Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[Armagon]

13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Berwick Saga wasn't used as canon, so why are you bringing it up?

During the subject of whether Wyverns could use Wind Breath or whatever, you used Beriwck Saga as a reference.

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

FE3 itself has Altea as part of the Archanean empire, Marth is still a prince.

Fair enough. It's worth pointing out that the Archanean Emprie didn't exist until FE3/12, so it's very likely that there was some diplomacy there with having Altea as part of the Empire. The same could be argued for the Divine Dragon Empire to include the other tribes.

17 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The original script never says Duma and Mila are Dragons, but if the script had say they weren't dragons, you can bet the remake wouldn't make them Dragons. Basically IS still doesn't try to contradict what the game itself directly states for canon.

Ehhh. It depends. Echoes' prologue has more dialogue than the entirety of Gaiden. Now, if IS tried remaking a game that had more story content such as Genealogy of the Holy War or Binding Blade, then there wouldn't be as much changes. Gaiden barely had a story, so IS took liberties when remaking the plot.

21 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Fafnir is directly labeled "Brethern", dragon tribes in Japanese, just like Fire Dragons and Dagons.

Ah ok. So it was an issue of localization then.

21 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Dagons are found in Thabes which is in Archanea. Sorry, you are outright wrong here.

Apologies. I had never seen a Dagon in Thabes and there was nothing on the Echoes page that said they appeared there.

22 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

People already use Wyverns as labor, nothing is stopping them from eating degenerated dragons.

I think that's a different type of Wyvern. The Wyverns that the Dracoknights of Macedon ride appear to be a tamed breed, whereas the Wyverns that breath fire are the degenerated ones. It's like in real life, where there's tame horses and wild horses. Plus, Wyverns still appear in Awakening 2000 years later, and by then, it seems that all degenerated dragons had all died out, yet Wyverns still exist.

29 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The Dragon itself is a direct reference to the unused Sea Dragon from FE3.

To be honest, there's no evidence to support that. It could've been a coincidence after all. I mean, i created the Dagon page over at the Wiki and when i said the thing about how they could've been inspired by the unused Sea Dragon Class, that particular line was removed because it was "speculation".

[Interdimensional Observer]

33 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

FE3 itself has Altea as part of the Archanean empire, Marth is still a prince. 

So yes, Medeus can be a Prince in a Divine Dragon led Empire, unless you want to ignore FE3's entire canon itself.

Plus I think China had kings during some of its earlier dynasties, which are generally considered empires. Not European so it doesn't count? Fine, the Roman Empire- Herod the Great, a devout minion of the Romans and King of the Jews. Emperor is a greater title than King, King serves Emperor (or Empress in Naga's case), simple. 

[Emperor Hardin]

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Altea is a vassal state that is loyal to the Empire, but still an independent kingdom on its own. Similar to how Crimea in the Tellius series that used to be part of Begnion, but in both these cases, the now independent kingdom can very well go into war against the kingdom once part of. Altea had gone into war with the Archanean Empire in the end after all. So the case being is that each Dragon Tribe can and would have their own independence. 

Actually, you only corrected me because I'm still lacking in some information. However, Armagon is now on that case and he's more understanding of the information that I am lacking. 

Okay stop. First off, get this straight. By no means am I going with "if it disagrees with me, its noncanon". That's now what I'm going for at all. You're ignoring literally everything that's being established by the new lore. New lore indicates that the orbs are containing Naga's power. Unless they say that this function only happened after the events with the First Exalt, that's the canon info. It doesn't matter how you say that the artwork that Koyo says shows this aesthetic attachment that merely shows a shaping with a Shadow Dragon on it as concrete evidence that Shadow/Earth Dragons made that, because that contradicts what the lore now states. 

Kaga has established a lot of things, and IS can continue to use them. But any and all changes made into the new lores through remakes can and will take precedence over what Kaga previously established. 

No, YOU keep ignoring the case. Naga literally said herself that Falchion's TRUE might rivals her own. The term TRUE means that its the full power that Falchion's always held. Falchion's power was SEALED after the First Exalt, meaning that it's ALWAYS had the strength of the original Falchion Marth carried, the Awakening Ritual was to help Falchion be used to SEAL Grima. 

Why do you insist on ignoring what the dialogue clearly said? 

I don't recall ever saying that. You'll have to actually bring in the quote that said it, because in regards to the amiibo, I already told you about the case of Marth's Falchion being able to slay Grima and Duma, while Lucina's couldn't. And the fact that now Marth's Falchion is labeled as Exalted Falchion just strengthens my argument that the might of Marth's Falchion is still the same as Chrom's Falchion after the Awakening. 

Because there were absolutely no alternatives. Gotoh literally said that it's impossible to even SCRATCH Gharnef. Meaning that you cannot disprove it because in the end, Starlight WAS their only hope to stop Gharnef. 

Ced literally said that his Holy Weapon, the Forseti, stood NO chance against the Lopt Sword. The Lopt Sword was already stated to have been made using dark magic by the Lopt Sect. And Blaggi's Sword that counters it is a weapon named after Blaggi, meaning that he likely created that weapon. Blaggi is not even Naga's blood, but he created a weapon that could beat the Lopt Sword. Once again, the point is that weapons are specifically designed to combat others existed. 

... *headdesks* That was literally something I said in the very beginning, but I had already retracted that claim. Did you REALLY not read anything I had written to you?

Lore says they were one Empire and Medeus being a Prince doesn't disprove that. Look up how Empires work, stuff like that does indeed happen in real empires.

You mean like how I was right about Dagons existing in Archanea.

New lore says the Fire Emblem in Awakening contains Naga's essence, during which point the function of the Fire Emblem has changed entirely. You can't say the original Fire Emblem was the same when everything shows the Fire Emblem has been altered by the time of Ylisse. Awakening Lore never stated the spheres were made from Naga.

Koya's artwork is canon, again, you repeatedly think you have the right to say what is canon and non canon. You barely know Fire Emblem Lore to begin with, let alone know of canonicity or decide what it entails. This is what I mean about you being a entitled brat without respect for the series.

Ok, now you've forgotten the meaning of the word, True. True doesn't mean it was always that might, it means at that point in time, that was the maximum amount of power that could be put in to the Falchion.

Just as the true speed of a car can be 100 MPH. Then after it is upgraded, its true speed is 268 MPH. Thus the statement true power of Falchion has no application to Marth's falchion.

You've declared DLC And Amiibo info non canon all the time, yet you cling to this to claim canonicity. Fates shows Marth's Falchion as different from Chrom's, while Echoes DLC isn't even consistent with weapons like Ragnell. Face it, the ghostly summons from amiibos in Echoes are simply non canon easter eggs put in for fun and have no basis in canon. 

That is true, because Gotoh and Marth had nothing that could scratch Imhullu.

Forseti does indeed not get past the defense from the Loptyr sword which is a lesser version of the Loptyr's tome's power. However Ced and the liberation did not have access to all holy weapons.

