Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[Interdimensional Observer]

Has it not dawned on ye who argue that thou art the warring Dragons that you speak of? Thy conflict hath become long in the tooth, and as bitter as the ire of the Earth Dragons.

 

On 6/19/2017 at 0:28 AM, Emperor Hardin said:

Divine Dragons have the powers of all dragons, thus making the dragon tribes less interesting.

Not sure if by this you mean Naga couldn't have created the Darksphere (and possibly Geosphere). If you do- I ask you to look at Gotoh for a moment. In humanoid form Gotoh, a Divine Dragon by nature, can use any kind of tome without a problem- why he joins with Swarm and Thoron of all things- Darkness and Thunder- not Light (though he does pack two healing staffs too). A Divine Dragon, or presumably any Dragon, like an elementally neutral human, can use any kind of magic if they put in the effort. And just because Naga could use make a really powerful artifact with Dark Magic, doesn't mean that she had to give her flesh and soul to it.

5 hours ago, RJWalker said:

Coule the Wyvern tribe be a type of Wind dragon? Wyverns stll breathe fire so it doesn't work but their excellent flight capablities giving them so much movement is the most notable aspects of wyverns.

That's always been what I've assumed. If all Dragons have to have an element, Wind (or pure Physical in contrast to pure Magical Mage Dragons) would make most sense for Wyverns.

[omegaxis1]

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That's always been what I've assumed. If all Dragons have to have an element, Wind (or pure Physical in contrast to pure Magical Mage Dragons) would make most sense for Wyverns.

Wyverns are regarded as the "Flying" tribe. Given that they breathe fire, its unlikely they are wind. The Flying Tribe is regarded as the weakest tribe, which is why they are the ONLY tribe that continues to successfully breed and have some form of understanding still and not merely raging beasts. The degeneration didn't affect them as strongly.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Is Wind Breath really necessary? I don't recall Earth Dragons heaving boulders and mudslides.

Wyverns as the weakest I could see being the case though.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Is Wind Breath really necessary? I don't recall Earth Dragons heaving boulders and mudslides.

Wyverns as the weakest I could see being the case though.

True, but the case of Forseti being a Wind Dragon is because he made a Wind Tome, but if Wind Dragons are the Flying Tribe and they breathe fire, it kind of makes little sense on Forseti being a creating a Wind Tome. And Forseti's tome is said to be extremely powerful, as are the other weapons. It's highly unlikely that the Flying Tribe could have that much power when Wyverns can be more easily subdued and tamed by humans, something that the other Tribes don't. 

[Emperor Hardin]

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not sure if by this you mean Naga couldn't have created the Darksphere (and possibly Geosphere). If you do- I ask you to look at Gotoh for a moment. In humanoid form Gotoh, a Divine Dragon by nature, can use any kind of tome without a problem- why he joins with Swarm and Thoron of all things- Darkness and Thunder- not Light (though he does pack two healing staffs too). A Divine Dragon, or presumably any Dragon, like an elementally neutral human, can use any kind of magic if they put in the effort. And just because Naga could use make a really powerful artifact with Dark Magic, doesn't mean that she had to give her flesh and soul to it.

Gotoh is using the elements sealed in the tome for the magic he uses rather then his own essence.

According to Kaga's released material, the spheres are made of dragonstones.

9 hours ago, RJWalker said:

Coule the Wyvern tribe be a type of Wind dragon? Wyverns stll breathe fire so it doesn't work but their excellent flight capablities giving them so much movement is the most notable aspects of wyverns.

Berwick Saga did give Wyverns, wind breath. Its also possible their use of Fire Breath in FE3 was a cost saving measure, at least originally.

Mage Dragons use Fire Breath for example, when their breath in FE1 was unique to them.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

According to Kaga's released material, the spheres are made of dragonstones.

Then I concede to the evidence.

Though the question then becomes how did Naga get the Spheres. The powers of Light, Life, and the cosmos (Star) I can all see as being derived from Divinestones. Geo and Shadow seem to fall in the domain of the Earth-Shadow Tribe though, so my guess, given Medeus didn't yield their stone and they were the only Earth to stay within the Divine-led pro-Manakete coalition (correct?), is that Naga robbed some powerful Earth/Shadows of their power after killing them.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

Then I concede to the evidence.

Though the question then becomes how did Naga get the Spheres. The powers of Light, Life, and the cosmos (Star) I can all see as being derived from Divinestones. Geo and Shadow seem to fall in the domain of the Earth-Shadow Tribe though, so my guess, given Medeus didn't yield their stone and they were the only Earth to stay within the Divine-led pro-Manakete coalition (correct?), is that Naga robbed some powerful Earth/Shadows of their power after killing them.

Not really hard evidence at this point. We forget that Kaga's words can't really hold much meaning as Armagon pointed out, since Kaga no longer works for IS since FE4 I believe, so he's no longer in control over the lore in Fire Emblem. I usually wouldn't use that, but since Armagon already said it, might as well.

Some implications go that the orbs always belonged to the Divine Dragons. Another implication that it was created alongside the Shield of Seals. And Tiki says in Awakening that the orbs all contain a portion of Naga's power. 

[Emperor Hardin]

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Then I concede to the evidence.

Though the question then becomes how did Naga get the Spheres. The powers of Light, Life, and the cosmos (Star) I can all see as being derived from Divinestones. Geo and Shadow seem to fall in the domain of the Earth-Shadow Tribe though, so my guess, given Medeus didn't yield their stone and they were the only Earth to stay within the Divine-led pro-Manakete coalition (correct?), is that Naga robbed some powerful Earth/Shadows of their power after killing them.

Remember the Dragon tribes were all one empire until recently. Its possible that the spheres were forged from those times.

As for fans, bad newcomer fans, are those who feel entitled to insult major people in the series for the sake of their head canons, while ignoring new material as well if it doesn't go with their ideas. Good newcomer fans enjoy new material while showing respect to the original works as well.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Remember the Dragon tribes were all one empire until recently.

As for people like Omegaxis1, they're pretty much an example of the bad  fans, as they feel entitled to insult major people in the series for the sake of their head canons, while ignoring new material as well if it doesn't go with their ideas. Good newcomer fans enjoy new material while showing respect to the original works as well.

Okay Hardin, that's it. You might hate my guts, and I cannot say that I have much respect for you. But I have not ONCE insulted you beyond calling you petty, but you go and do everything you can to constantly insult everything about me, even insulting any fics I have written when you don't know a goddamn thing about me. 

If anyone is being horrible here, it's you. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Remember the Dragon tribes were all one empire until recently.

True, in which case Geo and Shadow, or the ingredients used to make them at least, could have been gifts from the Earths back when times were good and everyone was friendly. What's a better way to show deep bonds between the dragon tribes than handing over a concentrated fragment of your essential power?

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Okay Hardin, that's it. You might hate my guts, and I cannot say that I have much respect for you. But I have not ONCE insulted you beyond calling you petty, but you go and do everything you can to constantly insult everything about me, even insulting any fics I have written when you don't know a goddamn thing about me. 

If anyone is being horrible here, it's you. 

You've insulted the artists, Kaga, and everyone whose disagreed with you.

Its fine to have head canons, but its another thing to feel your ideas have higher weight then the people who work in the series. 

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

True, in which case Geo and Shadow, or the ingredients used to make them at least, could have been gifts from the Earths back when times were good and everyone was friendly. What's a better way to show deep bonds between the dragon tribes than handing over a concentrated fragment of your essential power?

That would indeed make a lot of sense, an ancient sign of unity among the Dragon tribes.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

True, in which case Geo and Shadow, or the ingredients used to make them at least, could have been gifts from the Earths back when times were good and everyone was friendly. What's a better way to show deep bonds between the dragon tribes than handing over a concentrated fragment of your essential power?

The dragons were never a single empire. All the Tribes were separate. Medeus was the Earth Dragon Prince, with Naga as Divine Dragon King. If they were all a single empire, the hierarchy wouldn't function like that. The tribes used to live together in Archanea peacefully, known as the golden age of dragons. 

