing Manaketes wouldn’t apply if Divine Dragons were the only ones who tried to protect humanity as you repeatedly claim. Mila and Duma’s champions in Echoes aren’t Divine Dragons either, showing again the Divine Dragons do have members of other tribes work for them. 

Canon says virtually all Divine Dragons died in the war, making it almost impossible that people like Forseti are Divine Dragons which you claim is true with no basis or even FE4 experience. I love how you repeatedly claim Naga being unwounded in the war would make the Earth Dragons look bad, but also push many Divine Dragons survived them. Seriously, this is really all about your Awakening fanboyism. 

Salamander the Fire Dragon in interviews is stated to have the same relationship with Naga that Bantu did with Tiki, making Naga like a stepchild to him. So your fanfiction canon says Salamander wouldn’t lift a finger to help Naga, his adopted daughter?

Even if IS did those retcons you want. They’d infuriate the fandom and make the series less interesting for all but braindead writers of bad fan fiction.

All Dragons have interesting powers, oh retcon says Divine dragons have the powers of all dragons and can do them all better.

Non Divine Dragon Manaketes tried to protect humanity making humanities rejection of them more shocking, oh retcon says only Divine Dragons participated.

Non Divine Dragons were at the miracle of Darna. Oh retcon, says only Divine Dragons participated.

Medeus was Naga’s trusted friend. Oh retcon, says he’d always turn bad and Naga knew it all along.

“Yet Loptyr's clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe.” 

Again Forseti states most diabolic power of the entire tribe(IE: the entire dragon race), it is made 100% clear that the powers of the Earth Dragons are unique to them among the Dragon tribes. Try playing the game instead of going off what you made up.

I mention it because its proof you come up with crazy theories with no basis or legs to stand on at random. 

No you didn’t listen to me because of your stubborn bias to ignore all the facts I was giving you. If I had written and posted what Jotari put, you would’ve ignored it just as you ignored stuff like Duma not being a Shadow Dragon simply because it didn’t fit your shallow ideas for fan fiction. Even there you refused to consider the possibility of the book of Naga being more powerful then the original Falchion due to your Awakening fanboyism demanding that it always look better.

You literally just waltzed into this thread then hijacked it by out of the blue via pushing crazy groundless theories about games you never played like Loptyr being weaker then Naga and Naga’s tome not possessing people. This was all while claiming because of the plot change with Duma, your ideas for various bizarre retcons are canon under your strange logic. 

Seriously all you have to do is go here or here, click on the box saying “New topic”, then put all your deranged canon defiling ideas in there.

At this point, I’m starting to think you’re just a forum troll looking to start trouble. I’m not even responding to your next post in this thread, you’ve done enough damage to everyone's braincells.

 

So, as another Awakening fanboy (admitted, I mean look at my profile pic for god's sake), I have to agree that you do have some solid point here.

In regards to Grima's resurrection I agree fully: the actions of himself and his servants only make sense if he needs fellbloods to stick around. Otherwise the narrative would completely fall apart and nothing would make any sense.

I also agree in regard to Duma's powers not being the same as a Earth Dragon. While on the surface they seem similar, Duma's powers more seem to be a perversion of life magic (fitting into his overall visual theme of decay and death: very fitting for a corrupted Divine Dragon) and normal magic just like that of humans. Granted, as a powerful dragon, his magic seems to be far far far more powerful than a human's, but that doesn't seem to be at all because he inherently has those powers.

The whole bit of the Fire Emblem changing is something I must admit that Omega is correct in that it is "technically" possible that it was reforged. However, considering Falchion's blade has changed shape as well between designed (which unlike the hilt and guard, which Awakening supported mentioned have been reforged, they specifically point out that the blade itself has never changed) that is more likely to be chalked up to design changes. Yes, its possible, but with zero evidence other than an art change, this idea is entirely an "Its possible I guess, but there is no evidence to support it"

As for the whole dragon tribes thing, and the which ones did what and when, I honestly think this is something we will need to a remake of FE4 to clear up. A lot of this right now it left ambigous with stuff like the tribes of the members at the Miracle of Darna being left up in  the air. I can see it going either way when it comes to Forseti at the very least. While yes, I do agree that originally he was likely intended to be a Wind Dragon, I wouldn't put it past a remake just to make him a Divine Dragon rather than explain there being another never mentioned tribe.

 

 

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, TheWerdna said:

 

So, as another Awakening fanboy (admitted, I mean look at my profile pic for god's sake), I have to agree that you do have some solid point here.