Naga had access to the Falchion when going to Jugdral. If Naga could've used the Falchion to defeat Loptyr, it would've been done.

There you go insulting people when you're blatantly ignored canon for over 10 pages. 

Everyone: Lore directly stated Naga's tome possesses people.

You: Duur, NonCanon!

19 minutes ago, Armagon said:

During the subject of whether Wyverns could use Wind Breath or whatever, you used Beriwck Saga as a reference.

Fair enough. It's worth pointing out that the Archanean Emprie didn't exist until FE3/12, so it's very likely that there was some diplomacy there with having Altea as part of the Empire. The same could be argued for the Divine Dragon Empire to include the other tribes.

Ehhh. It depends. Echoes' prologue has more dialogue than the entirety of Gaiden. Now, if IS tried remaking a game that had more story content such as Genealogy of the Holy War or Binding Blade, then there wouldn't be as much changes. Gaiden barely had a story, so IS took liberties when remaking the plot.

Ah ok. So it was an issue of localization then.

Apologies. I had never seen a Dagon in Thabes and there was nothing on the Echoes page that said they appeared there.

I think that's a different type of Wyvern. The Wyverns that the Dracoknights of Macedon ride appear to be a tamed breed, whereas the Wyverns that breath fire are the degenerated ones. It's like in real life, where there's tame horses and wild horses. Plus, Wyverns still appear in Awakening 2000 years later, and by then, it seems that all degenerated dragons had all died out, yet Wyverns still exist.

To be honest, there's no evidence to support that. It could've been a coincidence after all. I mean, i created the Dagon page over at the Wiki and when i said the thing about how they could've been inspired by the unused Sea Dragon Class, that particular line was removed because it was "speculation".

Berwick saga can show plans Kaga might've considered, but I never claimed it affected Fire Emblem canon. I was just using that to ponder if Kaga considered giving Wyverns, Wind breath.

No worries.

Well I think there is a difference between taking liberties and adding more plot elements not hinted at in original, then directly contradicting what is directly stated to be part of the universe.

A thing to consider is the Sea Dragon in FE3 also used Fire Dragon graphics as a placeholder and is again, a dragon based around both attacking with and occupying water. Echoes post game also directly re-used Guardians, another element of FE3 that was cut from the final game. This furthers the possibility that Dagons are a direct reference and no coincidence.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I did play FE12. But they said that all the Dragons used to be peaceful. One empire doesn't have to be the case where the dragons to live in harmony with one another. 

Because that's all that is mentioned are the Fire, Ice, Mage, Flying, Earth, and Divine Tribes. Unless another Tribe was specifically mentioned in the lore, those are the only tribes that existed. Also, you mentioned the case in Valentia. Well, that's Valentia. The dragons we are referring to are Archanean. We don't know the dragon history in Valentia and for all we know, there might have been some tribes there, but we don't know for certain.

That's not insulting Kaga's work or Kaga himself. It's stating a fact. Kaga really has no control over the lore anymore. Before, FE2 had seemed to make no real mention that Duma and Mila are dragons, but actual gods. Echoes now shows they are actually dragons. If Kaga said that they aren't supposed to be dragons, do you think what he says would go? No, it wouldn't, because he no longer owns the rights to Fire Emblem. Hell, he got sued because the TearRing Saga had Fire Emblem stuff in it. That's already saying that Kaga's not in charge. I am not trying to be rude to him, but its the truth. 

I don't deny that I have thrown some insults. I literally said that I called you petty at one point, and I also did say that you're a fanboy as well. But you've gone really low with that last ridiculous post of yours by calling me a troll, claiming I had hijacked a thread when that was never my desire or intention, calling me a fanboy in a manner of insult (which I admit is something I retaliated by calling you one as well), claiming that I hate the older games, and also insulting me as a writer. 

Actually the Dagon (water dragons) primarily appear in Archanea in Shadows of Valentia. I think you can fight them in Valentia by getting a rare encounter but primarily they appear in the Thabes labyrinth and the seaway to Archanea. So taking it there's at least one dragon tribe living on the continent that wasn't mentioned in the previous games, it's not a major leap in logic to assume there could be others that are either extinct or just in remote locations we haven't seen. IS will throw out new designs and ideas whenever they can after all so the idea of the tribes being static is just very limiting. I wouldn't be surprised if they throw an Astral dragon into Archanea in a future game to explain the Starsphere. I now realise the Dagons in Archanea point has already been brought up but in my defense, you guys are posting like really quickly.

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

Out of curiosity, i went and searched for dragons in the Gaiden script. And the only times dragons were ever mentioned in the original Gaiden script were either when the game referred to Necrodragons or when the game referred to the Dragon Shrine. That's it. So yeah, the original Gaiden very much suggested that Duma and Mila were actual Gods. And since Kaga made the game, then he technically said or at least implied that Duma and Mila are Gods.

I still have this on hand so I might as well use.

Doma might not ever be directly referred to as a dragon, but he does have some definite dragon influences in his design, and does hang out with seemingly living dragons in his lair (and also possess a human form like Manaketes).

33 minutes ago, Armagon said:

During the subject of whether Wyverns could use Wind Breath or whatever, you used Beriwck Saga as a reference.

Fair enough. It's worth pointing out that the Archanean Emprie didn't exist until FE3/12, so it's very likely that there was some diplomacy there with having Altea as part of the Empire. The same could be argued for the Divine Dragon Empire to include the other tribes.

Ehhh. It depends. Echoes' prologue has more dialogue than the entirety of Gaiden. Now, if IS tried remaking a game that had more story content such as Genealogy of the Holy War or Binding Blade, then there wouldn't be as much changes. Gaiden barely had a story, so IS took liberties when remaking the plot.

Ah ok. So it was an issue of localization then.

Apologies. I had never seen a Dagon in Thabes and there was nothing on the Echoes page that said they appeared there.

I think that's a different type of Wyvern. The Wyverns that the Dracoknights of Macedon ride appear to be a tamed breed, whereas the Wyverns that breath fire are the degenerated ones. It's like in real life, where there's tame horses and wild horses. Plus, Wyverns still appear in Awakening 2000 years later, and by then, it seems that all degenerated dragons had all died out, yet Wyverns still exist.

To be honest, there's no evidence to support that. It could've been a coincidence after all. I mean, i created the Dagon page over at the Wiki and when i said the thing about how they could've been inspired by the unused Sea Dragon Class, that particular line was removed because it was "speculation".

On a wiki it's generally better to say something more along the lines of "Shares a resemblance to the unused class". That brings up the connection but doesn't actually make any definitive statement on it.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Lore says they were one Empire and Medeus being a Prince doesn't disprove that. Look up how Empires work, stuff like that does indeed happen in real empires.

... Sigh... where is this going? This is so stupid that I cannot believe we're still on about this.