Also, if that were the case, then why weren't there anything from the Fire, Ice, Mage, or Flying Dragons for the Orbs? 

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

You've insulted the artists, Kaga, and everyone whose disagreed with you.

Its fine to have head canons, but its another thing to feel your ideas have higher weight then the people who work in the series. 

Hardin, how many people do you think have been going against you more lately? Literally someone even went as far as to say that everything you say about "Kaga says this" and that are moot because Kaga no longer works for IS. Which is true. Kaga doesn't work for IS and thus no longer owns any rights to it. His words no longer hold any weight anymore. 

Also, for the record, I never felt that what I said held more weight or I'm some godsend speaker and what I say goes. But had you actually done what Jotari did and actually LISTENED to what I was saying and actually addressing my theory and giving a proper counter, we could have avoided this entire mess. But you didn't. Did you even read the conclusion that we came up with about why Naga made Book of Naga over another Falchion? 

And none of that excuses by how insulting you were being. You resorted to insulting everything about me whereas I didn't stoop that low.

[Interdimensional Observer]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, if that were the case, then why weren't there anything from the Fire, Ice, Mage, or Flying Dragons for the Orbs? 

14 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

We don't have any real evidence for anything here, but if I had to hypothesize, it'd be the Geosphere contains the essence of Earth + all the other Anima elements (Fire, Ice and Wind included). Earth just so happens to be the predominant element in the mixture. As for the Mage Dragons, Life or Star would contain some Mage power plus whatever else I speculate.

If Earth = Anima as a whole, then the Spheres represent what, retrospectively with FE4, are the basic types of magic in FE. Anima, Light, Dark, and Heal (Staffs), with Star representing who knows what (non-healing staffs like Hammerne and Warp?).

Edited June 20, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

We don't have any real evidence for anything here, but if I had to hypothesize, it'd be the Geosphere contains the essence of Earth + all the other Anima elements (Fire, Ice and Wind included). Earth just so happens to be the predominant element in the mixture. As for the Mage Dragons, Life or Star would contain some Mage power plus whatever else I speculate.

If Earth = Anima as a whole, then the Spheres represent what, retrospectively with FE4, would becomes is basic types of magic in FE. Anima, Light, Dark, and Heal (Staffs), with Star representing who knows what (non-healing staffs like Hammerne and Warp?).

That's the entire issue though. All we've been making are essentially theories on their origins. We don't have any direct understanding on the workings to know for sure how they came to existence. 

I do like the aspect of the multiple tribes having a hand around the forging, but that leaves the issue as to why they would all belong to the Divine Dragons in the end. Like I said, some implications said that Divine Dragons always had it, I believe Gotoh said it as how it's been guarded or belonged to the Divine Dragons for a long time, and then Tiki says in Awakening that the 5 Gemstones all hold a fragment of Naga's powers. 

There's far too many inconsistencies in the info. 

[Emperor Hardin]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The dragons were never a single empire. All the Tribes were separate. Medeus was the Earth Dragon Prince, with Naga as Divine Dragon King. If they were all a single empire, the hierarchy wouldn't function like that. The tribes used to live together in Archanea peacefully, known as the golden age of dragons. 

Also, if that were the case, then why weren't there anything from the Fire, Ice, Mage, or Flying Dragons for the Orbs? 

Hardin, how many people do you think have been going against you more lately? Literally someone even went as far as to say that everything you say about "Kaga says this" and that are moot because Kaga no longer works for IS. Which is true. Kaga doesn't work for IS and thus no longer owns any rights to it. His words no longer hold any weight anymore. 

Also, for the record, I never felt that what I said held more weight or I'm some godsend speaker and what I say goes. But had you actually done what Jotari did and actually LISTENED to what I was saying and actually addressing my theory and giving a proper counter, we could have avoided this entire mess. But you didn't. Did you even read the conclusion that we came up with about why Naga made Book of Naga over another Falchion? 

And none of that excuses by how insulting you were being. You resorted to insulting everything about me whereas I didn't stoop that low.

FE3 and FE12's ending gives a timeline mentioning a point in which all Dragon tribes were one empire. Again, you need to have played the games to claim knowledge. You not playing it is why you make such brazenly wrong claims.

How do you know there aren't any from the other tribes?

There you go insulting me and Kaga again. Just because Kaga doesn't work for IS, doesn't mean his published work aren't canon, the only thing from Kaga that can be called non canon is unreleased work. Echoes shows they're still going off Kaga's works, even including Sea Dragons.

You have insulted me constantly throughout the thread, I hope you don't seriously think that you haven't done so.

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

We don't have any real evidence for anything here, but if I had to hypothesize, it'd be the Geosphere contains the essence of Earth + all the other Anima elements (Fire, Ice and Wind included). Earth just so happens to be the predominant element in the mixture. As for the Mage Dragons, Life or Star would contain some Mage power plus whatever else I speculate.

If Earth = Anima as a whole, then the Spheres represent what, retrospectively with FE4, are the basic types of magic in FE. Anima, Light, Dark, and Heal (Staffs), with Star representing who knows what (non-healing staffs like Hammerne and Warp?).

Quite possibly.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

FE3 and FE12's ending gives a timeline mentioning a point in which all Dragon tribes were one empire. Again, you need to have played the games to claim knowledge. You not playing it is why you make such brazenly wrong claims.

How do you know there aren't any from the other tribes?

There you go insulting me and Kaga again. Just because Kaga doesn't work for IS, doesn't mean his published work aren't canon, the only thing from Kaga that can be called non canon is unreleased work. Echoes shows they're still going off Kaga's works, even including Sea Dragons.

You have insulted me constantly throughout the thread, I hope you don't seriously think that you haven't done so.

Quite possibly.

I did play FE12. But they said that all the Dragons used to be peaceful. One empire doesn't have to be the case where the dragons to live in harmony with one another. 

Because that's all that is mentioned are the Fire, Ice, Mage, Flying, Earth, and Divine Tribes. Unless another Tribe was specifically mentioned in the lore, those are the only tribes that existed. Also, you mentioned the case in Valentia. Well, that's Valentia. The dragons we are referring to are Archanean. We don't know the dragon history in Valentia and for all we know, there might have been some tribes there, but we don't know for certain.

That's not insulting Kaga's work or Kaga himself. It's stating a fact. Kaga really has no control over the lore anymore. Before, FE2 had seemed to make no real mention that Duma and Mila are dragons, but actual gods. Echoes now shows they are actually dragons. If Kaga said that they aren't supposed to be dragons, do you think what he says would go? No, it wouldn't, because he no longer owns the rights to Fire Emblem. Hell, he got sued because the TearRing Saga had Fire Emblem stuff in it. That's already saying that Kaga's not in charge. I am not trying to be rude to him, but its the truth. 

I don't deny that I have thrown some insults. I literally said that I called you petty at one point, and I also did say that you're a fanboy as well. But you've gone really low with that last ridiculous post of yours by calling me a troll, claiming I had hijacked a thread when that was never my desire or intention, calling me a fanboy in a manner of insult (which I admit is something I retaliated by calling you one as well), claiming that I hate the older games, and also insulting me as a writer. 

[Emperor Hardin]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I did play FE12. But they said that all the Dragons used to be peaceful. One empire doesn't have to be the case where the dragons to live in harmony with one another. 

Because that's all that is mentioned are the Fire, Ice, Mage, Flying, Earth, and Divine Tribes. Unless another Tribe was specifically mentioned in the lore, those are the only tribes that existed. Also, you mentioned the case in Valentia. Well, that's Valentia. The dragons we are referring to are Archanean. We don't know the dragon history in Valentia and for all we know, there might have been some tribes there, but we don't know for certain.

That's not insulting Kaga's work or Kaga himself. It's stating a fact. Kaga really has no control over the lore anymore. Before, FE2 had seemed to make no real mention that Duma and Mila are dragons, but actual gods. Echoes now shows they are actually dragons. If Kaga said that they aren't supposed to be dragons, do you think what he says would go? No, it wouldn't, because he no longer owns the rights to Fire Emblem. Hell, he got sued because the TearRing Saga had Fire Emblem stuff in it. That's already saying that Kaga's not in charge. I am not trying to be rude to him, but its the truth. 