In regards to Grima's resurrection I agree fully: the actions of himself and his servants only make sense if he needs fellbloods to stick around. Otherwise the narrative would completely fall apart and nothing would make any sense.

I also agree in regard to Duma's powers not being the same as a Earth Dragon. While on the surface they seem similar, Duma's powers more seem to be a perversion of life magic (fitting into his overall visual theme of decay and death: very fitting for a corrupted Divine Dragon) and normal magic just like that of humans. Granted, as a powerful dragon, his magic seems to be far far far more powerful than a human's, but that doesn't seem to be at all because he inherently has those powers.

The whole bit of the Fire Emblem changing is something I must admit that Omega is correct in that it is "technically" possible that it was reforged. However, considering Falchion's blade has changed shape as well between designed (which unlike the hilt and guard, which Awakening supported mentioned have been reforged, they specifically point out that the blade itself has never changed) that is more likely to be chalked up to design changes. Yes, its possible, but with zero evidence other than an art change, this idea is entirely an "Its possible I guess, but there is no evidence to support it"

As for the whole dragon tribes thing, and the which ones did what and when, I honestly think this is something we will need to a remake of FE4 to clear up. A lot of this right now it left ambigous with stuff like the tribes of the members at the Miracle of Darna being left up in  the air. I can see it going either way when it comes to Forseti at the very least. While yes, I do agree that originally he was likely intended to be a Wind Dragon, I wouldn't put it past a remake just to make him a Divine Dragon rather than explain there being another never mentioned tribe.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with liking Awakening, no worries.

Well IS did continue to develop the unused water dragons from FE3 in Echoes. While its possible, I don't imagine they'd abandon the wind Dragon idea personally. Some have also proposed Forseti might be a Ice Dragon, noting the tendency for Ice Tomes to be put it into the Wind category.

[TheWerdna]

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There's nothing wrong with liking Awakening, no worries.

Well IS did continue to develop the unused water dragons from FE3 in Echoes. While its possible, I don't imagine they'd abandon the wind Dragon idea personally. Some have also proposed Forseti might be a Ice Dragon, noting the tendency for Ice Tomes to be put it into the Wind category.

My point was really more at this point I think the whole argument about this is rather stupid, since there are no concrete answers on this topic beyond intentions of a creator no longer working on the game, meaning that its possible for IS to do basically anything regarding it at this point and really we just need to wait and see. Its been going back and forward with no answers to be had for god knows how many posts now, and just... in the end of the day we don't know.

Edited June 20, 2017 by TheWerdna

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

 

So, as another Awakening fanboy (admitted, I mean look at my profile pic for god's sake), I have to agree that you do have some solid point here.

In regards to Grima's resurrection I agree fully: the actions of himself and his servants only make sense if he needs fellbloods to stick around. Otherwise the narrative would completely fall apart and nothing would make any sense.

I also agree in regard to Duma's powers not being the same as a Earth Dragon. While on the surface they seem similar, Duma's powers more seem to be a perversion of life magic (fitting into his overall visual theme of decay and death: very fitting for a corrupted Divine Dragon) and normal magic just like that of humans. Granted, as a powerful dragon, his magic seems to be far far far more powerful than a human's, but that doesn't seem to be at all because he inherently has those powers.

The whole bit of the Fire Emblem changing is something I must admit that Omega is correct in that it is "technically" possible that it was reforged. However, considering Falchion's blade has changed shape as well between designed (which unlike the hilt and guard, which Awakening supported mentioned have been reforged, they specifically point out that the blade itself has never changed) that is more likely to be chalked up to design changes. Yes, its possible, but with zero evidence other than an art change, this idea is entirely an "Its possible I guess, but there is no evidence to support it"

As for the whole dragon tribes thing, and the which ones did what and when, I honestly think this is something we will need to a remake of FE4 to clear up. A lot of this right now it left ambigous with stuff like the tribes of the members at the Miracle of Darna being left up in  the air. I can see it going either way when it comes to Forseti at the very least. While yes, I do agree that originally he was likely intended to be a Wind Dragon, I wouldn't put it past a remake just to make him a Divine Dragon rather than explain there being another never mentioned tribe.

 

 

I think a case could be made for Forseti being an Ice Dragon given the snowy association Silesia has. Besides we could do with some more ice dragons. Especially in Archanea where they're all feral.

[RJWalker]

Coule the Wyvern tribe be a type of Wind dragon? Wyverns stll breathe fire so it doesn't work but their excellent flight capablities giving them so much movement is the most notable aspects of wyverns.