First you say that Altea being part of Archanean Empire means that your theory is just. Then when I said that Altea is independent, you now ignore that, and go back to saying that the lore saying that the dragons being one empire again, which both Armagon and I have pointed out isn't the case already.

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You mean like how I was right about Dagons existing in Archanea.

Dagon's existing only proves that IS beginning to make new dragon tribes. How does this in any way support the fact that Forseti is a Wind Dragon when we have yet to see one? I'm so lost on what the purpose of this particular topic is now. 

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

New lore says the Fire Emblem in Awakening contains Naga's essence, during which point the function of the Fire Emblem has changed entirely. You can't say the original Fire Emblem was the same when everything shows the Fire Emblem has been altered by the time of Ylisse. Awakening Lore never stated the spheres were made from Naga.

Nor can you say that this is definitely the case of the functions of the Fire Emblem changing either. Maybe the Gemstones did change 1000 years after Marth, or maybe this has always been the case. But you have zero evidence to prove that this is purely on the case of the First Exalt. Because none of us know precisely what happened in the time of the First Exalt. But all I need is to say that the Gemstones are said to be holding Naga's power, and that's already evidence in itself. Your counters toward it aren't as effective because you're relying on a theory that was never gone into detail.

9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Ok, now you've forgotten the meaning of the word, True. True doesn't mean it was always that might, it means at that point in time, that was the maximum amount of power that could be put in to the Falchion.

Just as the true speed of a car can be 100 MPH. Then after it is upgraded, its true speed is 268 MPH. Thus the statement true power of Falchion has no application to Marth's falchion.

Which contradicts the evidence on Marth's Einherjar being able to wield all forms of Falchion, and amiibo Marth's Falchion being called Exalted Falchion. Once again, the case is right there. Furthermore, given how powerful Falchion is depicted in Valentia, it just goes to show that the Falchion Marth wields would be just as powerful as well.

And again, despite how Marth and Alm can defeat Duma and Grima with their Falchion, Lucina cannot. It's to show that Lucina's Parallel Falchion, that never unlocked its true power, isn't able to command the same might as Marth's Falchion.

13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You've declared DLC And Amiibo info non canon all the time, yet you cling to this to claim canonicity. Fates shows Marth's Falchion as different from Chrom's, while Echoes DLC isn't even consistent with weapons like Ragnell. Face it, the ghostly summons from amiibos in Echoes are simply non canon easter eggs put in for fun and have no basis in canon. 

Oh now I see. Are you kidding me?! 

I NEVER said that all DLC were noncanon. Don't start making stuff up. I explicitly stated that DLC that has no storyline dialogue of the dungeon only level in the DLC where you get the Starshards are noncanon. I never once said that all DLC are non canon. As for the amiibos, they may be purely a gameplay feature, but the very fact that Marth's amiibo that can defeat Duma and Grima when Lucina, who carries literally the SAME Falchion, cannot, it already explains that Marth's Falchion is superior because Lucina never unlocked her Falchion's true might.

17 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That is true, because Gotoh and Marth had nothing that could scratch Imhullu.

Because nothing BUT Starlight could. 

18 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Forseti does indeed not get past the defense from the Loptyr sword which is a lesser version of the Loptyr's tome's power. However Ced and the liberation did not have access to all holy weapons.

It may have been named after Loptyr, but it's unsure if it was actually forged from Loptyr's power. It was just said to be made by using dark magic. Ced had full use of Forseti tome, but stood no chance. And again, the only method to stop him was Blaggi Sword, a weapon blessed by Blaggi. That's already strange because Loptyr can only be stopped by Naga, but here the Loptyr Sword is stopped by Blaggi. Why? Because Blaggi Sword was designed to counter the Loptyr Sword. 

21 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga had access to the Falchion when going to Jugdral. If Naga could've used the Falchion to defeat Loptyr, it would've been done.

There you go insulting people when you're blatantly ignored canon for over 10 pages. 

Everyone: Lore directly stated Naga's tome possesses people.

You: Duur, NonCanon!

... Sigh... Hardin, did you LITERALLY miss the point I had made regarding Starlight, Blaggi Sword, etc? Really?

The Book of Naga was EXPLICITLY DESIGNED to combat Loptyr. Jotari pointed out that Galle was a human possessed by a dragon, and the Falchion was intended to be used against dragons. Naga didn't use Falchion because it might not work on Loptyr's tome because she designed the weapon to counter dragons. Maybe Falchion could have worked still, maybe it couldn't, but the point is that she made the Book of Naga to specifically counter Loptyr. 

You're still on the case of the will, but I haven't even been saying anything against that anymore. I retracted that remark as well. It all makes sense and I'll even show Kaga's comment for you:

"A: Loputousu, Narga and Holsety held different positions compared to the other dragons. Loputousu’s plan was obvious – “to use Bishop Galle to wreak vengeance on the humans”, which is why he formed a blood pact with Galle. The holy dark tome Loputousu contained Loputousu’s overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans, and was able to control the human who broke its seal (namely Bishop Galle’s descendants, those who inherited large amounts of the original pact-former’s blood). So it was, a human who possessed Loputousu’s strength and will was born. (The final boss of Genealogy of the Holy War was his victim.) In resistance, Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim. For Narga, who had always disliked interfering with the human world, this was a very worrying decision."

Loptyr's tome and the possession is how both his will and power are within a human. Falchion was designed to counter dragons in the end, not humans possessed by dragons. Even if it could be used as a normal weapon to stab Galle, it wouldn't be as effective. So in order to counter that, Naga made a tome containing her own will and power, just like how Starlight and Blaggi sword were made to counter Imhullu and Loptyr Sword respectively. 

And that is why Naga created the Book of Naga instead of using or creating Falchion for it.

[omegaxis1]

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Actually the Dagon (water dragons) primarily appear in Archanea in Shadows of Valentia. I think you can fight them in Valentia by getting a rare encounter but primarily they appear in the Thabes labyrinth and the seaway to Archanea. So taking it there's at least one dragon tribe living on the continent that wasn't mentioned in the previous games, it's not a major leap in logic to assume there could be others that are either extinct or just in remote locations we haven't seen. IS will throw out new designs and ideas whenever they can after all so the idea of the tribes being static is just very limiting. I wouldn't be surprised if they throw an Astral dragon into Archanea in a future game to explain the Starsphere. I now realise the Dagons in Archanea point has already been brought up but in my defense, you guys are posting like really quickly.

Like I said, this is likely a case of new dragons or tribes being created now. Before they never even existed. Now they do. Also, I never encountered on in my playthrough or actually got to the Labyrinth of Thabes yet since I'm just messing around with quests and DLC.

I seriously HOPE there's no Astral Dragon. We don't need to connect Fates into this.

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I still have this on hand so I might as well use.

Doma might not ever be directly referred to as a dragon, but he does have some definite dragon influences in his design, and does hang out with seemingly living dragons in his lair (and also possess a human form like Manaketes).