I don't deny that I have thrown some insults. I literally said that I called you petty at one point, and I also did say that you're a fanboy as well. But you've gone really low with that last ridiculous post of yours by calling me a troll, claiming I had hijacked a thread when that was never my desire or intention, calling me a fanboy in a manner of insult (which I admit is something I retaliated by calling you one as well), claiming that I hate the older games, and also insulting me as a writer. 

It specifically says an empire under the Divine Dragons in the timeline.

Echoes already showed Water Dragons exist in Archanea, the Fafnir enemy type is also stated to be a member of the Dragon tribes rather then just a terror. You cannot claim those mentioned are the only tribes, you've already been proven wrong.

Kaga's works were submitted, its canon and you cannot ignore it. Claiming his work is now noncanon is a complete lie,, contradicted by Echoes itself. The belief that one change means your ideas for retcons will now be canon is even more insulting.

Your belief that your own head canons take precedence over Kaga's works and the art of artists who still contribute to the series is very insulting.

You have; insulted me throughout the thread, insulted the people who worked on the series, and repeatedly used this thread to say your ideas are canon while putting down the work of writers for the series.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

It specifically says an empire under the Divine Dragons in the timeline.

Echoes already showed Water Dragons exist in Archanea, the Fafnir enemy type is also stated to be a member of the Dragon tribes rather then just a terror.

Kaga's works were submitted, its canon and you cannot ignore it. Claiming his work is now noncanon is a complete lie,, contradicted by Echoes itself.

Your belief that your own head canons take precedence over Kaga's works and the art of artists who still contribute to the series is very insulting.

You have; insulted me throughout the thread, insulted the people who worked on the series, and repeatedly used this thread to say your ideas are canon while putting down the work of writers for the series.

You might need to show me the line that says that in FE12. But based on what Xane said, he never said the dragons all functioned as a single empire. And again, if that were the case, the hierarchy no longer makes sense. 

Maybe this is a sign that they will be adding other Tribes. But there is no real mention on whether they are of a specific tribe or not. Until the confirmation is set, what we're saying about it is just theories and conjectures.

I am not saying that everything he's done is noncanon. However, whatever is happening now in the lore, he has no say in it anymore. Kaga might have started things, and is still going, but the lore of Fire Emblem is ever changing and Kaga no longer has any say on what's what anymore. His work exists, but the stories are now being altered. That is the truth. 

I have not once said that what I said was canon. If you had listened to me, you'd have read that I said that I make the theories based on the information given and facts presented, and use logic with it. Never said that what I said is the absolute truth. You can say I'm wrong but have real counters against me in regards to that. I have not insulted Kaga, merely said the truth based on what has already been said. And as for the artist, all I said is that the artwork on the TCG cannot be used as full canon works for the game, as the game artworks indicates otherwise. That isn't an insult either. 

Speaking of it, you didn't answer my question. Did you read the conclusion that I had made with Jotari in regards to the Book of Naga and Falchion? Because you've been dodging me on this for a long while now.

[Emperor Hardin]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You might need to show me the line that says that in FE12. But based on what Xane said, he never said the dragons all functioned as a single empire. And again, if that were the case, the hierarchy no longer makes sense. 

Maybe this is a sign that they will be adding other Tribes. But there is no real mention on whether they are of a specific tribe or not. Until the confirmation is set, what we're saying about it is just theories and conjectures.

I am not saying that everything he's done is noncanon. However, whatever is happening now in the lore, he has no say in it anymore. Kaga might have started things, and is still going, but the lore of Fire Emblem is ever changing and Kaga no longer has any say on what's what anymore. His work exists, but the stories are now being altered. That is the truth. 

I have not once said that what I said was canon. If you had listened to me, you'd have read that I said that I make the theories based on the information given and facts presented, and use logic with it. Never said that what I said is the absolute truth. You can say I'm wrong but have real counters against me in regards to that. I have not insulted Kaga, merely said the truth based on what has already been said. And as for the artist, all I said is that the artwork on the TCG cannot be used as full canon works for the game, as the game artworks indicates otherwise. That isn't an insult either. 

Speaking of it, you didn't answer my question. Did you read the conclusion that I had made with Jotari in regards to the Book of Naga and Falchion? Because you've been dodging me on this for a long while now.

• The entire continent is occupied by an advanced civilization, ruled by the Divine Dragons. 

FE3's fan translation description, other translations are even more clear that Divine Dragons ruled over the other dragons in this civilization.

Dagons and Fafnirs are explicitly labeled as Dragon tribes, you can't deny this.

The thing is you deny stuff Kaga has wrote and put down, thats not showing the writers or the franchise any kind of respect. What you are showing is that you're willing to declare any official source that doesn't agree with you non canon over flimsy premises.

You have repeatedly claimed Kaga's works aren't canon while assuming your head canons have precedence, that is indeed blatant disrespect. 

I've already showed you are wrong about the TCG artwork, particularly as the TCG was drawn by one of the main artists for the series. Again, you can't just trash official material because it doesn't align with your head canons. "Official interviews with Kaga say Naga's tome possessed people, well Kaga doesn't work, well he doesn't work at IS so his work is non canon." Not something someone who loved the series would say.

Whenever you make a claim, someone points out the canon, and you disregard it saying they're work is now non canon or the changes in Echoes mean their work no longer matters. Again, you are outright insulting the series as this point.

I already answered it, everyone pointed out it to you, and you only listened at the idea that they were equal in power because you were unable to accept the idea that the book of Naga was more powerful then the original Falchion.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

16 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

• The entire continent is occupied by an advanced civilization, ruled by the Divine Dragons. 

FE3's fan translation description, other translations are even more clear that Divine Dragons ruled over the other dragons in this civilization.

Interesting point, and makes sense since the Divine Dragons are the strongest. However, that doesn't mean they were a single empire. Because once again, that completely disregards the case of Medeus being a Prince to begin with. The hierarchy works in that it goes by the royal bloodline of the rulers. If the Divine Dragons were the sole rulers and commanded all the other tribes, then Medeus would not even be considered a Prince. but he is, meaning that though the Divine Dragons are the strongest and considered in charge, the other tribes have their hierarchy regardless, meaning that the tribes are still somewhat separate.

18 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Dagons and Fafnirs are explicitly labeled as Dragon tribes, you can't deny this.

Did I say that I'm denying it? I'm saying that this could be a sign that more tribes could be existing. But right now, there is no proof that this belongs to any of the tribes we know of. Wind Dragons still not confirmed, is it?

19 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The thing is you deny stuff Kaga has wrote and put down, thats not showing the writers or the franchise any kind of respect. What you are showing is that you're willing to declare any official source that doesn't agree with you non canon over flimsy premises.

You have repeatedly claimed Kaga's works aren't canon while assuming your head canons have precedence, that is indeed blatant disrespect. 

Stop saying something when I mean another. Actually READ what I'm saying. Kaga did create the first 4-5 installments of Fire Emblem, he left the company. After which, many of the lores of Fire emblem began to change. We had remakes of FE1 and 3, and now a remake of FE2, and there's FE13 that alters many of the aspects of Kaga's work, but regardless, its now part of the lore. You cannot deny the lore that's said in these remakes and new games just to justify the old games. Kaga had no part in these new games, and the lore in these new games would pretty much overwrite the lore of the old games, hence the remakes.

It's sad, sure, but it's the truth. I'm not trying to be cruel to Kaga, but it's a fact now. The remakes have overwritten what Kaga has done, and he no longer has any say in the matter.

In the case of non-canon, that is in regards to what the new lore overwrites the old ones. Duma and Mila being actual gods? Sadly, that is non-canon. Kaga cannot argue against that anymore. 

26 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I've already showed you are wrong about the TCG artwork, particularly as the TCG was drawn by one of the main artists for the series. Again, you can't just trash official material because it doesn't align with your head canons. "Official interviews with Kaga say Naga's tome possessed people, well Kaga doesn't work, well he doesn't work at IS so his work is non canon." Not something someone who loved the series would say.

But a lot of the work in said TCG contradicts what is shown in game. Hardin wields a scythe in the TCG, but he doesn't in the official game artwork. Game artwork also shows the orbs to have no attachments on it. It cannot be asserted that the attachments existed. And I am not gonna bother arguing again about the orbs. Face it, neither of us have ANY solid concrete evidence to support their origins. 

28 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Whenever you make a claim, someone points out the canon, and you disregard it saying they're work is now non canon or the changes in Echoes mean their work no longer matters. Again, you are outright insulting the series as this point.

Whenever someone points out a canon, I point out a contradiction in it and have other evidence to back up my claim as well. Changes in Echoes basically overwrite what happened in the past. It's saddening, but that's the truth. In Gaiden, Duma and Mila are gods. Echoes: Dragons. What's going to be more widely acknowledged? What will be placed in the wikis? The new information. That's what.

30 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I already answered it, everyone pointed out it to you, and you only listened at the idea that they were equal in power because you were unable to accept the idea that the book of Naga was more powerful then the original Falchion.

Because like I said, it contradicts what is now established in the new information. Naga stated that Falchion's true might rivals her own. Meaning that Naga cannot have made a tome more powerful than herself using her powers. So yes, at best, Book of Naga can only rival Falchion. The fact you refuse to acknowledge that is a blatant ignoring of the new lore that is established. 

Book of Naga was used instead of Falchion not because it's stronger, but because it served to be a direct counter. The case of "only hope" is something I also wanna point out to you.

Gotoh said that Falchion is the "only hope" of defeating Medeus.

Gotoh said that Starlight is the "only hope" of breaking through Imhullu.

The Blaggi Sword is the "only hope" of counteracting the Lopt Sword. 

The case of "only hope" is not an expression of a weapon being stronger than another, but rather how they are the only designed weapons specifically meant to beat that specific power. So Naga's tome is specifically meant to defeat Loptyr's tome. It makes sense. And I don't even need to stick to what I once said about Naga making the tome because she was physically weakened, so you also get what you wanted out of this.

[Emperor Hardin]

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Interesting point, and makes sense since the Divine Dragons are the strongest. However, that doesn't mean they were a single empire. Because once again, that completely disregards the case of Medeus being a Prince to begin with. The hierarchy works in that it goes by the royal bloodline of the rulers. If the Divine Dragons were the sole rulers and commanded all the other tribes, then Medeus would not even be considered a Prince. but he is, meaning that though the Divine Dragons are the strongest and considered in charge, the other tribes have their hierarchy regardless, meaning that the tribes are still somewhat separate.

Did I say that I'm denying it? I'm saying that this could be a sign that more tribes could be existing. But right now, there is no proof that this belongs to any of the tribes we know of. Wind Dragons still not confirmed, is it?

Stop saying something when I mean another. Actually READ what I'm saying. Kaga did create the first 4-5 installments of Fire Emblem, he left the company. After which, many of the lores of Fire emblem began to change. We had remakes of FE1 and 3, and now a remake of FE2, and there's FE13 that alters many of the aspects of Kaga's work, but regardless, its now part of the lore. You cannot deny the lore that's said in these remakes and new games just to justify the old games. Kaga had no part in these new games, and the lore in these new games would pretty much overwrite the lore of the old games, hence the remakes.

It's sad, sure, but it's the truth. I'm not trying to be cruel to Kaga, but it's a fact now. The remakes have overwritten what Kaga has done, and he no longer has any say in the matter.

In the case of non-canon, that is in regards to what the new lore overwrites the old ones. Duma and Mila being actual gods? Sadly, that is non-canon. Kaga cannot argue against that anymore. 

But a lot of the work in said TCG contradicts what is shown in game. Hardin wields a scythe in the TCG, but he doesn't in the official game artwork. Game artwork also shows the orbs to have no attachments on it. It cannot be asserted that the attachments existed. And I am not gonna bother arguing again about the orbs. Face it, neither of us have ANY solid concrete evidence to support their origins. 

Whenever someone points out a canon, I point out a contradiction in it and have other evidence to back up my claim as well. Changes in Echoes basically overwrite what happened in the past. It's saddening, but that's the truth. In Gaiden, Duma and Mila are gods. Echoes: Dragons. What's going to be more widely acknowledged? What will be placed in the wikis? The new information. That's what.

Because like I said, it contradicts what is now established in the new information. Naga stated that Falchion's true might rivals her own. Meaning that Naga cannot have made a tome more powerful than herself using her powers. So yes, at best, Book of Naga can only rival Falchion. The fact you refuse to acknowledge that is a blatant ignoring of the new lore that is established. 

Book of Naga was used instead of Falchion not because it's stronger, but because it served to be a direct counter. The case of "only hope" is something I also wanna point out to you.

Gotoh said that Falchion is the "only hope" of defeating Medeus.

Gotoh said that Starlight is the "only hope" of breaking through Imhullu.

The Blaggi Sword is the "only hope" of counteracting the Lopt Sword. 

The case of "only hope" is not an expression of a weapon being stronger than another, but rather how they are the only designed weapons specifically meant to beat that specific power. So Naga's tome is specifically meant to defeat Loptyr's tome. It makes sense. And I don't even need to stick to what I once said about Naga making the tome because she was physically weakened, so you also get what you wanted out of this.

The timeline and guide says there were a singular empire. Again, you can't just repeatedly ignore canon whenever it has something that disproves your ideas.

The Dragon had split off from the empire by the point of degeneration.

You outright claimed earlier that Fire, Mage, Divine, Earth, Ice, and Wyvern were the only tribes on Archanea, Echoes has literally proven you wrong, yet you persist. 

You keep incessantly claiming work Kaga had done for the series no longer applies because he doesn't work for IS. New flash, it doesn't work that way. All the work and info Kaga has submitted is canon and part of the series, him leaving the company doesn't change. This is basically you just coming up with any excuse to belittle anything that disproves your many wild ideas.

And they've stuck with the ideas Kaga has submitted with the remakes, your idea that they'd disregarded all the lore fans have grown to love for your ideas is a blatant show of disrespect towards the series. Again, you have no respect for the series and feel entitled to ignore anything in it you don't like. You only claim Kaga's works is non canon when its convenient for your current head canon, this isn't a show of love for the series.

Kaga never said they weren't gods, so that isn't a contradiction. The ideas you want for the series are indeed directly contradictory to Kaga's published materials, neither fans nor IS would stand for that. You vastly underestimate the popularity of the NES and SNES era.

It doesn't contradict anything, Fire Emblem artwork changes all the time. Again, as pointed out, the scythe wielded by Emperor Hardin is a direct reference to the official artwork of the Emperor Class from FE4. If anything it shows Koya's knowledge of the series. Once again, you feel the need to push that anything that contradicts your ideas for canon is non canon when you hardly have that authority.

Game artwork is held back by a lot of things and is inconsistent within itself, such as the stands on the spheres disappearing and reappearing. Again you cannot disregard the artwork for the Spheres by the official artists just because it contradicts your head canon. Artists who've been with the series since the beginning have more say then you.

They are already prove that other tribes exist on Archanea, you claimed the dragons in FE3 were the only on Archanea, face it bro, you've been proven wrong.

No, your ideas have little to no canon support, and all consistently relying on saying stuff such as "but Kaga left the company so anything he wrote is non canon" and "the TCG game is non canon even though its by the official artists."

Things have changed by Awakening which everyone has repeatedly pointed out. Awakening Naga never claimed Falchion was always that powerful, just as the Fire Emblem never had the function it does in that game in the past. You are going against canon by claiming Falchion was always that powerful.

Naga had access to the Falchion.

I'm not even sure Gotoh says that line, but the game can't render Medeus unbeatable, else the game would be impossible if you missed the Falchion.

Starlight was the only hope for Marth's army against Gharnef. Blagi Sword never used that phrase.