Fair enough. It's possible that, in the original Gaiden, Duma was the OG Anankos. By that, i mean Duma (and by extension, Mila) was both a Dragon and an actual God. But of course, it's Gaiden, so who knows.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Because there were absolutely no alternatives. Gotoh literally said that it's impossible to even SCRATCH Gharnef. Meaning that you cannot disprove it because in the end, Starlight WAS their only hope to stop Gharnef. 

Ced literally said that his Holy Weapon, the Forseti, stood NO chance against the Lopt Sword. The Lopt Sword was already stated to have been made using dark magic by the Lopt Sect. And Blaggi's Sword that counters it is a weapon named after Blaggi, meaning that he likely created that weapon. Blaggi is not even Naga's blood, but he created a weapon that could beat the Lopt Sword. Once again, the point is that weapons are specifically designed to combat others existed.

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That is true, because Gotoh and Marth had nothing that could scratch Imhullu.

Forseti does indeed not get past the defense from the Loptyr sword which is a lesser version of the Loptyr's tome's power. However Ced and the liberation did not have access to all holy weapons

Ok, i think we need to clear up this whole thing about Imhullu, Lopytr (Tome), Lopto Sword, whatever.

Imhullu: "Nullifies damage from all weapons, with the exception of Starlight." -in-game description from Shadow Dragon and New Mystery (and FE1/3)

Lopytr (Tome): "Halves enemy attack before defense-related stats are applied." -in-game description from Genealogy of the Holy War.

Lopto Sword: "Allows its wielder to half the attack power of his enemies." -in-game description from Thracia 776

Regarding Imhullu, literally nothing can beat it with the exception of Starlight. Even Marth armed with the Falchion can't beat Imhullu. The only one who can is a mage who can use Starlight. The in-game description of Imhullu says this. So it's not that Gotoh and Marth had nothing that could scratch Imhullu, it's that literally nothing in the world can, with the sole exception of Starlight. 

Regarding the Lopytr Tome and Lopto Sword, what they do is halve damage. So it's technically possible to beat them without the Book of Naga and Blaggi Sword respectively. However, having the Book of Naga and Blaggi Sword would make things much, much easier. So even if the Liberation had access to all the Holy Weapons, they could technically defeat the Lopto Sword, however, having the Blaggi Sword would just make things much easier. And what makes the Blaggi Sword unique is that, you can use it as long as you have even drop of Holy Blood. It's not like the other Holy Weapons where you need a specific type of Major Holy Blood to use them. Thus, having the Blaggi Sword would not only make things easier against the Lopto Sword, but also more efficient, because there's a bigger pool of potential candidates that can use the Blaggi Sword.

The Blaggi Sword and the Book of Naga aren't the only hope against the Lopytr Tome and Lopto Sword. The more accurate thing to say is, the Blaggi Sword and Book of Naga are the best hope.

 

 

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Fair enough. It's possible that, in the original Gaiden, Duma was the OG Anankos. By that, i mean Duma (and by extension, Mila) was both a Dragon and an actual God. But of course, it's Gaiden, so who knows.

Ok, i think we need to clear up this whole thing about Imhullu, Lopytr (Tome), Lopto Sword, whatever.

Imhullu: "Nullifies damage from all weapons, with the exception of Starlight." -in-game description from Shadow Dragon and New Mystery (and FE1/3)

Lopytr (Tome): "Halves enemy attack before defense-related stats are applied." -in-game description from Genealogy of the Holy War.

Lopto Sword: "Allows its wielder to half the attack power of his enemies." -in-game description from Thracia 776

Regarding Imhullu, literally nothing can beat it with the exception of Starlight. Even Marth armed with the Falchion can't beat Imhullu. The only one who can is a mage who can use Starlight. The in-game description of Imhullu says this. So it's not that Gotoh and Marth had nothing that could scratch Imhullu, it's that literally nothing in the world can, with the sole exception of Starlight. 

Regarding the Lopytr Tome and Lopto Sword, what they do is halve damage. So it's technically possible to beat them without the Book of Naga and Blaggi Sword respectively. However, having the Book of Naga and Blaggi Sword would make things much, much easier. So even if the Liberation had access to all the Holy Weapons, they could technically defeat the Lopto Sword, however, having the Blaggi Sword would just make things much easier. And what makes the Blaggi Sword unique is that, you can use it as long as you have even drop of Holy Blood. It's not like the other Holy Weapons where you need a specific type of Major Holy Blood to use them. Thus, having the Blaggi Sword would not only make things easier against the Lopto Sword, but also more efficient, because there's a bigger pool of potential candidates that can use the Blaggi Sword.

The Blaggi Sword and the Book of Naga aren't the only hope against the Lopytr Tome and Lopto Sword. The more accurate thing to say is, the Blaggi Sword and Book of Naga are the best hope.

While yes you have a point in that regard, storywise it goes that Loptyr's tome is so powerful that its unlikely that they can be beaten without Naga's tome. With Loptyr sword, Saias remarks that the Blaggi sword is the only way to kill Rayrik. As for the case of Marth armed with Falchion, wanna point out that Marth technically never gets Falchion before Gharnef is already killed, since Falchion is always held by Gharnef and he has to die to get it. But yeah, even if Marth had Falchion, he wouldn't be able to kill Gharnef with it.

Imhullu is virtually the ONLY weapon that lives up to the "invincibility" function from the story into the gameplay. 

[Emperor Hardin]

42 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

... Sigh... where is this going? This is so stupid that I cannot believe we're still on about this.

First you say that Altea being part of Archanean Empire means that your theory is just. Then when I said that Altea is independent, you now ignore that, and go back to saying that the lore saying that the dragons being one empire again, which both Armagon and I have pointed out isn't the case already.

Dagon's existing only proves that IS beginning to make new dragon tribes. How does this in any way support the fact that Forseti is a Wind Dragon when we have yet to see one? I'm so lost on what the purpose of this particular topic is now. 

Nor can you say that this is definitely the case of the functions of the Fire Emblem changing either. Maybe the Gemstones did change 1000 years after Marth, or maybe this has always been the case. But you have zero evidence to prove that this is purely on the case of the First Exalt. Because none of us know precisely what happened in the time of the First Exalt. But all I need is to say that the Gemstones are said to be holding Naga's power, and that's already evidence in itself. Your counters toward it aren't as effective because you're relying on a theory that was never gone into detail.

Which contradicts the evidence on Marth's Einherjar being able to wield all forms of Falchion, and amiibo Marth's Falchion being called Exalted Falchion. Once again, the case is right there. Furthermore, given how powerful Falchion is depicted in Valentia, it just goes to show that the Falchion Marth wields would be just as powerful as well.

And again, despite how Marth and Alm can defeat Duma and Grima with their Falchion, Lucina cannot. It's to show that Lucina's Parallel Falchion, that never unlocked its true power, isn't able to command the same might as Marth's Falchion.

Oh now I see. Are you kidding me?! 