Another thing is your ideas constantly come off as you wanting to make Awakening look better by tearing down the works of the past, writing doesn't work that way. People wouldn't think better of Awakening if it was retconned that the Book of Naga was weak and Grima was the greatest villain of the universe, if anything they'd hate it more for resulting in the changes to beloved entries to the franchise.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The timeline and guide says there were a singular empire. Again, you can't just repeatedly ignore canon whenever it has something that disproves your ideas.

It was never said that the dragons began to separate into independent tribes because of degeneration. The separate tribes were already established. Plus, Xane also refers to the tribes as separate and didn't indicate that the tribes were always as s single empire. And once again, I bring the case of the hierarchy where Medeus is a prince but that can't be the case if the Divine Dragons were already the rulers of all the tribes. 

11 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You outright claimed earlier that Fire, Mage, Divine, Earth, Ice, and Wyvern were the only tribes on Archanea, Echoes has literally proven you wrong, yet you persist. 

Well, you gave me proof that said otherwise, meaning that I had made a mistake. However, that dragon you mentioned has yet to be established as to what existing or new tribe it belongs to. 

13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You keep incessantly claiming work Kaga had done for the series no longer applies because he doesn't work for IS. New flash, it doesn't work that way. All the work and info Kaga has submitted is canon and part of the series, him leaving the company doesn't change. This is basically you just coming up with any excuse to belittle anything that disproves your many wild ideas.

And they've stuck with the ideas Kaga has submitted with the remakes, your idea that they'd disregarded all the lore fans have grown to love for your ideas is a blatant show of disrespect towards the series. Again, you have no respect for the series and feel entitled to ignore anything in it you don't like. 

*facepalms* ... Hardin, please. I'm begging you, actually READ to what I am WRITING. What Kaga wrote down is canon, sure. HOWEVER, any new information that would not work with what he said in the old games would basically mean that the new info overwrites it. Retcons or whatever, that's the case. I'm not saying that everything Kaga says is non-canon because he's no longer in the company. I'm saying that all the new lore can and will retcon anything Kaga had written, and Kaga cannot say anything otherwise. Even if he releases a statement of what was supposed to be the case in the old games, it is irrelevant to what the new games gives.

17 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Kaga never said they weren't gods, so that isn't a contradiction. The ideas you want for the series are indeed directly contradictory to Kaga's published materials, neither fans nor IS would stand for that. You vastly underestimate the popularity of the NES and SNES era.

... Hardin, YOU and a BUNCH of others kept insisting that Duma and Mila were gods. Repeatedly. Over and over. And call it a retcon that they are no longer gods. I'm not gonna speak of Kaga on this, but the case being is that even if Kaga were to say that they were meant to be actual gods, it wouldn't matter because Echoes says they are dragons, and thus, what Kaga could say wouldn't matter, because IS has it said that they are dragons. Divine Dragons to boot. 

19 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It doesn't contradict anything, Fire Emblem artwork changes all the time. Again, as pointed out, the scythe wielded by Emperor Hardin is a direct reference to the official artwork of the Emperor Class from FE4. If anything it shows Koya's knowledge of the series. Once again, you feel the need to push that anything that contradicts your ideas for canon is non canon when you hardly have that authority.

Game artwork is held back by a lot of things and is inconsistent within itself, such as the stands on the spheres disappearing and reappearing. Again you cannot disregard the artwork for the Spheres by the official artists just because it contradicts your head canon. Artists who've been with the series since the beginning have more say then you.

Look, whatever. The point is irrelevant. No matter what we say, until we get the info, anything we say about the sphere's artworks is irrelevant. There's no direct statement of their origins, how and when they existed, and who made them. The only thing that is said about the spheres is that by Awakening, Tiki claims that they all hold a portion of Naga's powers. Whether this has always been the case or not is something neither of us guarantee like how Werdna pointed out about the Shield of Seals' appearance. 

21 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Things have changed by Awakening which everyone has repeatedly pointed out. Awakening Naga never claimed Falchion was always that powerful, just as the Fire Emblem never had the function it does in that game in the past. You are going against canon by claiming Falchion was always that powerful.

Actually, my claims regarding Falchion have strong support, both story dialogue and gameplay. Naga directly states that the Awakening ritual "draw forth Falchion's true might". Take note of the word "true might", as that indicates Falchion's true power, and is said to rival Naga's own might. The Falchion Chrom's wielded is named as "Sealed Sword" meaning its true power has been sealed. Now let's look at Echoes. Marth's amiibo wields the actual weapon that he's known for, and it's actually called "Exalted Falchion". This is IS saying that the Falchion's Marth wields 2000 years before Awakening is the same might of Awakening's true power. However, the Awakening ritual only brings up the case on the possibility that the Shield of Seals power to seal beings away was channeled into Falchion merely based on context from dialogue.

So I'm not going against canon in claiming that Falchion's always been that powerful. Falchion's power is established as that.

28 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I'm not even sure Gotoh says that line, but the game can't render Medeus unbeatable, else the game would be impossible if you missed the Falchion.

Starlight was the only hope for Marth's army against Gharnef. Blagi Sword never used that phrase.

For the case of Starliight vs Imhullu:

Quote

Gotoh:
“Yes. The mage who wields it cannot be killed; cannot be so much as scratched. I was the magic’s guardian once. Knowing its forbidden power could work terrible evils, so I kept it close. But Gharnef, one of my two pupils- Miloah being the other- took the forbidden tome and vanished. Now you are paying for my carelessness. Forgive me. I wish to make amends by teaching you the only way to undo Imhullu’s power.”

Marth:
“Which is…?”

Gotoh:
“It is called Starlight. One blast is enough to break through Imhullu’s shadowy protection. But to cast the magic, you need two orbs: the Lightsphere and the Starsphere. Heed me, Marth. When you find the Lightsphere and Starsphere, bring them to me. Then I will give you the magic you seek. Then you will have Starlight, and with it, Gharnef’s reign will end.”

Starlight is the ONLY method of beating Gharnef and his Imhullu.

Falchion vs Medeus:

Quote

“Marth, Marth, why did you not heed me? Why did you not bring the two orbs? Without them, I cannot make Starlight for you. You will not be able to break through Gharnef’s Imhullu magic, nor take Falchion from his clutches. Without Anri’s sword, your battle with Medeus will be fraught with peril. If you still mean to face him, you will need all the strength you can muster, every advantage you can find. If you have weapons like the sword Mercurius or the lance Gradivus, the fight may not be lost… Hmm… I, too, may be able to help in some other way. Let me think on it. Regardless, your quest has just become more difficult than you realize. I hope you are ready.”

Gotoh saying that Marth not having Starlight means that Gharnef can't be beaten and get Falchion, and without Falchion, Medeus can't be defeated by Marth's army. 

Now for Blaggi Sword vs Lopt Sword:

Quote

Cyas:
“Sword? …This is the Blade of Bragi. I heard it was being kept in the castle…”

Sety:
“Yes. Reidric is protected by the Blade of Lopto. The Blade of Bragi is the only sword that can kill him.”

-

Sety:
“No, don’t worry about it. I was planning on getting this done more quickly… but even my Holsety didn’t stand a chance against Reidric’s Blade of Lopto. We lost many lives as a result… My lack of strength is to blame. It isn’t your fault.”

Ced tried to use the Forseti tome, a true holy weapon, and it didn't even stand a chance against the Lopt Sword, a weapon forged with dark curses used by the Lopt Sect. The only counter is the Blaggi Sword. 

So regardless on the exact wording, the meaning is all the same. Naga creating a tome of her power to combat Loptyr's tome is the same reasoning for all these above examples. Also, there's also how Falchion+Shield of Seals=Awakening Ritual is the "only hope" of defeating Grima as well. In the end, it all comes down to a case of specific designs to counter other weapons.

[Armagon]

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Berwick Saga did give Wyverns, wind breath.

Yeah, but that's Berwick Saga, a.k.a Not Fire Emblem. We can't really use that or TearRing Saga for any of this. 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Some implications go that the orbs always belonged to the Divine Dragons. Another implication that it was created alongside the Shield of Seals. And Tiki says in Awakening that the orbs all contain a portion of Naga's power. 

When it comes to stuff like this, i would always use the latest piece of information available. Last we heard of the orbs, they all contain a portion of Naga's power? You know what else contains a portion of Naga's power? The Falchion and the Book of Naga, the former of which actually contains her full power. So i'd just say that Naga made all five orbs. Of course, there's a lot of inconsistencies with the orbs.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

The dragons were never a single empire. All the Tribes were separate. Medeus was the Earth Dragon Prince, with Naga as Divine Dragon King. If they were all a single empire, the hierarchy wouldn't function like that. The tribes used to live together in Archanea peacefully, known as the golden age of dragons. 

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

FE3 and FE12's ending gives a timeline mentioning a point in which all Dragon tribes were one empire.

Sorry, but i have to agree with Omegaxis here. Because that's not how empires work. If there was indeed a dragon empire, with Naga as it's king, then Medeus wouldn't be the Earth Dragon prince. Hell, there wouldn't even be an Earth Dragon royal family. Now, i did research how an empire works, and to be honest, it's........confusing as hell. But from what i understand, empires usually start as a country, before expanding to other territories and taking over them. Alternatively, the empire colonizes the new territory and makes it part of their own. In both scenarios, an Earth Dragon royal family wouldn't exist. The Divine Dragons are peaceful, so why would they conquer a different dragon tribe? And in the second scenario, the Earth Dragon tribe had a royal family, meaning that they were large enough to have a royal family, meaning that Divine Dragons colonizing their land would be impossible. Sure, in the real world, the Aztec Empire was colonized by the Spanish, but that's a case of the Spanish being vastly superior to the Aztecs in terms of military power. Whereas in Fire Emblem, Earth Dragons were stated to rival Divine Dragons.

What i think actually happened was, it was a dragon empire in name only. The Dragon tribes each ruled over their own lands, and occasionally got together to discuss matters. And not everyone agreed all the time. Naga told the other Dragons to place their powers into Dragonstones and let humans take control of the continent. The Earth Dragons were furious and refused. If it was indeed an actual empire, the Earth Dragons wouldn't have a say in the matter. They would have to follow the orders of Naga, as she is their king. Now, the Earth Dragons could've rebelled but the Divine-Earth Dragon War didn't start until after Earth Dragons started to degenerate. So a rebellion by the Earth Dragons is unlikely.

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Echoes shows they're still going off Kaga's works, even including Sea Dragons.

Except for the fact that both Duma and Mila are Divine Dragons now, as opposed to be actual Gods in the original. Or the Valentian Falchion having an actual backstory that states it's older than the Archanean Falchion. And Alm's birthmark being a Brand when it was just a simple birthmark in the original. Celica also having a Brand now. And really, Sea Dragons? That's an unused Class that was likely cut due to system limitations and/or time restraints. The sprite of a Sea Dragon shows it's serpentine in appearance and is capable of traversing water. Dagons aren't serpentine in appearance and they can't traverse through water (though the latter is likely for gameplay balancing). 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Echoes already showed Water Dragons exist in Archanea

Yeah, no it didn't. https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/miscellaneous/dungeons/rare-enemies/. Dagons appear in two places: Seabound Shrine and Dragon Shrine, both of which are located in Valentia. If you're referring to the Dagons that appear in the Sea Road, that's the Sea Road, not Archanea. Anything's fair game in international waters. And according to that link, Dagons don't appear in the Thabes Labyrinth, so no, they don't exist in Archanea.

I don't think Dagons are even a tribe, even if they were native to Archanea. I mean, their description outright states that Dagon meat is tasty, meaning that people eat these things. As far as i'm aware, no one would dare eat a Dragon in Archanea, let alone get close to one, unless they want to be killed, since most Dragons in Archanea have already degenerated. Meanwhile, the only Dragon that exist in Valentia are Dagons, Necrodragons, White Dragons, and Fafnir, the latter three being reanimated Dragon corpses, which is why the game classifies them as Terrors (Great Terrors for White Dragons and Fafnirs). The only two enemy types in all of Echoes to be classified as Dragon are Dagons and Fire Dragons. Oh, and here's my source: https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/miscellaneous/skills/. Just use ctrl-f and search "Dragon family".

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

the Fafnir enemy type is also stated to be a member of the Dragon tribes rather then just a terror

No it isn't. "A gigantic dragon that has survived since ancient times" -in-game description of a Fafnir. There's no mention at all of it belonging to a Dragon tribe. And once again, it isn't even classified as a Dragon. It's classifed as Great Terror.

39 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Kaga never said they weren't gods, so that isn't a contradiction.

No but the original Gaiden sure as hell did.

Quote

Once, there existed “gods”

Upon these lands.

On this remote island
Known as Valencia
Were two sibling gods
Called Doma and Mila.

However —

Doma, who believed that power was everything,
Could not forgive the degradation of mankind.

He came into violent dispute with
His younger sister Mila, who dreamed of a paradise
In which all living beings could frolic in freedom.

A long, long period of darkness passed…

At last, between the two of them,
They sealed a single pact.

The land of Valencia would be divided in two —
The north to be ruled by Doma;
The south to be ruled by Mila…

And so thousands of years passed.

The respective domains of the gods
Gave rise to two kingdoms:

The southern kingdom of Sofia,
Which had become corrupt in its prosperity,

And the northern empire of Rigel,
Which had forgotten kindness in its might.

Thus did these times filled with contradiction flow on.

Until finally,

To the royal families of Rigel and Sofia,
Two lives were born
Who would reverse the fate of Valencia.

From that day forth, the history of Valencia
Began to stir once more,
Moving forward into an age of violent warfare

Alm: But the “Pact of the Gods” upheld by Sofia and Rigel means we shouldn’t come to blows, right?

Cellica: But, Father.
It’s already been three years since crops last grew on this land.
The people are suffering from hunger to the point that they come all the way to this abbey seeking salvation.
What in the world befell the Earth Goddess Mila? That, I want to make certain of myself.

Woman: Dozer’s no longer here, but crops aren’t growing, and weird monsters have been appearing…
Something must happened to the Earth Goddess Mila.

Priestess: All of a sudden the Rigelian army came attacking.
The Earth Goddess Mila was sealed by Emperor Rudolf of Rigel.

Priestess: The evil god Doma was the one who provided Rudolf with the sword that sealed Mila.

Tatara: Hohoho. You bastards think you can defeat me, Lord Tatara?
Dyute! Extinguish those fools with your Aura.
Present those bastards with the wrath of the gods!!!

Cellica: If that is so, then please, I beg of you.
Release Lady Mila! Return the Earth Goddess Mila to her proper place!!

Rudolf: Alm… You’ve become a splendid young man…
Was it no mistake to have entrusted you with Sir Mycen after all…?
You should have realized it by now, haven’t you? Your real name is Albyne Alm Rudolf.
My… one and only… son…
Guh…
I cannot speak for much longer…
However, Alm. I have just one last request.
Using “Falchion”, that holy sword that sealed Mila…
Defeat… the evil god… Doma…

Mycen: Don’t cry, Alm…
This is something I also wished to tell you before. It was due to the gods that this land Valencia came to be divided into North and South.
And in doing so they mistakenly involved themselves too deeply with the concerns of mankind.
As a result, the people of Sofia forgot the meaning of toil, and the people of Rigel forgot the meaning of leisure.
As things were, we would all certainly come to ruin.
It was due to such considerations that Rudolf took it upon himself to become a destroyer, to instigate the appearance of true heroes in the land.
For the sake of creating a new era, he decided to become a sacrificial piece.
And to meet the hero who would bring about his defeat, even if it were his own child, he could not have been happier…
Thus was I informed when he delivered his newborn child into my hands.
Even now, I cannot forget the expression on Rudolf’s face at that time…
‘This man would consign himself to the fires of hell!’
When I realized that, there was already no way I could possibly refuse him.
And so, I left everything to fate.
Alm. You must not grieve forever.
You must not let Rudolf’s sacrifice be in vain by refusing to take over from here.
Head to the underground temple. Return the evil god Doma to the shadows.
If you don’t hurry, great danger may befall Cellica’s party. You mustn’t let that happen!