I NEVER said that all DLC were noncanon. Don't start making stuff up. I explicitly stated that DLC that has no storyline dialogue of the dungeon only level in the DLC where you get the Starshards are noncanon. I never once said that all DLC are non canon. As for the amiibos, they may be purely a gameplay feature, but the very fact that Marth's amiibo that can defeat Duma and Grima when Lucina, who carries literally the SAME Falchion, cannot, it already explains that Marth's Falchion is superior because Lucina never unlocked her Falchion's true might.

Because nothing BUT Starlight could. 

It may have been named after Loptyr, but it's unsure if it was actually forged from Loptyr's power. It was just said to be made by using dark magic. Ced had full use of Forseti tome, but stood no chance. And again, the only method to stop him was Blaggi Sword, a weapon blessed by Blaggi. That's already strange because Loptyr can only be stopped by Naga, but here the Loptyr Sword is stopped by Blaggi. Why? Because Blaggi Sword was designed to counter the Loptyr Sword. 

... Sigh... Hardin, did you LITERALLY miss the point I had made regarding Starlight, Blaggi Sword, etc? Really?

The Book of Naga was EXPLICITLY DESIGNED to combat Loptyr. Jotari pointed out that Galle was a human possessed by a dragon, and the Falchion was intended to be used against dragons. Naga didn't use Falchion because it might not work on Loptyr's tome because she designed the weapon to counter dragons. Maybe Falchion could have worked still, maybe it couldn't, but the point is that she made the Book of Naga to specifically counter Loptyr. 

You're still on the case of the will, but I haven't even been saying anything against that anymore. I retracted that remark as well. It all makes sense and I'll even show Kaga's comment for you:

"A: Loputousu, Narga and Holsety held different positions compared to the other dragons. Loputousu’s plan was obvious – “to use Bishop Galle to wreak vengeance on the humans”, which is why he formed a blood pact with Galle. The holy dark tome Loputousu contained Loputousu’s overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans, and was able to control the human who broke its seal (namely Bishop Galle’s descendants, those who inherited large amounts of the original pact-former’s blood). So it was, a human who possessed Loputousu’s strength and will was born. (The final boss of Genealogy of the Holy War was his victim.) In resistance, Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim. For Narga, who had always disliked interfering with the human world, this was a very worrying decision."

Loptyr's tome and the possession is how both his will and power are within a human. Falchion was designed to counter dragons in the end, not humans possessed by dragons. Even if it could be used as a normal weapon to stab Galle, it wouldn't be as effective. So in order to counter that, Naga made a tome containing her own will and power, just like how Starlight and Blaggi sword were made to counter Imhullu and Loptyr Sword respectively. 

And that is why Naga created the Book of Naga instead of using or creating Falchion for it.

The timeline says Dragons were once one big empire, both the in game one and the ones in recent material like the Archanea. You cannot claim this isn't the case.

Again, you only have evidence that the Awakening era spheres hold Naga's powers. The Fire Emblem has changed function entirely at that point. As opposed to keeping dragons sealed and stabilizing, it now awakens Dragons and has no relationship with Tiki, who instead keeps it apart under the belief that its too much for anyone to have.

We've already seen the Falchion has had parts of its design altered and has been altered by a blood pact since Marth's days where anyone could use it. If anything, its far more of a stretch to say Falchion hasn't changed.

Dagons prove that other Dragon tribes exist, contrary to your statement that the FE3 dragons are the only ones that exist on Archanea. As mentioned, despite being monsters in gameplay due to being re-used assets from Dracozombies, Fafnirs are also counted as a dragon tribe.

You claim Amiibo and DLC is non canon except when it serves your purposes. Ragnell can't even do ranged attacks or defeat Duma, when in canon its capable of defeating the very gods.

Marth's amiibo in Echoes isn't even consistent with its portrayal in Fates, so again, you can't claim that as evidence.

You've labeled most DLC as non canon, saying only story DLC counts. Yet now you're claiming Echoes Amiibo's portrayals, which aren't even consistent with past depictions are canon. Again Ragnell has slain gods, yet the Echoes version can't even beat a Divine Dragon. Face it, Amiibo summons are not lore.

Your point being.

There you go insulting people again, I hope you aren't still going to claim you haven't insulted people.

Chances are the Loptyr sword was made from some of Loptyr's power, hence its connection to him and its powers being a weaker version of Imhullu. You could consider Loptyr's falchion.

And there you go fanboying over the Falchion again. If Falchion could've defeated Loptyr, Naga would've brought it.

Yes I agree a sword isn't an effective measure against a dragon tome possessed humans, but you still have no zero proof that the Falchion of Marth's era was as powerful as the book of Naga.

[Party Moth]

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

I think that's a different type of Wyvern. The Wyverns that the Dracoknights of Macedon ride appear to be a tamed breed, whereas the Wyverns that breath fire are the degenerated ones. It's like in real life, where there's tame horses and wild horses. Plus, Wyverns still appear in Awakening 2000 years later, and by then, it seems that all degenerated dragons had all died out, yet Wyverns still exist.

Considering that tamed and wild Wyverns really only have a physical disparity in the remakes, I would default to assuming that Iote tamed degenerated Wyverns rather than some weird subspecies that makes little sense to exist in Archanea. Then again, Wyverns are in Jugdral, which is a strange decision that's never really been explained. Awakening Wyverns could best be explained as being of the Jugdral variety, but then again it's not as if Awakening paid close attention to the old lore in general.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You claim Amiibo and DLC is non canon except when it serves your purposes. Ragnell can't even do ranged attacks or defeat Duma, when in canon its capable of defeating the very gods.

Nitpick, but Ragnell was only able to defeat Ashera after Yune put all her power into it for that final strike. If Yune was not there then it likely wouldn't have worked. That's pretty irrelevant though. I'm not sure what you two are even arguing over in regards to the Amiibo stuff. It's not really relevant to anything. Lucia's Falchion is weaker than Chrom's Exalted Falchion, that's not something you need DLC to know (and wether Marth's Falchion is as strong as Chrom's has absolutely no bearing on anything). Nor can I understand what matters in the slightest as to wether the Dragon era was made up of an empire or duchies. Naga can still do Naga's stuff and Medeus can still do his stuff regardless of their political set up.

1 hour ago, Party Moth said:

Considering that tamed and wild Wyverns really only have a physical disparity in the remakes, I would default to assuming that Iote tamed degenerated Wyverns rather than some weird subspecies that makes little sense to exist in Archanea. Then again, Wyverns are in Jugdral, which is a strange decision that's never really been explained. Awakening Wyverns could best be explained as being of the Jugdral variety, but then again it's not as if Awakening paid close attention to the old lore in general.

It is sort of weird but a subspecies seems to be what the remake is implying. In the original wild wyverns had the exact same sprite (minus the rider) but in New Mystery the Wyvern's look completely different. Having shorter necks, longer wings, different colouring and no spikes.  It's probably a result of the wyverns in Shadow Dragon being designed to look more like Draco Riders in the more modern games and then staying true to the basic design of wyverns in FE3 for the wild ones.