Out of curiosity, i went and searched for dragons in the Gaiden script. And the only times dragons were ever mentioned in the original Gaiden script were either when the game referred to Necrodragons or when the game referred to the Dragon Shrine. That's it. So yeah, the original Gaiden very much suggested that Duma and Mila were actual Gods. And since Kaga made the game, then he technically said or at least implied that Duma and Mila are Gods.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

It was never said that the dragons began to separate into independent tribes because of degeneration. The separate tribes were already established. Plus, Xane also refers to the tribes as separate and didn't indicate that the tribes were always as s single empire. And once again, I bring the case of the hierarchy where Medeus is a prince but that can't be the case if the Divine Dragons were already the rulers of all the tribes. 

Well, you gave me proof that said otherwise, meaning that I had made a mistake. However, that dragon you mentioned has yet to be established as to what existing or new tribe it belongs to. 

*facepalms* ... Hardin, please. I'm begging you, actually READ to what I am WRITING. What Kaga wrote down is canon, sure. HOWEVER, any new information that would not work with what he said in the old games would basically mean that the new info overwrites it. Retcons or whatever, that's the case. I'm not saying that everything Kaga says is non-canon because he's no longer in the company. I'm saying that all the new lore can and will retcon anything Kaga had written, and Kaga cannot say anything otherwise. Even if he releases a statement of what was supposed to be the case in the old games, it is irrelevant to what the new games gives.

... Hardin, YOU and a BUNCH of others kept insisting that Duma and Mila were gods. Repeatedly. Over and over. And call it a retcon that they are no longer gods. I'm not gonna speak of Kaga on this, but the case being is that even if Kaga were to say that they were meant to be actual gods, it wouldn't matter because Echoes says they are dragons, and thus, what Kaga could say wouldn't matter, because IS has it said that they are dragons. Divine Dragons to boot. 

Look, whatever. The point is irrelevant. No matter what we say, until we get the info, anything we say about the sphere's artworks is irrelevant. There's no direct statement of their origins, how and when they existed, and who made them. The only thing that is said about the spheres is that by Awakening, Tiki claims that they all hold a portion of Naga's powers. Whether this has always been the case or not is something neither of us guarantee like how Werdna pointed out about the Shield of Seals' appearance. 

Actually, my claims regarding Falchion have strong support, both story dialogue and gameplay. Naga directly states that the Awakening ritual "draw forth Falchion's true might". Take note of the word "true might", as that indicates Falchion's true power, and is said to rival Naga's own might. The Falchion Chrom's wielded is named as "Sealed Sword" meaning its true power has been sealed. Now let's look at Echoes. Marth's amiibo wields the actual weapon that he's known for, and it's actually called "Exalted Falchion". This is IS saying that the Falchion's Marth wields 2000 years before Awakening is the same might of Awakening's true power. However, the Awakening ritual only brings up the case on the possibility that the Shield of Seals power to seal beings away was channeled into Falchion merely based on context from dialogue.

So I'm not going against canon in claiming that Falchion's always been that powerful. Falchion's power is established as that.

For the case of Starliight vs Imhullu:

Starlight is the ONLY method of beating Gharnef and his Imhullu.

Falchion vs Medeus:

Gotoh saying that Marth not having Starlight means that Gharnef can't be beaten and get Falchion, and without Falchion, Medeus can't be defeated by Marth's army. 

Now for Blaggi Sword vs Lopt Sword:

Ced tried to use the Forseti tome, a true holy weapon, and it didn't even stand a chance against the Lopt Sword, a weapon forged with dark curses used by the Lopt Sect. The only counter is the Blaggi Sword. 

So regardless on the exact wording, the meaning is all the same. Naga creating a tome of her power to combat Loptyr's tome is the same reasoning for all these above examples. Also, there's also how Falchion+Shield of Seals=Awakening Ritual is the "only hope" of defeating Grima as well. In the end, it all comes down to a case of specific designs to counter other weapons.

The timeline and guides specifically refer to them as one singular empire.

Heck even in FE3, Marth is still a Prince when Altea is simply an extension of the Archanean empire. So again, your claim is wrong.

Your claim was the dragons in FE3 were the only dragons on Archanaea, I've showed you've been outright proven wrong.

You've repeatedly claimed his work is non canon when it suits your head canon. While new material has been released, its never blatantly contradicted what Kaga put down. The ideas you want are blatant contradictions to canon and you repeatedly act like your ideas will happen. Face it, IS isn't going to blatantly go against past lore, especially for your unpopular ideas. You're insulting resorting to insults again, face it brush, you can't be consistent.

The only info from Kaga IS will ignore is stuff he released after his separation. Stuff he wrote and released during his tenure in the Franchise is established canon and will not be ignored.

Making Duma and Mila gods is a questionable addition, but there is a major difference between that and your push that IS will blatantly ignore concrete statements the franchise has given in the past. Again your push to declare Kaga's work non canon is not the actions of a fan, its the actions of a fanboy with no respect for the franchise or its writers.

Point being, you can't just ignore Koya's artwork and declare it noncanon. Koya is a major artist for the series who knows what he is doing and Fire Emblem designs change significantly depending on the artist. Your whole "It disagrees with me, so its non canon" is a perfect example of a spoiled attitude.

No, you have no support that Falchion was always that powerful. Remember Falchion wasn't attached to a blood pact until after the First Exalt. You keep ignoring him for the sake of your personal head canons. 

Amiibo info isn't canon, you yourself have claimed this, but I guess it doesn't apply when you find anything you think can be used to push your head canons onto people. Marth didn't have any pact from Naga, the Falchion and Fire Emblem changed significantly by the time of the First Exalt. Echoes Ragnell can't even do ranged attacks or damage Duma. Besides the last game with Amiibo representation, depicted Marth's Falchion as possessing different stats from Chrom's.

Already mentioned, Starlight is the only case for Marth to defeat Gharnef's Imhullu.

Thing is in Thracia 776, the cast are bringing up what is available to them, among whats available to them, the Blaggi sword is their only hope.

You claim Naga would be able to easily defeat Loptyr with the Falchion, when canon shows otherwise.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Yeah, but that's Berwick Saga, a.k.a Not Fire Emblem. We can't really use that or TearRing Saga for any of this. 

When it comes to stuff like this, i would always use the latest piece of information available. Last we heard of the orbs, they all contain a portion of Naga's power? You know what else contains a portion of Naga's power? The Falchion and the Book of Naga, the former of which actually contains her full power. So i'd just say that Naga made all five orbs. Of course, there's a lot of inconsistencies with the orbs.

Sorry, but i have to agree with Omegaxis here. Because that's not how empires work. If there was indeed a dragon empire, with Naga as it's king, then Medeus wouldn't be the Earth Dragon prince. Hell, there wouldn't even be an Earth Dragon royal family. Now, i did research how an empire works, and to be honest, it's........confusing as hell. But from what i understand, empires usually start as a country, before expanding to other territories and taking over them. Alternatively, the empire colonizes the new territory and makes it part of their own. In both scenarios, an Earth Dragon royal family wouldn't exist. The Divine Dragons are peaceful, so why would they conquer a different dragon tribe? And in the second scenario, the Earth Dragon tribe had a royal family, meaning that they were large enough to have a royal family, meaning that Divine Dragons colonizing their land would be impossible. Sure, in the real world, the Aztec Empire was colonized by the Spanish, but that's a case of the Spanish being vastly superior to the Aztecs in terms of military power. Whereas in Fire Emblem, Earth Dragons were stated to rival Divine Dragons.

What i think actually happened was, it was a dragon empire in name only. The Dragon tribes each ruled over their own lands, and occasionally got together to discuss matters. And not everyone agreed all the time. Naga told the other Dragons to place their powers into Dragonstones and let humans take control of the continent. The Earth Dragons were furious and refused. If it was indeed an actual empire, the Earth Dragons wouldn't have a say in the matter. They would have to follow the orders of Naga, as she is their king. Now, the Earth Dragons could've rebelled but the Divine-Earth Dragon War didn't start until after Earth Dragons started to degenerate. So a rebellion by the Earth Dragons is unlikely.

Except for the fact that both Duma and Mila are Divine Dragons now, as opposed to be actual Gods in the original. Or the Valentian Falchion having an actual backstory that states it's older than the Archanean Falchion. And Alm's birthmark being a Brand when it was just a simple birthmark in the original. Celica also having a Brand now. And really, Sea Dragons? That's an unused Class that was likely cut due to system limitations and/or time restraints. The sprite of a Sea Dragon shows it's serpentine in appearance and is capable of traversing water. Dagons aren't serpentine in appearance and they can't traverse through water (though the latter is likely for gameplay balancing). 

Yeah, no it didn't. https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/miscellaneous/dungeons/rare-enemies/. Dagons appear in two places: Seabound Shrine and Dragon Shrine, both of which are located in Valentia. If you're referring to the Dagons that appear in the Sea Road, that's the Sea Road, not Archanea. Anything's fair game in international waters. And according to that link, Dagons don't appear in the Thabes Labyrinth, so no, they don't exist in Archanea.

I don't think Dagons are even a tribe, even if they were native to Archanea. I mean, their description outright states that Dagon meat is tasty, meaning that people eat these things. As far as i'm aware, no one would dare eat a Dragon in Archanea, let alone get close to one, unless they want to be killed, since most Dragons in Archanea have already degenerated. Meanwhile, the only Dragon that exist in Valentia are Dagons, Necrodragons, White Dragons, and Fafnir, the latter three being reanimated Dragon corpses, which is why the game classifies them as Terrors (Great Terrors for White Dragons and Fafnirs). The only two enemy types in all of Echoes to be classified as Dragon are Dagons and Fire Dragons. Oh, and here's my source: https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/miscellaneous/skills/. Just use ctrl-f and search "Dragon family".

No it isn't. "A gigantic dragon that has survived since ancient times" -in-game description of a Fafnir. There's no mention at all of it belonging to a Dragon tribe. And once again, it isn't even classified as a Dragon. It's classifed as Great Terror.

Berwick Saga wasn't used as canon, so why are you bringing it up?

FE3 itself has Altea as part of the Archanean empire, Marth is still a prince. 

So yes, Medeus can be a Prince in a Divine Dragon led Empire, unless you want to ignore FE3's entire canon itself.

The original script never says Duma and Mila are Dragons, but if the script had say they weren't dragons, you can bet the remake wouldn't make them Dragons. Basically IS still doesn't try to contradict what the game itself directly states for canon.

Kaga's published material says they were made from different dragon tribes. The Fire Emblem and Falchion have entirely different purposes by the point of Awakening. So while that info is true for Awakening, its hardly the case.

Fafnir is directly labeled "Brethern", dragon tribes in Japanese, just like Fire Dragons and Dagons. This is entirely different from the undead dragons which are labeled Terrors. It is a terror unit only because the class is made from reused assets obtained from Dracozombie. In lore, it is not undead, hence it receives the same descriptions as the Degenerated Dragons.

That link only lists rare mobs, not ordinary mobs. Its why the Thieve's den entry makes no mention of the hundreds of Brigands within.

Dagons are found in Thabes and the sixth Archanea Seaway Battle which are both in Archanea. Sorry, you are outright wrong here.

People already use Wyverns as labor, nothing is stopping them from eating degenerated dragons.

The Dragon itself is a direct reference to the unused Sea Dragon from FE3.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The timeline and guides specifically refer to them as one singular empire.

Heck even in FE3, Marth is still a Prince when Altea is simply an extension of the Archanean empire. So again, your claim is wrong.

Altea is a vassal state that is loyal to the Empire, but still an independent kingdom on its own. Similar to how Crimea in the Tellius series that used to be part of Begnion, but in both these cases, the now independent kingdom can very well go into war against the kingdom once part of. Altea had gone into war with the Archanean Empire in the end after all. So the case being is that each Dragon Tribe can and would have their own independence. 

13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Your claim was the dragons in FE3 were the only dragons on Archanaea, I've showed you've been outright proven wrong.

Actually, you only corrected me because I'm still lacking in some information. However, Armagon is now on that case and he's more understanding of the information that I am lacking. 

14 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You've repeatedly claimed his work is non canon when it suits your head canon. While new material has been released, its never blatantly contradicted what Kaga put down. The ideas you want are blatant contradictions to canon and you repeatedly act like your ideas will happen. Face it, IS isn't going to blatantly go against past lore, especially for your unpopular ideas. You're insulting resorting to insults again, face it brush, you can't be consistent.

The only info from Kaga IS will ignore is stuff he released after his separation. Stuff he wrote and released during his tenure in the Franchise is established canon and will not be ignored.

Making Duma and Mila gods is a questionable addition, but there is a major difference between that and your push that IS will blatantly ignore concrete statements the franchise has given in the past. Again your push to declare Kaga's work non canon is not the actions of a fan, its the actions of a fanboy with no respect for the franchise or its writers.

Point being, you can't just ignore Koya's artwork and declare it noncanon. Koya is a major artist for the series who knows what he is doing and Fire Emblem designs change significantly depending on the artist. Your whole "It disagrees with me, so its non canon" is a perfect example of a spoiled attitude.

Okay stop. First off, get this straight. By no means am I going with "if it disagrees with me, its noncanon". That's now what I'm going for at all. You're ignoring literally everything that's being established by the new lore. New lore indicates that the orbs are containing Naga's power. Unless they say that this function only happened after the events with the First Exalt, that's the canon info. It doesn't matter how you say that the artwork that Koyo says shows this aesthetic attachment that merely shows a shaping with a Shadow Dragon on it as concrete evidence that Shadow/Earth Dragons made that, because that contradicts what the lore now states. 

Kaga has established a lot of things, and IS can continue to use them. But any and all changes made into the new lores through remakes can and will take precedence over what Kaga previously established. 

20 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No, you have no support that Falchion was always that powerful. Remember Falchion wasn't attached to a blood pact until after the First Exalt. You keep ignoring him for the sake of your personal head canons. 

No, YOU keep ignoring the case. Naga literally said herself that Falchion's TRUE might rivals her own. The term TRUE means that its the full power that Falchion's always held. Falchion's power was SEALED after the First Exalt, meaning that it's ALWAYS had the strength of the original Falchion Marth carried, the Awakening Ritual was to help Falchion be used to SEAL Grima. 

Why do you insist on ignoring what the dialogue clearly said? 

22 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Amiibo info isn't canon, you yourself have claimed this, but I guess it doesn't apply when you find anything you think can be used to push your head canons onto people. Marth didn't have any pact from Naga, the Falchion and Fire Emblem changed significantly by the time of the First Exalt.

I don't recall ever saying that. You'll have to actually bring in the quote that said it, because in regards to the amiibo, I already told you about the case of Marth's Falchion being able to slay Grima and Duma, while Lucina's couldn't. And the fact that now Marth's Falchion is labeled as Exalted Falchion just strengthens my argument that the might of Marth's Falchion is still the same as Chrom's Falchion after the Awakening. 

30 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Already mentioned, Starlight is the only case for Marth to defeat Gharnef's Imhullu.

Thing is in Thracia 776, the cast are bringing up what is available to them, among whats available to them, the Blaggi sword is their only hope.

Because there were absolutely no alternatives. Gotoh literally said that it's impossible to even SCRATCH Gharnef. Meaning that you cannot disprove it because in the end, Starlight WAS their only hope to stop Gharnef. 

Ced literally said that his Holy Weapon, the Forseti, stood NO chance against the Lopt Sword. The Lopt Sword was already stated to have been made using dark magic by the Lopt Sect. And Blaggi's Sword that counters it is a weapon named after Blaggi, meaning that he likely created that weapon. Blaggi is not even Naga's blood, but he created a weapon that could beat the Lopt Sword. Once again, the point is that weapons are specifically designed to combat others existed. 

31 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You claim Naga would be able to easily defeat Loptyr with the Falchion, when canon shows otherwise.

... *headdesks* That was literally something I said in the very beginning, but I had already retracted that claim. Did you REALLY not read anything I had written to you?