 One of the only fanfics I ever wrote was actually about the leader of the wyvern tribe who moved a portion of his species over to Jugdral to see if distance could stop the degradation, and in so doing discovered Loptyr was still alive. A pretty nice explanation that ties several things together I think.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Jotari

[RJWalker]

Wyvernsridden by Dracoknights are clearly supposed to be the same as the same as degenerated wyvern tribe dragons. Degenerated dragons should still be capable of breeding, yes? Any minor design differences in later games, I think we safely ignore those. Even Awakening keeps the standard wyvern design that's accurate to FE3 wyverns. As for the issue of tamed wyverns in Jugdral and Necrodragons (as Necrodragons clearly resemble Wyverns)in Valentia, well their excellent flight capablities are a key aspect, so they're the one tribe that would be capable of travelling these vast distances in huge numbers, even in their degenerated state. We can't say that no one else could have tamed these creatures. And maybe the ones in Valentia simply died off for whatever reason.

As for Fafnir and Dagons. Fafnir looks alive. It has intact eyes and it's body doesn't look decayed. I question how much thought we should give Fafnir since especially though since it might just be a "we need a stronger class of necrodragons" and not more than that. Dagons, well, maybe they're an underwater dwelling tribe of dragons that split off long ago and lost contact and simply degenerated completely due to them being cutoff from the knowledge about dragonstones.

[Armagon]

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

While yes you have a point in that regard, storywise it goes that Loptyr's tome is so powerful that its unlikely that they can be beaten without Naga's tome.

This translates to gameplay too. With a base might of 30, that shit's very powerful. Granted, all the other Holy Weapons have 30 base might as well, but with Lopytr's halving power, the Holy Weapons' base might gets reduced to 15. The Book of Naga is unaffected by that, and thus, is capable of taking on Lopytr with it's full power.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

We've already seen the Falchion has had parts of its design altered and has been altered by a blood pact since Marth's days where anyone could use it. If anything, its far more of a stretch to say Falchion hasn't changed.

In Marth's days, the only three people known to use Falchion were Anri, Cornelius, and Marth. All three were part of the Altean royal family, with Anri being the founder. Just going by that, i don't think just anyone could wield Falchion. I have a theory that Marth's family line possesses Naga blood but that's a whole can of worms that i'm not going to get into right now.

5 hours ago, RJWalker said:

Wyvernsridden by Dracoknights are clearly supposed to be the same as the same as degenerated wyvern tribe dragons. Degenerated dragons should still be capable of breeding, yes?

Degenerated Dragons can't breed. In fact, losing the ability to breed was one of the earliest signs of Dragon Degeneration. So if Wyverns have already degenerated, then how do they breed? The only anwser to that is that Wyverns ridden by Dracoknights are indeed a tamed sub-species.

[omegaxis1]

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The timeline says Dragons were once one big empire, both the in game one and the ones in recent material like the Archanea. You cannot claim this isn't the case.

Now you go right back to the first thing you said, but again, both Armagon and I explained to you that that makes no sense. If it was one single empire with the Divine Dragons as the supreme rulers, there would be absolutely no need for another imperial bloodline like that. Furthermore, the other Dragon Tribes are mentioned to already exist, and was never said to have been created when the degeneration happened. The fact that Earth Dragons and others adamantly refused to lose their powers despite it being commanded by the Divine Dragons just proves that the other tribes did have their own independence. 

So similar to Altea and the Archanean Empire, the Divine Dragon Tribe was the strongest, sure, but the other dragon tribes have their own land and territories and rights. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Again, you only have evidence that the Awakening era spheres hold Naga's powers. The Fire Emblem has changed function entirely at that point. As opposed to keeping dragons sealed and stabilizing, it now awakens Dragons and has no relationship with Tiki, who instead keeps it apart under the belief that its too much for anyone to have.

We've already seen the Falchion has had parts of its design altered and has been altered by a blood pact since Marth's days where anyone could use it. If anything, its far more of a stretch to say Falchion hasn't changed.

The Fire Emblem's functions changed, sure, but the Gemstones were never said to have the same case. They are said to hold Naga's power. Unless you can get the exact lore that happened in the time of the First Exalt, which literally doesn't exist, there is absolutely no concrete evidence anymore about the orbs origins saying that they were created by other dragon tribes. Furthermore, just to point something out, the very fact that the gemstones are supposed to be dragonstones makes it IMPOSSIBLE for Naga to have her essence overwrite it. If they are dragonstones, then they contain the power and essence of the dragons that forged it. Naga cannot just replace that essence with her own. Menaing that your Kaga released material that says they are dragonstones actually now can be used to support that Naga is likely the creator the orbs because they contain Naga's powers.

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Dagons prove that other Dragon tribes exist, contrary to your statement that the FE3 dragons are the only ones that exist on Archanea. As mentioned, despite being monsters in gameplay due to being re-used assets from Dracozombies, Fafnirs are also counted as a dragon tribe.

And your point? No serious, what was the point of this assertion? Even if Dagon's exist and can be considered a Dragon Tribe, what does that prove beyond the possibility of there being new tribes introduced? It doesn't prove anything regarding Forseti right now, does it? Does it prove that a Wind Dragon Tribe exists? No. Literally nothing about a Dagon existing disproves everything I said. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You claim Amiibo and DLC is non canon except when it serves your purposes. Ragnell can't even do ranged attacks or defeat Duma, when in canon its capable of defeating the very gods.

Marth's amiibo in Echoes isn't even consistent with its portrayal in Fates, so again, you can't claim that as evidence.

You've labeled most DLC as non canon, saying only story DLC counts. Yet now you're claiming Echoes Amiibo's portrayals, which aren't even consistent with past depictions are canon. Again Ragnell has slain gods, yet the Echoes version can't even beat a Divine Dragon. Face it, Amiibo summons are not lore.

Once again, you ignore literally what I said. You keep using arguments and twisting my words to suit your ends, yet you accuse me of doing that. First of all, I repeatedly said that DLC that have no storyline dialogue (ie. the dungeon exclusive DLC where you get the Starsphere shards) are the non canon things. I never once said that all DLC are noncanon. Stop insisting that that's what I said.

Furthermore, in the case of Ike, are you kidding me? Several points I wanna make to you:

1) Ragnell had NEVER slain a god. It's used to counter those that possess divine protection like the Black Knight's armor, but Ike never even killed Ashera. In fact, the only reason that Ike was able to defeat Ashera with Ragnell was because Yune placed all her power into Ragnell. The case of it being able to slay actual gods is actually incorrect. 

2) Ike and Ragnell are literally from a different universe and is a weapon that had a different purpose altogether. It isn't anything like the Binding Blade or Falchion, that are SPECIFICALLY engineered to slay dragons, which Duma is. That's why Roy is the only other character that can slay Duma and Grima. 

3) What the hell does Marth's amiibo in Fates have ANYTHING to do with the amiibo in Echoes? In Fates, its a recruitable character from Super Smash Bros, like Ike, Lucina, and Robin are. In Echoes, they are phantoms created using Mila's Turnwheel. This and that are completely different from one another, and once agian, Fates is a different universe from Archanea. 

4) Lucina's Falchion and Marth's are the SAME Falchion. By all accounts, Lucina SHOULD have been able to slay Duma and Grima in the game, but they can't. Why? Because they carry an incomplete Falchion, whereas Marth wields the complete Falchion's power, hence why it's even called EXALTED Falchion. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Your point being.

My point being is that specific weapons are always there to provide specific counters. Forseti saying that Naga's tome is the "only hope" to defeat Loptyr is EXACTLY the same as Gotoh saying that Starlight is the "only hope" for defeating Gharnef. Meaning that the case of "only hope" has absolutely NOTHING to do with power, but functions. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Chances are the Loptyr sword was made from some of Loptyr's power, hence its connection to him and its powers being a weaker version of Imhullu. You could consider Loptyr's falchion.

There is absolutely zero evidence that suggests that it was made from Loptyr's power. It's named after Loptyr, but was created using dark magic by the Lopto Sect. There's no evidence to suggest that Loptyr himself created that sword. But even if that were the case and Loptyr had a hand in making it, that just strengthens the case of how Blaggi Sword, that was forged by Blaggi or blessed by him, being able to defeat the Lopt Sword despite how the true Holy Weapon, Forseti, couldn't, once more proves that despite the power of the weapons, the specific weapons made to counter the powerful weapons are literally the same case as Imhullu vs Starlight and Book of Naga vs Loptyr Tome.

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There you go insulting people again, I hope you aren't still going to claim you haven't insulted people.

Because you're repeatedly ignoring me and what I'm saying and making all these random things and clinging to stuff just to try and prove me wrong. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

And there you go fanboying over the Falchion again. If Falchion could've defeated Loptyr, Naga would've brought it.

Yes I agree a sword isn't an effective measure against a dragon tome possessed humans, but you still have no zero proof that the Falchion of Marth's era was as powerful as the book of Naga.

The proof is ALREADY in the new lore through Awakening Naga saying that Falchion's true might rivals her own and now with Echoes showing its Falchion. The Archanean Falchion would be just as powerful as the Valentian Falchion, but Naga didn't bring it because it would be more or less a normal weapon against the might of Loptyr's tome because his powerful will is mixed into his power. To counter that, Naga needed to place her own will to counter Loptyr's will so her power can be used to defeat him. Because Falchion doesn't contain her will, even if it had just as much power as the Book of Naga, it wouldn't be able to counteract the will of Loptyr. 

If you read what Kaga said when he's explaining how Loptyr's tome functions, you realize that Kaga was actually telling us that the Book of Naga was specifically DESIGNED to defeat Loptyr. 

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Degenerated Dragons can't breed. In fact, losing the ability to breed was one of the earliest signs of Dragon Degeneration. So if Wyverns have already degenerated, then how do they breed? The only anwser to that is that Wyverns ridden by Dracoknights are indeed a tamed sub-species.

Actually, I think the reason that Wyverns still continue to be able to breed and live on is because the degeneration might not have affected them as strongly. The Flying Tribe are Wyverns, but they are arguably the weakest of the Dragon Tribes. The degeneration is something that goes that the dragon's own power destroys them, hence why becoming Manaketes was the solution, as they SEALED their dragon powers into stone. 

Even if many Wyverns lost their minds and became raging beasts, some Wyverns likely weren't affected as strongly, and thus they were able to escape the full effects of the degeneration. 

[RedRob]

I thought Dragons could still breed, it's just that their fertility drastically decreased, limiting their ability to repopulate. Not that they went full on sterile.

Edited June 21, 2017 by RedRob

[omegaxis1]

27 minutes ago, RedRob said:

I thought Dragons could still breed, it's just that their fertility drastically decreased, limiting their ability to repopulate. Not that they went full on sterile.

No, it seems to indicate that Tiki had been the last Dragon to ever be born and all the other dragons seems to have lost that ability. However, thousands of years later, Nowi is born, likely as a Divine Dragon, making her the last living full blooded Manakete. Any Manaketes born after are half breeds.

[TheWerdna]

On 6/21/2017 at 11:18 AM, omegaxis1 said:

's functions changed, sure, but the Gemstones were never said to have the same case. They are said to hold Naga's power. Unless you can get the exact lore that happened in the time of the First Exalt, which literally doesn't exist, there is absolutely no concrete evidence anymore about the orbs origins saying that they were created by other dragon tribes. Furthermore, just to point something out, the very fact that the gemstones are supposed to be dragonstones makes it IMPOSSIBLE for Naga to have her essence overwrite it. If they are dragonstones, then they contain the power and essence of the dragons that forged it. Naga cannot just replace that essence with her own. Menaing that your Kaga released material that says they are dragonstones actually now can be used to support that Naga is likely the creator the orbs because they contain Naga's powers.
 

At this point this entire argument regarding the gemstones is really pointless, since both you and Hardin's views are equally valid at this point due to the complete lack of evidence pointing either way. On one hand, yes, you are correct, the game never gives an indication that the Gemstones holding Naga's power was a change that happened and very well might be a retcon Awakening made to the series. On the other hand, Hardin is right in that it would make complete sense if when the Fire Emblem was re purposed for the Awakening ritual Naga also heavily modified to the gemstones, perhaps infusing them with more of her personal power. Point is, until we actually get official answers on this, both views are purely speculation, since in the end of the day, the actual "canon" answer is "fucked if we know"

 

On 6/21/2017 at 0:32 PM, omegaxis1 said:

No, it seems to indicate that Tiki had been the last Dragon to ever be born and all the other dragons seems to have lost that ability. However, thousands of years later, Nowi is born, likely as a Divine Dragon, making her the last living full blooded Manakete. Any Manaketes born after are half breeds.

Problem with this: Nowi. She is only 1000 years old and had two dragon parents. Thus its likely that only completely degenerated dragons are infertile. Also, its entirely possible that dragons always had a super low fertility rate to begin with: as before they were functionally immortal. Becoming mortal as Manaketes could have easily meant that now their death rate outpaces their l birth rate.

In fact, this seems to be very much a retcon made regarding the old lore

Yes I agree a sword isn't an effective measure against a dragon tome possessed humans, but you still have no zero proof that the Falchion of Marth's era was as powerful as the book of Naga.

 

Granted, as with the whole gemstone thing, we literally have no idea if Awakening era Falchion is actually stronger or weaker than Shadow Dragon era Falchion, since in the end of the day there is no official word on that. That said, I am of the belief that the Awakening era Falchion is stronger, simply due to the fact the Awakening ritual was devised at all. Seems like it makes most sense if Grima was basically so strong that just using Falchion to kill him and the Fire Emblem to seal him after wasn't going to cut it, so the ritual was devised as a way to super charge Falchion. Thus the Exalted Falchion's power would be closer to the power of normal Falchion plus the power of the Fire Emblem.

So it is entire possible for Falchion < Book of Naga < Falchion + Fire Emblem to be true. Then again it might not be, because once again the canon answer is "we have no goddamned idea"

Edited June 24, 2017 by TheWerdna

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

Granted, as with the whole gemstone thing, we literally have no idea if Awakening era Falchion is actually stronger or weaker than Shadow Dragon era Falchion, since in the end of the day there is no official word on that. That said, I am of the belief that the Awakening era Falchion is stronger, simply due to the fact the Awakening ritual was devised at all. Seems like it makes most sense if Grima was basically so strong that just using Falchion to kill him and the Fire Emblem to seal him after wasn't going to cut it, so the ritual was devised as a way to super charge Falchion. Thus the Exalted Falchion's power would be closer to the power of normal Falchion plus the power of the Fire Emblem.

So it is entire possible for Falchion < Book of Naga < Falchion + Fire Emblem to be true. Then again it might not be, because once again the canon answer is "we have no goddamned idea"

While that could have been the case, the reason I think that Falchion's might itself never changed is because the Awakening Ritual performed the first time was a process that placed all the powers of sealing from the Shield of Seals into Falchion. It didn't increase the power, but rather gave it the ability to seal others away, namely Grima. Naga did explain that it was impossible for Naga to kill Grima, so since Falchion couldn't kill Grima, it was best to switch to sealing him. Add in the fact that Grima can only be sealed after he's been weakened, then placing the power to seal into Falchion that could hurt him adds to the effect. 

16 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

Problem with this: Nowi. She is only 1000 years old and had two dragon parents. Thus its likely that only completely degenerated dragons are infertile. Also, its entirely possible that dragons always had a super low fertility rate to begin with: as before they were functionally immortal. Becoming mortal as Manaketes could have easily meant that now their death rate outpaces their l birth rate.

In fact, this seems to be very much a retcon made regarding the old lore

Like how Duma and Mila, Divine Dragons that can assume human form, but doesn't seem to truly be Manaketes given how Mila still has her wings out in human form and can release so much power, and it took until several thousand years before degeneration finally took hold of them, when every other non-Manakete went insane. 

But that is true. if the dragons ended up feeling virtually immortal, the point of having kids is not really necessary. It is possible that assuming Manakete form and avoiding degeneration has possibly weakened the infertility rates, thus after enough time passed, they could mate once more. Though Wyverns had it better since their weaker power let them survive extinction.

It's almost ironic. The saying always goes the strong live and the weak die. Wyverns are the weakest dragons, and they outlived even the Divine Dragons. 

 

[RJWalker]

Wyverns are not weaker than other dragons except Divine and Earth.

Especially in gameplay where they're a nightmare.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, RJWalker said:

Wyverns are not weaker than other dragons except Divine and Earth.

Especially in gameplay where they're a nightmare.

I dunno. It feels like the story was going by how they were the weakest of the dragon tribes. The very fact that they haven't gone extinct when the others clearly have or are near to, it shows that Wyverns weren't fully affected by the degeneration. Degeneration seemed to indicate stemmed from the power of dragons, hence why Manaketes were formed, as you seal all that power away. If Wyverns ended up not being affected so strongly by the degenerations, except for the fact that they are feral still, it explains how they could live on in the end. 

[Dragrath]

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I dunno. It feels like the story was going by how they were the weakest of the dragon tribes. The very fact that they haven't gone extinct when the others clearly have or are near to, it shows that Wyverns weren't fully affected by the degeneration. Degeneration seemed to indicate stemmed from the power of dragons, hence why Manaketes were formed, as you seal all that power away. If Wyverns ended up not being affected so strongly by the degenerations, except for the fact that they are feral still, it explains how they could live on in the end. 

Before looking at this thread I had assumed it was because they degenerated into wild animals more or less that they stayed able to reproduce but really this bit seems to be one of those lore details that has either been intentionally dropped for them or retconned considering it seems to be a perfect example of "Writing yourself into a hole"

Lorewise their best bet to deal with these kinda details is to  actually come up with what triggered the degeneration in the first place as we still don't know the underlying mechanics of it.

So it might be the degeneration signs are akin to primitive diagnosis. i.e. you have a set of typical symptoms but they can vary in how they appear.

But that said The similarity of the species that formed the Necrodragons and Wyverns might very well be the same tribe with far larger numbers and a global distribution.

Perhaps they were the "insects" of the dragon tribes producing lots of weak offspring instead of a few strong offspring. Thus the hit from degeneration was insufficient to remove there reproduction? 

From what we have seen would it be ok to hypothesize that the more magical the dragon the harder they seem to have been hit by degeneracy?

My personal speculation/headcanon is that perhaps wyverns are more like the Ancestral line of dragons that never really ventured deeply into magic and thus came out relatively unscathed when whatever unexplained plot device caused degeneracy.

But really anything in this department seems to be grasping for straws from a canon that has been trying to work their way around the literary hole they worked themselves into lorewise.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

While that could have been the case, the reason I think that Falchion's might itself never changed is because the Awakening Ritual performed the first time was a process that placed all the powers of sealing from the Shield of Seals into Falchion. It didn't increase the power, but rather gave it the ability to seal others away, namely Grima. Naga did explain that it was impossible for Naga to kill Grima, so since Falchion couldn't kill Grima, it was best to switch to sealing him. Add in the fact that Grima can only be sealed after he's been weakened, then placing the power to seal into Falchion that could hurt him adds to the effect. 

Like how Duma and Mila, Divine Dragons that can assume human form, but doesn't seem to truly be Manaketes given how Mila still has her wings out in human form and can release so much power, and it took until several thousand years before degeneration finally took hold of them, when every other non-Manakete went insane. 

But that is true. if the dragons ended up feeling virtually immortal, the point of having kids is not really necessary. It is possible that assuming Manakete form and avoiding degeneration has possibly weakened the infertility rates, thus after enough time passed, they could mate once more. Though Wyverns had it better since their weaker power let them survive extinction.

It's almost ironic. The saying always goes the strong live and the weak die. Wyverns are the weakest dragons, and they outlived even the Divine Dragons. 

 

A lot of manatees have wings in human form. I don't think that can be taken as an indicator of anything.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Jotari

[Baldrick]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

A lot of manatees have wings in human form. I don't think that can be taken as an indicator of anything.

You mean parakeets, right?

[omegaxis1]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

A lot of manatees have wings in human form. I don't think that can be taken as an indicator of anything.

I mentioned how they have a lot of power as well. They don't need to assume dragon form to access their powers. Also they were exiled from the tribe BEFORE the degeneration kicked in, meaning they were never even aware of how Dragons were told to seal their power in stone. Not sure if Mila and Duma were ever given the memo in Valentia.